The Secret to Stopping Anxiety & Fear (That Actually Works)

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. So just this morning, literally a couple hours ago, before I walked into the studio, sat down in this chair, and am talking to you now, I get this text from one of my close college friends, and it said, "Mel, I really need some help. Do you have five minutes?" And she was texting me because she was looking for recommendations on what to do because her daughter's anxiety, it is through the roof.

Mel Robbins: And you know what? I'm not surprised because I'm seeing so many people in my life. I'm seeing so many emails coming into the inbox at melrobbins.com, comments, DMs about this exact same topic. And the thing that was kind of crazy about today is that she texts me this question about anxiety, looking for resources. Where do I start? How do I help this person I care about? And do you know what you and I are talking about? Literally, in a matter of a minute, we are sitting down with one of the world's leading anxiety experts from Harvard University. He's the founder of the Center for Anxiety. I mean, what are the odds? Don't you just love it when life confirms the very thing you're about to do? It's like a little sign. Okay, you're on the right track. Just keep going.

Mel Robbins: And as somebody who struggled with anxiety for decades and who has had kids who have struggled with anxiety, here's what I know. It can be so scary when it's happening to you or to somebody that you love, but I also want you to know something. You have within you the capacity to face whatever is scaring you. And this conversation needs to happen right now, and I'm so glad that you are here for because Dr. David Ross-Marin is about to flip everything that you and I know on its head about anxiety.

Mel Robbins: This is gonna be a resource, a place for you to start. If you or somebody that you love is struggling with this anxiety, and by the end of this episode, you're gonna know exactly what anxiety is and what it isn't. You're gonna understand the things that you're probably doing that are making it worse for you or the person that you care about. You're gonna have a whole new way to look at this and a four-step approach that's going to work. And this is exactly what you need to help somebody who's struggling with anxiety. And the good news is Dr. Ross Marin says, if you feel trapped by anxiety or you've been trying to outrun it or outdrink it or outsleep it or whatever, what he's about to share with you will set you free.

[Intro music fades]

Mel Robbins: Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. I am so thrilled that you're here. I am excited for today's conversation. I love talking and learning about ways that you can understand anxiety and help somebody who is kind of struggling with it right now and that's what we're gonna do. It is always such an honor to spend time with you and to be together. And I wanna take a minute and acknowledge that if you're a new listener, welcome. Welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast family.

Mel Robbins: I'm so thrilled that you hit play and that you made time to listen to this particular episode because I know that you don't have a lot of time. I know you value your time. And I know that you're listening because either you struggle with anxiety or you're feeling a little bit more anxious than normal or you know somebody who does and you're looking for resources that are gonna help you get control of your anxiety or support someone else. And I'm gonna tell you something. You're gonna wanna share this with everybody that you care about because this is a life-saving and a priceless resource with one of the most respected and renowned experts on the planet practicing medicine today, working with thousands of patients around the world who are struggling with anxiety.

Mel Robbins: And if you're here listening to this right now because somebody shared this with you, I want to tell you that's amazing because it tells me that you have people in your life who care about you. And this episode is going to remind you, no matter what you're facing, no matter how you're feeling. No matter how much your thoughts are spiraling or you're kind of getting into that grip where you're just so worried that bad things are going to happen at work or in your relationship or to somebody you care about, I want you to know you're not alone and you're definitely not powerless. And this doesn't have to be your life and it's not going to last. There are things you can do and you're about to learn from the world's leading expert over at Harvard what you can do about anxiety. This is your resource. This is your starting point.

Mel Robbins: And I want you to know I know exactly what you're feeling because I did struggle with anxiety for decades and I spent years running away from it. When things got too difficult to bear, you know what I'd do? I'd try to wash those anxious feelings away with a drink or I'd lie in bed and just pull the covers over my head and wish that things would go away if I just stayed in bed. Or my favorite thing to do, oh, just stay busy. Stay so busy you don't have time to think about anything. Is this sounding familiar? I'm sure it is because we all try to outrun the bad feelings. We all don't want to face the thing that we're scared to face.

Mel Robbins: And see, that's the thing about anxiety. It doesn't feel good, does it? And it also doesn't feel good to watch somebody that you care about struggle with it. Whatever it is that you are trying to do to forget the feeling or to get rid of it or deny that it's even there, I mean, why wouldn't you? Who would blame you if you did want to get rid of your anxiety? I mean, I don't blame you. Well, what if there's another way? What if there's an entirely different way to think about the topic of anxiety, an entirely different way to respond when you start to feel a little anxious? What if there's a different way to show up for the people in your life when they start feeling anxious? What if instead of running away, you actually learned how to run toward it? I mean, what does that even mean? Well, our expert today is going to tell you exactly what it means.

Mel Robbins: Dr. David Ross-Marin is one of the world's leading experts on anxiety. He's the founder of the Center for Anxiety, which offers therapy across the United States. And it's focused on not just living with, but thriving with anxiety. And when I heard that, I was like, okay, thriving? I'm a little skeptical. Well, I think Dr. Ross-Marin is going to suspend all disbelief and set us free. He's an associate professor of psychology at Harvard Medical School and the director of the Spirituality and Mental Health Program at McLean Hospital, which is one of the top-ranked psychiatric hospitals on the planet. He is also the author of *Thriving with Anxiety, Nine Tools to Make Your Anxiety Work for You*. And he'll be the first to tell you he deals with anxiety too.

Mel Robbins: And after 15 years as a leader in this field, he has learned something that you will probably find kind of surprising. Embracing that dreaded anxiety, it's actually good for you? It can actually enrich your life, make you happier, more confident, more resilient person. Now that may sound like a very tall order, especially if you can't sleep because your anxiety is so bad or you don't know what it feels like to not have racing thoughts, but there is a different way to live. So if you and I are gonna trust anyone, how about we promise each other that we're not gonna trust the negative thoughts right now? We're gonna trust Dr. Ross Marin because he says he can show you anxiety is not the curse you think it is. And he's actually going to teach you today how you can start seeing it as a blessing you can embrace. Now, there's a word I never thought I'd use before today's conversation. So let's just jump in.

Mel Robbins: Dr. David Rosmarin, I am so excited that you're here. I am even more excited. Well, one of the reasons why I'm excited is because I am asked the question over and over and over again. For some reason right now, this is one of the biggest things I've been asked, which is I either have somebody that I love that's struggling with anxiety or I am suddenly very anxious. Where do I even start? And I feel like this conversation and the honor of being able to sit down with you and learn from you in the way that you are counseling and helping and healing people around the world with your work who are struggling with anxiety. I just feel like this is going to be the biggest gift. And so I would love for you to tell the person listening who has made the time to learn from you today, what could change about their life or the person's life that they're going to share this with if they take everything to heart that you're about to share with us based on all of your experience and they use it in their life?

Dr. David Rosmarin: There are two things. The most fundamental is to stop judging yourself for feeling anxious, to stop feeling anxious about the fact that you have anxiety in your life because everyone does. It's a normal human emotion. In fact, if you don't have anxiety, something's probably wrong. That's number one. And number two, once you accept that it's part of your life, you can use it as an ally instead of an enemy.

Mel Robbins: That's a pretty tall promise, the ally versus an enemy, because I think anybody who is struggling with anxiety or watching somebody struggle with it, it does seem like an enemy.

Dr. David Rosmarin: It sure does.

Mel Robbins: And that's why I was really curious, because the title of your bestselling book is *Thriving with Anxiety*. Because when I hear thriving with anxiety, it almost presumes that I got to keep it. And I'm like, but doc, I want to thrive without this stuff.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Of course.

