Secret Service Agent Explains Psychological Tricks To Read Anyone & Spot A Liar

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Hey, it's your buddy Mel, and boy, oh boy, are you in for a fascinating experience today on the Mel Robbins Podcast. Because you're going to spend time and learn from a woman who is a former Secret Service agent, and not just any Secret Service agent. She has protected five U.S. presidents. She was also a member of the Secret Service's elite polygraph unit. You want to know what that means? It means she was trained to be a human lie detector for the U.S. government.

Mel Robbins: Now, there's only a handful of people living today that have that level of training. And she is here to share everything that she has learned from her training and her remarkable professional experience. You're about to get a master class in how to decode body language, how to spot a liar, proven strategies for displaying confidence, being more influential, the tactics you need to get the truth out of anyone. She's also going to teach you something called false bravery and why that matters, and the importance of paralinguistics, which means don't just listen to what people say, but you're going to learn how to scrutinize how people say it.

Mel Robbins: You know, it's not every day you get to spend time with and learn from somebody with such a remarkable expertise. And by the time you're done listening, you will know how to use these tools to stop being driven by your emotions, cut through the BS at work and in your relationships, and become a braver you.

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and I'm so glad that you're here with me today so that you and I can spend some time together. It is always an honor to be able to be with you. And I just want to acknowledge you for choosing to listen to something today that could help you create a more meaningful life. And if you're a new listener, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I am so glad that you're here and you're going to be glad that you tuned in to listen to this episode because you're going to be learning from a fascinating person today with such a unique life experience, who has so much to teach you.

Mel Robbins: Evie Pompouris is a former special agent with the U.S. Secret Service who has served during the presidential administrations of President Bill Clinton, President George W. Bush, and President Barack Obama. She has also served on the Secret Service details protecting former presidents George H.W. Bush and Gerald Ford. Her extensive and decorated career includes operating undercover, complex criminal investigations. She was an interrogator for the Secret Service's Elite Polygraph Unit, which means she has been specifically trained in the art of lie detection, human behavior, and cognitive influence.

Mel Robbins: She is also a best-selling author and professor of criminal justice. You might even recognize Evie, because when criminal cases grab the world's attention or breaking news makes us all wonder, who's telling the truth? Every single news network on the planet has Evie on speed dial to analyze body language and critical verbal cues that suspects, politicians, and celebrities are sending so that you can tell when someone's lying.

Mel Robbins: It's a real honor to have Evie here, because Evie has received the United States Secret Service Valor Award for actions as a first responder during the 9-11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center in New York City. And I am so excited and grateful that she has made the trip to our studios here in Boston, to give you a masterclass from over three decades of decoding body language for some of the most elite law enforcement agencies in the United States. Evie, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Evie Poumpouras: Thank you, Mel. I have been admiring you from afar and online like a stalker that the Secret Service would take out. So glad to be sitting here with you. I'm very humbled. Very humbled. Thank you for saying that.

Mel Robbins: Here's where I want to start. Could you tell the person that is listening to us right now, how does learning the skills that you're going to talk about, like knowing when somebody's lying to you or displaying confidence, how does that change your life?

Evie Poumpouras: So all these things, confidence, reading people, that in itself, it makes you steady. It makes you grounded. So I think that that's where a lot of this is going to lead people to. A lot of the stuff I share are things that were taught to me by very exceptional people that helped me on my path and still help me to this day.

Mel Robbins: You have a remarkable career. So when you were a little girl, were you like, I want to be in the Secret Service?

Evie Poumpouras: No, no. Like I was like, I get pulled over by cops. I'm like, who's this bozo? Literally in my head. I may have even verbalized it. Nope. Didn't know anything about law enforcement. My family was not in it at all. I know sometimes people have a plan. I never had a plan.

Mel Robbins: How did you even get into this career?

Evie Poumpouras: So I was on the subway. I'm going downtown Manhattan to a job that I got right out of college. It was underwriting for AIG. I don't know if they're still out there. If you are, I'm sorry. Not for me. I was in a cubicle sitting there and I'm thinking, I can't do this. And so the subway doors open, literally, maybe I'm on that job several weeks, two months, subway doors open, cops hanging out, his beer belly, because back then they had beer bellies. I see the guy, I'm like, I can do that, literally. And so I go home that night, 2-1-2 recruit. I call him like, hello, you guys hiring? No clue what I was doing, zero. And I just went with it. So one thing, I've never been afraid to just go and figure it out. That's how my journey started. And from there, I was like, oh, maybe I could do FBI, DEA, CIA. I actually replied to all of them. Secret Service was the one who hired me first.

Mel Robbins: What I find fascinating about that story is that everybody who doesn't feel like they're in the right place in their life thinks that you're supposed to know what you want. And oftentimes I find it's just knowing what you don't want. And you knew, I don't want to be in that cubicle. And I love the metaphor of the doors opening because I think your life can change like that.

Evie Poumpouras: Oh my God, I didn't even think of that with the doors opening. Yeah. And you walked through it.

Mel Robbins: And I would imagine that what you would see over and over and over again, both in your training for the Secret Service and as you were an agent working on some of these elite units in the Secret Service, that things do change in an instant, which is why it is so important to take everything that you're about to teach us today to heart. What are some of the big takeaways that you have that are important when it comes to the way that a U.S. president or somebody at that level of success and power thinks and acts?

Evie Poumpouras: So I was very lucky because I was around three current sitting presidents. I started when Clinton was actually still president, but then you're also around the former presidents. So you get kind of dished out to help with those. And then also foreign heads of state. So when foreign heads of state come to the U.S., you're around them. You don't realize it, but you become what you're around. And so as I was around them, like you would watch the way they would move, the way they would deal with problems, the way they would deal with people.

Evie Poumpouras: I think probably the most remarkable thing I would see is you'd be with the president, whichever one it would be. And we'd be literally in the White House and they'd have screens in different areas and you'd be standing there and he'd be right there and there'd be a screen up of the news and they'd just be destroying him. He's an idiot. He's this, he's that, right? Whichever channel it was, depending on whatever president was, because it changed. And he'd be right there. Most of us would be like, oh my God, I can't believe they're saying this about me. I can't get out of bed. And that could not fly. So I really learned resilience and I learned not to take things personally. I think that's probably the best gift.

Evie Poumpouras: I think people today and a lot of times when people approach me, they'll tell me stories like they really go through it. It's not to invalidate what they say, but everything can't penetrate your soul. Like it just can't. And I learned to understand what mental armor is and to understand what you can and can't allow in. So resilience is key. I never saw a U.S. president lose it, break down, get into the fetal position. None of it. Like they always held their grace. And so the second thing I learned is to lose well, like have class when you're losing. Have class.

Mel Robbins: Evie, I want to stop you right there to make sure that the person listening really gets the takeaway because I love what you're teaching us. So number one, you said everything can't penetrate your soul, that you get to decide what you allow in and what you don't. And I can see that mental armor, right? Mental armor going up and really kind of protecting your emotions is a way that you put up this force field and you don't let the outside in. It's almost as if you're teaching us the importance of being your own secret service agent.

Evie Poumpouras: Yes.

Mel Robbins: Where you observe, but you don't let it penetrate you. I freaking love that. That makes you more emotionally resilient. Second thing that you have taught us by being around all of these world leaders and seeing what you've seen is learning to lose with grace. That when you don't let your emotions get the best of you, when you have some class, when you are able to make a bad decision and not just beat yourself up or you're able to lose because you are going to lose in life.

