--:-- Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Congratulations, because you have just hit play on the exact thing you need to hear right now. I am not kidding.
--:-- Mel Robbins: If you are tired of thinking about what you want, if you're tired of talking about it, if you're tired of watching other people do the things you want to do in life, get ready. Because this conversation today is dedicated to you. Today, you and I are not talking, you're doing. Because talk is cheap. And it's time to stop making excuses and start doing the work that you need to do to create what you want in your life.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And don't even waste your time or mine with the excuses because I heard them all. And so has the person that you're about to meet. I know you're too old, you're too young. Oh, I don't live in the right place. Oh, I'm too late. Oh, I'm not surrounded by the right people. Well, everybody else is already doing the thing that I want to do. There's no room for me. Aren't you sick of these excuses? Of course you are. And by the time you're done listening today, you're going to be done making them, and you're going to also know that you deserve the success that you want.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Today's episode is an invitation to dream, and not just dream, but dream in color. Really go for it. To stop saying, "What if I fail?" and start saying, "What if I succeed?" I mean, imagine that. And after today, you will succeed because what you're gonna learn comes from real world experience.
--:-- Mel Robbins: In our Boston studios is someone who has built a billion dollar career in one of the toughest, most cutthroat industries on the planet. I'm talking about Will Packer. Will is an award-winning filmmaker and Hollywood producer with 10 number one box office hits. His films have grossed over a billion dollars. And you are going to know his films when I tell you what he has produced, but here's what you don't know. Will didn't come from money. He didn't have connections, but what he's learned over the years is how to cultivate an unstoppable mindset.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Now, I have devoured his New York Times bestselling book. It is packed with takeaways and the craziest stories that you're going to love that prove the validity of everything that he is about to teach you today. This episode is a masterclass in building unshakable belief in yourself and your dreams, especially when no one else believes in you, and even when you're not sure you believe in you. So buckle up, because Will believes you can create a blockbuster life, and today he's gonna walk you step-by-step through the lessons he's learned as he's built his.
--:-- [Theme music fades in and out]
--:-- Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so fired up for our conversation today. I'm excited that you're here. It is always an honor to spend time and to be together. And if you're a new listener to the podcast, I wanted to personally welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. Thank you for being here.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And because you made time to listen to this particular episode today, here's what I know about you. I know you're the kind of person who not only values your time, but that you're ready for something more. You see a bigger possibility for yourself, and you're going to be thanking yourself when you're done listening to the conversation today.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And if you're here right now because someone shared this episode with you, it means that they see something in you. They know you're capable of more. And maybe all that's been missing is the right person with the right advice and the right background stepping in and taking the time to reignite that fire within you. And that's exactly what's gonna happen today.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I am so excited to introduce you to Will Packer. Will is a record-breaking Hollywood filmmaker and producer. His movies have grossed more than a billion dollars at the box office. He has had 10 number one releases, including *Straight Outta Compton*, *Girls Trip*, *Think Like a Man*, *Stomp the Yard*, *Night School*, and *Ride Along*. He also is the instant *New York Times* bestselling author of *Who Better Than You: The Art of Healthy Arrogance and Dreaming Big*.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Now, Will's book has already been a *New York Times* bestseller for 10 weeks. Oprah named it one of the best self-help books of 2025. I'm calling it one of the best mindset books you'll read. The team and I devoured his book cover to cover, and here's what I love about it. Will not only takes you behind the scenes and tells you all these incredible stories and unpacks the lessons learned from his incredible career as a filmmaker and producer. In fact, you're going to learn that Kevin Hart has worked on more films with Will than any other producer. As he dives into the lessons and the stories behind his career, you're going to hear names like Beyonce, Paul Walker, Tiffany Haddish, Idris Elba, Steve Harvey, just to name a few.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And the reason why I wanted to have Will on the podcast is because of the path that Will took in order to get where he is today. See, Will didn't grow up in Hollywood. He didn't have money or connections. Heck, he wasn't even in New York or LA. He's been underestimated his entire life by everyone but one person: himself. I kid you not. When you start listening to him, you're going to think, "Did he just come into the world believing in himself?" No, it's something he cultivated along the way and he is here to teach you how to do the same thing.
--:-- Mel Robbins: That's why I wanted him to spend time with you. And he's not just gonna tell stories, although some of them are pretty amazing and wild. He's actually here to teach you some really important things, like how to believe in your worth before the world is clapping for you, how to pivot after rejection and keep going, how to keep showing up during those periods when no one is watching, and how to stop talking and finally start doing.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Will is going to tell you over and over and over that every single room that you walk into is better because you're in it. And by the time you're done listening, you'll actually believe it. So without further ado, please help me welcome the extraordinary Will Packer to the Mel Robbins podcast.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Will Packer in the house. I am so excited you're here. Thank you, thank you, thank you for making the trip.
--:-- Will Packer: Are you kidding me? I'm excited to be here. This is awesome. This is so very cool. Just sitting here, being able to vibe with you. Your team is amazing. And just, I'm looking forward to conversation, what we can share with folks.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, and I also can't wait to hear what happens in the person's life who's listening and to the people who they share this with. Because, Will, I got to tell you, I devoured your book. I cannot wait to unpack the stories and the lessons. And I'd like to start by having you speak directly to the person who's listening.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And tell them how their life might be different if they take everything that you're about to share with us that you have learned, oftentimes the hard way.
--:-- Mel Robbins: If they really take it to heart and they apply it to their life, what could change?
--:-- Will Packer: I'm so glad you asked that because it's why I wrote the book. I have so many people coming and saying, "Will, will you mentor me?" Or, "Will you do a masterclass? Will you come and talk to my students?" And I try to do it as much as possible. I can't talk to everybody. So I said, you know what? What's the mentorship I wish I had? What are the secrets that I now know that I can't go and sit with every single person, but I can go out and I can put it out in a book that I can share with as many people as possible? It's one of the reasons I wrote it, to pour back into the community of people that have supported me.
--:-- Will Packer: I wanted people to feel like they could be seen and heard in a very different way. Not just listened to, but like present. I wanted them to walk into a room and not feel like they had to justify why they were in that room. I wanted them to figure out how better to prioritize themselves in a world where it's all about balance. Everything's crazy. You're trying to balance everything. We could all use some help prioritizing the main things. And sometimes you are the main thing.
--:-- Will Packer: And then asking that question, "Who better than me?" Because the reality is that it helps to unlock you beyond your paycheck or your circumstance or the things around you that are constraining you. When you say, "Who better than me to work past this, to get past this? Who better than me to accomplish something that feels like it's beyond my current situation?" That's a question you got to constantly ask yourself over and over every day and then learn how to answer that the right way.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Okay, let's just start right there. Four words: "Who better than me?"
--:-- Mel Robbins: As I was listening to you say that, "Who better than me?" I thought, what a genius thing to ask yourself. Because that question by design, "Who better than me?" actually presumes the answer.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Which is you are the person that is in the best position to do whatever is necessary to solve this problem, seize this opportunity, make this change.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And the question itself is a challenge. It is a challenge to yourself. Because you're not asking someone else, "Tell me, do I deserve it? Tell me, am I important enough? Tell me, have I impressed you?" No, no, no, no, no. You're asking the most important person to give that answer. You're asking yourself, "Who's better than me?" You're challenging yourself to name somebody else that deserves it more than you.
--:-- Will Packer: And then once you realize that you deserve success, the most successful people I've been around, it's not that they're just so amazing. It's not that they have some talent that you or I or the person watching us don't have. What they have is this mentality that they deserve success. That's the key. Deserve success. And that it's coming. Because a lot of times, and I've been there, you think, "I haven't been successful to this point. I don't know if it's coming. It didn't come today. It didn't come yesterday. It might not come tomorrow." The most successful people feel like it's coming. I don't know when, but it's coming. You can't let go of that. You got to believe it's coming. Success is coming.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I 1000% agree with you. And one of the other reasons why I like this question, the title of the book, of course, is *Who Better Than You*, which as I see that, I'm like, "Huh, who better than you? He's talking to me." And then you start to ask yourself, "Well, who better than me?" You also recognize that oftentimes you're sitting around waiting for somebody to pick you, waiting for somebody to make the opportunity, waiting for somebody else to see what you hope people recognize, but you got to see it in yourself first.
--:-- Mel Robbins: In fact, you write about this, Will. I'm reading from your *New York Times* bestseller, *Who Better Than You?* And I love what you wrote in the introduction. "Too often, we're waiting for someone else to hand us the keys that open the doors to our goals. And we want that person to not just give us the keys, but to also show us how to use them. You will already be closer to obtaining your personal level of greatness when you understand that you are the key. You are the secret sauce. You are the person you've been waiting on to give you the leg up that will make all the difference. Who better than you? By realizing that you already have access to that power, you are closer to unlocking it, closer to producing a blockbuster life, embarking on an extraordinary career path, or maybe, maybe just having the audacity to put on your own blowout affair celebrating who else? You. You."
