How to Motivate Yourself (and Others) to Change Any Behavior

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Have you ever had one of those days where you wish you had a magic wand? You know, you could just point it at the people that you love and wave the wand at them, and boom, they would change. Suddenly, the person that you're dating or married to or one of your kids or maybe one of your parents would magically become the person that you would love for them to be. Suddenly they turn off the TV and head to the gym or they're doing the dishes without being asked. They're not only looking for a new job, they've found the job. Stop overspending. Drink less. They're more exciting in the bedroom.

Mel Robbins: Well, today you're going to learn that you don't need a magic wand because the number one neuroscientist from MIT and University College London is here to teach you how to make other people change. I am so glad that you tuned in today. I'm Mel. I'm so excited about this conversation because you and I are going to be learning from a world-renowned neuroscientist whose research focuses on how you can change other people's behaviors and opinions.

Mel Robbins: And you know how I always say that you should share these episodes with the people that you love? Well, this one you are really going to want to share because you're going to learn why guilt, pressure, fear, crying, pleading, threats, ultimatums are not working with the people in your life and they're not working when the people in your life use them on you. And there's a scientific reason why. By the end of this episode, you're gonna understand exactly what to do to motivate someone and yourself to change any behavior.

Mel Robbins: And our expert is also here with brand new research that will convince you that change is not just a part of life. Change is an essential part of your life because it is connected to your happiness and joy. Dr. Tali Sharot is a behavioral neuroscientist and the director of the Affective Brain Lab at University College London. Her research integrates neuroscience, behavioral economics, and psychology to study how emotion and motivation influences people's beliefs and decisions. She's also a professor at both University College London and here in Boston at MIT. And she's also the bestselling author of three books, including the brand new book, *Look Again*. Dr. Tali Sharot, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast.

Dr. Tali Sharot: I am so excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Mel Robbins: I was super excited to have you come on because every single one of us has somebody in our lives that we love, but we would love to have them change, whether it's to have them be healthier and exercise more or be better with money or maybe clean up after themselves or get motivated and find another job. And no amount of pressure or wanting or wishing is working, at least not in my marriage. So I'm just gonna paint a scenario for you so that everybody who's listening, whether they're dealing with the situation or not, can start to apply it to that dynamic.

Mel Robbins: So let's just say you have somebody that you love and they're sitting on the couch and it's a Sunday afternoon and they're happily watching golf. And as you see them sitting there, you feel this judgment and frustration rise in your body and you start to think, why aren't they outside exercising? Why are they not like all the things that you would like for them to be doing? And I think we know in our minds that the eye roll or the, "Hey, it's nice outside. You should go for a run" is probably not gonna work. And so what are we getting wrong based on the research about trying to change other people?

Dr. Tali Sharot: So there's a lot that we're getting wrong, but maybe just the premise that when you want to try to change someone, obviously what they're feeling is, you want to try to control me. And that is really the worst thing. Once someone feels like you're trying to control them, you're trying to restrict their agency, that lowers their motivation, that causes us to feel anxiety.

Mel Robbins: Why do we have this desire to want to control what somebody else is doing?

Dr. Tali Sharot: So the desire to control is the main desire of a human being. We want to control everything. And the reason it's kind of hardwired into us is because it is adaptive. If we can control it, imagine a scenario, you can control everything. Well, then you can get all the rewards, whether it is social rewards or just money, food, and avoid all the harms. So we have this instinct of the need to control. We have a need. And that's true for everything around us. Of course, there are individual differences. You have highly controlling people and people that are more relaxed. But it is this need that we all have to some extent, and particularly in certain situations, like in a partnership, you have to learn that it's not helpful.

Dr. Tali Sharot: I think it's not helpful in a partnership partially because when you do those kind of things, it makes the other person feel not only that you're trying to control them, but that they're not enough. That you're kind of seeing the negatives rather than the positives in this other person. So in some situations, perhaps what we need is to work on ourselves.

Mel Robbins: That's not the answer I want to hear. How do we just let them watch whatever they're watching?

Dr. Tali Sharot: I mean, you have to pick your battles, right?

Mel Robbins: First of all, thank you for explaining this because you're making me, and I hope the person listening, stop and actually think about the bigger dynamic here. So on one hand, every single human being wants to feel a sense of control over themselves. You use the word agency. Is that what that means? That I'm in control of myself?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Right.

Mel Robbins: Okay. So you want to feel in control of yourself. The person that is in your life, whether it's a partner or a parent or a child or a colleague, anybody that you would like them to change something, you both are feeling this need to control your own world. And basically what you're saying, and I've never thought about it this way, is that my desire to want other people to just be a little better because it's going to help their health, it might help them with their money, it might make them happier — that's my opinion. My desire to control them is in direct conflict with their fundamental need to be in control of themselves and their own life and their decisions.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Part of the reason why we have a desire to change others is because it's part of our need to control everything in our own life.

Mel Robbins: Can you explain more about that?

Dr. Tali Sharot: We want to change people in our life, whether it's our partner, our kids, or our parents, or our employees or colleagues, partially because by doing that, we can control our world to some extent. It could be subtle, and it could be not even something we're conscious of, but that's part of what's going on. We also have a responsibility to help others, to alter others in many situations, like definitely when it's about our children. So we definitely want to help them figure out what is good behavior, what is not good behavior. If you have students, if you're a doctor interacting with patients, helping clients. In many situations, journalists, social media — you go on social media, you're saying something that is going to influence other people.

