--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Noelle King: It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King. Vladimir Putin may not have a lot of friends, but he's got an ace in the hole. The war equals guns plus ideas. So essentially the church is the main provider of ideas, giving legitimacy for the war. A take on Patriarch Kirill. He's the leader of the Russian Orthodox Church. And he has made so many pro-war statements that Pope Francis on a Zoom call reportedly warned him not to become Putin's altar boy.
--:-- Noelle King: Now all of this has left one person who knows Kirill thinking the patriarch has made a deal with the devil because this is not the Kirill he remembers. He remembers a religious man who many years ago didn't have much use for the Kremlin. Coming up, we talk to the priest who knew the patriarch who made Russia's war holy.
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--:-- Noelle King: I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. Father Cyril Hovarun is a professor at the Stockholm School of Theology in Sweden. He teaches ecclesiology, international relations, and ecumenism. Before that, he worked with Patriarch Kirill for about 10 years. Well, he's also known as the primate of an Orthodox Church. The primate means he's the top hierarch in the Church who manages the matters of the entire Church, including the bishops.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: We are not exactly like the Catholic Church, which has only one Pope. We have several primates, like popes in different churches. And the Russian church is the largest one. And Patriarch Kirill is the most senior hierarch of that church. He has run a very successful TV show on one of the Russian central channels. That TV show was really kind of evangelizing, you know, explaining people the gospel. And I should say that the original intention of Kirill was exactly to re-evangelize the Russian people after the collapse of the Soviet ideology.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think the Pope of Rome is a sort of ideal for him or Billy Graham in the United States in the American context. You have the ability to choose whether you will follow God or go your own way. He wants to be a prominent religious figure not just for Russia, but for the entire globe. It seems to be not working for him because he has become a prominent figure in Russia. He has been included and accepted to the Russian establishment as the kind of top-notch, top-ranked official. But he failed to become a global religious leader. That is quite clear now.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: And it seems that one cannot be simultaneously a top religious leader in Russia and globally. He is in his 70s, which means Russia was the Soviet Union when he was born, yeah? Exactly. He's from a priestly family. His father was a priest indeed. And generally his family was a traditional Russian family of, you know, hardworking people, pious people who attended the church, churchgoers.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: The Soviet Union was officially an atheist state, meaning the state formally tolerated religion as a private thing. But even as a private thing, religion was persecuted in the Soviet Union. The Soviet ideal, the communist ideal, was to purge religion from all pockets of the Soviet society, even from the private lives of people. That meant that someone who wanted to practice their Christianity, especially a younger person, was severely oppressed.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: That person would be literally ostracized from everything. The only work that such a person might have had was a janitor. So no intellectual work. So a complete, complete marginalization. One night, I was thrown into a cell with a broken window. The KGB was determined to do an experiment and freeze me.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Many of them, under Stalin, before the World War II, most bishops and most priests and most monks and nuns were killed, literally. Before the revolution in 1914, there were about 70,000 representatives of the clergy in Russia. But by the end of 1937, only 100 remained alive and free. And exactly under such conditions, the future Patriarch Kirill grew up, and he still thinks that the church has reached the position of being prominent in the public space, just the opposite from what it was in the Soviet era.
--:-- Noelle King: You're laying out an arc in which to be a member of the Christian church is to be maligned and the church itself as an institution is maligned. How then and when did the church begin to develop a relationship with the atheist Kremlin?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: It always had a relationship with the atheist Kremlin, quite surprisingly. So on the one hand, the Kremlin, the communist regime killed, exterminated the church, literally. On the other hand, it used some church hierarchs. Their lives were threatened and the Kremlin forced those hierarchs to collaborate.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: After World War II, it was easier that hierarchs were not threatened with imprisonment or being killed, but they were urged to collaborate with the state by different privileges and benefits. For example, in the situation when the entire country was behind the iron curtain and they could not leave the country, could not go abroad, some hierarchs who agreed to collaborate with the Soviet regime were allowed to leave the country to go abroad in order exactly to disseminate the propaganda that the Soviet state wanted them to bring to the West.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: They, for example, said that The church is fine in the Soviet Union. It's not persecuted. Which was a lie, of course. But that's how the Soviet states started using the church in the Soviet period to disseminate its propaganda in the West and in the East in different contexts.
--:-- Noelle King: You have this young priest, Kirill, who's rising through the ranks of that church. And it sounds to me like as a young man, he doesn't like the Kremlin at all.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: In the beginning, he was quite anti-Soviet, I should say. He grew up and matured as a personality with aversion to the Soviet ideology, to the Soviet lifestyle, even to the KGB. I think he was, in the beginning of his career in the church, he was quite a non-conformist. He was accused widely of being too modernist, too modernizing, too much an open-minded person.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: And indeed, I believe he was a very open-minded person. And then after he became the Patriarch, I think he changed as a personality dramatically. He made it like a U-turn. From the most open-minded hierarchy of the Russian Church, he became probably the most conservative.