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love this. And just remember one thing, this much I know to be true, Oprah ain't coming.
--:-- Will Packer: That's a nod to a story you're going to tell us.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yes, it is. But for the person who's listening, who's like, "Yes, Will, yes." But they hear "produce a blockbuster life."
--:-- Mel Robbins: You are an acclaimed producer. What actually is a producer? You know what I mean? I think like director versus producer, like what do you do? Because it is a direct connection to producing your life.
--:-- Will Packer: Yes, yes. And it's interesting because producing is actually the transferable skill that most people, whether you're in Hollywood or not, can actually use.
--:-- Will Packer: So what I tell people is that when you watch the Academy Awards, you've got all these different categories. You got the best actor, you got best sound, you got best director. At the very end of the night, the final award goes to Best Picture, and the producer wins that award because they were responsible for putting all those other people in the positions that they were in. So the producer is a big project manager. They're responsible for getting the money and hiring the director and hiring the sound person, hiring the actors. That's what a producer does. That's why I say you can produce a blockbuster life. Producing is putting all the things in place that create the ultimate thing, which is this life we all want to live.
--:-- Mel Robbins: For somebody that's listening who's like, "It's too late for me. I screwed up. I missed the window."
--:-- Mel Robbins: What would you say to that person?
--:-- Will Packer: I hear that so often. I was talking to somebody the other day, an incredible woman who is trying to figure out how to get her business off the ground. And she was like, "Will, I'm not in my 20s. I ain't in my 30s. I'm not going to tell you my age, but I'm at a big age." And I said, "Listen, in Hollywood, we have a saying that how they feel at the end is how they felt about the movie."
--:-- Will Packer: What that means is that... and you've been there, right? You ever seen a movie and it's kind of slow and it's like, "Okay, I'm going to stick through it." But it's taking a long time to get there. And what is all this exposition and all this plot? But then at the end, something amazing happens and you go, "Oh, now I see why all that other stuff happened." And you call and tell all your friends, "Yo, this movie is great. You got to see this. It's good. It's got a hook. It's got a thing. I don't want to tell you. You got to go see it."
--:-- Will Packer: The third act in movies are broken down by acts. The first act is what gets everybody's attention. That's why you come. It's starring so and so. It's about this. It's a rom-com. It's a horror. It's a comedy. That's the first act. The second act is when you get invested in the characters. That's when you get to learn the story. But the third act, that's when you bring it home. That's when you really determine whether or not you love that movie or not. Everybody in Hollywood knows that. The way you leave them feeling.
--:-- Will Packer: So many of us are in our second, third, and even beyond acts. But we're judging ourselves on what we did in act one. That doesn't even matter. The third act, that's how you leave people feeling. That's the value that people are going to attribute to you. You can't judge Mel Robbins on the first act of her life. I know that. You're very open and honest about that. Same with Will Packer. So whether you're in the first, second, or even third act, it's not over. You got to remember it's the way you end it. It is the way you leave people feeling about what your most recent accomplishments are. So it's never too late.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Well, what I also love about this is if you don't like how it feels, we know you're not in the third act yet.
--:-- Will Packer: There you go. That's right. You're not at the end. You still got more acts to go. You still got an opportunity to change and create a blockbuster life. Never too late to pivot. The power of the pivot. I'm a big believer in embracing that power. Your movie's not over. Your story is not over being told.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I absolutely love this. I love it because it allows you to think about where you are as if you're in a scene.
--:-- Mel Robbins: But this is not how it ends. If you're going to produce your life, you get to decide how it ends.
--:-- Will Packer: That's right.
--:-- Mel Robbins: In your book, you have this tool that you call "healthy arrogance." But I don't want to be considered arrogant. So what do you mean by that?
--:-- Will Packer: Healthy arrogance is the feeling that you belong in any room that you're in, no matter who else is in that room. Not to be confused with toxic arrogance, which says, "When I walk into a room, I'm better than everybody." "I'm a winner, you're a loser. I'm good, you're bad." That's not what we're talking about.
--:-- Will Packer: What it is is the belief that no matter who's in that room, you belong there because you have something that you're bringing. You have a confidence because that's really what it is. Healthy arrogance is an outside confidence in the uniqueness of you. The most successful people are confident. Not loud. You don't have to walk into a room and announce it, but you got to know it. You got to know, "I'm doing something and bringing something to this room that nobody else in here has. Nobody else in here can do the way that I do it."
--:-- Will Packer: And so when you walk in with that level of confidence, now you also realize that this room, not only do you deserve to be there, but the room is better because you're in it. And then you start thinking about how can I help to bring up the other people in this room to prove my worth and make the room better because of the thing that I do.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love something you just said because it's a framing that you can hold on to. Because I do think that if I really unpack this healthy arrogance, right? Because I was really thinking, okay, so for somebody who's like super insecure and doesn't have a lot of confidence.
--:-- Mel Robbins: A lot of people struggle with imposter syndrome. You walk into a room, you think you have nothing to offer.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love this framing. "The room is better because I'm in it."
--:-- Mel Robbins: That has nothing to do with intelligence or skill. It has to do with just your presence as a human being and knowing that that in and of itself is a value.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Is it fair to say, because I was thinking about this concept of healthy arrogance, if somebody struggles with self-doubt and this inability to really see something positive about themselves, right?
--:-- Will Packer: Mm-hmm.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Is the arrogance actually what it takes to be bigger than that self-doubt?
--:-- Will Packer: Healthy arrogance is internal, not external.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Got it.
--:-- Will Packer: It is not about walking in and everybody going, "Oh, look at that Mel Robbins. Boy, does she think she's the shit." I hope they don't say that. That's not what it's about. What it's about is Mel Robbins walking into that room and feeling like, "I've got an importance. I've got something." I got self-doubt because everybody has it. I got that little doubt devil on my shoulder telling me what I'm not, what I can't be, what I don't have. Healthy arrogance is the other thing. The angel.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Tell me how that angel talks.
--:-- Will Packer: That angel's not very loud.
--:-- Will Packer: That angel, that's what it is. We got to make it louder. That angel's going, "Go Mel, go Mel, go Will, go." Like, go. You got this. You can do it. Mel, I literally tell myself this. You talk about affirmations. I'm the king of self-affirmation.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Let's hear it.
--:-- Will Packer: I look in the mirror every morning. And I do a Will Packer pep rally. I have my own little pep rally telling myself, "You got this. You got this. You have the skills. You have what it takes. You're prepared for the day. You're prepared for whatever's going to come that you don't even know. You got it, Will. You're prepared for it."
--:-- Will Packer: I do that for two reasons. One is because it's the last time I'm going to hear it today. Because we just don't walk around with a bunch of people, unless you got a marching band following you around telling you how great you are. The second reason I do it is because my voice is the most important voice because I hear it from the most important person I need to hear it from. That is one of the ways that you can build that confidence muscle, even if you're not that person, because none of us are born thinking, "Oh, I'm great. I have what it takes to be successful. I deserve success." That's not something we're born with. You have to build it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Wait, so you did not... because being around you, Will, there's this just contagious, kind, effervescent possibility. Like, I believe everything you're saying. And I'm like, this dude must have literally entered the world with this wiring because it is so woven into your DNA. Is this how you've always been? Or did you... okay, well, take me back to the beginning.
--:-- Will Packer: I always had a dream of being really successful. And I didn't know what that looked like. I didn't know how to define it. But there was nothing about me or my life or my upbringing that said to me that that was in the cards for me. It just wasn't. And for me, it was like the possibility of success outweighed the fear of failure. And that's where I'm trying to pull people to and get them to see that the fear of failure is real. I get it. I understand it. I know depression and anxiety is something that all of us at different levels have to deal with. For me, I have this outsized desire for success. The "what if I'm successful" is what I listen to and what drives me. And it's louder than the "what if I fail."
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love that you were able to teach yourself to say, "What if this works?"
--:-- Mel Robbins: "What if I am successful?"
--:-- Mel Robbins: "What if I just keep going a little bit longer and it actually freaking happens?"
--:-- Mel Robbins: How would you recommend to the person listening?
--:-- Mel Robbins: That you cultivate this?
--:-- Will Packer: It's a muscle. It's a muscle like any other muscle that you have to build. One of my secrets is that I will fabricate momentum.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Fabricate momentum.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Tell me. How do I do it? Teach me, Will.
