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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hi, this is Tom McTague. I'm a staff writer at The Atlantic, based in London.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Beautiful. Tom, when we spoke early last summer, we talked about Brexit and the guy who got it over the finish line, Boris Johnson.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I just want to play for you really quickly how we ended that episode.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You quickly see how he could dominate a decade in a similar way to Thatcher and Reagan dominated the 80s.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Johnson could be dominating Britain for the 20s. That's certainly, I think, his plan.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, let's get in touch in another five years and see how he's doing at that point.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We really should. Yeah, some people have blown up so bad by then that he's no longer prime minister.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And my prediction looks ludicrous. We've got five years stuck on my... People have lost track of time in this pandemic, but it's only been about six months, not five years.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tom, why are we talking again? What's going on?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because something extraordinary has happened and it's blown up and he's almost lost the premiership completely.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's just an extraordinary story.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, this is a guy who won the biggest conservative majority in 30 years, the biggest conservative majority since Margaret Thatcher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then the pandemic hit.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He had various ups and downs. He almost died during the pandemic himself.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he emerged out of it during this Omicron wave. with these snowball of stories and revelations about what had been going on inside Downing Street during this whole time that have just leaked out one after the other.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the snowball has grown and grown and grown.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It looks like it just might mow him down and take him out of Downing Street altogether.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For those who haven't been following the scandals, where does this story start?
--:-- Tom McTague: So the story starts before New Year, late towards the end of last year.
--:-- Tom McTague: And we start to get stories about gatherings and, in quotes, parties that were going on inside 10 Downing Street during the various lockdowns that Britain has gone through over the last two years during the pandemic.
--:-- Tom McTague: Last December, there was a Christmas party at number 10.
--:-- Tom McTague: A week since we learned about it, Boris Johnson's spokesperson insists there was not a party at number 10.
--:-- Tom McTague: All of these stories started to leak out.
--:-- Tom McTague: Was a Christmas party thrown in Downing Street for dozens of people on December the 18th?
--:-- Tom McTague: What I can tell the right honourable gentleman is that all guidance was followed.
--:-- Tom McTague: There's some extraordinary details that are emerging.
--:-- Tom McTague: You know, you had an email that was sent out by a senior official saying... After what's been an incredibly busy period, we thought it would be nice to make the most of the lovely weather and have some socially distanced drinks in the Number 10 Garden this evening.
--:-- Tom McTague: Please join us from 6pm and bring your own booze.
--:-- Tom McTague: And this was when the rest of the country couldn't go out of their homes to meet anyone.
--:-- Tom McTague: Even if they had dying relatives in hospital, you couldn't go and see them at the time.
--:-- Tom McTague: So you have things like that.
--:-- Tom McTague: And then you also have this leaving do. This was a leaving party. For a senior member of Johnson's team.
--:-- Tom McTague: And this is when Johnson was away from Downing Street.
--:-- Tom McTague: At one point, a staffer reportedly went to a nearby supermarket to fill an entire suitcase with bottles of wine.
--:-- Tom McTague: And when things got a little bit out of hand, one of the staff broke the prime minister's child's toy swing.
--:-- Tom McTague: So, you know, you just have this sort of image.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sounds like a rager.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, you have this strange image of, you know, things getting out of hand, people boozing in this cocoon environment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But outside, everybody else is sort of hunkered down in their homes.
--:-- Tom McTague: Now, this started to become damaging because you could date these photos and you could date these various parties that were alleged to have taken place.
--:-- Tom McTague: And then you could match them up with the rules that were for the rest of the country at the time.
--:-- Tom McTague: These were, just to sort of put it in perspective, extraordinarily draconian laws, more so than I think were ever in place in the United States.
--:-- Tom McTague: You know, this was a kind of virtual house arrest for most of the country where we couldn't go out at all or we could go out for a little bit of exercise or to see one friend in the park at a time.