Dr. Tali Sharot: So even if we think we're not doing that, we are doing that. The way you behave, the emotions that you show to others, what you do, your choices are going to affect people around you. We need to think about what is our influence and is it a good one. And we have more of it than we think because, in fact, you're actually influencing just people randomly around you. So if you sit on the subway and you're eating an apple, you don't realize it, but that actually is going to influence what other people around you feel like eating or what they choose later.

Mel Robbins: Really?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yes. Don't you feel that you see someone eating an ice cream and you're like, "Oh, I want an ice cream, too"? So it has some influence. But let's take another example. If someone's stressed, you don't know this person, and they're just sitting in front of you on a subway, they will have some impact on your emotional state. There are many studies showing that people who are stressed make people around them more stressed, even if they don't know them, even if they're not actual people in their life. Just random people. If you're happy and joyful, that also will — it's called emotional contagion. That will happen. And it happens for a good evolutionary reason, which is if you're fearful or stressed, there might be something around us that is a reason that I should be fearful and stressed as well. So I pick this up. The little facial clues that say you're afraid, my brain is saying, "Ooh, she's afraid. Maybe there's something dangerous here." And so I then have this fear as well. And this all happens really, really fast and really, really subconsciously. Or if you're very excited, maybe there's something around us that I should be excited about. Again, it's not conscious, but our brain does this very, very quickly. So it's important for people to just consider that we have a lot of impact on people around us. And much more when it comes to people who are actually in our home, our family, or in our workplace.

Mel Robbins: I already have a couple takeaways and I want to pause and highlight them to make sure that I am tracking because you're making me see things at a deeper level than I think I've ever considered. First of all, I'm learning that of course we have influence over the people around us. Of course you have the power to influence somebody's behavior for better or for worse. So that's one thing. And I think that's good news because you hear a lot that you can't change somebody else. I'm also realizing that the need to control your own life and your own surroundings is what's pushing you to push other people to do things. And so that may never go away. But what I'm hoping is that you can teach us how to be more effective with the influence that we have on other people so that we can influence them for the better.

Mel Robbins: So let's go to the scenario where your significant other is sitting on the couch. They're happily watching golf on a Sunday. You come in and you see them and you immediately have this sense of judgment and you have an opinion and you have this desire to control. And I'm also going to say, in that scenario, I'm typically somewhat stressed. And so my stress in the situation, even though I think I'm a loving person and I really care about this person and I'm right, I'm certain that my significant other on the couch happily watching golf is picking up on my stress, either through the tone of voice or the eye roll or some hormone I'm emitting. And I would imagine that they then respond with stress. Is that also kind of part of what's going on? That you're escalating it without realizing it?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Absolutely. And perhaps what you're trying to do is reduce your own stress.

Mel Robbins: Oh, wait. By changing the other person.

Dr. Tali Sharot: That's right. Because change your emotional state. There's a lot of reasons why this could be, but if you're stressed and now you're able to impact your environment, perhaps change the behavior of your partner, that could actually reduce your stress. So maybe subconsciously what you're trying to do is reduce your stress. Or maybe your stress is because you know you are concerned about your partner. Maybe they have a heart condition, and that causes you stress, and again what you're trying to do is reduce your stress by altering the other person.

Mel Robbins: It's so true because if you're worried about somebody because you're worried about their spending or you're worried that they're not taking care of themselves or you're worried that they're in a dead-end job, that causes you stress. And so you think the solution is make that other person change. And then this problem that I'm feeling goes away. And then we call it love. So maybe we can dig into why exactly this doesn't work, because it is my mission that after this conversation, as you listen to this, you not only have epiphanies and insights, but you've got a deeper understanding of why the way you've been approaching this for yourself and other people isn't working. And that should inspire you, I hope, to try a tactic that will, based on the research.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yeah, absolutely.

Mel Robbins: Does fear ever motivate somebody to change?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Okay, so it depends what kind of change you want. And here's the difference. Do you want someone to start acting in a certain way? Going to the gym, working hard? Or do you want them to stop acting? And that matters. For example, do you want someone not to share confidential information? Do you want to induce action or inaction?

Mel Robbins: Okay, so I want you to listen. And as you're listening, I want you to think about whatever scenario. And does this work with both other people and yourself?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins: Okay, great. So are you trying to make yourself start to do something new like exercise or stop doing something like gossiping?

Dr. Tali Sharot: So it is — fear is especially not effective if you're trying to get someone to act.

Mel Robbins: Okay. Gotcha. So the proactive, you're going to go do this new thing. Fear does not work.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Right. So, for example, telling someone, "If you don't go to the gym, you'll be fat." That's a fear strategy. And you're trying to use a fear strategy to get someone to do something. And the reason it doesn't work so well is because of something known as the approach-avoidance principle.

Mel Robbins: So what is that?

Dr. Tali Sharot: To get the good stuff in life, whether it's a promotion or chocolate cake or love, you need to do something. I need to move my arm to get this water and have a drink. So to get the good stuff on average, we need to act. And so our brain has evolved in this kind of environment where there's a connection between a reward and an action. And so when we concentrate on the reward or we expect something good, a "go" signal is activated deep in our brain and it makes us more likely to act.

Mel Robbins: That's cool.