--:-- Will Packer: Too many times we're so hard on ourselves in thinking, "What if I fail? What if I fail?" Because we feel like, "Mel, Will, I haven't done anything." I want to go out and climb the mountain. That's my goal. I want to climb the mountain. I can't. I haven't climbed the mountain yet. Well, first of all, that goal is too lofty. The first thing to do is not climb the mountain. That's not step one. Step one is buy mountain climbing shoes. That's it. Step two, go drive by the mountain. Look at it. Take a picture. Think about it. Go home. You know what you've done? You've done two things. You've completed two steps. You got to tell yourself that. I did one. I did two. Slow progress is still progress.
--:-- Will Packer: I'll never forget the first movie I ever made after I graduated from college. I set a goal for myself for how much money we were trying to raise. We were going to raise $750,000. That was the goal. I couldn't raise it for the life of me. I didn't know anybody rich. I didn't have any money. That was the budget of the film, and I could not raise it. So what I did was, instead of a monetary goal, I set a date goal. I said, "Okay, whatever I'm able to raise in the next three months, by the end of June, when that comes, that's the budget of the film."
--:-- Will Packer: Mel Robbins, by the end of June, I had raised $75,000 whopping American dollars.
--:-- Will Packer: A long way and not enough money, especially back then, to make a movie. But guess what?
--:-- Will Packer: I shot a tiny, a tiny little $75,000 movie. That did two things. The first thing it did was it gave me something to show people that I could do. I was saying I was a filmmaker, but now I could actually show them I'm a filmmaker. The second thing and the most important thing was that it showed me I could do it. It showed me because I was like, "You know what? I didn't make it the way I wanted to make it. I didn't have the big budget. I didn't have the big start, but I made something. I did something."
--:-- Will Packer: Too many times we're setting a goal and we're saying, "If I don't accomplish that or I don't know how I'm going to accomplish that..." Fabricate some momentum. Get it going. Get started. Do something you can accomplish and then another thing and then another thing. Before you know it, you've got a little momentum. It's another way to trick our brains into saying, "You know what? I'm not in a cycle of failure. I'm in a cycle of positivity." All you did was buy some mountain climbing shoes or drive by that mountain three times. But you're on your way. You're closer than you were sitting at home going, "I'll never be able to climb a mountain." You're a little bit closer. That's the key, whatever your mountain is. For me, it was literally going out and making a tiny little movie so that I could prove to myself I could make something.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love that you're proving to yourself. Now, did anybody see it?
--:-- Will Packer: Yeah, a couple people.
--:-- Mel Robbins: A couple people?
--:-- Will Packer: It came out. It did. And you know what? I actually had success with that film. We actually went out because we hustled it. The other thing I believe is that you got to be willing to do what others aren't.
--:-- Will Packer: If you want to have what others won't, you got to be willing to do what others don't.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Wait, say that again. That was really good.
--:-- Will Packer: Yes. And this is my mantra of my family. My wife and I, we got four kids, so it's six of us. We're the six-pack. The six-pack mantra is: "If you want to have what others won't, you got to be willing to do what others don't." And so with that movie, we drove our little tiny movie city to city to city to city. We drove and stayed in little motel six, Super Eight motel, whoever would have us. And we would pass out flyers. We'd pass out flyers at nightclubs. We'd pass out flyers in churches. We were in the south, so a lot of times it was the same people at the nightclub that were at the church the next morning. It didn't matter. We were hustling. Nobody else was doing that at that time. So that's why we had success they didn't have. If you're doing what everybody else is doing, you're going to have the same sphere of success that they have. So you got to be willing to step outside your comfort zone and step outside the comfort zone of other people.
--:-- Mel Robbins: In that story, I'm sure there were a million lessons doing it that way. And relationships and everything else that you don't think about.
--:-- Will Packer: I still use it to this day. That's why I sit where I sit, because of what I went out and drove my little tiny movie city to city to city. And that's how I ended up getting on Hollywood's radar.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Will, you're amazing. Thank you for sharing that. You know, I want to hit the pause button real quick so we can give our amazing sponsors a chance to share a few words. And while you're listening to the sponsors, take a minute and share this with a friend. Will's on fire and he's just getting started and absolutely every one of us needs to develop this unshakable belief in ourselves and our dreams. And so don't go anywhere. Will Packer and I are going to be waiting for you after this short break. Stay with us.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are getting to spend time with the remarkable filmmaker and producer, Will Packer. There are so many incredible stories in your *New York Times* bestseller, *Who Better Than You?* And one of the first ones that I loved, and it touches on this idea of healthy arrogance, is the story about your student film, *Chocolate City*.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love this story for so many reasons.
--:-- Will Packer: Very first film I ever made. I was still a student. I was in college at Florida A&M University. And we made this tiny little movie. Literally, we just borrowed money. We used film that was sitting in a warehouse that nobody else was using. I mean, we had nothing to make this little movie. It starred us. It starred the kids on that campus. We were so audacious. And this is where the "who better than you" and the healthy arrogance comes in. That after we finished this little tiny nothing of a movie, we're in Tallahassee, Florida. We said, "Well, we made a movie. We got to have a premiere." That's what you have when you have a movie. You have a big premiere. We couldn't make it to Hollywood. We didn't have any money for that. So we did a premiere right on our campus. Use the resources available to you. Right on our campus at our student auditorium. And we invited all the students. But you had to dress up. You had to wear black tie.
--:-- Will Packer: Mel Robbins, these are broke college students. The audacity was a little mean. Now that I go back and think about it, because they all went out and did it. They went and rented tuxes and gowns because we said to get in, you got to wear formal wear. What it did was it told them, "Okay, you know what? They're taking this very seriously. So I guess we should too. It's kind of crazy, but we'll do it."
--:-- Will Packer: The other thing we did, we invited all of Hollywood. We invited all the major Hollywood studios. You name a studio: Sony, Warner Brothers, Paramount. We invited the heads of the studio. My mom, I'll never forget. My mother goes, "Well, baby, you should invite Oprah Winfrey." I said, "Mom, I don't know Oprah Winfrey." She said, "You don't know all those other people. You invited them. You invite this chairman of Sony Pictures. You don't know them? You invited them. You should invite Oprah." I said, "Okay, mom, I'll invite Oprah." I said, "But Oprah can only get a plus one, okay? Because I don't have that many seats." So I invited Oprah. I gave her plus one. She could have brought Stedman or Gail. Didn't matter to me.
--:-- Will Packer: I'll never forget, Mel. I am standing in the student auditorium of my first little film, *Chocolate City*, and I'm introducing it to a room full of students who are all dressed to the nines, who took it serious because I said they needed to. Because I said it was that important. And the entire front row is empty. Nobody's in the front row because I saved it for all those fancy Hollywood folks. Mind you, nobody told me they were coming. Nobody responded at all. But Mel, what if a fleet of private jets showed up at the Tallahassee Regional Airport the night of my premiere? I had to be prepared. I'm standing there. The front row is completely empty. But there is not another empty seat in the house. It is standing room only for everybody else in that auditorium. And that's when I realized, you know what?
--:-- Will Packer: I'm not making my movies for the front row. I'm making it for everybody else who showed up and rented those tuxes and ball gowns and sat there, some stood, and loved that movie. They loved that student film because they saw themselves on screen. Hollywood couldn't be bothered to show up.
--:-- I realized I was stepping over the people that were actually in my corner ready to validate me, looking for the validation of people who had brands and names and money and titles. I was looking for that external validation. How many times do we do that? How many times do we ignore the people that are around us, that are in our corner, that would support us because we're trying to get validation from people that we don't even know because we think their validation matters? Because we think they're so important and we ignore the folks that we actually should be pouring into.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love this story for so many reasons. And one of the things I want to hover on and make sure that as you're listening is how important it is to understand, especially in life, if you're going to put yourself out there or you're going to put your art out there or you're going to build a business or you're going to use social media for a different purpose than just sharing photos of your vacation and of your kids. We're often focused on getting a person in some C-suite or some influence or some somebody to see it. And you're missing the fact that it's just everyday people who are looking for your art, who you need to be talking to.
--:-- And if you can focus on the people that are meant to find you and expressing yourself and then welcoming in the people that come instead of wishing other people were there, you win. That's number one.
--:-- But there's a second thing that I want to make sure that we unpack. I believe that by reserving that row and actually extending the invitation and having, in your words, Will, a healthy level of arrogance, which means how dare you actually believe in yourself, right? How dare you hold the space that maybe, just maybe, somebody will show up. I believe that in acting as if you actually laid the foundation for them to be sitting there years later.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yes. Can you talk a little bit about that?