Evie Poumpouras: Yes.

Mel Robbins: But you have grace about it. It's a way for you to build strength emotionally where you don't just have everything destroy you. And I love these lessons. And so I just wanted to make sure that the person listening or watching us got them. And I've got a follow-up question. What else did you learn from the world leaders that you were protecting while you were in the Secret Service in those big and small moments, witnessing their lives professionally and personally every day?

Evie Poumpouras: I also learned less is more. Like, listen, pay attention. The other thing I also learned is ask for help. Like the president is not expected to know everything. And I think we think I have to know everything because if I don't know everything, then I'm not smart. I lack confidence. I'm, you know, people see through me, yada, yada. And what I learned is they're very good at delegating. I don't know everything, but you are the secretary of defense. So you tell me how many men I need and what weapons we should be sending. You're the secretary of treasury. Then you advise me on the currency, inflation and all that. So I learned that I didn't have to know everything, but I learned that you have to be a good manager and delegate and ask for help. Like it's not a weakness.

Mel Robbins: Based on the way that you're describing all these stories and the way that I personally just imagine what life as a Secret Service agent must be like. And I'm sure as you're listening to Evie, you're also kind of conjuring up these images. It sounds extraordinarily stressful. How do you manage your stress? Because I would imagine that you're kind of in a constant state of stress when you're in this kind of high pressure job.

Evie Poumpouras: You prepare so much to put yourself in these situations, but you also make peace. Like there's an understanding that something could go wrong today. Something could happen. Anytime you got into the follow-up, which is the vehicle that was behind the president's limo and you would armor up and you would have your weapons. I think those were very vulnerable situations where somebody could attack the motorcade. So the motorcade, whenever it was in movement, that was like where it's the most vulnerable. So anytime you're moving, you're the most vulnerable. So I think those points were kind of like you have those moments where you're like, all right, everything's okay. And I mean, whenever something was wheels up, meaning your protectee was up in the air, you were kind of like, okay, he didn't die on my watch. Because there was always that psychological thing that I don't want to mess up. I don't want to make the wrong mistake. I don't want to make the wrong call and then have somebody else's life on my shoulders.

Mel Robbins: Did you have any techniques that you used? You're sitting in the follow car, you're armored up, you got your weapons in your hands. You're like, this is my watch. Don't let anything happen. Don't let anything happen. Don't let it. Because I would imagine you would just be on high alert the entire time, ready to go. How the hell did you keep yourself calm and centered when you're in that situation?

Evie Poumpouras: Because I'm in a truck with dudes who make terrible jokes. Like they just make the dumbest, stupid jokes. Like, hey, Papadopoulos, like you couldn't even say my name. I'll make it pompous. Yeah, whatever. You know, we would laugh. You had to laugh. Everything can't be so heavy. If it's heavy, you're just not going to make it. So I would sit and I would listen to them. And if I tried to say something, shut up, Papadopoulos, make sure like we don't get shot at or whatever. So I was around people who carried themselves well. And so I carried myself well. I learned from that. They're steady. I'm steady.

Mel Robbins: It's humor and lightness to create the calm and ground.

Evie Poumpouras: But at the same time, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking, I'm looking. And then there were times where you couldn't joke around where you were in a movement or something and you really just had to be present. And I think maybe that job and certain intense activities we do when you're fully present, you don't have time for your mind to wander. Sometimes afterward, you're like, oh man, that was heavy. But in that moment, you find your ways. But also Mel, they've put you in really bad situations in training. Like they don't just put you out in the world. Hey, let's see how she's going to do. They really try to stress you out in training repeatedly to see how you're going to react. And even then, you don't know how somebody is going to perform in a real life situation. There's times like the person you would expect to just fly through something completely falls apart. And then someone else who you think like, oh, she's going to be a mess, holds her ground. So you don't know what people are made of until they're truly tested.

Mel Robbins: I think that's true in life and everywhere.

Evie Poumpouras: Everywhere.

Mel Robbins: I would love to learn more about how you were trained to be a human lie detector. You served on this elite polygraph unit for the Secret Service, and you went through training to truly understand whether or not somebody is lying, to pick up on body language, behavioral clues. Can you tell us a little bit about the training and what you learned in terms of detecting whether or not people are lying?

Evie Poumpouras: Yes. Well, I didn't want to do it because in the service, there was only like 30, they call them examiners. And it was a massive load because they went to you when they had really hard cases. So the responsibility was heavy. And so not only are you doing a polygraph and interviewing, then they're all watching through the glass. And you're thinking, man, what if I don't get anything? What if I don't deliver? So I was like, nope, nope, nope, don't want it. And I truly thought, you know, nobody would talk to me, I thought I would not be good at it.

Evie Poumpouras: And I remember, there's a, I think there was called a bid where it's like, positions open, put in your name, and it was open for two weeks. And I waited till like 15 or 30 minutes before it closed on a Friday, like 4:45 PM before I put my name in. And I for sure was like, I'm never getting this. And when I got it, I remember having like, excuse me, like me, because there were military guys with military experience, more senior people who put in and they didn't get it. And so I was really surprised when I got it.

Evie Poumpouras: So when you go through that, the selection process, then they send you to, it's called the Department of Defense Polygraph Institute. It's a military facility, actually. It's Fort Jackson. I know they changed the name now. They call it NACA. But you're there and you go through schooling, biology, psychology, like graduate level courses, and you'll do biology in a week and a half and you have to take a midterm and final. It was intense. I remember first, when I first went, I thought, you know, they're like, here, read this textbook in biology and then next week you have a test on it. I was like, these dudes are lying. It's going to be open book for sure. There's no way they expect me to memorize this textbook. And then sure as shit, I go in the next week and I'm like, this is not open book. And they're like, no, what did you think you were doing here? So that part was hard.

Evie Poumpouras: We had pharmacists coming in to teach us, which I thought was really cool because when people, especially when people are under the influence of drugs, which a lot of the people I would have to interview would be, they were not always sound, you know, mind and body because of the element of crime and whatnot. So I had to learn what drugs did what things to people. And so I became like this expert in pharmaceutical drugs. So that was pretty amazing. And then they teach you how to, I don't want to say confront, but how to deal with lies, how to confront someone, how to deal with people who disrespect you in the room. And we also did a lot of practice. And then the service also wanted me, they encouraged me to get my master's in psychology, forensic psychology as well. So I think all those things together help me understand people and human behavior.

Mel Robbins: So before we get into the strategies and tactics, can you explain why does body language matter when it comes to whether or not somebody is lying to you?

Evie Poumpouras: Look, it does and it doesn't. The research goes back and forth. A lot of researchers will be like, body language is BS when it comes to detecting deception. It's true. And it's not true. Here's what I know. People give off cues. Okay. Right. So I'm hanging out with you. Like we met before. I'm paying attention to Mel, how she walks, how she hugs me. Like you hugged me. You're based. So I get like a baseline on you, right? I start to, in the few minutes I get to know Mel, I get her baseline.

Mel Robbins: And what are you looking for when you're assessing a baseline? Because anybody could use this. You could use this on a first date. You could use this in a business meeting. Everywhere. Okay, great. So let's start with a scenario where you're walking in and you're about to meet somebody and I want to just get a baseline. What are the data points I'm kind of looking for if I want to size somebody up?