Dr. Tali Sharot: On the other hand, to avoid the bad stuff in life, whether it's untrustworthy people or deep waters or poison, often, not always, but often what we need to do is not to act. And so there's a connection that evolved in our brain where when we expect something bad, there's a "no-go" signal deep in our brain, goes all the way to our motor cortex and makes inaction more likely. It reduces action. Of course, we're sophisticated creatures. We can overcome this. So that means if you think something bad is going to happen, mostly you first freeze. Only then you do something. So a reward, I'm running. Bad thing, I'm standing put. And so you can see why to motivate someone to act, it's better to highlight the reward, not the fear. Because fear causes inaction.

Mel Robbins: That's huge. You're basically saying any time that you use fear or make wrong on yourself or someone that you love, it causes you as a human being to freeze.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yes.

Mel Robbins: It is completely backfiring as a tactic. If you're expecting somebody to go proactively be better with money or to look for a job or to have healthier habits or to get out of bed earlier or to help out more around the house, if you're using fear and make wrong, the immediate reaction internally is paralysis, fear, hesitation.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yeah, that's the immediate reaction. And of course you can overcome this. So I'm not saying anytime that people are afraid or anytime that you use fear it's not going to work. But that's kind of the basic mechanism. We've done really simple experiments where we ask people, they have to press a button to get money. That's a reward. Action, reward. And then we have a condition where they have to press a button to avoid losing money. So they have to act to avoid a punishment. They're much better at pressing the button to get the money than pressing the button to avoid losing the money.

Mel Robbins: That makes a lot of sense. Let's just take an example like somebody that you love is vaping or smoking or doing something that we know has a very negative impact on your health. And you get frustrated and you're just like, "You need to quit vaping. I'm really scared. You're going to die. Your lungs are going to blow up." Whatever you end up saying and erupting at somebody. Why does that kind of scaring tactic not work?

Dr. Tali Sharot: One of the reasons is that we tend to think automatically it won't happen to me. People, other people who will smoke, they're going to die young. They're going to have lung cancer. But I'm probably going to be okay because I have these special genes. Often what we find is that actually reframing the message and making it about positive and progress works better. So I have a few girlfriends who smoke. And sure, they are concerned about cancer, but I see that really what's driving them to try to stop smoking is that they want to have a nicer glow, better skin. So you want to reframe this to highlight what are the positive outcomes. Instead of saying to someone, "If you take route A, you will lose time and money," which is the negative frame, you would say, "If you take route B, you will gain time and money."

Mel Robbins: So does this work in both the situation where you want to motivate yourself and in situations where you're trying to motivate someone else to change?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yes, absolutely. In many cases, the kind of things that help us in changing others, we can also use on ourselves.

Mel Robbins: In your research, you say that there are three different types of ways that you can motivate someone or yourself to change. Can you tell us what the three are? And then let's walk through them one by one.

Dr. Tali Sharot: So one is social proof, social incentives. What are other people doing? It is a relatively easy way to change behavior, highlighting the positive action of others. And let me give you an example of how this is done. Maybe we'll start on a large level, then we go into our personal life.

Mel Robbins: Great.

Dr. Tali Sharot: The British government used to send a letter to people who didn't pay their taxes on time. And they said, "You know, it's really important to pay your taxes." And that didn't help very well. So then after that, they added one sentence. And that sentence said, "9 out of 10 people in Britain pay their taxes on time." They are highlighting the good behavior of others. And that increased compliance by 15% and brought the government 5.6 billion pounds.

Mel Robbins: So that's amazing. Okay, now let me ask you though, because here's the thing. If I listen to that example, I think to myself, if I were to march in and say to my husband, Chris, "Tali's husband is exercising every day of the week and he looks really great," that would probably not motivate Chris. But that's the social proof. How do you use social proof when you're trying to nudge somebody else in a positive way?

Dr. Tali Sharot: The other kind of thing to think about when it comes to social incentives and social proof is that if you're trying to change a behavior, it's really helpful to model that behavior. So if you want kids not to be on their phones and you're on the phone half the time, that's not good. If you want them to eat well, but then you're not eating the apple, that's not good. So you need to model that behavior. And so with getting your husband to go out and run, you can come in and be like, "Oh, ready for a run?" And then try to convince him to come along with you. Maybe it's more like for you.

Mel Robbins: Got it. You know, the joke of the example that I gave you is that Chris is the one that exercises and I'm the one sitting on the couch. Another one of the three ways to motivate people is immediate reward. Can you give an example of how you can create an immediate reward for somebody else? And how do you even figure out what's a reward for someone else that they might respond to?

Dr. Tali Sharot: So one clear immediate reward that everyone loves is kind of reinforcing them with social feedback when they do something. A friend of mine, anytime when I ask him about how his kids are doing, or I asked him about something that he told me he was having trouble with — he was trying to get over it, like a colleague that he was having a problem with — and then like a week later, I was asking, "Oh, how did that happen?" What he always says is, "Oh, thank you for asking." And by saying "thank you for asking," that causes me to want to do that kind of thing again. To be kind of perceptive about what people are telling me, to ask about it. So he's basically reinforcing this behavior by giving me an immediate reward. The moment I did this, he said, "Thank you for asking." And that's my reward.