--:-- Will Packer: Yes. Because so many times we say the front row people aren't coming. They're not going to support me. I'm not going to get the deal. I'm not going to, nobody's going to watch my video. The right people aren't going to watch it. I'm not going to create the content. You make yourself small because you think that the possibility of success feels so far away. But if you don't even open the door to that, now, as I sit here, Oprah Winfrey is a friend. She didn't come to my Chocolate City premiere, but I've got multiple shows on her network now.
--:-- The reason that I sit where I sit is because I believed in myself enough to say, whether she comes or not, she should come. Because what I'm doing is important enough. And I acted like it was important enough. Because if I had just said, "I got a little movie coming, I got a little premiere, come wear your jeans and t-shirts and check it out and let me know what you think," people would have come, right? But they wouldn't have felt it was important.
--:-- Too many times we're making ourselves small and not forcing others to realize how important our dreams and our endeavors are. But it starts with you. They're not going to believe it if you don't. Why should I ever believe that what you're doing is important if you don't believe it? And I don't mean just believe it. I mean believe it so clearly and wholeheartedly that it's contagious.
--:-- That's the other thing. The healthy arrogance is internal, but it also manifests itself in a way that you walk into a room differently and people want to be around successful people. People want to be around people that believe in themselves, and you can be one of those people that other people then gravitate to. Changing your mentality will make people gravitate to you that you're not even thinking about.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I just had this huge epiphany listening to you. You ready? And I think I can translate this into a question that you can ask yourself, kind of like one of these gut checks. You've already given us "who better than me." I'm going to give you another one. If this were really important to me, how would I show up differently than I am right now?
--:-- See, I think in life, oftentimes we feel that something's important. And it could be something like you're a real estate agent. You have an open house this weekend. What does it look like if this open house is the most important open house you've ever done? You are a person who really wants to get into YouTube and creating a YouTube channel. Okay, well, what is the video you're going to post look like and sound like and feel like if it's important to you?
--:-- And I think a lot of times what we do is we put in, I can just say this for myself, we don't go all in because we're kind of afraid it's not going to work. And secretly, if you kind of half-ass it a little and you don't go all in, you can kind of blame that. You got the excuse. "I didn't really try. It's okay that it didn't work. I didn't go all out."
--:-- But what I love about what you're saying, this core principle around healthy arrogance, is cultivating belief in self. And so you can do that and you can call yourself out by saying, "All right, if this actually were really important to me, how would I show up differently to communicate that to other people?" And you talked about passing out the flyers and going around. That film, your first film for $75,000 was clearly important to you. And so you demonstrated that it was important by doing things that most people won't do. And that's a simple tool that I think can help you really check yourself. Am I operating with a level of healthy arrogance here? Am I acting as if this is actually important to me? And am I demonstrating that to people? Am I demanding that of people?
--:-- Will Packer: I love that, Mel. It's such a nuanced thing, but it is so important. The way you said it is so good because you have to go all out and show up for yourself. That's really the key there. You deserve to give 110% to whatever the thing is. Your dream deserves it. The endeavor deserves it. You deserve it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: How does somebody listening start to apply this to their life? Like, you know, you're working your job, you're paying your bills, you're taking care of kids, you still have big dreams. Maybe you want to write a book. Maybe you want to figure out how to make a million dollars and be financially in a... Maybe you want to go back to school.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You've already talked about so many different tools that you use. And this is clearly the way you move through life. How can somebody begin where they are to start to live this way?
--:-- Will Packer: Yeah. The first thing is the balance of life because life is so loud, right? So the first thing you have to do is you have to start to parse. You have to start to weed out some of the noise that's stopping you, right? Because there's so many people that can kind of see the dream, but it's fuzzy because the job is in the way, the family's in the way, the kids, money problems, there's stuff in the way. So I know the dream is down there, but I got to deal with this stuff around me first.
--:-- And I understand that because as a movie producer, you're always balancing multiple projects and everything's always going wrong. This is the life of a movie producer. I never get a call with people calling and saying, "Hey, just wanted you to know everything's going great on set. We're on time. All the actors showed up. Everything's great. I just want to call and let you know." I've been producing movies for 30 years. I've never gotten that call. Not once. Every call is some five alarm fire that's burning that is a disaster, right? So I'm dealing with all these disasters. That's how people feel in life. "My life is just a disaster, disaster, disaster, disaster," right?
--:-- So here's the thing. I believe you got to make the main thing the main thing. You got to keep the main thing the main thing. And what that means is that when I am getting all these calls about things going wrong with various projects, I focus on the thing that needs my attention the most. I can't put out three fires at once. I just can't. So I have to focus on the one that's burning the brightest or that is the most timely. And while I'm putting out that fire, I already know they're going to be calling going, "You're not over here. We need you. We need you." I can't do that. I got to focus on this. Then once I do that, then I can switch and deal with something else. You have to compartmentalize that. You have to do that in your life.
--:-- But here's the key, Mel.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Tell me.
--:-- Will Packer: Sometimes the main thing is you. Sometimes the fire that's burning the brightest is you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What does that mean?
--:-- Will Packer: If you're not okay, you can't help other people. And so one of the ways that you can kind of start to weed out all the noise is to keep the main thing at that moment, the thing that you're focused on the most. So we have to protect our energy circle. Then you can start to say, "You know what? At a certain point, my dream, my long-term endeavor, that's the main thing that I got to pour into today." And you got to know, the kids, the house, the job, they're going to be going, "What about me? What about me? What about me?" Because today, my main thing is my dream, is what I'm focused on, my endeavor, my next life level, my third act. That's what I'm focused on today.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You know, one of the things that was a huge takeaway for me in your book, *Who Better Than You*, is this notion of energy. It's a big thing that you talk about, keeping your energy locked on your vision. How do you keep your energy locked on your vision and what you want? Because you seem to be a master at it.
--:-- Will Packer: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. You talk about negative energy. We all have this, "I'm going to prove them wrong," right? "I am going to show them. I'm going to show the doubters and the haters and the people that didn't help me. I'm going to show them," right?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Right.
--:-- Will Packer: That's superficial. That only lasts so long, right? Accomplishing anything worth accomplishing is going to be really hard. It's going to be hard. Life is hard. It means that you have to have a drive that's sustainable beyond just, "I'm going to show you," right?
--:-- Will Packer: Because "I'm going to show you," it ain't lasting. What will last, though, is this is something that speaks to me that I want and I deserve, and I'm not going to stop until I get it, and I'm going to get it. That's sustainable. That's not me versus them. That is you pushing and cheering your own self on towards that goal. So that's how I do it. It's not about, "Let me prove all my haters wrong. Let me show them." That's not it. It is, "Will Packer deserves to have this thing that I'm going after. And I'm not going to stop until I get it." But I also am confident it's going to happen. I never let myself say, "It ain't going to happen."
--:-- Mel Robbins: It is kind of remarkable. You also talk about this skill of enrolling people in your dream. So how do you enroll other people in your dream, not by bragging, but by showing your success and why it helps everyone? What does that even mean?
--:-- Will Packer: You enroll other people into your dream by listening to them and their dreams. The most successful people and the most successful leaders get everybody in the room to roll in the same direction. People's favorite thing to talk about is themselves, everybody, right? Their favorite topic of conversation is yourself. And too many times we can't listen to what other people are telling us about themselves because we're too busy talking about our own favorite topic of conversation, our own selves, right?
--:-- I have found so much success by listening to people and listening to what's really important to them. And when I find out what's important to them, oftentimes there's a commonality. There's a synergy in what they're trying to do and what my ultimate goal is. And you got to know that your likelihood of success is far more likely if you have other people also working towards the same goal. Don't take a me versus them mentality. Take a we and an us. That's how you're going to be successful is getting other people to buy into the common definition of success.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Do you have a story of like when you had to flip from me versus how I enroll this and make this us?
--:-- Will Packer: Every movie that I have made, I've had to walk into a studio and I'm pitching them my idea for a movie that I want to make. Okay. One example is a movie I made called *Stomp the Yard*. *Stomp the Yard* was a dance movie. It was about fraternities and sororities that step. It was a stepping movie, took place in college, and it was a big dance battle. Nobody in Hollywood wanted to make this movie, Mel.
--:-- The way I got the movie made was by listening to the studio and hearing what they needed. And every studio told me no. And I went back again, because that's just how dogged I was. Most of them told me no twice. They walked, I walked in the room. They said, "Weren't you just in here? We said no, but like nothing's changed. What are you like? No, no again. What are you going to write it down?" All it takes is one yes though.