--:-- Noelle King: Father Cyril, when does Kirill become patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church? How does he get into that position of power?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: It was in 2009, and this was exactly the period when Putin was not the president. And I'm not sure that Putin would have supported Kirill if Putin was the president at the time. They were not exactly friends, and they are not still friends, I believe.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I describe their relationship as a marriage of convenience rather than the marriage of love. Because of Kirill's non-conformism, and Putin knew about that because Putin is to his bones as a KGB person, that created some kind of, I think, bad chemistry between the two personalities.
--:-- Noelle King: Father, I could understand why someone needs Vladimir Putin. He is a dangerous man. He is the leader of Russia. He is not someone that you want to cross. How does a priest, how does a holy man become so influential that Vladimir Putin has no choice but to work with him?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think it was Putin's choice to work with Kirill. Kirill made himself useful to Putin by providing this ideology of the Russian world that actually substituted the Soviet ideology. So Putin actually received two precious things from the church under Kirill. The first thing was the ideology. Kirill really hated the communist ideology. I think Putin also hated the communist ideology and still hates the communist ideology.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: His generation was unable to produce any substitute for the Soviet ideology. And essentially what Kirill did, he offered a substitute for the communist ideology, which features the symbolism and the fears from the Soviet era. For example, it includes the admiration of Stalin. Even though Stalin had killed most bishops and priests of the Russian Church, now many priests and bishops in the Russian Church admire Stalin.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Another part is this monarchical idea, the idea of monarchy. Many in the Russian Church present Putin as a sort of a new monarch, a new tsar, a successor of the Romanovs. Essentially, this ideology of the Russian world is a sort of nationalism. It states essentially that Russia is not just about the Russian ethnos, the Russian nation. Russia is wider. It's about the inclusion of other nations to the framework of the Russians, what they call civilization.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: And it includes Chechens or Burjats or Dagestani people and Ukrainians. I'm a Daghestani, I'm a Chechen, an English, Russian, a Tatarian, a Jew, a Mordvian, an Ossetian. So they believe that the Ukrainians owe to be a part of this Russian civilization. Therefore, they believe that they don't attack another nation, they liberate their own nation from their western influence and from their wrong identity.
--:-- Noelle King: So I'll start with that modern Ukraine was completely created by Russia. That is because they believe in this Russian world which is wider than Russia. And they believe that this Russian civilization has an exceptional role to play in the history. Hence, it's a messianic character of this civilization. They believe that God wants Russia to play a special role in this world, to sustain the basic principles of this world, the basic values of this world against the assumed Western corruption and decadence.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: And Putin went to the war, essentially not so much even against Ukraine as against the West. And he believes that he has this special historical mission to liberate the world from itself.
--:-- Noelle King: Does he really believe this ideology, one in which a Christian church is okay with Joseph Stalin?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think in the beginning, I believe Patrick Kirill, when I knew him, he could not tolerate the figure of Stalin, certainly. He was anti-Stalinist. As he continued to be the patriarch and continued to produce this ideology, I think he came to tolerate Stalin more and more because Putin believes himself to be a sort of reincarnation of Stalin. Kirill supports it, even though I don't believe that he is still kind of sincerely deeply in his soul is in sympathy with the figure of Stalin.
--:-- Noelle King: I guess you could determine if this strategy is working by asking how many Russians practice Orthodox Christianity and whether that number is growing under Patriarch Kirill.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Sociological data indicate that how his project of evangelizing the Russian people failed because the number of those who started going to the church, the churchgoers, did not increase dramatically. It still does not exceed 5% of the total population, which is really, really tiny. Yeah, it's tiny. But the numbers of those who support his ideology, his secular ideology, you know, this Russian nationalism ideology or Russian exceptionalism ideology is very high, extremely high. It's over 80%.
--:-- Noelle King: What does the indoctrination look like with respect to the war in Ukraine? What's he saying to Russians?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Patriarch Kirill just repeats the talking points of the Kremlin propagandists and speakers, including Putin himself. Actually, I would say that Putin speaks the language of the church to a great extent. And uses the vocabulary which had been produced by the church and which includes the notions such as traditional values, meaning the conservative agenda, which is, by the way, widely spread in the United States through the conservative evangelicals or conservative Catholics.