Mel Robbins: What is possible when you say you can make it an ally or you can thrive?

Dr. David Rosmarin: I would say it's almost as counterintuitive as "let them."

Mel Robbins: What do you mean?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Well, I don't want to let them. I want to control them. I want to stop them. These annoying, irritating situations in my life. Once you accept that you can't, that actually becomes a resource for you to become more resilient, more connected to people who are worth connecting to, worth focusing more on things in your life that you can control. And anxiety is the same way. It's kind of like "let them" for your internal world.

Mel Robbins: So meaning that because we don't understand what anxiety actually is and because we're afraid of it, actually it reminds me of a passage in your book that I want to read to you that I found so interesting. "Anxiety is nothing to fear in and of itself." This is page 35 I'm reading from. "My office has serviced over 10,000 patients. And we have never had a patient die from anxiety. No one has ever been hurt from their anxiety symptoms or, quote, 'gone crazy' from the acute experience of anxiety." Even though I'll add that you often feel like you're going crazy.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Sure.

Mel Robbins: And you write, "Yes, people can develop behavioral problems in the context of anxiety, including alcohol or substance misuse, self-injury, and suicidality. However, if you want your anxiety to decrease, the last thing you want is to flood your system with more adrenaline. So reacting with catastrophic or self-judgmental thoughts to the fear response only makes it worse." And so what I take from just that passage is that we kind of have anxiety all wrong, and because we do, we're making it worse.

Dr. David Rosmarin: A hundred percent. That's exactly what's happening. Our society is over-medicalizing, over-pathologizing a normal human emotion. Now, don't get me wrong. At a certain point, it does become pathological. But we are conflating clinical pathological anxiety with normal anxiety that all healthy human beings experience. And in making all of that one big lump of craziness, we have become allergic to the normal side of anxiety. And that's creating the anxiety epidemic today.

Mel Robbins: Wow. So will you unpack that allergic part? Because you also write about that in your book, that anxiety is almost like an allergy. So you just said something that I think needs to be said even louder, which is there's a massive difference between the kind of chronic crushing anxiety that becomes a massive debilitating problem in somebody's life and the very normal anxiety that absolutely every human being is going to feel. And if you understand it, it doesn't have to get worse. It can be something that can actually be an ally that you're not afraid of. What do you mean when you said allergy though?

Dr. David Rosmarin: I did this for years myself. I would show up to work, have clammy hands, have a little bit of an upset stomach. My breathing would be a little bit labored because it's a stressful day. And I would say, "David, what's wrong with you?" Until it was really during the COVID pandemic that it hit me, I'm like, that's not true. Like we're going through a hard time. We're gonna feel somewhat anxious. In fact, if I didn't feel anxious, then something would be wrong. And then I realized we need to bifurcate between normal anxiety, which is actually potentially a very great resource to thrive in your life, and then clinical anxiety, which does need professional treatment, whether it's medication or psychotherapy or something more sophisticated and targeted. But we're getting it wrong, and it's having disastrous consequences, especially for kids.

Mel Robbins: How does being nervous or feeling on edge, how is that an example of thriving when you're facing something challenging?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Well, it does depend what you do with it. If we take those nerves, those regular healthy anxiety feelings, sensations, thoughts that are going through, and we actually get to the bottom of it, we probe, we think about what's making us anxious, we can become more self-aware, right?

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Dr. David Rosmarin: If we share it with someone else, we can broaden and deepen our connections with other people and become more intimately related to them.

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Dr. David Rosmarin: And if we embrace it, well, we can actually build our emotional fortitude to be able to face adversity. And we can also even use it to let go. And I think that's the process that we have to start using with normal, healthy aspects of anxiety as opposed to get rid of it. And our immediate knee-jerk reaction is get rid of these feelings. Something is wrong with me. I shouldn't be feeling this way. And immediately your adrenaline is going to spike because you're interpreting the lower levels of anxiety as a problem. So that's literally going to create a physiological cascade. And it dumps more adrenaline into your system.

Mel Robbins: It makes so much sense. And yet when you're in that spiral or that panic about your job or the interview or whether or not you're going to meet quota or if the person that you're seeing is falling out of love with you, you don't have access to that ability, or at least not now, that's what you're going to teach us how to do. To catch, is this sadness or depression? And I guess I would put in that, is this normal nerves or is this actually something to be worried about as a state?

Dr. David Rosmarin: It's exactly the first question to ask.

Mel Robbins: And it's something I've never done, is stop myself in those moments where I'm starting to go up in my head and ruminate and panic and think about all the worst things that could happen, which only freaks me out more. And I've seen my kids do the same thing. And then I avoid the thing that I need to do, which only makes me feel more doubtful and affirm that I can't handle it. And so I could see how the first thing would be, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Is this a normal set of nerves based on what's going on and a sign that I'm actually mentally well, or is this something way bigger?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Correct.

Mel Robbins: Could you just explain to the person listening how exactly you found yourself in this work and starting the Centers for Anxiety? What led you here?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Sure. Looking back in the last 20 years, I would probably, if I had to be honest, it's going to be my own anxiety. And this has very much been a personal journey for me. I was taught in graduate school, I was taught in my training to diagnose, treat, help people to get rid of their clinical anxiety. And those tools are still something that I use on a daily basis in a variety of different contexts in my work. But it took going through the pandemic to actually click into this concept that not all forms of anxiety are problematic and bad. And we can potentially even use those lower levels of anxiety in a constructive, positive, healthy way to help us to thrive and to grow in our lives.

Mel Robbins: Well, I mean, I'll just admit right away, having struggled with anxiety for almost 30 years, I'll take full responsibility for the fact that I was afraid of anxiety. I hated it. I ran from it. I tried to drink it away. I tried to outwork it.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yep.

Mel Robbins: And none of it worked. And some of the medications worked to mute it and they were life-saving ladders to help me climb out of a hole, but not understanding what you're talking about already. And so I want to take a giant highlighter and say there's a huge difference between low-level anxiety that is normal and the higher-level debilitating anxiety that is the focus of your clinical practice.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Correct.

Mel Robbins: We're going to get into the tools that you can use for yourself and you can also use with people in your life that are feeling anxious. But I should probably just back up and start with some of the basics.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Sure.

Mel Robbins: What is your definition of anxiety, Dr. Ross?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Okay. There are cognitive aspects, things that are going on in your mind. There are physiological or emotional aspects. And then there are behavioral aspects, usually avoidance, but maybe some checking. So let's go through them. The cognitive aspects, worry, apprehension, you're nervous something's going to happen, focusing on the negative thoughts spinning in your head. If I go to this event, somebody will judge me, people won't, you know, I will have a panic attack. I'm not going to feel good. I'm not going to be able to manage it. If I don't do well in this sales meeting, I'm going to get fired.

Mel Robbins: Sure. Yeah.

Dr. David Rosmarin: If I don't wear the right thing on this date, they're not going to like me. At best, maybe even worse. Never have another date again, right? This is my only opportunity.

Mel Robbins: Oh, I see what you mean by at best. The thoughts are way worse. I'm never going to find anyone. I'm going to always be the single for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Sure, sure, sure, sure.

Mel Robbins: And then there's the physiological.

Dr. David Rosmarin: So that's something, the sweaty palms, the upset stomach, labored breathing. And that's really adrenaline, which is going through one system and it creates those, the cotton mouth, it creates these symptoms that people have.