--:-- And there was one studio that had a dance movie that had worked for them the year prior. So I came in and I pitched my original college stepping movie as a sequel to their movie.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Brilliant.
--:-- Will Packer: That's what I pitched. And they loved it. It got me in the door. They said, "Oh, we've been thinking about a way to do a sequel. How would you do it?" I said, "Well, we'll take one of your stars from that movie, and then he'll go and dance in a whole other environment. And then he'll teach his style of dance. These other folks, you'll have a big dance battle." And that's what became *Stomp the Yard*. It wasn't a sequel. It became its own movie. But I had to get in the door by listening to them and what they wanted.
--:-- Everybody's focused on what's in it for me. So you use that to figure out how to line that up with what you're trying to do. That's what I did. I had to be malleable, right? I couldn't be rigid and say, "This is the only way that this particular thing can work that I'm trying to do." You got to be malleable. But if you get other people saying, "You know what, I'm trying to do this." And you go, "Well, you know what, I'm trying to do that. And if we do it together, we can all win."
--:-- That's literally what I did. I told, it was Sony Pictures. I said, "Sony, we can win together because you're looking for another dance movie. And I'm looking to make a movie that's set in a world of dance, right? Even though it's on a college campus, let's combine these." And they said, "Yeah, let's do it." Started off as a sequel. It ended up being *Stomp the Yard*. That was my first number one movie in Hollywood.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You know, this leads right into one of the other things that you teach in your book, that rejection is just data. And what I love about this story is that you now could look at every single no is the ability to listen and learn about what the person that you're selling to, or you're trying to convince of something, what actually matters to them because you're going to hear it in the no. And then you just pivoted. You write a lot about pivoting.
--:-- I want to read you from your book. This is page 31, *New York Times* bestseller, *Who Better Than You?* "One of the worst sounds in the world is someone telling you no. And I don't mean let you down easy. 'It's not you, it's me. Maybe next time.' Soft declines. I'm talking in your face, no holds barred, repudiation. 'Why me, Lord,' you might say to the heavens. Or pivot, because rejection forces you to do one of two things. Crawl into a ball of self-loathing and despair while crying, 'Why me, Lord,' to the heavens. Or pivot. Do something else that just might ultimately be the right path forward. Getting turned down stings and can make it hard to see anything but the pain of the rejection. But if you can put aside your sensitivities and your ego and focus on regrouping, a no could be one of the best things that ever happened to you."
--:-- Mel Robbins: Yes. It seems like this has happened over and over and over again. How has all these no's fueled your success? Like, I know Beyonce said no to you a lot.
--:-- Will Packer: Beyonce said no to me five times. So I call that the fortuitous no, right? A no that actually has value.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Can I ask a question?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Doesn't every no have value?
--:-- Will Packer: That's it. That is literally what I want to teach people. That is what I'm trying to teach people, Mel. Every no has value. But in order to find it, you got to get past the fact that you were told no. The fact that you were rejected, the fact that somebody said, "You're not enough, you're not good enough, your project, your idea, your contract, whatever it is, we're not doing it, we're not making it, we're not investing, we're not buying your product." You got to get past that.
--:-- Will Packer: By focusing on the why. By realizing that there's value in it if you realize why you got the no.
--:-- I had a movie. It was called *Obsessed*. And my good friend Idris Elba was a star. I already had my male lead. I needed my female lead. We heard Beyonce was looking for a thriller. We sent it to Beyonce. Beyonce read it. But she said, "Thank you for sending it. I'm not doing the movie. It's not the movie for me." That hurt. I mean, one of the biggest stars in the world. I mean, with detail, you know, it's like, "Well, I must not be good at this."
--:-- She told me no, but here is the key. She was gracious enough to tell me why. She could have just said no, right? And get out of my face. "I'm not telling you why."
--:-- Will Packer: But I said, "What's holding you back? Tell me why. What's the thing that's making this movie not for you?" And she told me. And she told me what the elements were in the script and some of the elements of the story and some of the other production things that were holding her back. And I said, "Okay, thank you. Got it." And then I went and I adjusted my movie. And I came back to Beyonce and she said no again. And she was very sweet. And she said, "Listen, I appreciate you making changes to your project, but I'm not promising you if you make all the changes that I'm ever going to do it. So don't do it for me. Do it for you."
--:-- And I told her, I said, "I am doing it for you." I said, "Because you're giving me actually really valuable feedback, because from your perspective as a big star who's considering this, like I may end up with somebody else, but hearing why you won't do it is helping me to adjust my project and it's actually making it better." And it did make it better.
--:-- And I took it back to her and she was nice enough to consider the project five times. By the sixth time, I had removed all the elements that stopped her from saying no. And I wish I could say I just wore her down. You don't wear Beyonce down. Beyonce is going to outwork anybody that you or I know or have ever met. Nobody works harder than her. So she would have said no a thousand times, right? Or just said, "Stop coming back." But she considered it. And on that sixth time, she said yes.
--:-- And what I realized was that I had a better project because I had gone through the process. I got Beyonce on the sixth time. I could have got Beyonce on the first time, but it wouldn't have been the same movie. Whatever your Beyonce is, your Beyonce may never say yes. However, if your project, if your thing is better by going through that process, then it was fortuitous. Then it was good. You're better for it.
--:-- Now, I had to do a cost-benefit analysis. I had to make sure the changes I was making were making it better and were worth it for what I was going after. Beyonce was worth it. We all have to do that cost-benefit analysis, right? Sometimes somebody may tell you no, and you may say, "Okay, they're not the person for me, right? It's not worth it to make the changes that they want." But it's valuable to hear why they said they're not going to renew my contract, why they said they're not going to buy my product, why they said they're not going to hire me.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Or date you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Absolutely. Or date you.
--:-- Will Packer: Somebody says they're not going to date you. You know what? That's valuable information. Rejection is data. Take it as data. Be a computer, right? Just be unemotional, analytical for a second. Take it all in. They don't want to date you? Fine. We'll never date them. But what is it about that person, that interaction, the way that you came off? What is it that we can glean from that that will make us better when we find the right person out there who we will date?
--:-- Mel Robbins: You know what I find fascinating about that story? That you actually went back five times. No, I just want to hover on this because, first of all, Beyonce was gracious in giving you the feedback, right?
--:-- Mel Robbins: And so clearly that says a lot about you and your reputation. But I think a lot of us, I think if we were in that situation, I might start to feel cringy at the third time. So what is it about the way you framed the request for feedback that might make the rest of us mere mortals successful when we hit that moment where it's like, "Well, I couldn't go back again. Or I'm really getting really annoying now. Or that person, I've shown this person a house 15 times. I can't call them again." You know what I'm saying? We stop ourselves from seeking it.
--:-- Will Packer: It goes back to what we talked about when we realize when we treat something as so important, it forces other people to acknowledge that importance and to perceive it the way you're perceiving it, right? You're showing the house for the 15th time because you really, really, really believe this house is right for that customer. I really believe, Beyonce, that this project has got a lot of potential. I really believe in it. So, I'm not, it's okay if you say no. I always made it clear, like, "It's fine. I just want you to look at it one more time. I just want you to read it. I adjusted the schedule. I changed some elements. I adjusted the script. I just want you to look at it. Would you please look at it?"
--:-- And she was like, "You know what? This guy's determined. He's dogged. But also, he really is passionate about this project, right?" When the realtor is saying, "I really do want you to, I know the kitchen's not perfect, but have you looked at the laundry room? Like, this is a one of one. Like, the master on main, the hardwood floors." Like, when you are impressing upon other people how important it is, they have to at least acknowledge that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You know what I love about this, too? We get so focused on people saying yes. And what you're saying is, no, no, no, no, no. Right. Put your attention on what's actually important to you and really show up in a way that demonstrates that this is important. And then every time you're talking to people, whether it's at work or in your community or in your family or your friend group, trying to get people on board, you're just focused on how important this is. And any piece of feedback actually can make it better. It's good. It's good feedback. That yes is more likely because you learn from the no.
--:-- Will, I am so glad that you are here. Thank you, thank you, thank you again for making the trip. I have so many more things I want to dig into from your remarkable book, but let's take a quick pause so our sponsors can share a word. I also want to give you a chance to share this with people in your life. Everybody deserves to believe in themselves. Everybody deserves to dream in color. Will is here and is motivating us and inspiring us to do just that. And we have so much more to dig into, so don't go anywhere. We're going to be waiting for you after a short break.
--:-- [Pause for sponsors]
--:-- Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your buddy, Mel Robbins. I am so thrilled that you're still here. Thank you for sharing this conversation with people that you care about. Today, you and I are getting to spend time with the remarkable filmmaker and producer, Will Packer. He is unpacking so many life lessons for us. And Will, I love your stories. And so where I want to go next is, is how Kevin Hart almost ruined your career when you were producing the blockbuster hit *Ride Along*.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What happened?