Mel Robbins: This is so fascinating. And I think it's really important. And so I want to see if I am tracking with you and go back into our living room where that unsuspecting person is sitting on the couch, happily watching golf, and you walk in the room and you're really stressed out. And if we take what you just told us to do based on the research, if you were to do something negative and you were to pressure them, "You should go," or whatever, "I'm not gonna let you turn that off," you're basically saying the brain doesn't even absorb it. They just tune you right out and they are not motivated. But if you were to go, "Hey, honey, you know, it's beautiful outside. And if you go outside and you actually get your run in after this golf match is over, you're gonna be so much more energized tomorrow morning," that would be a better way.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yes, absolutely. I had someone tell me that they learned about this and then they went back to their teenage boy, with whom they usually had a lot of struggles in the evening about when to go to sleep. They usually said, "If you don't go to sleep by 10 p.m., you're going to be tired the next day," and so on. It didn't work. But then after reading the book, she went back and she said, "If you go to sleep early, you'll look better and be more energetic for your girlfriend." And she said that worked perfectly well.

Mel Robbins: Well, I mean, it's such a simple trick, but it makes so much sense. And I'm even thinking about it with myself. Like I'm constantly shaming myself. "Oh, I should get up. I should do this thing," versus thinking about, well, what do I actually care about?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Absolutely.

Mel Robbins: Dr. Sharot, I am so grateful that you are here because I am learning so much about what I'm doing wrong and why it hasn't been working. And I feel empowered to try new strategies. And so I want to take a quick break and hear a word from our sponsors. And while you're listening to our sponsors and they bring you this show at zero cost, I also want you to think, who in your life can you send this to? Because maybe it's somebody that's nagging you, maybe it's somebody that you really want to get this information to so that they have the research and they can better empower themselves to change. So go ahead and share this episode with someone that you love, take a listen to our sponsors and do not go anywhere, please. And let me tell you about the reward because we're not only gonna keep inspiring you, we have so many specific takeaways coming up that you're gonna be thrilled that you stuck around to learn and we'll be waiting for you after a short break. Stay with us.

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Mel Robbins: Welcome back, it's your friend Mel and we are here with the remarkable neuroscientist, Dr. Tali Sharot. She is teaching us all about change, the things that we're doing wrong when it comes to trying to change other people and what we need to know about the research so that we can better inspire ourselves and empower other people in our lives to change. So, Dr. Tali, we all know what we could or should be doing, right? You know that if you want to be healthier, you need to exercise today. You know that if you want to write the book, you need to be writing today. You know that if you'd like to be in a different job in a year, you better dust off your resume and do it today. Why is it so hard to make ourselves do those things? Why do we procrastinate when we know what that positive thing is that we do want?

Dr. Tali Sharot: So that positive thing in all the examples that you just gave, they're in the future, right? While the good stuff is just in front of you. The chocolate cake is there. I can have a bite now and immediately I'll get a sugar rush. Immediately. It's certain. Or the drink is there. I'll drink it. And for the immediate time, it will make me feel good. Or I can sit on the couch and watch golf or a Netflix show or whatever. And that will be an immediate gratification. The joy is immediate. For all the other things that you said, I will do the action now, but mostly the rewards will be in the future. So I write the book now, it'll be published in like two years. I exercise now, I will eventually fit into my jeans, but it's not going to happen immediately. So there's this problem of a temporal gap between what we need to do, which we need to do it now, and the reward that we will get, which will be in the future, versus the stuff that's probably not good for us, but the reward is immediate. So that's a problem. And part of the problem is what's known as temporal discounting or present bias.

Mel Robbins: What is temporal?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Temporal is just time.

Mel Robbins: Oh, okay, great. So there's a huge gap of time between the action I need to take and the long-term benefit of taking this action right now.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Right. And there's this thing called temporal bias or temporal discounting, which is basically this phenomenon, which makes sense, by which we value things in the present more than things in the future. It's not that we don't care about the future. You care about the future, but if, for example, I tell people, "What would you rather have? $100 now or $110 next week?" Most people will take $100 now. We discount the future to some degree, which if you think about it, makes sense because the future is uncertain. Maybe I'll go to the gym and I won't actually end up being able to get into my jeans. Maybe I'll write the book, but it'll be a failure in the future.

Mel Robbins: You've also taught us that we have this imperative personally to stay in control. And so what is also in my control right now is the hundred bucks that you're about to hand me or the Netflix show that's on right now. Is that playing a role in this too?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yes. I think because we have more control now, at least a perception of it. In fact, if I do something now, it will impact the future. So I do have some control over the future, but because it's relatively uncertain, because there's so many days and everything can happen — maybe I'll die tomorrow — so I put all this work in and then I'm dead in a week. So it's easier to just go with the immediate. It's more attractive.

Mel Robbins: And is there a trick to get yourself to act now and do things now that are hard that actually make your life easy in the longer run?

Dr. Tali Sharot: The number one trick is to give yourself immediate rewards. What do I mean? Let's say usually when you think about going to the gym, you say, "I want to go to the gym. I don't want to, but I need to go to the gym so I can get these future rewards, which I'll be skinny and healthier and whatever in the future." But think about what will you get immediately? Or you can do that for someone else. What will you get immediately if you go now to the gym, not only what will you get in the future? So let's say for yourself, someone told me they anytime they go on the treadmill, they allow themselves to watch a trashy show that usually they don't allow themselves. That's the immediate reward. Or you go for a run and you listen to a podcast.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Immediate reward. And you can also give it to someone else. There was a woman who came to me after a talk and she said she wanted to get her husband to go to the gym.