Evie Poumpouras: Okay. So I'm not sizing you up. But I'm going to use Mel because Mel, Mel, Mel, we're using Mel. So when I walk in, Mel, immediately you come over, you're open, right? You weren't holding anything in your arms. You didn't have your arms crossed. You were very open and welcoming. So immediately you see me, you didn't even, you know what else you didn't do? You didn't try to be busy in a corner somewhere and let your peers come over to greet me first. Like Emily met me at the elevators, but that was it. As soon as I walked in, actually you came right away, Evie. So it's not like your team started handling me. So to me right away, I'm like, she's very comfortable, she's very confident, she's very warm and welcoming. Immediately I like her.

Mel Robbins: But you feel people, do you not? Do you not feel people vibration to the essence of what they give off?

Evie Poumpouras: I think that a hundred percent right.

Mel Robbins: And what's interesting about you reflecting back on just that literally 10 seconds was that today I'm exhausted. I mean, we've been hosting my parents. We've got all kinds of stuff going on. I'm more tired than normal. I was up late talking to my daughter in Los Angeles, who's going through a really rough thing right now. And so I am happy to hear that I just instinctually walked over to you and that the experience for you was that I was open, I was warm because I know that's who I am, but I didn't think about how I would greet you. And so it's interesting to hear how many data points you had in that short interaction. And also it is true. I think we walk in and you feel the energy of someone. And if it's warm and inviting, you're immediately at ease. But if somebody is a little stiff or crossed arms or formal or tense, then you start to go, oh my God, something's wrong with me. You know, like, I think we reflect it back on ourselves. What's wrong with me?

Evie Poumpouras: Yes. Right. So what should we do instead? I think quiet and just so here you're going to absorb people. And I'm not talking about empathy where you take everybody's stuff on and then you feel like garbage later. That's not what I'm talking about. But when I say absorb, I mean, feel people's energy. People give stuff off. It's a real thing. It's a legit thing. Feel it. Number one. The two is body language. So your body language, you're open. Your arms are open. They were out. They weren't in your pockets. It's you, you were, your body language communicated what your words communicated. They were in harmony. So what you said to me, Evie, I'm so happy you're here. Thank you so much. I'm so excited. That mirrored what your body did. So there was, so right in that moment, I'm like, it's all genuine. It's not a formality. I'm not another guest like, hey, okay. You know, all right, get her in there. And you immediately stepped forward where maybe your peer, your team could have taken me, brought me in here and you could have made your entrance. Evie. Hi, I'm Mel. How are you? Some people do that. Right. You did none of that.

Evie Poumpouras: So when somebody gives you either weird energy or they are kind of open, but body language is off and you're reading something's off, pay attention to it. First, don't make it about you. Okay. Because that's when we're like, they don't like me. They don't this, they don't that. And that's where you start going down that rabbit hole.

Mel Robbins: Yes.

Evie Poumpouras: And then that's like, it's good to be self-reflective, but not so self-focused because then we start to make everything about us. And sometimes most of the time, nothing to do with us. So allow people to be and look at them, listen to them. How are you today? You can ask like simple questions. Tell me about your morning. How's everything going well? And then people can reveal slowly, you know what? I really had a tough morning or, oh, this is going on. I was up late. And then now you know what's going on with that person. So we want to see if people are off harmony, meaning what you're saying and what you're showing me with your body. And then also what I feel from you is not in harmony. I just have to pay attention and we don't call people out ever. Like, I mean, as in that's a rule, don't call somebody like, hey, you see, you know, I just want to be careful because sometimes we think like, I know all this body language stuff, right? And I'm going to call everybody out and be like, and I know when you say this or when you look away, you just looked away. And that must mean it's like those cues are there for you to gather information, not for you to reflect back to someone and be like, let me show you how much I'm paying attention to you and how smart I am. So despite me having this background, I never tell people what I see. I told you because you asked me, but I don't tell people. You want to make people feel uncomfortable? Tell them. You want to make people feel like you're analyzing them? Tell them. You want to make people feel that you think you're better than them? Tell them. We don't need to do that. It's for you to understand the people around you and who you're dealing with so you can make smarter decisions with people. That's what this is for. Does that make sense?

Mel Robbins: It makes a lot of sense. And what I'm gathering so far is that there is all this power in settling yourself and observing and in letting people show you and not reacting. And, you know, you said something really important. You're meeting somebody for the first time. You're in a situation where you're on a date or you're meeting your significant other's parents for the first time or you're going on an interview or whatever. You're pitching a client, interviewing a babysitter, the baseline and just giving yourself permission to observe, to get data and not read anything weird as if it has to do with you is a power move. And I think a big mistake a lot of us make is that when somebody else is off, we let it make us get off. And what you're saying is absolutely not just observe, keep being in the mode, pretend you're like, it's almost like, because I think of a Secret Service agent. And I think about dark suit, sunglasses in the corner, seen, maybe, definitely not heard. And so there's a cool confidence that comes from doing this in your life. Are there any cues though that for you over the years became kind of a telltale? Like I had always heard, for example, that if people look away, they're lying to you, which of course made me go, wait a minute, I have ADHD. A lot of times I will look away, gather my thoughts, come back. I also think it can be really disarming for people if you're staring right at them like a prosecutor or an attorney on cross-examination. But are there telltale signs with the eyes?

Evie Poumpouras: So this is like such BS, the whole eye thing. It's like, I know, like it's a marketing thing. Think of it this way. Like, how can everybody do the same exact thing with their eyes? Like if we're preaching diversity and we're all so different and we're all so unique, then how on earth is everybody going to behave the same way? So here's the thing with eye contact. How a person does eye contact depends on that person. I could have grown up shy. I could have grown up being told I was stupid. I could have been, you know, have grown up being hit a lot. So how I'm going to look at someone is going to be kind of a marker of everything I've experienced in my life. That's why that doesn't make sense. I could have ADHD or autism. I could have, there could be so many reasons.

Evie Poumpouras: So the thing with eye contact is there's two parts. One part is when you're looking at people, let people be. Like, you know, sometimes you ever have a serious conversation, maybe with your kids and you're trying to talk to them and they're doing the, they're doing this on you. And you're like, look at me when I talk to you. You want to try to refrain from doing that because that's just them releasing stress, releasing energy. You're also getting a really good baseline on what they do when they're stressed out.

Mel Robbins: Oh, yes.

Evie Poumpouras: Now, when you want to teach them, hey, when you talk to people, I want you to have good eye contact because it conveys trust. It conveys authority. That's different. So we're talking two different lanes. One lane is reading people. Just let people be. Don't correct them. Let them go where they're going to go. They'll show you. So before you asked me a question before we started, what did you ask me, Mel?

Mel Robbins: You asked me, what am I excited about?

Evie Poumpouras: Right. And I had nothing. And I broke eye contact with you. And I looked down because you know what I was doing? I was searching my mental Rolodex and I'm like, do I, but I had to break eye contact to do that. So I could really go into my head. I'm not about to lie to you. That's just what I do. So that's reading people. Right now. Eye contact when it comes to you, right? Right now I'm your guest. So even though I would presume that maybe eye contact is hard for you, but you're like, Evie's my guest. I want her to know I'm here and I'm present. So I'm going to do everything I can to keep eye contact because it shows I value her. It shows I'm here, that I'm present. That's separate. And so eye contact for you as an individual, like if you're going out there for an interview or a meeting and you're really trying to build trust, eye contact hands down builds trust. It's just we're wired that way. If you're looking at me, it means that I can trust you. Right? So those are two things reading people, we leave them alone, but we pay attention to what they do.