--:-- Will Packer: Oh my God. Kevin Hart, we're each other's most frequent collaborators, okay? He hasn't worked with another producer, director, as much as he's worked with me. And sadly, Mel, I have not worked with another actor as much as I have worked with my short little evil friend. And I say that with all sincerity, but of course, with the love that I have for the guy.
--:-- We're making this movie *Ride Along*. It was like the first time for Kevin Hart to show that he was a star. We were coming off an ensemble picture that we had made that had done well called *Think Like a Man* based on Steve Harvey's book. It was him and it was Ice Cube. Ice Cube is a consummate straight man, right? Kevin was the sole comedic driver in this movie. Everything's going great. We're there. We're shooting the movie. It's the biggest budget either of us had had in our careers. We are focused on this movie, right? One would think.
--:-- Kevin comes to me. He goes, "Hey, by the way, next Friday, I got to go do a little comedy show. So I was just wondering if I could get off a little early because I got the show Friday night." And I said, "All right, I'll check the schedule." I checked the schedule. And I'm going, "Well, wait, Kevin, we shoot on Friday. We got a late night. And we shoot Saturday. You know it's a big day because we can only get that location on Saturday. We talked about this." He goes, "Was that that day? Was that?" I go, "Kevin, you know it was that day. For a good actor, you're a bad actor. What are you doing? What are you telling me?"
--:-- He goes, "Listen, I got to go do a show out of town." "Out of town? Where?" "It's in New York." "New York? Kevin, no. You can't do a show in New York. We're in the middle of shooting." He goes, "Okay, I'm going to level with you. It's my big comedy show in Madison Square Garden. It's the first time. It's a special. They're filming it." I go, "What? You have a huge comedy show in the middle of our shoot and you're just now telling me?"
--:-- I realized he was telling me so that it would be so late that I couldn't cancel the Madison Square Garden show. And I had no choice but to adjust my schedule. Now, I had to shoot Saturday. I could not change the Saturday shoot. It was just that important. So I said, "Okay, oh, my God." He could tell I was freaking out. He goes, "Will, don't worry about it. I tell you what. Let's wrap early Friday. If you can get me out Friday, we'll go to New York. I'll go do the show. I'll fly right back. I'll be here for Saturday."
--:-- I said, "Wait, we? What do you mean we?" He goes, "Yeah, it's important enough. I want you to be there. It's a big show for me. By the way, you'll be there to make sure I get back on time." I was like, "You know what? He's got a point. If I'm there, I can make sure he doesn't get lost in New York, right? I can go up, see the show, we can come back."
--:-- Mel Robbins, we fly to New York. He does the show. The show is amazing. After the show, all of a sudden, I'm like, "Okay, guys, time to get back. Got to get on the jet. Time to go." Somebody goes, "Well, yeah, you know, Kevin's already committed to the after party." "What after party? What are we talking about? Who are you talking about? I got to be on set at 6 a.m. back in Atlanta. We're in New York. We got to go home."
--:-- Kevin goes, "Ah, it's just a small thing. I got to just walk through this after party. They're making me do it." "Who is 'they' that are not Kevin Hart or Will Packer, right?" I end up in a nightclub with Kevin Hart. Bottles are being popped all around us. The DJ is going, "Kevin Hart just sold out Madison Square Garden." People are going crazy. I'm going, "Kevin, we got to get out of here. What are you doing?" He's like, "Okay, let's go."
--:-- Right when it's time to go, Carmelo Anthony, legendary New York Knick, walks in with a bunch of tall dudes, bottles in tow. The waitress has got sparklers and everything. Carmelo walks right up to Kevin Hart. He goes, "You killed it at Madison Square Garden. We're going to die tonight. That's how hard we're going to party." I go, "Oh, my God. Oh, my God. My career is flashing before my eyes. Carmelo, we can't die tonight. Let's die tomorrow. Let's die after I shoot the movie. Not tonight. What is happening?"
--:-- Literally, I end up in a nightclub with Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Hart, and Kevin goes, "Well, we tried, Will." And I said, "I will kill you. I will strangle you in this club." What I realized, this is why I call him an evil genius, is because he got me to go to New York with him. Because if we don't show back up in time for that shoot and it's just him, the studio is going to be really mad at Kevin Hart. He's going to be in trouble and he's going to be on the hook for that money. But if the producer is there, Mel, if I'm there with him in New York, I allowed him to go. I'm complicit in this plan. It's all on me.
--:-- So when Kevin goes, "Well, we tried," I realized right then. I said, "You mother, you planned this shit. You did this." I literally, I begged Carmelo Anthony. Carmelo is freaking 6'10". I am not. I'm jumping up in the club begging him to let us off the hook to get out. "I gotta get him to the airport. I gotta." Carmelo goes, "Alright, I'm gonna give you a rain check, okay? But next time we're turning up, Kevin. We're gonna party. Get out of here." I had to get a police escort to take us from this nightclub to the private airfield at Teterboro and literally because I had to get there within a certain window or the pilots would have timed out, right?
--:-- Will Packer: There's only a certain amount of time they can be on the clock. I'm trying to get on a plane at like three in the morning. And so I'm like, guys, we got to get there in 20 minutes. It's an hour drive. Police escort. I beg these cops. We're screaming through the streets in New York. Get on the plane. Fly back. We finish the scene and the movie opens number one. You can't make this up.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You always seem to have the ability, which I think is a very unique ability, but it's a skill that you're teaching us, to be clear about the bigger picture and to be able to produce an outcome. And you had another very public experience at the 2022 Oscars where you were producing the show, where that shocking situation happened with Will Smith slapping Chris Rock. Can you put us at the scene? For you, you're running this thing. It's live. You've got a live audience. You've got social media. You've got the televised audience. You've got a show to put on. And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, something happens that you weren't expecting. What was that like for you?
--:-- Will Packer: Oh my gosh. It was easily the most challenging moment of my career. Easily. In the book, I talk about Rudyard Kipling has a poem called "If." And one of the lines is, "If you can meet with triumph and disaster and treat those two imposters just the same." What Rudyard is saying is that triumph and disaster are both imposters. Don't buy into abject failure. Don't buy into the perfection of success. None of that's real. You got to keep an even keel.
--:-- So when you ask about being in these tough moments, I always realize if I panic, then I am no good to anybody and there's no way I'm going to get through the moment. I can't panic. I produced those Oscars. And the thing you got to know about the Oscars is that it is a year of work before anybody ever sees the show. You are working, working, working. You're trying to get all the actors and the sets and the performances. It's a big, massive show.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Have you ever produced a big live show, or had you only been producing movies where you film and then cut it together and there's more control?
--:-- Will Packer: I had never done a live show on that scale.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And weren't you also one of the first Black producers to actually produce the Oscars?
--:-- Will Packer: Absolutely. Myself and an incredible woman named Shayla Cowan. She was my producing partner. We were the first all-Black producing team to produce the Oscars. So there's a lot of pride in that.
--:-- Mel Robbins: A year leading up to it.
--:-- Will Packer: A year leading up to it. I think I got it all under control. I know what's going to happen. Because the Oscars are so big, you're planning out every second of the show. I knew what was going to happen every second of the show.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Are you behind the scenes? Do you have one of those big walkie-talkie things NFL sets use? You're not sitting in the audience like, "Oh, I did a good job."
--:-- Will Packer: I wish. No. So when you produce the Oscars, you're literally just off stage.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And are you wearing a tux?
--:-- Will Packer: Oh yeah, you dress up, yes. So you're wearing a tux and you're just off stage with the headset. You're talking to your camera people. They're doing live editing. There's a director telling people where to look, where the cameras to go.
--:-- Will Packer: And you got all this paper in front of you. So that's me, I'm just off stage. When Chris goes on stage, we had rehearsed the show to within an inch of its life. So I knew everything that was supposed to happen. He immediately went off script. Immediately. But it's Chris Rock. So if anybody's going to go off script, you figure, you know what, let's see what happens. It's okay. It's Chris Rock. He's amazing at improv. So he immediately goes off script and I'm not sure where he's going.
--:-- He tells a joke about some other actors and he tells a joke about Jada, Will's wife. The first time I knew that something was amiss was that he told the joke and Jada didn't laugh. And the camera was right there on Jada. You got to remember, I'm in the back and people are in my ear and I'm hearing, okay, we're going to cut here, cut here because we know where everybody's seated. So whatever Chris said, we were just going to cut to that person, even on the fly. He made a joke about Jada. We cut to Jada. You can see Jada's reaction on the screen. It's not good.