Mel Robbins: And the feeling associated with that foreboding, those kinds of emotions that go along with it. That's the constellation.

Dr. David Rosmarin: That's the constellation.

Mel Robbins: Why does this happen? So why does this happen before a test? Why does this happen before a date? Why does this happen if you have a stressful day at work? Why does this happen if you have to see your in-laws and you don't particularly enjoy them? Sure. Why do babies right when they're born let out this massive scream? Is it because they're getting air in their lungs for the first time?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yeah, and it's kind of new and scary. And like they've been in this comfortable little bubble for however many months. And they're in this all of a sudden this different environment and there's lights and there's people and there's breathing like you mentioned. And there's a digestion change and heart changes and all sorts of stuff all at once. And a healthy child will go, "Ah!" and freak out. And if they don't freak out, what do we say?

Mel Robbins: Uh-oh.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Exactly. You call in a neurologist. Those kids usually don't survive.

Mel Robbins: So what's happening in my body if I'm going into work on a stressful day and I feel anxious? Like, how is that the same as a baby crying?

Dr. David Rosmarin: You're a healthy person. On a stressful day at work, if you're not having a little bit of, your hands aren't a little bit clammy and you're not feeling a little bit jazzed up, like you don't recognize that there's a task for you to do. There's something important. You may be disconnected from the meaning of your work. You might be disconnected from the relationship you have with your peers. That doesn't sound like a good work colleague. Having a little bit of apprehension and anxiety and nervousness walking into those situations shows that you care.

Mel Robbins: That's a beautiful reframe. And I think for those of us that are feeling it, or we see this present in our children or a partner or a colleague, what is the thing you could say in that moment? Because I think it's those micro moments that we really screw up.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Totally.

Mel Robbins: And so what do you do in that moment?

Dr. David Rosmarin: I love your specific example of parents and children. Little Jimmy or Jenny comes home. They feel a little bit anxious. And the parent themselves is a little anxious themselves. And they're freaked out about the fact that their kid is feeling anxious. So what do they do? Try to put out the fire. They try to calm them down. They try to say everything's going to be okay. They give them reassurance. Say, you don't have to go to school. Don't worry. You don't have to go to that event. We accommodate them as opposed to, "Oh, you're feeling anxious. That sounds interesting. Tell me more." With no judgment and just to explore it and actually create a more deep connection between parent and child.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Ask questions. What is little Jimmy or Jenny afraid of and why? Is it embarrassment? Are they afraid of messing up and being overly responsible? Are they afraid of physical sensations? Do they feel like a failure? Are they afraid of losing friends? Ask them lots of questions. And without trying to change it, don't try to change how they're thinking, how they're feeling, their behavior in any way. Just be there with them while they feel anxious. They just want you to connect with them. Turn into a point of connection as opposed to a moment of education. We are missing this fundamental perspective on anxiety, and it's having disastrous consequences for those micro moments. We judge others, we judge ourselves for feeling anxious, and we go down the tubes in a hot second because of it.

Mel Robbins: So even just stopping yourself from joining in, and that's terrible, and you got to calm down, and I'm going to call the school, and you don't need to do this. Definitely don't do that. You're just actually making it worse, because why?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Because you're conveying a message. I wouldn't even say it's subliminal or subconscious. It's direct. You are directly showing your child something is wrong here, and they become afraid of their anxiety as a result.

Mel Robbins: So what's the mistake that the person who is listening right now might be making when they're dealing with their own anxiety in life?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Misinterpreting it as a problem or a weakness or a disease or that something is wrong with you, as opposed to this is a normal human emotion. And then once we accept that, what do I do with it?

Mel Robbins: So we're going to go into your four-step process that you use in your clinical practice. Can you just tell it to us at a top level?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Sure. The four steps are as follows: Identify, share, embrace, and let go. I'll explain each one. Identify means getting to the root. What are you truly afraid of? Instead of putting it out of your mind, instead of squelching the symptoms, go there. Think about it. Get to what's actually bothering you. Two, share. Talk about it with someone else. Open up about it. Make it a point of connection as opposed to sitting in a state of loneliness. Three, embrace your favorite. Do that which makes you feel anxious when you're ready and at a rate that you're comfortable with, but that is the path for emotional resilience. And finally, let go. There are certain things we can't control. Anxiety is always surrounded around control. And at a certain point, we need to let go. To the extent that you can do that, you've completed the four steps.

Mel Robbins: It seems so simple, which is probably why it works so well. Let's take a kid who has trouble doing a sleepover, which is a very normal thing.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Oh, even bigger one.

Mel Robbins: Sure. A kid who is anxious about throwing up. Happens every day.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Well, and my son, even to this day at the age of 19, hopefully will allow me to share this, is afraid of throwing up. Even though he has thrown up and knows that he can throw up, he still will get anxious about throwing up. And it was a huge thing when he was a kid.

Mel Robbins: Yep.

Dr. David Rosmarin: So if you were here, I would want to know what's the focus of his apprehension. That's a very fancy way of saying what's at the root of his anxiety. Can we identify what is he really afraid of? When you vomit, it's unpleasant. Is it taste? Is it embarrassing yourself? Is it some sort of just the gag reflex and you just don't like how it feels? But if so, I'd want to know what about it? Did he watch a video once and there's an association with that video? I would have a whole bunch of questions here to ask. With no judgment, simply to explore what about that situation is so upsetting for him.

Mel Robbins: You know what I love about this?

Dr. David Rosmarin: What?

Mel Robbins: Is that I so screwed this up because I'd be like, "You're not going to get sick. You're going to be fine. It'll happen. There's a nurse at school. Get on the bus." And what you're doing is you're actually slowing down that micro moment and you're going deeper and saying, well, what would happen and what is it really? And when you get to that answer, let's just say it's that I just hate the taste and I hate the pressure on my face and I hate it that it's going to happen and you're not there or that somebody's going to see it.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Hold on, that it's going to happen and you're not there is important. What about vomiting without mom is upsetting? I'd want to know that. Based on what they say, I'm going to probe a little bit further and get like, what about that specifically is going to be upsetting to you?

Mel Robbins: You know, I heard our pediatrician share with me that the fear of throwing up is one of the biggest fears that kids have behind their parents dying. And when you hear kids talk about this in your practice, like what typically is underneath some of these very common things that cause kids anxiety, whether it's sleepovers or it's separation anxiety or it's throwing up?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yeah. I'll tell you what I often think it is about throwing up. There's an association because the kid threw up at some point and one of the parents cleaned it up and it was not pleasant for anyone.

Mel Robbins: Oh, so we shamed them.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Well, there is a bit of a fear of that. I'm not saying that you did. By the way, the therapist in me really wants to probe for your over-responsibility for your kid's anxiety. I'm sort of dying to do that, but I don't want to turn this into a therapy session, so we'll stay on topic. With regards to whatever it is, though, you want to probe and really get down to the sort of the root of it. And I think this is something we can do ourselves.

Mel Robbins: Yes.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Right? I'm going to feel ashamed if I throw up. It's embarrassing. Someone else is going to have to clean it up. And if it's someone else's house and I'm doing a sleepover, it's like someone else's mom and dad, like, ugh, that's a valid fear.

Mel Robbins: Yeah. And I also feel like, you know, I've heard this definition recently around anxiety that made so much sense to me, and I'd love to hear your reaction, and then I want to get into more examples about the things that you're seeing in your practice with your patients to just normalize the types of not only fears and anxious feelings that people have, but the way they rationalize this stuff in their head.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Sure.