Mel Robbins: So now you know, every time I ask Evie a question where she has to think about something, it's likely she's going to do what break eye contact because she's searching her mental Rolodex. That's just what she does.

Evie Poumpouras: Yep.

Mel Robbins: But when it comes to how I show up, I'm going to be here, I'm going to be present, I'm going to look at you. I'm going to show you, Mel, you matter to me. Mel, you can trust me because I'm going to look at you. And it's also a great way to show respect to people. Evie, I am learning so much from you. This feels like a great time to take a break so that we can hear a short word from our sponsors. But don't you dare go anywhere because Evie is going to teach you how to read people. And then where we're going next is really deep. And you don't want to miss this. Stay with us.

[Break]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back, it's your friend Mel, and you and I are here today with Secret Service agent Evie Poumpouras. We are talking about how you can read people, detect lies, and tap into your power. So Evie, on the topic of reading someone, what are the list of things that you're assessing?

Evie Poumpouras: It's such a hard thing to answer. So look, there's body language overall. Just look at what they're doing with their body. Simple things, even how when they're talking to you, are they frontally aligned?

Evie Poumpouras: So we're frontally aligned right now. Meaning we're like squared off against each other.

Mel Robbins: Yes.

Evie Poumpouras: Frontally aligned, shoulder to shoulder. That's a good way when you talk to someone to have that. You don't want to talk to people like this or like this or like that or on our phone. We don't want any of that. [To the listener: She literally pointed her body away from me.] So it's like talking at somebody on the diagonal. She then twisted and pointed her shoulders in the other corner, which basically signals I'm either not interested or I'm nervous or I'm thinking about something else.

It's just when it matters to you, when those conversations matter, you really want to be deliberate with your body language. You want to show with your body to people what you're saying, that those things need to be in harmony. And for me, I really don't care what people say. I look at what they do. And so that's the other follow-up that's actions that's separate, but with the body you want to have, if you're reading people, you just want to look at what they do with their body. You get their baseline. You can get somebody's baseline in just a couple of minutes. You can see, do they like to have their arms crossed? If I could stand all day long with my arms crossed, I would, that's like my comfortable position, but I don't do it because psychologically I understand it gives off the wrong energy or vibe.

Mel Robbins: Yeah. And as you're talking, I just want to say, what's interesting is that you have this ability to both go, okay, as I'm observing someone else, these are the things I look for to get a baseline and assess what kind of person this is. What is the energy? What is their emotion? Is this somebody whose energy is trustworthy? Is it not? Are they sketchy? What's going on with that person? And the same exact things that would signal, I don't know if I can trust this person, they do the same thing to you.

Evie Poumpouras: Yes.

Mel Robbins: And also are the same things that you should not be doing if you want to display confidence.

Evie Poumpouras: Yes.

Mel Robbins: So it's like almost sort of common sense. Like if somebody's not looking you in the eye or their body is pointing toward the door as you're trying to have a serious conversation.

Evie Poumpouras: That's called a fleeing position, by the way.

Mel Robbins: A what?

Evie Poumpouras: Fleeing position. So when you're speaking to someone and they're leaning... So right now the door is here to my left. So we were doing the interview, Mel, and I'm like this the whole time, sitting at the edge like this. Mel, you know, I'm like, he doesn't want to be here. That's called the fleeing position. When I would interview suspects, a lot of them would sit in the fleeing position because they just wanted to leave. Their body literally was showing me, I don't want to be here.

Mel Robbins: Well, if you've ever talked to a kid and they're in trouble and you're sitting at the island in the kitchen.

Evie Poumpouras: Fleeing position.

Mel Robbins: Fleeing position. Absolutely. So it's kind of common sense almost that the things that you do when you're not interested or when you're lying or when you're done with a conversation, somebody that's not that interested in you or might be covering something up is probably doing to you.

Evie Poumpouras: They are doing. And I think what you said is important because everyone's so fixated on them and how are people treating me and what are they doing to me? And we don't pause to think like, yeah, hello, you're the other half of the equation. Did you pause to think how you're presenting yourself? Because it's a reaction and you have to think thoughtfully, what am I doing? And what are they seeing? How am I showing up for this person? But we sometimes become a bit more very egocentric. We think like we're the sun and then everybody revolves around us. Pause and think like, how are you showing up? How are you speaking? Are you present? Are you looking at them? Are you doing these things? And even if you are, and they're not reciprocating what you think they should do, leave people alone. Let people be.

Why? Because if I want to have an authentic conversation with you, Mel, I'm going to let you do you, Mel, so that I can really see who you really are. So there's a theory almost that if you center yourself and you're in a place with people where you show up aligned with your best intentions and you're observing and you're creating this space for someone else to be and operate how they're going to be and operate in that moment, people's behavior reveals the truth. You don't have to work so hard when you just let people show you.

I remember once when I first got into this business, I left the U.S. Secret Service and I went to meet with somebody from a management company. I was going to look at managers and I took my husband, who's another interrogator, government person like myself. We go, I'm like, come with me. We're in LA, we sit down. And within like three seconds, he and I instinctually knew like this dude could care less that we're in this room. He has no... He's in this room because somebody asked him to meet with us and he did it as a favor. So we ended that interview really quickly because I knew right away, I'm like, this guy could care less. He's not even remotely interested in representing me. So at that moment, I didn't make it about me. My feelings didn't get hurt. He called it in. It was a favor called in by somebody who knew me. I thought he wanted to meet me. He clearly showed me he didn't. I end the conversation sooner rather than later and I leave and I don't waste my time trying to make the relationship work, trying to follow up with an email. He showed me. He also showed me he's not going to work hard for me. He showed me that. I'm like, if you're this excited about me now, forget about it later. Even if he's like, fine, I'll do you as my entertainment attorney a favor and I'll take you on as a client. No, I don't want you because you just showed me what it's going to be like working with you.

Mel Robbins: This is brilliant because we are all in the mode of chasing. That I got to prove to you that I'm worthy of your time. No, confidence and being able to get a baseline is observing whether or not somebody else is worth your time, whether or not they're displaying interest. I want to go to the situation where you may be administering a polygraph. Your job is to get the truth. As somebody's sitting there and you're going through a polygraph exam, you've got colleagues that are watching you, you have this steely confidence where you're administering the test. Are there specific things that people do with their eyes though, that do indicate that their words might not match the truth? Like signaling that happens?

Evie Poumpouras: We'll do an example. So I'm sitting here, I'm interviewing you, Mel. So I'm like, hi, Mel, I'm Evie, good to meet you. So one of the things I might do is like, Mel, where are you from? Where were you born? What's your date of birth? What's your address? So you answer these questions. As you're answering, you're looking at me, you're nodding your head up and down. I got Mel's baseline. So Mel, tell me about what happened on the night of March 15th, 1998. Now I watch what Mel does. You're likely going to shift a little bit because I just asked you to do what? Recall something from the past. So in that moment, I'm going to watch what does Mel do when she's accessing her memory. That's one. So I'm collecting information. I've got who Mel is, the beginning part when she's not threatened, name, date of birth, etc. Unless you're lying, of course, which happens.