--:-- Tom McTague: There was police tape over park benches and swings in the playgrounds that were closed to children.
--:-- Tom McTague: And yet this was going on in 10 Downing Street.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So that is the source of the fury.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so it's this hypocrisy that's really struck a chord with the country?
--:-- Tom McTague: That's right. You know, it's hypocrisy.
--:-- Tom McTague: It's a moral charge, really.
--:-- Tom McTague: You know, it's a sense that everybody else was taking these rules seriously.
--:-- Tom McTague: And I think this is the extraordinary nature of the crisis, you know, that I can't think of a precedent in British political history.
--:-- Tom McTague: The prime minister is, he might well lose his job.
--:-- Tom McTague: And it's not over a question of policy, like almost every other prime minister that has fallen.
--:-- Tom McTague: You know, that's how Margaret Thatcher went.
--:-- Tom McTague: That's how previous prime ministers who have made terrible mistakes have gone.
--:-- Tom McTague: This is not that.
--:-- Tom McTague: You know, Boris Johnson's lockdowns were actually supported by the country.
--:-- Tom McTague: His policies over Omicron are not particularly controversial.
--:-- Tom McTague: Nobody's really questioning Brexit at the moment or any of his main policy thrust.
--:-- Tom McTague: They're furious with him over a question of moral rectitude.
--:-- Tom McTague: And that's what makes this so different.
--:-- Tom McTague: The only parallel I can think of is Watergate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tell me about the consequences thus far for Boris.
--:-- Tom McTague: How close has this come to him losing his job?
--:-- Tom McTague: It come ever closer
--:-- Tom McTague: So it very close this week
--:-- Tom McTague: And what is happening is you had a real turn in the public who are furious at this
--:-- Tom McTague: They are bombarding their members of parliament with letters and emails expressing their fury
--:-- Tom McTague: Members of parliament are seeing this and panicking and thinking, what happens to my seat at the next election if this carries on?
--:-- Tom McTague: Then it puts the prime minister into an imperiled position, if not yet an impossible position.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today is the first day in my adult life that I've not been a member of the Conservative Party.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's that serious.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so the party in Parliament is starting to turn against the Prime Minister, furious that he can't get a grip on this and put it to bed because they're facing the fire themselves.
--:-- Tom McTague: You had a meeting earlier this week of a group of MPs that were members of Parliament that were elected in 2019 with the Johnson landslide.
--:-- Tom McTague: These were people who really owed their seats to his victory and had decided that he was a liability and they were starting to put letters of no confidence into these party bosses.
--:-- Tom McTague: And that is the mechanism that could see him go.
--:-- Tom McTague: If there is a certain number of letters that go in from members of parliament, I think it's 54 four letters are required to trigger a formal vote of no confidence in Boris Johnson as Conservative Party leader.
--:-- Tom McTague: And so he would then need to win that vote of confidence among members of Parliament for him to be able to stay on as leader.
--:-- Tom McTague: If he loses that, he's gone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what are members of Parliament saying to his face in Parliament?
--:-- Tom McTague: Absolutely extraordinary scenes here for two weeks now.
--:-- Tom McTague: A week ago, you had a kind of Rubicon crossed when the opposition party was saying formally, you need to resign.
--:-- Tom McTague: And then this week in Prime Minister's questions, this happens every week on a Wednesday, he was more punchy.
--:-- Tom McTague: And I know the rage they feel with me.
--:-- Tom McTague: He was more sort of on the front foot.
--:-- Tom McTague: I believed implicitly that this was a work event.
--:-- Tom McTague: He had this question that came down at him from a member of his own party towards the end, and a guy called David Davis.
--:-- Tom McTague: Like many on these benches, I spent weeks and months defending the Prime Minister against often angry constituents.
--:-- Tom McTague: This was a Brexiteer, senior member of the party.
--:-- Tom McTague: He had stood for the leadership in the past.