Mel Robbins: And then hold themselves back because of it. And it's this, that anxiety is really a moment of uncertainty in life.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yes.

Mel Robbins: And you doubt your capacity to handle it.

Dr. David Rosmarin: That's exactly correct.

Mel Robbins: And because we then start worrying about how things are going to be, I'm going to throw up or the work's going to be terrible or I'm going to get fired or this person's never going to love me or I'm never going to meet anybody again. Or if I park in a parking garage on the top floor, then the car is going to roll off and fall to its face. And I'm going to like that. Could happen.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Right, it could. Could happen. Probably not, but it could happen, right?

Mel Robbins: Yeah, those things could happen. It's the fact that you doubt your ability to handle it that gets you trapped in your mind going over all of the what-ifs.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Well, that's where the next two steps are. So let's go to the second step.

Mel Robbins: Well, the second step is sharing.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Okay. Sharing your emotions, the core of it, with someone else can create connection with someone. Now, you have to share with purpose, right? And there's not everyone in all circumstances can you share with them. If you're sharing with a stressed out loved one who's coming back after a really nasty business trip or really they're going through a hard time themselves. They might not be able to hear it right now, but sharing it in a certain context and being clear, "I need you to validate me. I just need you to hear me out. I'm feeling anxious. I want you to be here and present with me." And then sharing it can create more intimacy and connection between parents and children, certainly between loved ones, between friends. I've even seen it happen with strangers where people open up to each other like, "Hey, I feel that way too." And like instant connection.

Mel Robbins: Or on a plane. A friend of ours flew in here, a colleague, and had horrendous turbulence. Which, by the way, if I'm taking what you're teaching us, Dr. Rosmarin, if you're anxious on a plane that is like riding a bucking bronco, it's a sign that you're mentally well and that your body's working as it should.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yeah, what's wrong with you if you're not feeling anxious?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Correct. And he said the woman next to him started hyperventilating, so he held her hand and told her, "I'm nervous too, but we're going to be okay. Look at the attendants. They're chatting away. We're going to be okay." And so her sharing with him that she felt that way created a complete connection with a stranger. She will never forget him.

Mel Robbins: That's true. Ever.

Dr. David Rosmarin: That's true.

Mel Robbins: What's the third step after you tell somebody?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Once we share and we're connected to people, embrace the anxiety.

Mel Robbins: Now, how the hell do I do that?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Face it. Do something that makes you anxious.

Mel Robbins: I don't want to.

Dr. David Rosmarin: I know. But you also don't want to go to the gym to build your physical muscles. But you do that.

Mel Robbins: That's true. Why doesn't every school in the United States of America have mental, emotional agility resilience building by doing something that makes you feel a little bit uncomfortable? As long as it's safe and it's something that you want to do, do it.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Dr. Rosmarin, I have a lot more questions that I want to ask you about this, but I want to take a quick pause. Let's let all of this information settle in. And while you listen to a word from our sponsors, share this with somebody that you love. I mean, this is world-class, medical research-backed advice. Everybody in your life deals with anxiety, and everybody deserves to know how they can thrive when those moments hit. So don't go anywhere, because Dr. Rosmarin and I are going to be waiting for you after a short break. So stay with me.

[Commercial Break]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel Robbins. And today you and I are learning from world-renowned expert on anxiety, Dr. Rosmarin. So if you're going to embrace your anxiety, and that's the answer, which I don't like to hear, I'm just going to say right out. Like if I am a person — we all have this person in our life whose identity has become anxiety. And it is also the thing that they say to opt out. And I have been that person. And so if embracing anxiety, after you've identified what am I really scared of, you share it. Now we got to embrace the thing you're actually scared of, that root thing, right?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Correct.

Mel Robbins: How do you do that? Can you share examples?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Sure. There's this brilliant approach called the five second rule.

Mel Robbins: Oh, no. Do not turn my work back on me. Am I wrong? That's what it is. I'm getting out of bed, even though I feel like hell right now. I'm going to do this. I don't want to. You know, I've had people with a fear of snakes.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Okay.

Mel Robbins: I literally have a guy on speed dial who I can — should I bring him in?

Dr. David Rosmarin: No, not right now. That's fine. You're not ready for it.

Mel Robbins: So you have to — so how do you coach somebody through this? Because you do have a section in your book where you — let's see here. I marked it actually. It's page 96, facing up to anxiety. Exposure therapy.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: Chapter three. Is exposure therapy the only answer?

Dr. David Rosmarin: It's not the only answer. It's a very, very good tool. And when you have clinical anxiety, it has to be part of the picture. If you're not going to face your anxiety eventually, it's going to be hard to get over it. But I think it's one step. I think we do have to identify it. We do have to share it. We do have to embrace it. I think there's something beyond it. But let's focus on exposure therapy for now.

Mel Robbins: Okay. So you're afraid of flying? You're going to fly at some point when you're ready. We're going to take — by the way, are you more nervous about short hauls or long hauls?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Me?

Mel Robbins: No, just let's make it up.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Oh, got it. Probably smaller planes.

Mel Robbins: Smaller planes. Great. Perfect. So there's an airline that goes out of Boston Logan called Cape Air. It's got like seven seats. I think it's eight. And one of them is actually in the cockpit. And I've been in it. It's a Cessna plane. It's basically a minivan with wings.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Dr. Rosmarin, I would quit as your patient.

Mel Robbins: Do you actually get people to do this?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Sure. I was going to say it's a lot of fun. But not only is it fun for me, it's fun for them at a certain point because they are embracing their anxiety and saying, "I can do this. I'm not going to let it get in my way."

Mel Robbins: What about shyness?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Great. Harder to target, tends to be longer term, tends to be focused. Also comorbid with depression. People get a lot more depressed because if you're shy, you're more disconnected from others, more isolated, more alone, more sad. So often building that person up first is important clinically through more identification and a lot more sharing, not just with a therapist, but also with other people in their world, sometimes posting on social media, whatever it is. But at a certain point, they're going to have to go to the party and not have a martini.

Mel Robbins: Why no martini?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Because the martini is an anxiolytic. That's a big word. Big word for saying it reduces your anxiety.

Mel Robbins: Temporarily.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Temporarily. But then you wake up in the morning with a massive hangover and anxiety is the big symptom that you feel. And then you're ruminating about all the stuff that you said that you shouldn't have said because you're a little bit tipsy.

Mel Robbins: What about for OCD? Like somebody who's worried about cleanliness and germs.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Great. So let's just say these hands have been in many places that I will not tell you about.

Mel Robbins: Today?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Not today. Just kidding. Not today. Don't worry. And I do wash my hands before I eat. But before washing my hands and before eating, you'd be surprised where these go. Part of being an anxiety therapist means you have to do everything that your patients do also.

Mel Robbins: So what do you do with those like really dirty, grimy hands?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Okay, so I'm thinking of a specific patient who came in who was terrified of germs and for many years had been avoiding all sorts of situations. Really wouldn't open car doors, certainly wouldn't ride the subway, and was at one point putting gloves on their hands, lots of Purell, lots of excessive washing. They had actually had very significant chafing, even needed some medical treatments in order to be able to deal with abrasions on their hands from all the washing. And really, we started with touching things that would make them feel uncomfortable. Started with things in the office. It could have been as simple as this desk surface. It could have been things that, you know, in the bathroom would be next. And eventually moving towards the inside of a toilet bowl — things that are way over the top that you wouldn't normally do — in order for them to develop the resilience to stand up to their anxiety head on.