Then I might ask you, how do you feel about being here today? Are you doing all right? Is there something I can get you? So then I'm going to get a baseline on how Mel reacts or what you show me when you're emotional. You might start crying. You might be angry. You might be frustrated. Mel, tell me what you know about this case. Tell me what you think happened.

Mel Robbins: I'll tell you what, sitting here right now I feel like I'm in an investigation and I'm about to get my ass thrown in jail. Have you always been this scary in your confidence? You have like a death stare. It is amazing to be in the presence of somebody who is emotionally settled because it makes me nervous about the fact that I might not be.

Evie Poumpouras: That's good.

Mel Robbins: What do you mean?

Evie Poumpouras: That's good though. To some degree. You want to be steady enough to... Here's the thing. We want to be warm towards people. You want warmth, but you also want people to... you want to keep people on point from time to time. Because when we don't, that's when we get taken advantage of, we get betrayed, we get rolled. It's a dance. So do I want people from time to time to be like, oh, I don't want to cross Evie, I don't want to mess with Evie, I don't want to harm Evie? Because you want to give that off because that's also a way to let people know like I'm not that person. That's a good thing. So it's finding a way to be both.

Mel Robbins: How do you do that if you're somebody who has spent a lifetime feeling insecure? Because I agree, you don't want people to take advantage of you. You don't want to get played. You don't want to get scammed. And it happens in small and big ways to people every single day. So how do you, if you've always been insecure or you've been taken advantage of, how do you start to build this?

Evie Poumpouras: I think first, there's no way to never be insecure. Maybe think of it differently. You're not going to get it every time. Even myself, there's days where I'm like, meh, I should have seen it or I gave that person a chance. But then I rectify my behavior. I think where people get screwed a bit is when they see it, they don't course correct. That's something else. So you have to be okay with messing up. You have to be okay when people pull the wool over your eyes. You have to be okay with that. You have to be like, oh, he won, I lost. It happened. Lesson learned.

Mel Robbins: I think that's also strength. It's not just lesson learned. What you're saying is lesson applied.

Evie Poumpouras: Yes, but I also have to not be so hard on myself.

Mel Robbins: Why is not being hard on yourself a good thing when it comes to making sure that you become stronger and braver in the future?

Evie Poumpouras: Because I'm beating myself up and I'm giving myself more anxiety. I'm making myself more insecure. And then I'm also telling myself, you dummy. That's what I'm saying to me. You're a dummy. You should have known better. That's not good. And the whole like, I should have this, I should have that. My husband's very good with that. He's got this rule like nobody ever says I should have. He's like, in that moment, you make the best decision you can with the information you have. And I think that's having faith and trust in yourself. So instead of beating yourself up, you just remind yourself, I made the best decision I could with the information and the situation that I had.

Mel Robbins: Yes.

Evie Poumpouras: And if you mess up, which we all do, being like, I messed up, I will do better, but then do better. It reminds me in training, when you messed up in training, sometimes they'd give us these shooting scenarios which were really stressful. They would create these Secret Service compounds. We had cities that we called like tiny town where we do simulated attacks or out in the open where we do these attacks. They were very stressful and designed to be very realistic. Everyone's there. Everybody's watching everybody's moves. And when you get attacked, depending on the position, you had to memorize who goes where, under what circumstances, depending where the line of fire is coming from and what weapons to use and where the counter assault team is coming from and where the shift is. There's so many elements. So you're being attacked and at the same time, you have to know your choreography and you would mess up. So in training, they call you out, be like, hey, you were supposed to do this. You did this. It's wrong. This guy's dead now because of you. Don't do it again. And they move on. Nobody has time to sit and feel bad. Move on. So it's like, learn, feel it. And maybe you go home at night and I'm like, man, I messed up on that. That guy could have died if this was a real life scenario. If you continue to dwell and beat yourself up, you actually won't move on and do better. You're going to make it worse the next time. You make yourself insecure. How messed up is that, to live in that place?

Mel Robbins: You know what I'm laughing about? Is that we sit here and beat ourselves up over forgetting to get the milk or the butter on the list at the grocery store. And you're sitting here going, oh, I screwed up. The guy could have died. Okay, let's move on. You are so centered and steely and just grounded. It's amazing. And I want to dig more into confidence when we return. But let's hear a short word from our amazing sponsors. And Evie and I will be waiting for you after a short break. So stay with us.

[Break]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back, it's your friend Mel Robbins, and we are here today with Evie Poumpouras, who is a Secret Service agent who has served under the administrations of three sitting presidents and she is trained as a human lie detector. So Evie, one of the things that you have been trained when it comes to lie detection, as you're interrogating somebody, are there verbal cues that people give you that signal they don't know what they're talking about, or they're covering something up?

Evie Poumpouras: There are verbal indicators. There were some things people would do. And this sounds terrible, but it's true. And there's no research to prove this. It's just something we'd see. Like any time somebody showed up with like a Bible in their hand for an interview.

Mel Robbins: Oh, yeah.

Evie Poumpouras: So if you bring a Bible to an interview, we would call this the divine prop. Anytime somebody would do that, right away it's like that guy's going to fail for sure. Or if in the interview you'd hear like, I swear to God, God is my witness, my grandmother's grave, language like that. It was always like, all right, this person did it. Those were little clues that... There's no science behind it, but these were things that we knew over time. You would hear things like that because the truth is typically simple. You don't need to swear to God or bring your Bible in to tell me the truth. You don't need to sell it to me. If you didn't do it, you didn't do it. I understand you're going to be nervous. But if I say to you, Mel, did you have donuts this morning for breakfast? And you're like, Evie, I swear to God, I swear to God I didn't do it. I swear on my mother's grave, I didn't do it. I'm kind of like, I just asked you if you had donuts. So those types of reactions with people, you pay attention.

Or if you ask your kids a question. Hey, Oakley, did you do your homework?

Mel Robbins: Who me? Homework?

Evie Poumpouras: Stalling tactic. You know it intuitively. So that's a stalling tactic. We do that to buy time to think about what I want to say. So those are good verbal indicators. Why is this person stalling?

Sometimes when people put possessive words, like instead of saying the car versus my car. If I hear my car, that means that person likes their car. If they say the car, they don't really like the car. So those are little things that people will do. There are indicators in language to listen to.

And then also when you ask somebody a direct question, this is the biggest thing. Did they actually answer your question? I think a lot of people don't. They move on. Or they say, I didn't say that. Or they come at you.

Mel Robbins: It drives me crazy. Do I need to start polygraphing people for you, Evie?

Evie Poumpouras: Yes.

Mel Robbins: But it drives me crazy when you're asking somebody something and then they change the subject or they say, well, I never had time. And I'm like, I didn't ask you about the time. I asked you if you know what you're doing. And so there is a disconnect between the question I asked and the answer being irrelevant to the topic of the question.

Evie Poumpouras: But there you go, though. You just got intel. Why aren't they answering you? Something's wrong. They messed up. They didn't do it. They forgot. That's info. All of it.

Mel Robbins: And see, I think that for me, I feel like the harder thing to try to detect in people is the omission. The overt lying feels like something that would be easier to start to notice when you do what you're teaching us.

Evie Poumpouras: Don't be so jacked up when you meet somebody. Slow down. Get a baseline. Focus on how you're showing up. Notice. Give the person the space to be. Gather data in terms of what the baseline is. And just use your common sense. Is their energy matching their body language and what they're saying? Are they giving you a vibe that you like? You have so much that you can just absorb based on common sense. And then also don't go back in and make it about you. Always just be on the observing.