--:-- That's when Will goes up on stage. And I thought like everybody else that it was a joke. I didn't think it was real. I was like, okay, that wasn't that funny. So these guys who clearly know each other, they have history, they got to play this off somehow. I'm still thinking as a producer, I'm thinking, okay, how can we make a joke out of this? How is this going to be funny?
--:-- It wasn't until Will went back to his seat and he does the famous line where he says, "Keep my wife's name out of your effing mouth." People asked me, "Well, why did you show that on TV? You knew Will was mad." And I try to tell people, when you're doing a live show, it's like a tennis match. You just follow the ball. Chris made the joke. We cut to Jada. We cut back to Chris. Will walks up. We're just following him. We don't know what's going to happen.
--:-- When he sat back down and yelled it out, the camera had no place else to go. Every other actor in the theater that night at the Oscars was aghast. I couldn't go to Charlize Theron. She looked like she had seen a ghost. Nobody looked normal. So I had nowhere to go, Mel. The camera cut to Will. He says that, that's when everybody knew it wasn't a joke. He was clearly upset. And that's the moment where I said, "Oh shit." And I immediately went into damage control and conflict mitigation. I immediately, as a producer, said, "Okay, I got to finish the show." That's where I went.
--:-- Mel Robbins: When you're in a high pressure situation, whatever it might be, you might not be producing the Oscars with hundreds of millions of people watching. But when you go into a situation you can't control, if you're going to get through it, you got to keep your wits about you. How did you do that? Because one of the reasons why I was really curious about this moment in your life is that you're right. I'm not going to be producing the Oscars. The person listening may never do that, but we might be at a wedding where somebody's mother-in-law gets drunk and sounds off. You might be in a big pitch at work and somebody blows it. You might be at a family dinner or on a date and somebody goes off script and you're sitting there with that pit in your stomach. Especially if it's something you've worked so hard on. It's your wedding and the mother-in-law gets drunk and goes off the rails. Or it's your pitch and you've worked so hard on it for months, and then somebody comes in and totally messes it up.
--:-- Will Packer: If you're in that situation, you immediately have to say, "What can I control?" When you're in a situation and the unexpected happens, immediately ask yourself, "What can I control right now in this situation?" I can't control what just happened. I couldn't control what happened with Will and Chris.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It's already happened.
--:-- Will Packer: Happened. What can I control? And I immediately went to a place of, "I need to finish the show."
--:-- Mel Robbins: You know what I love about this? It's actually applying what you've already taught us, which is you said you have to stay focused on the vision and the biggest fire. The biggest fire and dream and thing that you have in that moment is, "I got to finish the show."
--:-- Will Packer: That's right. That is what I can control.
--:-- Mel Robbins: And in the conversation about the wedding, "I want to get through this day and have a great day." And that's what I'm going to focus on. So you picked the thing you were going to focus on, which is "I got to get through that show."
--:-- Will Packer: Finish the show.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Does that help you settle?
--:-- Will Packer: Yes. In the book, I write about this and I say every disaster isn't a failure. It was a disaster in the moment, but it wasn't a failure. It took time later for me to say, you know what, there were a lot of great things about that show that I accomplished. It was the most diverse show in Oscar history. I had legendary winners. It was the first time a deaf actor won. The first time you had a queer Latina actress win. We had things at that show that you typically don't have because I had put my stamp on it. And none of that had anything to do with that moment.
--:-- If you can get past the moment that feels like, "Oh my God, this is unmitigated disaster. Everything has gone. The world has exploded." If you can survive it, I promise you, your work will not have been in vain. If in the moment, gather yourself, breathe, let go of the things you can't control, focus on what's the main thing. This is the fire burning the brightest. I got to get through. For me, it was, "I got to finish the show. I got to make sure I can't let this derail the show." Everybody stay focused, guys. Who's next up? Make sure that other actor is ready to come up. Present the award. We'll go to commercial break. When we come back, make sure you're ready. Amy Schumer made a great joke about it. If you go back and watch the show, I talked to her about it. "Give me something. Give me some levity on this, Amy." She was great in the moment. That's what you have to do. We got past it, and we finished the show. That was my job.
--:-- Whether it's that or it's at the family reunion and the drunk uncle who you told not to come. You said, "Do not come, Uncle Jeb." Here he comes with a bottle of Jim Beam and you know what he's on. When that happens, you got to say, "What can I control? Can I remove him? If I can't remove him, how can I mitigate how much damage he's going to cause?" Because I got to get through the situation. That's what I was thinking.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love that because it's also bigger. I think what happens in life when you have a situation where other people have something going on and it impacts the way that you think things are going to go, you can't control the other people. And we tend to get sucked into that. Then we lose sight of the bigger picture and the impact to everybody else that's around. So I think it's a really amazing reminder to all of us that it's very easy to get hijacked by what's happening between people or with one person and lose sight of the bigger picture of steering yourself past it, knowing that you'll figure out what just happened later.
--:-- What I love about this is that it also teaches us that you need to act like the thing that you're focused on is important. Because when you take your eye off the ball, let's say you're out to dinner and you got a little drama with some friends over here. When you turn toward that drama and you join in, that now becomes important. When you are grounded enough and have a healthy level of arrogance that you know what is actually the higher priority, that's where you keep your focus. It all goes back to prioritizing you and knowing that you deserve something that is above and beyond that conflict that's happening. Who better than me to stay focused on what's important here and steer us through this thing? I love that.
--:-- You know, one of the things that you write about a lot in the book, and I believe in this, but I can't wait to hear you talk about, which is "do the work when no one's watching." What does that mean?
--:-- Will Packer: We live in an age where we all are looking for immediate validation. And social media gives that to us. People tell you a great story and it's like, "Well, where's the pics? You didn't post about it." Pics or it didn't happen. It is the work you put in when nobody is watching that makes everybody pay attention later. You're going to get the attention, but you got to wait.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You have a great story in the book about being an intern on a movie set. Could you tell that story and why it's so important to do the work when no one's watching?
--:-- Will Packer: Absolutely. My very first movie, that movie I made, *Chocolate City*, when the front row was empty, I finished the movie. I had it done. I'm on the set of another movie. The movie is called *Ride*. It was being produced by the Hudlin brothers, famed movie producers. They produced *Boomerang* and *House Party* and other stuff. And I'm interning on the set and I walk up to Warrington Hudlin and I have my movie. And I say, "Mr. Hudlin, I'm a filmmaker and I just wanted to see if I could pick your brain." You could see his eyes just glaze over. "Here we go" is what he's thinking. And now I know what that's like because I get a lot of people that approach me like that. And I know he's thinking, "Here's another filmmaker. I don't have time for this," or "I'm not in the mood in the moment," until I pulled out my movie. And it was a little shrink-wrapped VHS copy of the first movie I ever made, *Chocolate City*. And I handed it to him.
--:-- As soon as he saw that movie, he immediately changed. And he said, "Oh, you've already done something." He said, "Oh, you've produced a movie." And I said, "Yeah, that's what I was trying to say when I was in college." He said, "Stop." He said, "In Hollywood, everybody's talking about what they're about to do, what they're going to do, what they're planning to do." He said, "You got to be a doer, not a talker. This shows me that you've actually done something."
--:-- Mel Robbins: Social media applauds the talkers. It gives validation to people who are going, "Well, just you wait. I'm working on this. New chapter loading. New business on the way. Just you wait. I'm working on it." Stop talking about it. Don't be a talker. Be a doer. Everybody's talking. Do things. Show me what they're doing.
--:-- So what would you say is the most important thing for anybody, particularly early in their career, or somebody that wants to have a creative job? What would you say is the single most important thing that they need to be doing right now?
--:-- Will Packer: I ran a marathon last year.
--:-- Mel Robbins: You did?
--:-- Will Packer: I did. I turned 50 last year and it was on my bucket list. I said, "I've been talking about running a marathon. I'm going to finally do it." It damn near killed me, but I finished that thing. I ran a marathon and I realized that a marathon is such an incredible metaphor for life because life is all about execution, especially if you are going into a challenging industry or creative industry. Life is all about execution.
--:-- When I stood at the starting line of that marathon, I had the perfect shoes. They fit so good. I had gone to a custom shoe shop. I had the right socks. I had a headband. I had the right dry fit, moisture wicking t-shirt on. I had all the things that I needed. I was so prepared. Being prepared at the starting line is like having a great idea. Nothing matters until you run the 26.2 miles. Having a great idea is like having the perfect shoes at the beginning of a marathon. It doesn't matter until you actually go out and execute it, until you actually go out and do it.