Mel Robbins: The toilet. Oh. So how does somebody get through the uncomfortable feelings that they have while they're doing this exposure therapy with you?

Dr. David Rosmarin: The first step is always the same, which is: do you want to do this? Once somebody wants to face their anxiety and build their resilience by deliberately putting themselves in an anxiety-provoking situation, once you catch the bug, once you want to do it, there's nothing that'll stop you.

Mel Robbins: What if when they first start doing it, they feel so uncomfortable or the anxiety just spikes and they're like, "I can't do this. I can't do this. I can't get on that plane. I can't put my hands on the toilet. I can't put my hands on the table." What do you do?

Dr. David Rosmarin: So we prep people beforehand. They will think, "I can't do this. I'm not going to be able to handle this. My anxiety is going to spike. I'm going to get sick." All of those thoughts are going to be rocketing through your head because that's what facing anxiety entails. That's part of the process. And that is exactly why it's an opportunity to build emotional resilience.

Mel Robbins: How many times, Dr. Rosmarin, does it take for somebody to start feeling less anxious when they start forcing themselves to do this thing, expose themselves to the thing that they're terrified to do?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Often we see a significant drop in anxiety even after once or twice from doing it, but sometimes it does require many, many more repetitions. In some ways, it depends on how long they've been avoiding situations. If people have been avoiding germs and microbes and all sorts of things for decades, it might take a while for them to get through it. But it's kind of like a mortgage — eventually you pay it off.

Mel Robbins: What about a parent who has a child who is starting to develop a pattern of not wanting to either go to school or participate in sports or who won't do sleepovers? And it's with a family that's safe. It's not some creepy family you don't know and they don't want to do it because they don't want to be there. What about then?

Dr. David Rosmarin: When we push kids to do things that they don't want to do, there's a balance. Helping scaffold kids that they want to do it, selling them on it, so to speak, onboarding. We talk about onboarding kids, onboarding teens. Once somebody recognizes, "This will help build my resilience. This will help make me a stronger emotional person," then they're like, "Okay, I'm in." And at a certain point with planes, you might be there too. Like, you know what? I want to do this. I don't want this to get in my way in any way. I want to be more fearless in my life. I want to — just like you want to learn how to pump iron or be able to run a marathon or run at a certain time pace or whatever it is. We all have our fitness goals and I think we should also have our emotional goals.

Mel Robbins: We don't have that. Well, one of the things that I love that you said at the very beginning of our conversation, when you made this life-altering distinction. Thank you. Now for real, sadness is a normal emotion that you're going to feel and you know it comes and it goes. Depression is a clinical condition that interferes with your life, that demands and deserves treatment.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Correct.

Mel Robbins: Anxiety, in terms of chronic anxiety or this fear that you have of things that keeps you from living your full life, is very different than being nervous or on edge because the stakes are high or something's uncertain or you really care about doing well. Like, you know, I would imagine there's a tremendous amount of anxiety that you would feel before you take the LSAT or before you are turning in a college application or —

Dr. David Rosmarin: Going on a first date.

Mel Robbins: Going on a first date. And that's, again, in this range of nervousness and just uncertainty, which is a part of life. And what you taught us is in those moments, we literally do the wrong thing.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Correct.

Mel Robbins: We either go, "Uh-oh, this is a sign something's about to go wrong," and it's not. It's just a sign that you're about to do something where you doubt your ability for a bit. And then as the bystander, the friend, the boyfriend, the girlfriend, the husband, the wife, the parent, the grandparent, we literally are either like, "Oh, you're going to be fine," so we don't acknowledge it.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Right.

Mel Robbins: Or we join in with the anxiety. "Oh my God, something's wrong."

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yes.

Mel Robbins: "Oh, you don't have to go to the sleepover. Oh, you don't have to try out for that team."

Dr. David Rosmarin: Right.

Mel Robbins: "Oh, you can take the test again if you screw it up." And I can see how powerful it is to catch these moments and reaffirm, "Oh, really, that makes sense that you'd be nervous. Tell me why exactly are you nervous about this test that's coming up," or "I can see why you'd be nervous. Tell me more about the date you're going on." What does that do for a person in the moment?

Dr. David Rosmarin: It takes so much of the edge off. As opposed to giving me more of a reason to be anxious about my anxiety, it normalizes and makes it so much more manageable. It's just a different framework. It's kind of like having glasses that are like a different color. It just changes the whole view of everything around you. And by the way, it's not just the parents and the teachers. It actually comes from the medical profession. Something crazy happened last summer, something very unfortunate.

Mel Robbins: What happened?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Well, there was a federally funded panel of physicians in the United States who came up with — I think it was in some ways well-intended and I think it was a good idea to screen all patients at their annual PCP visits, primary care physician visits, for anxiety. Now I have no problems with screening people for anxiety, but the way it's done... Well, the recommendation was to use the GAD-2, which is a two-item measure. It asks, "How much anxiety have you had in the last two weeks?" and "How much worry have you had in the last two weeks?" Well, who isn't going to answer a lot?

Mel Robbins: Well, the cutoff — who's going to say zero to any of those questions?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Right. The cutoff was set at a zero, which means any modicum of anxiety or stress over the last two weeks is actually enough to flag a person today in their PCP office for clinical anxiety and treatment.

Mel Robbins: What? Well, I mean...

Dr. David Rosmarin: And is that why we've seen all these reports that anxiety from a clinical standpoint is on the rise? Or are you saying that this is more that doctors are now over-indexing normal, healthy human emotion into a clinical anxiety setting?

Mel Robbins: It's the latter, but it's actually both. We are definitely over-diagnosing lower levels of human stress and anxiety as a pathology as opposed to something normal. I agree with you. Who have you met in the last two weeks who have had no anxiety and no worry?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Honestly, no one.

Mel Robbins: And I think it's written about so much and that's not to downplay the very real rise in sadness and worry and stress that kids feel and teenagers feel and people in their 20s feel. But I do think we don't have the language, which was why I was so excited about your work because for somebody who had anxiety that did not get addressed this way, I was afraid of it. So I drank myself into the ground. I tried to work myself through it. The second I got chronic anxiety where I would wake up panicking, I then get medicated. And I never addressed the underlying issues. And the medication was life-saving, but it also, I think, kept me trapped in this place where I was afraid to go off it.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yeah, and it could have been at a certain point you shouldn't have gone off of it. You should have stayed on it and you needed it in order to function. And there are plenty of times — like, you know, I'm assuming — is all anxiety the same?

Mel Robbins: No, I'll tell you the way I think about it. Anxiety occurs on a scale of zero to 10. But really there's no zeros because no one has zero anxiety and there's no 10 because that would be literally catastrophic. So we're left with one to nine.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Okay.

Mel Robbins: One, two, three is low. Four, five, six is medium. Seven, eight, nine is high. If you're into seven or eight or a nine, you probably need something professional to take it down to a mid-range.

Dr. David Rosmarin: And how would you as a doctor and an anxiety physician, therapist, how would you actually categorize a seven, eight, or a nine?

Mel Robbins: If it's getting in the way of your — at that level, it's going to be getting in the way of your life. Meaning it's disrupting your sleep, you're avoiding doing what you need to do.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yeah, if you can't sleep because of your anxiety, that's a dysfunctional issue. That's something that has to be addressed.

Mel Robbins: And now let's go with the kind of 4, 5, 6.