We self-sabotage ourselves. We're so... I don't want to say this, but the self-development space, it's a great thing. I like books like that. I read, I listen, I want to learn. But if you're so in the me, me, me headspace, no, no, no, no. Because you're not seeing things. So you also have to find a part of you where it's like, Mel invited me. I drove all the way from New York City. She wants me here to be her guest. There's a reason I'm here. I walk in, I bring my best self in. I don't walk in... I say hello. I control the parts of me that I can. And then after that, I also have to surrender a bit and then understand that Mel is the other 50% of the equation. 50-50. But if I'm so self-focused and I make the whole thing about me and I'm not paying attention to you, I'm not reading the room. I'm not looking at your colleagues and even just the tone of the team. How are people feeling? How do they move in the room? Because that's another indication too, of the synergy of the environment.

Mel Robbins: Because sometimes people can shaft you. Hey, come on in, the charmer, which is something you really should... Those are like certain cues, certain behaviors with people. Those are definitely red flag cues. How do you know a charmer?

Evie Poumpouras: So I interviewed Jim Smith, who was a detective for the Canadian police, and he did serial killers. He did all sorts of confessions. We were talking about one of his cases, Russell Williams, and he got a confession. This guy, serial rapist, murderer, all that. And he was actually a military commander. Anyways, one of the things I asked Jim, I said, what part of human behavior, of all the types you've met, what was the thing where you're like, oh, I got to look out for that person? He's like the charmer. The, hey, how are you? I'm here. That person who's very overt and charming and trying to very much ingratiate themselves with you. Those people always... Why are you trying so hard? And those are true. The charmer falls into a little bit of that. And I'm going to say this from a clinical perspective, a true narcissistic personality disorder or an antisocial personality disorder, which is people who you would call a sociopath or psychopath. Some of them have that trait, not all, but you'll see it there.

Mel Robbins: So how do you get the truth out of anyone?

Evie Poumpouras: It depends what you're asking. Do you want them to verbally say something to you? Because you cannot tell me something verbally, but you just showed me the truth. And that's all I need.

There was somebody I was working very closely with and someone I liked a lot, I considered a friend, but I was also trying to do work stuff with. And she would say a lot, but her actions were very different than what she would say. She had very strong boundaries, but when it came to if I had like, hey, I'm not available, it was like, what do you mean you're not available? I'm like, dude, you turn your phone off at five on a Friday. And then I'm in another country and you're kind of losing it. So with people, I don't physically have to have somebody tell me the truth. They can show me the truth. So with this scenario, there were so many indicators with this person. I never actually had a conversation where I said, you need to tell me blah, blah, blah. They gave me so many indicators through their actions and behavior that it was enough for me to collect intel and say, nice human being. I like them, but they're not for me. And you know what I did? I just quietly pulled back because it was too hard of a relationship to have. I never had that conversation. So I think people feel like in this day and age where it's like, speak up, tell everybody, like why? You can just pick and choose when you're going to do it. Sometimes it's not worth it at all.

Mel Robbins: Can you truly tell how somebody feels about a situation or another person?

Evie Poumpouras: Mostly it's observing. It also depends. You look at their performance. So let's say it's an employee, just look at their performance. You can try to help people as much as possible. Sometimes you can't. They'll show you what they're willing to do and not do.

Mel Robbins: I think that it's easy to ignore the behavior. It's easy to ignore the kind of output of somebody's behavior and make excuses. And so I keep coming back to this theme with you as I'm having this experience and you're just being you. So I'm giving you the space to be you and you have this steely confidence and settled nature where if you are grounded, people reveal themselves. And you can really decode just about anything if you're paying attention.

Evie Poumpouras: Let me say one thing.

Mel Robbins: Sure.

Evie Poumpouras: Because you brought up the confidence thing a few times. There are times where I'm not sure, but I'm still steady in myself. Sometimes we invest in people and we want to believe in people and we want to trust in people. And then sometimes what is right there in front of us, we don't want to see it.

Mel Robbins: No, I don't want to see it. I'm going to keep and keep and keep and keep. And then I get pissed off at you for not being what I want you to be, meeting my expectations. Then I get angrier and more frustrated. And then I'm also mad at myself for being in that situation. And on and on and on that cycle goes. I'm nodding because I really resonate with that. How do you break that? So let's say that because you've mentioned personally, too, that you were trained in how to deal with lies. So when you realize that what somebody is saying does not match what they're doing, how somebody is treating you does not match what they said. Somebody is talking all about boundaries, but they're crossing yours consistently. How do you confront that? When do you know to call somebody out versus to back away?

Evie Poumpouras: So sometimes you do have to call people out. So in those moments where you have to deal with someone, let's say it's your team, and you have to address certain things, it's okay to address things. And I think that that's another important thing. First you make the decision. Do I want to deal or not deal? If I don't deal, what are the consequences? It's always better to deal with things when they're small, especially when they're people or a circle of people that you have to deal with, like a team or family member where you're like, this person's not going to go anywhere. So when problems are small, deal with them because what happens is they get bigger, bigger, bigger, and then you get angrier, angrier, angrier. And then it becomes this big problem and you're like, you've done this, you've done that. And then you get frustrated. So one, when you have small problems, address them because they're small. That person now knows you're paying attention. Also, kindness is clarity. You can be clear in what you expect of others. Sometimes they don't know. We presume, I wouldn't do this, so they should know better. It's like, look, they're in a whole other headspace.

So I think addressing things while they're small, not waiting for things to get big when it's important. And there are situations where it's like, you know what, this person is too much of a mess. It's too much of a shit show or it's too much stress. Or if it's someone where your phone rings and your stomach turns, that's when you're like, something's going on here. I need to minimize my exposure to this person. I'm not saying cut people out, although I have done that. And I don't think that's a bad thing. You save that for when you need to do it. And then with some others, I call it like you just make more space. You make more space, make more space. You don't answer the phone as often. You let it go to voicemail. You can send a text rather than call back. There are ways to create space with people when you realize this isn't for me. Not everybody is for you, but it's your responsibility to recognize it and then to act on it.

Mel Robbins: I can feel the person listening completely leaning in. And there's probably a person they have in mind. And then there's that heartache that you feel when you go, oh my God, I'm probably the name on someone else's phone. That when my name pops up, their stomach twists because I'm not showing up how I need to show up. Or maybe you're showing up in a way that they don't want you to show up. And it doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

Evie Poumpouras: What if it's you calling Oakley because you're concerned and worried about what's going on in Oakley's life. And the phone rings and Oakley's like, oh, it's mom, and stomach's turning.

Mel Robbins: Right.

Evie Poumpouras: And in that scenario, I would think maybe sometimes you're like, I don't care if your stomach's turning.

Mel Robbins: Yes. One thousand percent. So I know that I'm acting in a way that is aligned with my values. And the other scenario, when you're making somebody else's stomach turn, you're probably not.

Evie Poumpouras: Right. There's scenarios for that.

Mel Robbins: Yes. Can you talk about paralinguistics? What is that?

Mel Robbins: So paralinguistics is what you sound like when you speak. It's your tone, your pitch, your voice. So often people are so focused on what they're going to say. We have our talking points: "I need to make sure I hit this and I hit that, I need to say this." And it is what we sound like when we deliver information that is more powerful than the things that actually come out of our mouth.