--:-- Tom McTague: This guy stood up at the back of the House of Commons and quoted one of the most famous speeches in British political history by an MP called Leo Amory that was aimed at Neville Chamberlain in 1940 when his policy of appeasement had collapsed.
--:-- Tom McTague: So Amory says to Chamberlain, in the name of God, go.
--:-- Tom McTague: And it's at this moment where Chamberlain's authority is performatively gone.
--:-- Tom McTague: Now, David Davis had stood up and quoted that speech to Boris Johnson.
--:-- Tom McTague: So I'll remind him of a quotation altogether too familiar to him of Leo Amory to Neville Chamberlain.
--:-- Tom McTague: You have sat there too long for all the good you have done.
--:-- Tom McTague: In the name of God, go.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: At the moment, what we can say is that Boris Johnson is just clinging to the one thing that might save him, which is time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He needs time just to hope that something comes about that shifts the conversation, moves it away from this sort of rolling scandal that he just has not got control of.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, the next thing that he is waiting for is this report that's coming out, an official report by a woman called Sue Gray, who is a senior civil servant.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And she is looking into exactly what happened over the last two years, which parties happened, when, who attended, who organized.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And she's going to lay it all out in a report that everyone can then look at.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that is going to a large extent decide Boris Johnson's fate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If it gives him something of a pass, he may be able to survive this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If it is particularly damning on him, then that might be curtains.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But that's the next thing that we're waiting for.
--:-- Tom McTague: And if you can get through that, who knows?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, Tom, when we spoke last summer and you told me that Boris Johnson was this potentially game changing politician, I really believed you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And had you told me last summer, you know, but you heard a rumor that he was maybe letting his staffers party at 10 Downing Street during the pandemic.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I also 100 percent would have believed that and not at all believed that it would be the thing that could potentially bring him down.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, I think the answer is the qualities that made him so effective as a politician during one particular crisis, which was Brexit, but which then turned into a kind of national stasis and humiliation for Britain where the politics were just locked.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There was like a stalemate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Boris Johnson was this weapon that the Conservative Party could deploy to end the stalemate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He was a character who was big enough and would break rules to get this crisis out of the way.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, he was fundamentally a kind of unserious figure.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, he had the misfortune of then, almost immediately after having that once in a generation, election victory, suddenly being hit over the head by an entirely different crisis.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And one, you could say, to which he is monumentally ill-suited.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And any sniff of rule-breaking that was an extraordinary political gift for him suddenly turns into an extraordinary potential political weakness.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because during the pandemic, everybody in the country was sticking to the rules
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well not everybody clearly but most people were sticking to the rules because they thought it was an incredibly serious thing
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So he goes from the guy who you quite liked breaking the rules because he was breaking rules to sock it to the Europeans you know and to stick up for the country
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Suddenly he breaking the rules that you're having to stick by
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's laughing at you now rather than at somebody else
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's why I think it's suddenly flipped
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's the kind of the sort of tragic story of Boris Johnson's political demise
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, Tom, I guess we'll check back in with you in five days to see how it's going
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It'll be Churchill by then or, you know, or Chamberlain, who knows?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We've got five days stuck on my eyes
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Five days
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What a surprise
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We've got five days
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My brain hurts a lot
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Five days
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Days
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Days
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Days
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Margot is it possible that you're still drunk do you know
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think I might be slightly
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: You're a professor of organizational behavior and psychology at Stanford University.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Throughout the pandemic we've seen public figures get in trouble for bending or breaking COVID rules.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Not far from you, California Governor Gavin Newsom, recently tennis star Novak Djokovic, and now Boris Johnson and his staff.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Why does this strike such a particular nerve in people?