Dr. David Rosmarin: 4, 5, 6. So that now depends. Some people can function actually reasonably well at a 4, 5, and a 6. 6 may be less likely, but a 4 and a 5 for sure.

Mel Robbins: What would you be hearing typically from someone in your practice if they were saying, "I'd say my worry and anxiety is about a 4, 5, or a 6"?

Dr. David Rosmarin: It depends on what's going on. Are they an emergency room doctor? Are they going through med school? Are they going through a breakup? Are they starting a new — they have a new baby? Then okay. People have periods of time where they might ramp up and that actually might enhance their performance. It might enhance their connection. You can use it.

Mel Robbins: The important thing there that I want to make sure that the person listening understands is that what you just identified — first of all, it's the step one that you taught us of identify what's the root cause. And there's a huge difference in those moments in your life where something is causing you to be on edge and you to be nervous and you to be worried and doubting yourself or scared about what's going to happen because that to me sounds like there's a situation. You know, I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that literally two hours before you walked in the studio, I got a text from a very close friend of mine who said, "My daughter is unable to sleep, has crushing anxiety," and then added that there is this massive medical test that she needs to take for med school, which to me said, "Oh, well, there's this thing happening that is high stakes that explains it." But because my friend has never dealt with this with any of her kids, and because it's really scary when you see somebody who normally seems like they have it pulled together truly start to spiral, you don't know what to do. And what I said to her is, "Well, I'm going to tell you something. First of all, it seems appropriate that she's nervous because she has high stakes. But I've got the world's leading expert walking in here. And this is the name of his book. And you should go buy it right now because I know I screw it up every time I see somebody, even when I know it's situational because I get anxious for them." And so I think it's important to understand that even in your practice, and this is something you can do for yourself and you can do for somebody you care about, you identified one to nine, how much is this interfering? And no matter what they say in terms of the ranking, you can also say what's going on in your life.

Dr. David Rosmarin: 100%.

Mel Robbins: And what's the difference between something that is situational versus something that becomes way more chronic?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Well, you know, that is important. The situational aspect is very important. But how you are sort of engaging in your anxiety — like I said, the four, five, and six — are you able to use that level of anxiety in a constructive, positive way?

Mel Robbins: Well, if I'm sitting there with you, probably not. You know what I mean? If I'm going to a doctor and I'm like, "Doc, I'm feeling very anxious, four, five, six. Like I'm not sleeping very well." I don't feel like anybody that even would say a four or five or six feels like they're thriving or able to kind of use it. I don't know. I think a lot of people might be like, "Hey, I'm building. I'm an entrepreneur. They're starting a new business. They're having a battle of a time. They're feeling stressed out, might've gained a couple pounds. And they know that they're at a four or five and a six, but they're like, 'But I'm going to get through this.'" I can think of periods of my life like that.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Sure.

Mel Robbins: So what is a one, two or three when somebody that you're treating says that?

Dr. David Rosmarin: So that often we see that as the goal. I'm not sure I do. I think that if — firstly, with medication, clinicians often overpromise and they say, "I'm going to get your anxiety down to a one and it's going to stay there." I'm not sure that's even helpful.

Mel Robbins: I love what you just said. What you just said is the goal is not to get to zero.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Correct.

Mel Robbins: That if we take as truth, which it is, that feeling on edge and nervous and doubting yourself — normal human emotions — the anxiety becomes a real problem from a clinical standpoint when it's interfering with your life and it is robbing you of the possibilities and the full potential that you have because you're now held hostage by the anxiety and you're scared of it.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Well put.

Mel Robbins: If the goal is that we can do simple things to identify what's making you anxious, to remind you that you have the capacity to face this, to have you share and connect with other people and to take small steps and go — the goal isn't to go to zero. The goal is just, let's just get this to a three. And there's some simple things I can do. Dr. Rosmarin, let's hit the pause button for just a second. Let's hear a word from our sponsors. And I want to give the person listening a chance to share this episode with somebody that they really care about because this is a world-class resource that you're giving us that will completely change the way that somebody thinks about anxiety and starts to respond to it differently. And I love everything that you're sharing. So thank you in advance for sharing this with people that you care about. And don't go anywhere because Dr. Rosmarin has so much more to teach you and share with you and inspire you about when we return. Stay with me.

[Commercial Break]

Mel Robbins: Welcome back. It's your buddy Mel Robbins. And today, you and I are getting to spend time with Dr. David Rosmarin. His book is *Thriving with Anxiety*. Thank you for sharing this with people that you care about. Thank you for taking the time to listen to something that will improve your life. So, Dr. Rosmarin, before we go into how do you actually go from the higher end down to the one to threes here, I do want to stay on this topic, even though it's very self-serving, because I feel like I screwed this up, and it's the sleepover topic. You're a parent, you have a child, they are opting out, and you're very worried it's getting into the four, fives, and six. You're not with them eight hours a day so you're not a part of what's happening at school. What do I do in those moments when I have a child that's really anxious? Do I force them to go to the sleepover? What do I do?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Validate, validate, validate. There's a reason why they don't want to go to the sleepover. And even if it doesn't make sense to you, it makes sense to their anxiety. You have to delve into that anxiety with them and allow them to explore it. The more you say, "Oh, there's no reason to be upset," the more they're just going to think that their anxiety is a problem and they might not even be conscious of what they're afraid of. But if you just ask them, like, "Why wouldn't you want to go to a sleepover?" Not judging, just asking.

Mel Robbins: "What if I wake up and I'm scared?"

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yeah, that would be upsetting. "What would happen if you were to wake up and..."

Mel Robbins: "Then I'd have to wake up Mrs. So-and-so and they'd have to come get you and it'd be really embarrassing."

Dr. David Rosmarin: I understand then why you wouldn't want to have a sleepover.

Mel Robbins: "I just like my bed. I'd rather be in my bed."

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yeah. Well, that's the comfort thing. By the way, the kid just changed the topic. Now we're talking about comfort as opposed to anxiety. So I would probably double back and say like, "Well, what about that Mrs. So-and-so would have to call you up and you'd have to pick me up and it'd be a whole thing. What about it? Would people be talking about it the next day? Would it be a social thing? Are you more embarrassed about the parents thinking about you, about your friend? Would you feel worse about yourself?" And just to explore it.

Mel Robbins: There's so much there because now I'm starting to think like, gosh, they probably also feel self-conscious. Like they can't do something that their friends can do and that makes them seem like more. And then you might find out that their friends actually aren't that nice. I can see how there's a lot there. And it's so individual to that person. Wow. But when we unpack it, we actually learn who the kid is. If you snuff out the anxiety, you'll never know what's really going on. Is there a difference between the way that women and men or boys and girls tend to exhibit symptoms of anxiety?

Dr. David Rosmarin: So great question. Women have about twice as much clinical anxiety as men. Why? They tend to be a lot harder on themselves and judge themselves for being anxious and don't really allow themselves to experience those feelings. If a guy's feeling anxious, like, "Well, something's wrong, and there must be a reason."

Mel Robbins: Yeah.

Dr. David Rosmarin: You know, women are more like, "Something's wrong with me."

Mel Robbins: It's so true.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Well, you know, there's interesting research. That just feeds back.

Mel Robbins: It does.

Dr. David Rosmarin: There's interesting research about if a guy loses a job, when he gets his next job, there's no difference in the salary he makes. When a woman loses her job, she turns it back on her, becomes anxious, and starts doubting herself and her capability of handling this, and tends to take literally a 25% salary cut. And so this has very, very real implications.