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Dr. Tali Sharot: And he didn't really like it, but then eventually he went one day. And when he got back, I don't think it was intentional, but she kind of touched his arm and was like, "Oh, I can really feel your muscles."

Mel Robbins: Right.

Dr. Tali Sharot: And she said, well, that did it.

Mel Robbins: Right.

Dr. Tali Sharot: He that caused him to go back the next day. So that was the immediate reward.

Mel Robbins: Right. You know what else I'm gaining from your research is that if the mistake that we've been making by pressuring, judging, guilting, all that other stuff highlights the bad behavior, then when you give your love and attention, appreciation to calling out the good behavior, you are really now helping them move toward that. Instead of creating that paralysis, you're actually fueling the tank, so to speak. That's super cool.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yeah. And make sure to do that. For some reason, our automatic reaction is to focus on, "Oh, they're not doing that enough." And when they do do, we might in our head say, "Oh, that's nice." But we have to actually verbalize that. So my daughter, for example, she in general doesn't eat much or doesn't like to eat anything that's healthy for sure. We went out and she ordered a sandwich that had vegetables in it. And I said, "Olivia, well done. I'm so proud of you." So you have to highlight that when people do these things.

Mel Robbins: Yes. A lot of people read that as condescending, though. I find that sometimes when people are really defensive, or at least that scenario with the kids, when our son finally started eating things that were green instead of a chicken nugget and a French fry, and I'm like, "Finally, that's great." When did that happen? Double digits, at least. We were way into the double digits. One is eating fine, but the other one's not. So there's probably a way to say it without it sounding like "finally you're doing it." Saying "I'm really proud of you" is different.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Exactly.

Mel Robbins: But the way that you do it with adults, for example, my husband has this new thing where he gets up, he doesn't wake me up, he gets the kids ready for school, he takes them to school, and I just get to sleep. And how amazing is that?

Dr. Tali Sharot: How did you train him to do that?

Mel Robbins: I don't know why he decided one day to start that. And he knows I don't like mornings. If I can sleep just another hour without anyone waking me up, that's great. But I make sure to say, "Oh my God, thank you, that was so great." I think that's good for everyone.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Of course, of course.

Mel Robbins: The third way you can motivate people to change that we've talked about is progress tracking. How do you use that if you're trying to help somebody get better with money?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Okay, so a lot of progress tracking, I mean, there are a lot of apps for all of these things. There's a reason why lots of these apps, whether you're tracking your steps or your expenses, exist. Maybe you don't want to track everything, but think about what the goal is. Then you can track the specific elements that are related to that goal.

Mel Robbins: How does the progress fuel your motivation to keep going? There must be a connection based on the research.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Right. So it brings the joy that we feel from progress. When we see that we're progressing, that is really what's causing us the joy. When we do well, that is also joyful, but doing better is even more joyful. Imagine you're running a marathon and you do really well, like three hours 30 minutes. And then the next year you do three hours 30 minutes again. It's still very good, but imagine it's three hours and 28 minutes. It's so much better because there's progress.

Mel Robbins: Right.

Dr. Tali Sharot: In fact, if we are at the top of our game but we are not progressing, we're just maintaining, that can actually be extremely demotivating. We always need some progress in our life. And it makes sense that our brain has evolved to be like that because it causes us to try to progress as an individual and as a species.

Mel Robbins: Go ahead.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Think about your first entry level job. When you got it, you were probably really, really happy. But of course, after a while, you're hoping for something else. You're hoping for that promotion. You want to see some progress. It's just the way that we are wired, and there's a good reason for it.

Mel Robbins: Got it. One of my favorite experiments that shows this is about handwashing. We all know that hand washing is important, especially to avoid the spread of disease, especially in hospitals and restaurants. So in a hospital in New York State, a camera was installed to see how often medical staff actually wash their hands before and after entering a patient's room.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Oh, man.

Mel Robbins: I don't know if I want to know this. They found that only one in ten, only 10% of the medical staff washed their hands before and after entering a patient's room. Now, this was before the pandemic, so hopefully numbers are different now, but still 10%. And to be clear, the medical staff knew the camera was installed. It wasn't a nanny camera situation. They knew the camera was installed, and yet it was only 10% that actually washed their hands. Then they made one change. They put an electronic board that told the medical staff how well they were doing. Every time they washed their hands, they immediately got positive feedback saying "well done, good shift." They could see it. The electronic board was above the patient's door.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Wow.

Mel Robbins: And they saw the numbers going up of the current shift rate and the weekly rate of people washing their hands and the compliance. The number of people who washed their hands went from 10% to 90%.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Holy cow.

Mel Robbins: Which is huge. And it stayed there for quite a while. It was such a big effect that they wanted to make sure it was real, so they replicated it in another division in the hospital. Here they found something very similar. It started at 30%, they put the electronic board with the feedback, the "well done, good shift," and it went up to 90% again. Why does that work? It works for all the reasons we just discussed. The normal approach is just to tell the medical staff if you don't wash their hands there will be bad things in the future, illness and disease, so you have to wash their hands. A is in the future, B is something bad, so it doesn't cause me to act. Now they flipped it. Now you're washing your hands to get a positive message, which is immediate and positive.

Dr. Tali Sharot: And how about the fact that you're also seeing that other people are doing it? Does that impact your desire to move toward it and adopt this positive behavior?