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: You know, for years, we know that people who have power tend to take a lot of latitude.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: They behave in all sorts of norm-violating ways.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: In this really funny study by Paul Piff at Berkeley, they had people hiding in bushes watching which cars tended to violate more traffic rules and even cut off pedestrians.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And they found that cars like Mercedes, these high power, high status cars, were much more likely to break the rules.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And while we may be more willing to accept that powerful people are more norm violating, being in a global pandemic has raised the scrutiny we have for this kind of behavior.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: You know, we're told we have to follow the rules, and these rules are critical for our safety during COVID.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: So when our national leaders violate them, it can be really infuriating.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Of course, any society has its rule followers. and it's rule breakers.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: But are these like psychological categories?
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Are we predisposed to be one or the other?
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Yeah, that's exactly right.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: So some people tend to have what I call a tight mindset.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: They notice rules around them.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: They have a strong desire to avoid mistakes.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And they love structure.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: They love order.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And others among us have looser dispositions.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: We can be skeptical about rules.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: We're willing to take risks and are comfortable with disorder and ambiguity.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And I like to use a Muppet metaphor that Slate noted some time ago.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: You could say to yourself, are you more like Cookie Monster and Animal and Ernie who emanate chaos?
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: You know, they think it's out of the box.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: They're probably nonconformists.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: They bring mayhem wherever they go.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: They're really loose.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Or you're more like Sam the Eagle and Kermit the Frog and Bert.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: You know, these Muppet characters embody order.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: You know, I think Bert, who loves his hobbies, He's like collecting paper clips.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Were you staring at your paper clips again, Bert?
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Oh, yeah. Yeah, sure was.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: You know, Bert, you do that all the time.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Do you know that?
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Yeah.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Anything wrong with that?
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: These Muppets are tight.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And these beloved Muppet characters, they reflect something powerful about human psychology.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And over the years, we've been studying this mindset across countries, organizations, states, and even households.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: You can take my tight-loose mindset quiz on my website at michellegelfand.com.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And, you know, truth be told, I have a moderately loose mindset.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: I think I probably do, too.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: My spouse, my husband attorney veers definitely tighter than me.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And there's a lot of kind of conflicts you could have on this dimension.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: As you can imagine, like he's horrified by how I load the dishwasher.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: I get a lot of negative feedback, you know, on my dishwashing behavior.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: That's funny.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: I have a very specific way of loading the dishwasher.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: But I remember one time I traveled to Japan and there would be these red lights, but there'd be no cars as far as the eye could see.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: So having lived in New York for a long time, I would just like, you know, jaywalk and people would look at me, the Japanese people would look at me like I was some alien.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And then I was there for like two weeks and by the end of those two weeks, I had stopped jaywalking.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: I wanted to conform.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, yeah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, you had some cultural intelligence, we call it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, a lot of times when we go abroad, we don't think about these underlying cultural codes that are driving people's behavior.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And for sure, in our research, Japan veers tight and the U.S. tends to veer looser.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Even though all cultures have tight and loose domains, we can classify countries, both in the modern era and historically, in terms of how strictly they abide by rules.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: How did this dichotomy between the rule followers and the rule breakers sort of manifest itself during the pandemic, when in a lot of countries around the world, we were given rules that we were really unaccustomed to?
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: You know, the reality is that when we're under threat, it makes a lot of good sense to tighten, you know, to help coordinate and to loosen when it's safe.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And in fact, in the U.S., you know, we've seen that we were able to do this.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: We tightened under threat during World War II and 9-11.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: But, you know, COVID was different.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: It's an abstract germ that's really kind of distant and invisible and it's easier to ignore.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And what we found is that it the loose cultures that took longer to tighten across the board across 50 some odd countries
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: So you can think about it as looseness could be a liability
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Like creativity is great but it not well matched to having a global pandemic
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And so did these sort of cultural differences between the looser countries and the tighter countries have, you know, a real world impact on how the countries handled the pandemic?