--:-- Everybody's trying to make sure they got the right Instagram-worthy hat and shoes and tank top and sweatbands, when all that matters is, are you going to finish the race? Are you going to execute? That's the advice I give to people. Execution is the key. Go out and do it. And remember, it's okay if you don't start great. It's okay if the first act isn't as great as you wanted it to be. Even the second act could use some improvement. What are people going to remember? How you finish.
--:-- When I tell people I ran a marathon, they go, "Oh my gosh, wow." They don't say, "Well, what did it feel like at mile three and a half?" They don't say, "Hey, were you sweating a lot at mile 19?" Nobody says that. They go, "You ran a marathon? You finished?" And I go, "You're damn right I did." Because that's what matters. The execution. We get too caught up in everything else that doesn't matter. Focus on the execution.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love that. And remember, preparation paralysis is real. What that means is oftentimes we feel like, "I'm not ready to do the thing because I'm not prepared. I don't have everything lined up, so I can't take the step. I can't cross the starting line because I don't have every last element." You'll never have everything, ever. Sometimes you got to take the leap. You get as prepared as you can, and then you got to go.
--:-- Will Packer: Because we talked about climbing the mountain. You can have the right shoes. You can have the water canteen. You can have the rope. But until you get on the mountain and you grab hold of a spot and the rocks slip, until you feel the cold air on your face, you don't know. You'll never be prepared enough to not take some form of risk. There will always be unknown. Some people get paralyzed in the preparation stage. That's preparation paralysis. Because it feels like you're doing something. But you're just getting ready to do something. Getting ready is fine, but at some point you got to do something. There are people that have been preparing to do the thing for 10 years.
--:-- Mel Robbins: What I love about that story is this. I think oftentimes we get so paralyzed with thinking that it's got to be perfect. It's got to be a hit. It's got to be the best thing I've ever done. And we're focused on that. Let's just take *Chocolate City*. It's a student film. But I think we often get to that moment and then *Chocolate City* doesn't become the blockbuster that you want it to become because it's not going to. It's just your student film. But it is in service of something that is to come later. It is in service of that moment when you hand over the tape.
--:-- Perhaps as you're listening, you're working very hard at something and you're not getting the result or you're not getting the accolade or you're not getting the yeses that you deserve. I think having this mindset that maybe this is your *Chocolate City*, maybe this thing you're working on now is in service of something greater that's yet to come.
--:-- Will Packer: Absolutely. Leading to another level of success. Somebody listening, watching right now feels like they're not successful and they couldn't be more wrong. They couldn't be more wrong because you have to define success for yourself. Too often we allow everybody else to define success. What is success? Well, it has to make X amount of dollars. Well, it has to get this number of views. No, you define success. You define success for yourself. Sometimes the fact that you got it done, damn it, that's the success. And there's nothing wrong with that. Define it for you.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I love this. You as a producer put together all the pieces for these huge blockbuster movies. And one of the things that you have to choose is the cast. And you say, "Choose your cast in a movie and in life wisely." What that means is that you have to constantly be looking at and evaluating your circle. I believe that people are either augmenting your energy, making it better, or they're draining it. I think it's binary. I think there is no in-between. The folks around you, you have to pay attention to them because the ones closest to you are those that can help get you to the next level or make sure that you'll be stuck in the same rut.
--:-- Part of the reason I wrote this book is because when you understand that you deserve success, you understand that you deserve to be around people that also are contributing to your success and also have a successful mindset. I'd love to hear how has community and having a community of supportive cast members around you played a role in the way that you move through life, played a role in the way that you do business and your success overall?
--:-- Will Packer: It means everything. I am only as successful as I am because of the people around me, because of that community of which you speak. It's my family. It's my incredible wife. She is my rock. My support system is everything. To the extent you can control it, you got to know it's important.
--:-- Mel Robbins: One other thing about your career that I find incredibly inspiring, because Boston is not exactly a media town. Not exactly the home of podcasting. I love the impact that you and many of your friends have had on the city of Atlanta and really creating an epicenter for creators, for filmmakers, for producers, directors, actors, basically an entire industry outside of Hollywood based in Atlanta. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think a lot of people may feel this way: "Well, I don't live in LA. I don't live in New York. I don't live in London. I can't possibly do that thing." So talk a little bit about just breaking apart that excuse.
--:-- Will Packer: Start where you are. Period. Full stop. Start where you are. Atlanta right now today is the busiest on-location production hub in the United States.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Wow. I didn't know that.
--:-- Will Packer: Absolutely true. It was not like that when I started off, when I moved to Atlanta some 30 years ago now. It was not. Start where you are. You don't have to move to a place that has traditionally been a place where whatever it is you're trying to do works. You don't have to, especially now when you can get the word out digitally in ways that you couldn't before. Start where you are. Don't let the fact that you're not in a location that is conducive to the traditional version of what you're doing, don't let that be an excuse. In fact, I think it's the biggest opportunity, to not be where everybody else is.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I couldn't agree more. I love it. Start where you are. Be a doer, not a talker. Let's get going. Will, I'd love to have you speak directly to the person that's been with us, soaking up everything that you're sharing with us. What is the most important thing you think for somebody to do?
--:-- Will Packer: Adjust your mindset so that you realize there is not a person on this planet that is more deserving of success than you are. Not one person. I don't care how big they are, how famous they are, how rich they are. There is not a person on the planet who deserves success more than you.
--:-- Will Packer: And you got to mean it. You got to believe it. You got to believe you're the most important person on the planet to achieve the success. And I don't mean sort of successful, a little bit. I mean outsized success. Life is hard and life is short. Let's dream. Let's dream in color. Let's go for it. What if you get it? What if you get it? Stop saying, "What if I fail?" and start saying, "What if I succeed?" How cool would that be? You deserve to succeed.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Will Packer, what's your parting words?
--:-- Will Packer: My parting words would be, don't let your current situation define you. Don't walk into a room and question whether or not you deserve to be there. The room's better because you're in it. When you adjust your mentality to one that says there's no one better than me, you will be seen and heard, not just listened to. And when you ask that question, "Who's better than you?" you will realize that you can then supersede your paycheck, your circumstances, and your environment because you deserve to.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I want to hang out with you all the time. You have supersized, outdone any expectation. I knew you were going to be amazing. I am so blown away by your conviction, by the takeaway, by the teaching, the life lessons, and the passion and confidence that you have in our ability to create a blockbuster life. I believe you. I do believe you.
--:-- Will Packer: You make it easy. Mel, you are one of one. I am telling you now. I get it. I see why. The people that are gravitating to you, don't you ever leave. Stick with Mel Robbins. She sees you. She sees you. I can vouch for it. It's real. I'm in the room. I know it. I can tell it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I'm going to pay that right back to you because it's the truth. I receive that. Thank you. That is just the highest, highest, highest compliment you could pay me. And I think you see that because you actually see that person too. So thank you for showing up. Thank you for being here.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh my gosh. I also want to thank you. Thank you for making the time, finding the time to be here with me, to be inspired by and learn from Will. Thank you for sharing this with people that you care about. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you and your ability to create a better life. There is no doubt that if you take what Will taught you today and you apply it, you will create a blockbuster life because you are deserving of it. Alrighty. I will see you in the very next episode. I will be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. I'll see you there. Here we go.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. Mel Robbins is reading my book, people, okay?
--:-- Will Packer: I am. I just need a moment to just... that's cool to me. Go ahead, girl, read it.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Is Trace in here?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Tucked in her little corner like a mouse over there. Tracy, mighty mouse. You guys, you're over here making a grilled cheese sandwich. Do you not hear me dropping these gems? What is happening?
--:-- Will Packer: What's up, ladies?
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, let me have one last sip of that sucker. I love that. I love that. Trace, I have to go to the bathroom real quick. I'm super hydrated.
--:-- Will Packer: You're killing it. I could talk to you forever.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Are we doing all right?
--:-- Will Packer: I'm loving it. I'm having fun.
--:-- Mel Robbins: It was called *Trois*?
--:-- Will Packer: *Trois*? Yes.
--:-- Mel Robbins: *Trois* as in *ménage à trois*?
--:-- Will Packer: Yeah, okay.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, you're... we went right there.
--:-- Will Packer: Well, come on. Let's not use the P word, okay, Mel? It was tasteful erotica.
--:-- Mel Robbins: I'm not sure how tasteful it was, but let's just call it erotica, okay?
--:-- Will Packer: Oh, my God.
--:-- Mel Robbins: Blah, blah, blah. Well, back on the record!
--:-- Mel Robbins: Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. SiriusXM Podcasts.