Evie Poumpouras: When I left the U.S. Secret Service, I really learned paralinguistics more so when I began doing the news.

Mel Robbins: Meaning you were an expert on the news.

Evie Poumpouras: Yes. So I started doing the *Today Show* initially, and then shootings and crime. One of the things I learned from working on air is I had to learn to make sure my paralinguistics were strong enough so that when I spoke, it resonated. I found that yes, it matters what you say, but half the time it's how you say it.

So I learned talking points. I'll give my top three: talk less, give them your greatest hits. This is whether it's a pitch or you're talking to somebody—they don't need it all. Give them the strongest hits that you have, but then put more value in *how* you speak. It's authority in your voice. We're more likely to listen to and believe someone and see them as a confident person or a person of authority when they use a stronger tone of voice, meaning their stronger, deeper tone.

Mel Robbins: So if somebody's listening and they would like to convey more confidence, more authority, and they're leaning in as you're talking about paralinguistics, I hear you loud and clear: it's not what you say that really matters, it's how you say it. The strength that comes out through your voice. One thing that's going to help you do that is to have very few talking points. Boil down the thing that you want to convey to simple ideas, focus on a lower—and notice I'm doing it now—slow way of speaking. Are there other tips in terms of displaying that kind of authority?

Evie Poumpouras: Pauses and silence are good because it lets you catch up with your thoughts. You don't have to say everything that's in your head. Nobody cares. Just give them your top talking points. The other thing you touched on is when you say less, you don't have to think as hard. So what I'm also trying to do is lighten somebody's cognitive load. If I've got all this stuff in my head that I have to say, my cognitive load is maxed out. So I'm not going to speak well because I don't have enough cognitive load to pay attention to my voice.

I'm going to go, "Okay, Mel, this is what I want to tell you about. I drove up from New York and I was really upset about it." I'm not going to have enough bandwidth to stop and think about how I sound. I would tell people, even when I do the news, I don't want text. I'm like, give me my bullet points. I'm going to know my stuff. I'm going to know these three areas really well. And then I'm not going to try to memorize everything else. Forget it. Even if I interview somebody, I look through my questions, I start asking questions, but then I'll let the conversation move and go. Then maybe I'll look back at my notes to see, "Oh, did I ask that? Let me go back there." But don't get so hung up on memorizing stuff. That messes you up.

I think the most important thing when you're really trying to convey something to someone is to be present physically. Think about how you're sitting, how you're presenting. That's more important. Think about: are you looking at that person, not just when you speak, but when they speak? Have that. And at the same time, just own your voice. I think that's really it. Own your voice. And then maybe get rid of things like, "I'm just going to hurry up and say this. I've got a few minutes left, let me just power through this." Because when you do that, you tell people inadvertently, "I'm going to hurry through this because what I have to say is not that important. I don't want to waste your time because obviously I'm wasting it." That's what I'm saying.

I truly learned this through watching presidents. These guys would speak. They didn't race through anything. They get up on that mic. "Nope. I have something to say." And not just them, but other world leaders. They would get up there and they would speak. They would own their voice. Own it. Especially women, Mel. I usually don't try to gender things, but with women, we go, "Hi!" and we, you know... I think your voice captures all the stuff you've been through in life. So just make sure that the voice you're using is really your true voice, and not the one that's captured all these markers of shame, of guilt, of frustration, of embarrassment. And now you're showing up with not your true voice.

Mel Robbins: Where I'm going with that is you don't have to be on all the time. You don't have to be a hundred percent brave, a hundred percent confident. You don't always have to operate at this level. It's okay if you don't. You become more courageous or more brave when you do things. I will tell you, the more I've messed up, the more I lose, the more brave I become. You don't get better when you win. You just don't. Is it nice to win? Sure. Is it nice not to get rejection? Sure. But bravery comes through action. It's not something you think about. It's something you do.

Evie Poumpouras: I think what's really important is it is okay to go into a meeting and be afraid. It is okay to have a conversation with someone and be like, "You know what? I don't really have it, but I'm just going to ask what I need to ask." I think what's important is to get into the "what am I actually doing here?" And maybe leave yourself out of it. Leave your—check yourself at the door, check your emotions at the door, leave them there. And if you can go in mission-focused.

So if I sat there—let's say I did a case that was really high profile. I don't think I'm allowed to say what case it is, but it was a high profile case of a murder of a child. It was a very well-known case and there was new information that came out. Was I concerned? Yes. Was I nervous? Yes. All eyes were on me to get information. So I went in and I said, "Evie, you don't matter. Evie, you're going to leave, you're going to stay outside. You're going to be focused on what you're doing. My goal is to get information to see: is this person involved with the murder of this child, or do they have information? What is really going on here?" And so I took all of my essence and being to focus on what I was trying to accomplish.

That has helped me even in personal situations. Let's say you have a loved one and you want to know—let's say they have a substance abuse issue and you really want to find out what's going on. You're going to check you at the door and you're going to say, "Okay, it's not about me and how I feel. I want to find out as much as I can about what's going on with this person. And then once I get all the intel, the intelligence information I have, now I can move." So that's how you become brave—when you become focused on what you're doing.

So maybe these ideas of "I need to be brave to do this, I need to be confident to do this, I need to be motivated to do this"—such time wasters. If I can't do something unless I have bravery, or unless I'm confident, or unless I'm motivated, I'm going to do nothing. We create obstacles. We put these in the middle of what we're trying to do. And then we don't do what we're supposed to do because we're chasing these outliers that really—are they the barometers of whether I'm going to accomplish something or not?

When I went to NYPD my first week, I was a hot mess. I was like, "What am I doing here? Everyone's yelling at me. I can't wear makeup." I was like, "What do you mean you can't wear makeup? You're not allowed to wear makeup." I'm like, "You want me to come in like *me*?" So it was just so off. But was I afraid? I was all these things, but I showed up.

Mel Robbins: You know what I've learned from you so far that I think is really important? And it's changed the way that I would approach a situation with a loved one. When you mentioned—let's say you've got somebody that you love that has a substance abuse problem. Most of us would go into that intervention or that conversation like, "I got to get the truth out of them." And what I've learned from you in just this conversation is that you don't need them to say anything. Before you walk in that door and have that conversation, you need to be clear about your objectives and what you're doing, which is you're trying to assess the situation and gather data. And it doesn't require them to speak at all. So that's a great example the way you broke it down.

So what is your true goal in that situation? Let's use this as an example. I have a loved one who's got a substance abuse issue. What is my goal ultimately? My goal ultimately is to be the most effective that I can to support my loved one from a safe distance. And that is going to require me to get an assessment of what the hell is happening based on my gut. Because if I'm dealing with somebody with addiction, that's somebody that lies as a coping mechanism. So I know that going in. I also have a whole history of behavior that I've probably been in denial about. I know that going in.

And so you're going in to observe and assess and to ask questions with an open heart and an open mind. But you've got to have your Secret Service brain training in the background, because based on body language, based on tone of voice, based on not answering questions, based on past behavior, you are going to get all the data that you need to know where the situation is, whether they tell you the truth or not. And then it's not on them. It's on you to decide what you're going to do about it.

Because we also know that people don't heal until they're ready to heal. They don't get sober until the pain of being drunk or stoned or whatever is way worse than the pain of actually trying to change. And so there's nothing you can do to force them to actually change. All you can do is use the tools that you're giving us right now to not get so damn emotional, and not try to control the situation, and not try to accuse, but to just sit back and be like, "I'm here to get the data that I need to know what I need to do next." Because that's all I can control anyway.