Mel Robbins: Are there topics that you find that boys and men are more anxious about than women?

Dr. David Rosmarin: No, I think men will often snuff out the anxiety a little bit more and be a little more disconnected from it. We see higher instances of substance and alcohol abuse. And that usually — you know, often happens when people are feeling anxious and don't want to talk about it, don't want to think about it.

Mel Robbins: How do you turn anxiety, though, into an ally instead of an enemy?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Great. When you're afraid of it, it is terrifying. But therein lies the opportunity. That's what creates the opportunity for self-discovery. The reason you're freaking out about it is because it matters. So identify what's at the root of it. Share it with someone else. Embrace it when you're ready. And then the next step is letting go, which is the hardest one. But that's where it's all — what's really all about. I think all human beings would benefit from acknowledging the limits of what we can control and leaning into that and letting go.

Mel Robbins: There's a difference between losing control, where it's taken away from us involuntarily, versus giving up control like you do on a roller coaster.

Dr. David Rosmarin: True.

Mel Robbins: That latter experience, when we don't have control over situations, if we're like, "Okay, it ain't my wheel."

Dr. David Rosmarin: Right.

Mel Robbins: Then the anxiety can actually be an uplifting, exhilarating experience where we lean into the fact that we aren't in control and that's okay. And so you are letting go of the need for proof and just choosing to believe.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Correct. Correct. And what I think you're believing, especially in those moments of anxiety, is that you're going to be okay and that you have the capability and the capacity to handle this and to face whatever comes. Even though it's overwhelming and beyond you.

Mel Robbins: Yes.

Dr. David Rosmarin: That somehow something in your humanity will be able to rise to the challenge. Who knows how? Who knows when? Who knows where? Methods are unclear. The path is opaque, but I'm going to continue to trot along it with some sort of level of surrender. I mean, at its deepest level, it's trusting in life.

Mel Robbins: And actually, it reminds me of something that you wrote in your book that I absolutely loved, which is: "When anxiety strikes, we tend to get annoyed. Why doesn't the anxiety beast get out of our way? We look for distractions or a way out of the quandary. Is there a drink I can have or a recreational drug I can take to make it all go away, at least for the moment? Can I busy myself with work or by obsessively reading and posting on social media? These strategies tend to just make anxiety worse. However, if we can harness the power of anxiety, we can thrive in ways we never thought were possible. We should not sidestep anxiety or back up and deny that it is there, but rather stop and evaluate the situation. What is our anxiety trying to tell us? The answer is that we need to dig deep down into ourselves, although doing so makes us uncomfortable. We need to experience anxiety in order to transcend it. And although it may not seem to be the case at first glance, what lies inside, what our anxiety is pointing us toward is a set of precious gifts. In this case, the gold isn't material wealth, but a deepened sense of connection with ourselves, with others, and with our spirituality. Ironically and paradoxically, we can thrive with anxiety."

Dr. David Rosmarin: You're right. Thanks.

Mel Robbins: What if you read the headlines about the melting polar ice cap and you look at the fact that there's this once in 200 year storm that happened in Florida, you know, a while ago, and you're worried about climate change and that there won't be a planet here for future generations. And that starts to cause you a lot of anxiety.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Right.

Mel Robbins: Or California wildfires.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yeah. California wildfires.

Mel Robbins: Like what do you do? How do you use this method with that?

Dr. David Rosmarin: This is where the let go comes in. There is only so much that human beings can control in this world.

Mel Robbins: I don't want that answer. You know, you're the one who says it would let them.

Dr. David Rosmarin: I know, but I'm playing the role of somebody who is in an anxious state and who — you know, because you're kind of cynical when you're anxious because you felt this way and you're like, "Doc, you don't have any idea. I know you've treated tens of thousands of people and you've got a degree and you're an expert in this and you've studied it, but you don't know what it's like. I just can't get out of my head. I can't."

Mel Robbins: I've faced my own anxiety like you wouldn't believe. And letting go — the truth is, coming from a spiritual and religious tradition, I think I have an advantage here because this is the kind of message that I've been brought up with and that I attend sermons about. And human beings are not the architects of all of world events. That's just not the way it goes. We're not in charge of the weather. We're not in charge of certain things, but we're in charge of a lot. And by refocusing on that which is within our purview and is within our control, that's using anxiety in a constructive, positive way, because that will motivate me to get up in the morning, do what I got to do, push ahead, face that adversity, have a dream and move towards it as opposed to trying to grasp control over stuff that I don't.

Dr. David Rosmarin: I mean, it makes a lot of sense. And you're the expert, and I'm sure you'll tell us, anytime you focus on or grip or worry about things that you can't control, you just create more anxiety for yourself. I mean, I don't think you need to be an expert to know that one.

Mel Robbins: So you have so many tools in your book, *Thriving with Anxiety*. What are some tools that the person who's listening can put to work right now so that anxiety enriches their relationship with themselves?

Mel Robbins: Because that's a really beautiful thing that is possible to you, that this could actually create a deeper connection that you have with yourself. For sure. I mean, off the cuff, when you feel anxious, don't squelch it. Don't get rid of the symptoms. Don't try to avoid it in your mind. Actually take the time to do a mental inventory.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Okay. That could start with a brain dump, as my wife likes to call it. Just dump all the thoughts out, unravel the yarn, take whatever's in your pockets and put it on the table and then just let it sit there. That could take 10, 15 minutes.

Mel Robbins: Okay. So you just dump everything in your brain on a piece of paper, just everything that's in there.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yep.

Mel Robbins: And then what?

Dr. David Rosmarin: And then pick out the anxiety saplings.

Mel Robbins: Okay. What does that mean?

Dr. David Rosmarin: There's going to be one or two trees, so to speak, that have roots and they really go down to a certain level. Sometimes really deep. Identify them from the other stuff. Often people come in and I ask them, what are you anxious about? And 30 minutes later, it's like, okay, I think there are two or three main themes here. You can even put it into ChatGPT and say, what are my two main themes?

Mel Robbins: You mean like do your brain dump in ChatGPT and then go, tell me what the two biggest things that I'm anxious about?

Dr. David Rosmarin: It's a language processor, right? So you can theoretically just do that.

Mel Robbins: Okay. You're going to put yourself out of a job. Keep going.

Dr. David Rosmarin: No, never. Because we all need you. I don't think so. I'm not worried about that.

Mel Robbins: So once you've done that, you've picked out the two big themes.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: What do you do?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Dig. Identify. Dig. Share.

Mel Robbins: Well, no, we're not even up to share. We're not even there? Oh, my God. We're just identifying. Okay. We're just identifying. Just go dig. What's at the root of it? What are you really afraid will happen? If your car was parked on the seventh thing and it starts to roll, whatever it is, your example from before. What's the top five things that when you do that exercise with your patients come up over and over and over and over?

Dr. David Rosmarin: It's usually one thing.

Mel Robbins: What is it?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Being alone. People are afraid of being alone, being abandoned.

Mel Robbins: Wow. I know when I've hit that. When I'm asking a patient live, firstly, when they start to tear up and I can feel the emotion in the moment, then I know I'm getting something. And often when they hit the alone elevator, like when we hit that floor on the elevator, then we're getting somewhere.

Mel Robbins: Well, it makes sense. You know, there's a doctor who's had a big impact on me, Dr. Russell Kennedy, who talks about how he believes that all anxiety is separation anxiety. Very similar. And it's separation from self mostly and your faith in yourself and your belief in yourself. And from a spiritual standpoint, if you're a very spiritual person, you also separate from the source of your belief in power because you go up in your head. And so what's interesting about that is, I think you're right. If I tick through everything that I've ever been anxious about or my kids have ever struggled with, it does come down to I'm going to be alone. It's true. That's it. That's the core, usually.