Mel Robbins: Right, absolutely. So there are two other really important things here. One is social proof. I'm seeing that 60%, 70%, 80% are doing it. I don't want to be the one who doesn't. I want to do the good stuff, which is what other people are doing. This is very helpful. I know that sometimes when you take one of those city bikes, there's actually a little electronic board telling you how many people have taken these bikes today in the city. That makes you feel like, "Oh, I'm part of this big group." And, "A lot of people are taking bikes, being green." That motivates me to do the same. So that's social proof. And the other nice thing about it, the numbers keep going up. That's very gratifying.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yes.

Mel Robbins: And same thing with the hand washing. You wash your hands, numbers go up. You see it going up. There's progress. Dr. Sharot, I am eating up every single word. And this right now feels like a great moment to take a quick pause so we can hear a word from our sponsors. Don't you love what you're learning from Dr. Sharot? And did you notice her last name? Sharot. So how about you share this episode with somebody that you love while you're listening to our sponsors. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

[Ad break]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel. We are here with Dr. Sharot. She is teaching us so much about the latest research related to how you can inspire yourself to change, and more importantly, what not to do and what to do when you're trying to empower the people in your life to change their behavior. So, Dr. Sharot, you're a parent. How the heck do we apply this to our life? How do I use this to maybe get the kids to do chores, to get everybody to help out? How do we apply this?

Dr. Tali Sharot: So, in fact, I would say with kids is the easiest thing to do.

Mel Robbins: Okay.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Right. So first of all, let's start with the very beginning. You don't want to control them or give them a sense that you are telling them what to do. So for example, let's say you want them to eat vegetables. Instead of saying, "Here, eat your carrots," say, "Do you want carrots or would you like cucumbers?"

Mel Robbins: Right.

Dr. Tali Sharot: So there's a choice. Or even better, make your own salad. So they're in control. Or a lot of times you may ask, "Do you want me to choose your vegetable or do you want to choose yourself?"

Mel Robbins: Oh, that's sneaky. I like that one.

Dr. Tali Sharot: I like that one. Sometimes they prefer that. My kids are eight and ten, and they dress themselves, but when they were younger, sometimes I would choose their outfits. But I would ask, "Hey, do you want me to choose your outfit or do you want to choose it today?" Sometimes they want me to choose, but telling me that they want me to choose is a choice. So now I'm not taking the control out of them. They're giving it to me. It's a bit different. So they're still maintaining their agency. This comes into play a lot. Instead of telling an employee, "This is what you're going to work on," give people options. Same thing with clients. Even if you're a doctor, you could say, "This is a treatment, I think," or you could say, "Here are a few options. Let's talk them through and see what's best." You don't want to give too many options, because that can be overwhelming. There's a famous study where people are given an option to choose between 60 different jams in a store, and some people are so overwhelmed they just leave empty-handed. But two or three options, that's an easy way. Giving people a choice is an easy way to maintain their sense of control, agency, and motivation. For example, I bike to work, and I don't always put a helmet on.

Mel Robbins: And because you're the exception, right? Come on, Doc, what are you doing? You're not following. And this is not good.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Right. And so what I do is I say, okay, anytime that I get to work and I have my helmet on, I'm allowed to have a little Hershey chocolate or something small. So that's a reward.

Mel Robbins: Can I just underscore something? You are one of the number one neuroscientists in the world. If anybody's brain needs to be protected, it's yours. So I love the fact that you just admitted after trying to teach all of us how to change other people that you yourself believe you're the exception and you have to reward yourself to put a helmet on?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yeah, I have to say, it's partially because I think I'm the exception, but it is an odd thing. And it's more about convenience. In London where I bike, I had this really bad helmet. So I did put it on every time, but it was obvious that it wasn't going to help. It was just not even fitting.

Mel Robbins: Are you literally arguing for why you don't wear the helmet?

Dr. Tali Sharot: No, I was wearing it, but I knew that it was just to tick a box. It wasn't even fitting. If something happened, it wouldn't help. It was like wearing a hat. The helmet was so bad. It took months and months and months until I finally went to buy a new one. But this was months and months of biking in London with a helmet that absolutely wasn't protecting me at all.

Mel Robbins: Here's what I've learned. You needed to attach an immediate reward to that helmet and to wearing it. Otherwise, you're going to avoid doing it at all costs.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Well, I mean, I did this in this specific example. I was wearing it, but it wasn't good. What I was trying to do was get myself to go to a store to buy something better. And I was like, well, I don't have time to go.

Mel Robbins: Immensely relatable. And I think what I'm really hearing over and over is that we are naturally wired to move towards the positive. We are naturally wired to move toward the immediate benefit. And so much of the way that we approach change with ourselves, and certainly the way we approach change in the people that we love, is with negative reinforcement, with threats, with pressure, with fear. You're really highlighting over and over again to start thinking about helping people move toward what's good versus trying to shove them away from what's bad. And we all have that person in our lives, whether it's ourselves or somebody that we love, that is so resistant to change. Is it human nature to be defensive or to not want to take accountability for the changes that are going to make our life better?