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Yeah, it sure did.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: You know, we published a paper in The Lancet Planetary Health last year that showed across 57 countries that loose cultures tended to have more cases per capita and deaths per capita, like five times the cases, almost nine times the deaths.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And this was even controlling for lots of different factors, national wealth, inequality, population density, mobility, authoritarianism, lots of things.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Even above and beyond all these structural factors, culture matters.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And, you know, it was astonishing because we also found that loose cultures across the board had less fear of COVID.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Ironically, that's the case, even given how much worse they were handling the pandemic in terms of the number of cases.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: So you can think about it as like during a national or global threat, you need a very strong, consistent signal to help facilitate fear and tightening, which is adaptive under these kinds of consequences.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And if that signal gets interfered with, muted, and so forth, then tightening just doesn't happen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you think the United States might get better at tightening after this experience?
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: I mean, we covered on our show countries like Senegal, who potentially did better during this pandemic because they'd been through stuff like this before.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: That's right.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: So, I mean, that's exactly our logic around why over the course of history's tighter cultures have learned the hard way that rules make sense during collective threat.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: The U.S. and many other loose cultures, some exceptions, have not had that kind of muscle constantly challenged.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: We've had the luxury of being loose and being rule breakers.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: I think we've learned a lot.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: I hope this knowledge will be used to better deal with future threats.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What about the opposite transition?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, there will be a day, inshallah, that this pandemic is essentially over and that we can return to normal and come out of our little cocoons if we haven't already.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Will it be hard for some people who've tightened up so much to adapt back to the normal we've been seeking for so long?
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: Yeah, most definitely.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: A lot of our research, both kind of in the laboratory, but also using computational models, these kind of simulations, shows that it takes a lot longer for tight groups to loosen.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And part of that relates to that increased sense of fear.
--:-- Michelle Gelfand: And so, you know, we need to help people in tighter groups to take small steps toward normal sleep and make them feel like it's safe, you know, to kind of start to explore, start to kind of gradually loosen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Just like it took loose groups longer to tighten, it's likely to take tight groups longer to loosen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Boris Johnson, though, he seems ahead of the curve.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Apparently so.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Michelle Gelfand is a professor at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, Go Trees.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find out whether you've got a loose or tight mindset or something in between at her website.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's michellegelfand.com slash tl-quiz.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's Michelle with one l gelfand, g-e-l-f-a-n-d.com. slash T-L-quiz.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I went. I'm moderately loose.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Everything in moderation, even moderation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's what my uncle tells me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Earlier in the show, you heard from Tom McTague.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's a staff writer at The Atlantic.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find them at theatlantic.com, but not atlantic.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I sometimes make that mistake.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's unpleasant.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today, Explained is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We use music from the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder and Noam Hassenfeld.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our veep of audio at Vox is Liz Kelly Nelson.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our supervising producer at Today Explained is Amina Alsadi.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our show today was produced by Will Reed, edited by Matthew Collette, engineered by Afim Shapiro, and fact-checked by Laura Bullard.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The rest of the team includes Miles Bryan, Halima Shah, Victoria Chamberlain, Heidi Mwagdi and Noelle King.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Recall that in less than one month now, this show will be hosted by not one, but two people.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're getting ready.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're really excited.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we were wondering if you want to get to know Noelle a bit better before you hear her on the regular.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're toying with the idea of doing a live event, virtually, of course, where, you know, today, Explain listeners can spend some time with the show's hosts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Noelle and I will interview each other, take your questions, Maybe our old pal Noam will sing a song or two.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is that something you'd want to attend virtually?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Of course, let us know.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There are literally so many ways.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You could tweet at the show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're at today underscore explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You could send us an email.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're today explained at vox.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I guess I'm on Instagram.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I've never really said contact me there, but a lot of people do so anyway.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My email address at work is pretty simple, sean at fox.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I guess we both have personal email accounts too, but that feels excessive, don't you think?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What about good old-fashioned snail mail?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Send us a postcard.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The office is going to be a postcard.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I would do anything for love.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, I would do anything for love.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I would do anything for love, but I won't do that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: No, I won't do that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Fur bomber