Dr. David Rosmarin: It's true.

Mel Robbins: So how do you let that fear go?

Dr. David Rosmarin: You don't. You embrace it and use it to connect other people, find ways to build your resilience with it. And then with regards to letting go, I think that's letting go of control that you can actually control it. But you don't let go of that fear. It's going to be there and that's okay.

Mel Robbins: So let's say the person listening or she is at a seven, eight or nine on the scale.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Yeah.

Mel Robbins: What is the good news that you tell that person when they walk in and begin their practice with you?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Well, first again, if they're at a seven, eight, or nine, it's probably interfering with their lives in a clinical way, in which case you're probably looking at a professional process. Now, this, whether it's the book or whether it's a workshop or whatever it is, people could probably benefit from that as well. But I wouldn't want someone who's coming in with a seven, eight, or nine where it's actually clinical, it's interfering with their lives, to just use a self-help approach. I'd probably want them to get some sort of therapy or meds.

Mel Robbins: What would you say to the person who's listening that they've been hanging on every word, they've been either thinking about their own anxiety or somebody that they care about who's really struggling with it, but there's that little bit of skepticism? You know, the urge to just kind of react like, well, I'm never like, this isn't, I don't know that this is going to work for me, which is also more of your anxiety, right? Because now you're up in your head debating and having a negative thought about the thing, the very thing that could save you. So what would you say to that person that just feels sort of discouraged or skeptical?

Dr. David Rosmarin: I don't blame you. You've been taught since birth that something's wrong with you if you're anxious. You've been taught by your parents. You've been taught by your teachers. You've been taught by society. You've seen medication advertisements on television. For years and years and years, that message was pounded into you that something is clinically, emotionally, maybe even morally wrong with you. This is a failing of your life if you feel anxious. So yeah, I don't blame you for having heard this for the first time for barely an hour, that it's not penetrating.

Mel Robbins: Wow. I mean, you just did exactly what you told us to do.

Dr. David Rosmarin: How so?

Mel Robbins: You validated.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Oh, I guess so. It just popped out of me.

Mel Robbins: How has everything that you just shared with us helped you with your anxiety?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Oh my God, so many ways. You know, I didn't always talk about it. When I got my job at Harvard Medical School, it's not the kind of thing that you speak about, right? Like you're a professor and you stand up and you have your slides and you have your figures and your facts and your data and you don't have your personal experience. That would be beneath the dignity of someone within the academy. And then, like I said, over COVID, it really changed for me because aside from the fact that I was just dealing with my own anxiety, I actually saw in my data that the patients who were coming to our programs who had clinical anxiety and got treatment before March 2020 did better throughout the rest of the pandemic. They did not have a substantial increase in anxiety. And then I was like, hold on, I'm going about this wrong. I'm treating all anxiety like it's clinical. That's not true. David, you have anxiety too. Embrace it. I started to talk to my wife about it. Had some real conversations about my fear of failure. And she's like, I've known this about you forever. You've just been hiding it together and you're annoying and you take it out on the rest of us.

Mel Robbins: She did?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Something like that. Well, she actually didn't say that. She didn't even say, I told you so. She didn't have to.

Mel Robbins: What did she say?

Dr. David Rosmarin: She did say, I know. But she held me through it. And it made us closer. It created more emotional depth in our connection.

Mel Robbins: You know what's interesting about your approach? So many people that talk about anxiety, and I know I'm certainly in this camp, because I've always focused on, all right, let's get rid of this. Let's organize our entire lives so we don't feel this thing. So let's make sure we wake up and we do this. All those things are very important because I certainly have identified the conditions or triggers or situations that can make me feel nervous on edge or anxious in an unnecessary way, like too much drinking, which then makes you wake up with anxiety. And why would you do that to yourself? Or looking at your phone first thing, which of course spikes your feelings of inferiority and puts you up in your head. So why would you do that thing? And so I think though, in listening to you, there's a huge shift in the way that you've made me think about this because you basically are saying to all of this. And you're probably going to be like, yeah, you're right, dummy. That's exactly what I said at the very beginning. But I think you need to hear it over and over to really get what you're saying. And I finally do, which is, look, zero to nine, just like you're always going to have sadness in your life, but it doesn't always turn into depression. You're always going to have on edginess and nervousness and uncertainty and doubt, which is the low-grade anxiety, or on the point scale, it's one to three and opening your arms to it rather than bracing for battle, knowing that it's coming and knowing that in those moments when it rises up in you or somebody else, instead of invalidating it, just go, oh, interesting. I'm nervous.

Dr. David Rosmarin: I love what you said about bracing for battle. That's exactly what we do.

Mel Robbins: Yeah. We think of it as the enemy right away and it's not. In fact, it's going to be there. And so learning to — and I'm one of the big takeaways that I have from our conversation is I'm not going to call it anxiety.

Dr. David Rosmarin: What are you going to call it?

Mel Robbins: Whatever it is. I'm going to call it nerves or excitement or I'm going to call it I'm feeling a little unsettled or feeling a little uncertain or I'm a little worried that I'm not going to do well on this test or I'm a little upset about something. Save your anxiety. Like I'm getting — save the word anxiety. Like I notice I'm getting ready to do something or I notice I really care about this. Like there's different ways. I noticed I'm a little worried about going to the sleep. That sounds very different than I'm very anxious about, which to your original point, calling something that's vastly different, the exact same thing. That's one thing that I know I'm going to do in my life and with people that I care about. And I'm also going to point out the thing that you're actually worried about, it would make sense that you feel that way. Let's talk more about it.

Dr. David Rosmarin: Life-changing.

Mel Robbins: Thanks. Dr. Rosmarin, what are your parting words?

Dr. David Rosmarin: Don't judge yourself for feeling anxious. Use it. It's a human emotion. Like any other human emotion, it can be used constructively in your life.

Mel Robbins: Wow. Thank you, thank you, thank you. And I also want to thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to something that there's no doubt in my mind is going to change your life. Because when you can flip the way that you think about anxiety on its head, it no longer controls you. And for far too long, I allowed anxiety to control me. I made it worse in my kids because I didn't have this four-part framework that you just learned today. And don't you deserve to have a life where you're not held hostage by your anxiety? Of course you do. And so do the people that you love. And so I just want to thank you for taking the time. And I also want to be sure to tell you, in case nobody else does today, that I love you and I believe in you and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And there's no doubt that listening to this and then taking the time to share it with somebody that you care about, it's not only going to make your life better, it's going to make their life better too. Alrighty, I'll be waiting for you in the very next episode. I'll be there to welcome you in the moment you play. I'll see you there.

[Off-mic conversation]

Mel Robbins: No, I'm from Michigan.

Dr. David Rosmarin: No kidding.

Mel Robbins: Yeah, it's very good. And then came East for college and law school, met my husband out here. Parents are still pissed.

Dr. David Rosmarin: My throat is dry. Go figure.

Mel Robbins: And then let them. So exciting. It's such an honor to be here, like I said. To meet you is super exciting. A little anxiety provoking, but in a good way.

Dr. David Rosmarin: What, like a two?

Mel Robbins: Like a two? Three and a half.

Dr. David Rosmarin: We'll take it. You did great. You didn't even show it.

Mel Robbins: Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist. And this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.