Dr. Tali Sharot: So, again, there are a lot of individual differences. You have people who really like trying different things and so on. But it is difficult to change because what we're doing now, the status quo, that's the easiest thing. It's easy to just continue doing what you're doing. Making a change means effort. And there's all this uncertainty. If I continue doing what I'm doing, at least I know what the outcome is. If I try something new, I don't know what the outcome is. It's uncertain. People don't like uncertainty. We like to predict. In fact, that's what our brain is trying to do all the time. We're predicting the next thing. You're predicting my next word without even noticing it. So we don't like it when we don't know what's going to happen. And change means uncertainty. But it turns out that on average, change actually tends to do us good. There's a great study by the economist Steven Levitt where he had people go online and write something that they wanted to change. It could be something small, like just change your hair, or it could be big, like entering or exiting a relationship, entering or exiting a job. So they wrote down what they wanted to change. Then he asked them to flip a virtual coin. If the coin hit heads, go ahead and make a change. If it was tails, stick with the status quo. Then he came back to them two weeks later and six months later. First of all, he found that they were more likely to make a change if they got heads. 25% more likely.

Mel Robbins: Well, hold on. Which one was heads? I already forgot.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Make a change. But basically whatever the coin showed, it actually had an effect. 25%. I mean, it's not huge, but it's something.

Mel Robbins: Which sounds crazy. I would have predicted the opposite. I would have predicted that if the coin flip was "don't change," people would be like, "Don't tell me what to do. I'm going to go change. You watch me."

Dr. Tali Sharot: So if you got the coin toss, you're more likely to make the change. It's actually a really interesting question. Why? We can talk about that.

Mel Robbins: Why did that even work? I'd like to know. Why does that work?

Dr. Tali Sharot: It's like giving someone else the responsibility. It's like, "I've thought about it so much, and now someone has told me. It's fate. I have to go with it. It's beyond me." But okay, so 25% more were likely to change. But importantly, when he came back two weeks and six months later, what he found was that on average, and there were thousands and thousands of people in this study, those people that made a change were happier. Of course, some people weren't. But on average, a change was related to an enhancement in your well-being. I think there are at least two reasons why. One is, if you're already thinking about a change, there's a reason. Something needs changing. If you're thinking about changing a job or moving house, there's probably a reason you're thinking about it, which is that there's something that's not great that could be better. That's one reason why a change ends up being good. To be clear, this doesn't mean it's recommended to always change. It doesn't even say what the change is. Perhaps you were thinking about a change regarding your relationship. It doesn't say break up. It says a change is needed. So maybe you have to go to therapy as a change. Maybe it's changing your routines. But a change is needed. And the second reason I think a change on average ended up being a good thing is because a change means more variety in your life. It puts you in a new state, a state of learning. If you make a change, you're now in a different situation in a different environment. You need to learn something. And people, although they don't necessarily predict it, they really enjoy learning. When we are in a state of learning, that's why people are listening to your podcast.

Mel Robbins: Yes, that's true.

Dr. Tali Sharot: That's why podcasts are so popular. That's why you're here. Because people love learning. And when they learn, it makes them really happy. There's a simple study conducted by two neuroscientists, Rutledge and Blaine. What they found is that they had people do a task. If they did well, they got money. And they liked getting money. They were happy when they got money. But it turned out that they were even happier when they learned something about the task. So learning really brings you joy. And learning is basically a change. And so I think a change brings diversity to your life. Variety puts you in a state of learning.

Mel Robbins: So I want to ask for your advice based on the research for how somebody might approach a situation. I'm sure as they're listening to you, they're thinking, "I feel very inspired. I feel very hopeful. And I really want to have a conversation with a person in my life that I do want to support in changing." Is there a certain way to approach a conversation or specific things to say or not say to somebody when you want to talk to them about a touchy subject? Finding a new job, taking better care of yourself. How would you approach that to set the dynamic up for success with another adult?

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yeah. Okay, so I think there are a few things you want to avoid that we talked about. Not seeming like you are giving them a prescription. But rather, what you're doing is exploring different options. And I think the focus has to be on what they want, not what you think they should want. Because maybe what they want is different from what you want for them or what you think they should want for themselves.

Mel Robbins: And what you've taught us is that we will never get away from the fact that at the end of the day, you want control over yourself, and the person that you love wants to feel like they're in control of their lives. So this is a conversation to walk into with your eyes wide open. You may be worried or stressed or care about this issue deeply, but what really matters is what this person wants.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Right. And what I found interesting is that when you ask people about how they're feeling about things, you just ask them. You get a lot of information. That's when they start talking. So I think maybe that's a good starting point.

Mel Robbins: Yes.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Something like, "So how are you feeling about what you want to talk about? How are you feeling about your job? Do you like it?"

Mel Robbins: That is very helpful. I've seen it with my team. We have a discussion at least once a year, if not more, where I'm just asking them, "Okay, tell me how you're doing." That simple question, which I don't think we ask enough, you get so much information. From that point, you really want to focus on the other person. What is it that they do that they like? What is it that they want to change? Where are they trying to go? Because if somebody doesn't want to, they're not going to. It doesn't matter how much you want it. Getting them to start to talk about how they feel about their health or their financial situation or where their career is going and what they would actually want, that's how you start to tap into some of the fundamental things you've been talking about. What do you do though if you have somebody that's just extremely resistant to change? Is there anything that you would recommend based on the research that you try with somebody who is scared, anxious, digging their heels in, stubborn? Is there an approach that's more effective than another?