Evie Poumpouras: What am I dealing with? I need to know what's going on in front of me. And you can maybe take it one step further. Because if you already know, you might be like, "My goal is to try to talk to this person, to see if I can get them to go get help, rehab, or whatever help looks like." That could be ultimately your mission. But you also have to be okay with the fact that you may not get there. It may be like, "My goal is to get the truth so then I can try to get this person help." But I also know I'm 50% of the equation. They're the other 50. So they may not want my help. So I have to be okay with that. And I also have to have my strategy for what do I do then afterward. I can figure that out later, what it's going to look like for me, whether I want this person in my life and how much, given the circumstances.

But when you go into that conversation, you're not going in thinking, "How I feel, what this is doing to my life." It's like, "I want to know what the fuck is going on. What am I dealing with?" And then my ultimate goal would be my mission to get you help, but I may not get there. Maybe not that day.

Mel Robbins: Well, what I love about this approach is that it has nothing to do with them. And even if you go in—we all want everybody to reassure us, we all want everybody to tell us the truth. Somebody not reassuring you is an answer. Somebody not giving you a direct answer is an answer. Somebody refusing to answer your questions is also an answer. And we spend way too much time dismissing that, making excuses for that, instead of saying, "This motherfucker can't even give me a one-sentence answer to a simple question. I have all the information I need to know what I'm dealing with."

And it's the inability, I think, to assess the situation and to really trust your gut and to look at somebody's behavior or their lack of behavior as the only honest answer that they can give you, and then to act accordingly.

Evie Poumpouras: You know, it's interesting. I did this one interview. I don't remember what the person did. He was involved in some kind of fraud or something. And he wouldn't come out. So you would think in trying to get a confession from someone, you want him to say, "I did this." And what I learned is that's not what you're after. I didn't need that. So he wasn't giving me any information about what was going on. So I never tried to get them to say, "I took this money. I stole this money. I committed this crime." I wasn't trying to get that. But I would get them—they're called admissions—where people admit to little things. And as you get these little admissions, all these little admissions give you a picture. It's like a puzzle.

I remember with him, I said to him, "You don't have to tell me if you did it or not. Can you tell me what are you worried about?" And his thing was, "I'm worried about my family." Huge red flag. I'm like, he just gave me the admission. He just told me why he doesn't want to tell me why he did what he did. So I said, "Okay, you're worried about your family?" He said, "Yes, the blowback." I think we needed to do a search warrant or something. And I said, "Well, they need to do a search warrant. How do you want to do this? How can I help you?" Maybe he's like, "I can get my wife to leave town." So these are little admissions that, without him telling me "Yes, I did this," he's giving me little clues that are telling me he did this.

You don't need the smoking gun from people. They show you. But everyone's waiting for the person to say, "I did this. I lied. I cheated." It's a waste of time to try to get that. Most of the information you're going to get from people are little breadcrumbs that you collect and you put together and you've got your loaf of bread.

Mel Robbins: And I think the biggest thing standing in the way is you don't want to see the truth. And that's why we don't trust our guts. Because all along the way, people's behavior and their lack of behavior and their decisions are giving you the truth about who they are and what they care about and what they're doing and what they're not doing and how they make you feel. And we are so focused on "I did something" that we don't hear the bell that's ringing deep inside us.

It's really fascinating. If you could speak directly to the person that's listening, and there was just one change or takeaway that you wanted them to take from everything that you taught us today, what would it be?

Evie Poumpouras: Handle your shit. Don't avoid your problems. Don't blame other people. Handle it. If things aren't right, they're not right because you're allowing them to not be right. It's hard. I'm not saying—and I come with humility—it's a hard thing to do. But it is on you to handle your stuff. Because when we don't, we get pissed at everybody around us. "You should this and you should that and you should do this." And it's a really hard way to live, where your steadiness, your bravery, your confidence, your happiness, whatever, is tethered to the instability of other people and whether or not they're going to give you what you hope they will give you. Live in reality and live in truth. When you do that, you make better decisions.

Mel Robbins: For somebody who just went, "Oh shit, heavy. I do have to handle my shit. I have been avoiding the truth. I have been blaming other people. I haven't taken responsibility." What is the first step when you have that realization that you've been ignoring your instincts, or you've been beating yourself up, or you've not been taking responsibility for changing yourself or the situation that you're in?

Evie Poumpouras: You're going to sit down and you're actually going to put into effect what you're going to do. So I need to address this person. I need to leave this relationship. I need to quit this job, whatever it is. I need to ask my loved one to leave the house, or my kid who's got an addiction—I have to do the hard thing. Usually the hard thing is harder in our mind. Once you do it, I'm not saying it's not going to hurt, but you have to do these things if it is the right thing to do. We all know what we should do. We don't do it. We all know. That's what I would do: put into action what you want to do.

The one thing I'll say is once you come to that realization, get into a place where you're steady and prepared. Because people—I don't want to say people are manipulative. Some people are. Some people will sell you. Some people will mislead you. Some people confuse you. There's this great ancient Greek quote from Odysseus in the *Iliad*. It says, "Don't listen to your enemies. Look at them. It will tell you everything." I'm not saying people are your enemies. But what I'm saying is people, when you listen to the words, people tell you all sorts of stuff to get you to change your mind. You have to look and pay attention. Just do.

I think that's the biggest thing. So once you make that choice, put your plan in place. Leave your emotional self at the door and be like, "I'm going to handle this." But I think one of the mistakes people make sometimes is, "I'm going to sit this person down and I'm going to tell them this and I'm going to tell them that." Sometimes it's just like, pack up your shit and leave. Sometimes it's just as simple as that. You don't need to sit them down.

Mel Robbins: What are your parting words?

Evie Poumpouras: Trust yourself. Nobody knows what's best for you except for you. Nobody. Stop asking everybody. It's okay to ask people for guidance, but if you're going to ask someone, make sure that they have the expertise and knowledge to guide you. You know what the most important decisions I've ever made? I didn't ask anybody. I didn't ask anybody if I should become a cop. I didn't ask anybody if I should be a Secret Service agent. I didn't ask anybody what I should do on 9/11. I didn't ask. That's how you build confidence.

Mel Robbins: Evie, I think that you were here today to talk directly to me. Handle your shit, Mel Robbins. It's hard. It is hard. There were so many incredible things that you said. This is exactly what I needed to hear. I'm sure it is exactly what you needed to hear today too. Thank you. Thank you for being here and for just telling us what we needed to hear.

Evie Poumpouras: I tell it to myself all day long too. I'm not excluded. We all just have to handle our stuff. But thank you. Thank you, Mel, for having me.

Mel Robbins: You're welcome. And for you, I wanted to just make sure to tell you, in case nobody else does, that I love you. I believe in you. Now go handle your shit. And I'll talk to you in a few days.

[Music fades in]

Mel Robbins: All right, you guys ready? Oh boy, are you in for a fascinating experience today on the Mel Robbins Podcast: "How to Get the Truth Out of Anyone." Sorry. Woo, that's a mouthful. Okay, great. Next up.

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Mel Robbins: Wow, the ending was fantastic. Is there anything else that you wanted in that? Great job.

[Pause]

Mel Robbins: Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.