Dr. Tali Sharot: So I think often people who are very resistant to any kind of change have negative expectations of how they will feel or what the outcome will be if they change, or they think it's not possible. "I'll try and I'll fail." Often it's about our expectations. So I think it's helpful to think about how can I get to this positive place? If it's really about people having negative expectations of either what they could do or what it would be like once they get there, maybe we can get there by making a specific plan. I think changing these expectations, which in fact means making people more optimistic about something, is motivation for action.

Mel Robbins: I also think I feel like I know a bunch of couples where the dynamic is really more about the control. It's not about the health. It's not about the issue at all of finding a new job. It's that the second that one partner says, "I would really like you to take better care of yourself," the other person feels like they're being controlled. And as long as they don't change, they're now in control of their own life and their spouse can't tell them what to do. So I think oftentimes you get in these standoffs with people where you're arguing about health or a job or something else, and it's really that this person doesn't want to be controlled by you.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yeah, absolutely.

Mel Robbins: So we've focused a lot on other people, but what are the best ways to motivate yourself to change?

Dr. Tali Sharot: So first of all, I think that we focus a lot on the things that are not good enough. We need to change. We need to become better. I suggest as a first step, let's take some time to think about the great things that we have done. A lot of very difficult things. Every one of us has done really difficult things and overcome obstacles. And a lot of things that we do are quite hard. And we all have great skills. Let's focus on that for a while. Even uber successful people focus on what could be better. The reason that's helpful is because that gives you confidence and strength. When you say to yourself, "Look, I've done this and this and this," that gives you strength to say, "Okay, maybe I have what it takes to do whatever the next change is that I want to do." A lot of motivation comes from the belief that you can do that. So to have motivation, we need to think through what are the steps? What is the plan? Maybe I want to write a book. Well, that's quite huge. How do I get motivation? Well, then maybe think about the specific steps I need to do. The outline first. Let's do 10 pages at a time. Focus on those. Then start to think about what is it that I've already done in my past life that suggests that I can do this. It could be things that are related, like maybe you wrote articles. Or it could be things that are unrelated. You're like, "Well, I gave birth. That was quite hard." Or, "I raised kids. That was quite hard." There are a lot of things we've done in our life that are hard and we overcame them. That's good to have in the back of our minds.

Mel Robbins: So I love that because you're right. A lot of the change comes from a "make wrong" and from a "should." If you step one, do an assessment and say, "Let me just give myself a little bit of credit here. Yeah, I've done a lot of hard things in my life, whether it's related to this or not. And I've also shown up in major ways for other people. All of that is evidence that I'm pretty amazing and that I can apply that to this new thing that I want to do." So if you can wrap your mind, by using past experience, around the belief that it is possible for you to show up, it is possible for you to chip away at this, what is the second most important thing to add in to keep you moving forward?

Dr. Tali Sharot: What's very helpful is have other people who believe in you. It's nice to know that other people have trust in you because it changes your confidence in yourself as well.

Mel Robbins: Of course, but I want to just make sure that the person listening who is somewhere in the world right now and does not have that support, because I get a ton of questions from listeners to this podcast, one of the biggest challenges is, "I feel like I want to make all these changes and I'm not getting the support from my family. I'm getting the side glance from my friends about starting this new real estate business, or my family is busy drinking while I'm trying not to." If you don't have that support and you've done step one and you've really looked at your own life for evidence that you can do this, what else can you focus on?

Mel Robbins: Because it's really discouraging when you're trying to change and you don't feel like the folks around you are supporting you.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yeah, and I'll tell you what else you can do. But before that, I suggest you go and find it. And I think it's possible. So, for example, if you want to start a real estate, let's say you're a woman, you want to start your own real estate company. Well, there are kind of groups that you can find probably on social media. So I think even if you're saying, "Well, in my family, I'm not getting support," you could find that support elsewhere. Just try at least to look for it because I think it's possible. And it is super helpful.

Mel Robbins: I am so glad you said this because here is what I learned too late. I have looked to my family to support me through experiences that they do not understand. Chris is wonderfully supportive. He doesn't have a clue what I deal with day to day in my business because he doesn't run a business like this, and neither do my kids. I love that you said that because also, looking at people who have never been where you're going or don't understand where you are means you will feel misunderstood and not supported. The best thing that you could do is seek out the people that are doing what you're doing, or who you think are competing with you, because they're not. They're the people on the planet that actually understand what you're up against. So thank you for reminding us that there's support all around us if we're willing to look for it and go find it.

Dr. Tali Sharot: Yeah, absolutely.

Mel Robbins: Well, Dr. Tali Sharot, thank you so much for being here. And I also wanted to thank you for spending time with us today. And in case nobody tells you, I wanted to tell you that I love you. I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to not only create a better life, but to take Dr. Sharot's words to heart. Stop pressuring the people in your life to change because they don't want to hear it from you, and focus on changing yourself and your own life for the better. Alrighty, I'll talk to you in a few days.

[End of interview. Post-show banter begins.]

Mel Robbins: Okay, great. You ready? Here we go. Tracy's like, "Let's talk about magic wand. You are my puppet. Here we go. Move it." Did you notice I didn't even look at my cards? Hold on, and change it. Hold on, let me do this one more time. Oh my lordy. Okay, here we go. Is that good? Do I need to do it one more time? Also, my strings are out of my pants. That was a very low budget look. Okay, here we go. You think that's it? Okay, great. Okay, I love it. Wrap it up.

[Legal disclaimer]

Mel Robbins: Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.