--:-- Noelle King: I hear some voices in the West that say it's all about Putin. If Putin is gone, the Russian people will come back to the normal. No, it's not going to happen. If he's gone, Putinism will stay. And this Putinism I believe unfortunately will be sustained by the Church if there are no changes happening to the Church and to the Russian society.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: So you said that a lot of Orthodox churches in Ukraine are still part of the Russian Orthodox church. The patriarch of that church is saying things akin to this is a holy war, this is a justified invasion. How are Ukrainian Christians responding?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Yes, they are absolutely disappointed and stunned by such declarations and such statements. Even as I said in the beginning, even those who originally supported Russia, were in favor of Russia, regardless of what happened in Ukraine in 2014, they are really averted from Russia.
--:-- Noelle King: So I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. We're back with Fr Cyril Hovarun. Fr Cyril, when does Kirill become patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church? How does he get into that position of power?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: It was in 2009, and this was exactly the period when Putin was not the president. And I'm not sure that Putin would have supported Kirill if Putin was the president at the time. They were not exactly friends, and they are not still friends, I believe.
--:-- Noelle King: Father, I could understand why someone needs Vladimir Putin. He is a dangerous man. He is the leader of Russia. He is not someone that you want to cross. How does a priest, how does a holy man become so influential that Vladimir Putin has no choice but to work with him?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think it was Putin's choice to work with Kirill. Kirill made himself useful to Putin by providing this ideology of the Russian world that actually substituted the Soviet ideology. So Putin actually received two precious things from the church under Kirill. The first thing was the ideology. Kirill really hated the communist ideology. I think Putin also hated the communist ideology and still hates the communist ideology.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: His generation was unable to produce any substitute for the Soviet ideology. And essentially what Kirill did, he offered a substitute for the communist ideology, which features the symbolism and the fears from the Soviet era. For example, it includes the admiration of Stalin. Even though Stalin had killed most bishops and priests of the Russian Church, now many priests and bishops in the Russian Church admire Stalin.
--:-- Noelle King: Does he really believe this ideology, one in which a Christian church is okay with Joseph Stalin?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think in the beginning, I believe Patrick Kirill, when I knew him, he could not tolerate the figure of Stalin, certainly. He was anti-Stalinist. As he continued to be the patriarch and continued to produce this ideology, I think he came to tolerate Stalin more and more because Putin believes himself to be a sort of reincarnation of Stalin. Kirill supports it, even though I don't believe that he is still kind of sincerely deeply in his soul is in sympathy with the figure of Stalin.
--:-- Noelle King: I guess you could determine if this strategy is working by asking how many Russians practice Orthodox Christianity and whether that number is growing under Patriarch Kirill.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Sociological data indicate that how his project of evangelizing the Russian people failed because the number of those who started going to the church, the churchgoers, did not increase dramatically. It still does not exceed 5% of the total population, which is really, really tiny. Yeah, it's tiny. But the numbers of those who support his ideology, his secular ideology, you know, this Russian nationalism ideology or Russian exceptionalism ideology is very high, extremely high. It's over 80%.
--:-- Noelle King: What does the indoctrination look like with respect to the war in Ukraine? What's he saying to Russians?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Patriarch Kirill just repeats the talking points of the Kremlin propagandists and speakers, including Putin himself. Actually, I would say that Putin speaks the language of the church to a great extent. And uses the vocabulary which had been produced by the church and which includes the notions such as traditional values, meaning the conservative agenda, which is, by the way, widely spread in the United States through the conservative evangelicals or conservative Catholics.
--:-- Noelle King: I hear some voices in the West that say it's all about Putin. If Putin is gone, the Russian people will come back to the normal. No, it's not going to happen. If he's gone, Putinism will stay. And this Putinism I believe unfortunately will be sustained by the Church if there are no changes happening to the Church and to the Russian society.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: So you said that a lot of Orthodox churches in Ukraine are still part of the Russian Orthodox church. The patriarch of that church is saying things akin to this is a holy war, this is a justified invasion. How are Ukrainian Christians responding?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Yes, they are absolutely disappointed and stunned by such declarations and such statements. Even as I said in the beginning, even those who originally supported Russia, were in favor of Russia, regardless of what happened in Ukraine in 2014, they are really averted from Russia.
--:-- Noelle King: So I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. We're back with Fr Cyril Hovarun. Fr Cyril, when does Kirill become patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church? How does he get into that position of power?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: It was in 2009, and this was exactly the period when Putin was not the president. And I'm not sure that Putin would have supported Kirill if Putin was the president at the time. They were not exactly friends, and they are not still friends, I believe.
--:-- Noelle King: Father, I could understand why someone needs Vladimir Putin. He is a dangerous man. He is the leader of Russia. He is not someone that you want to cross. How does a priest, how does a holy man become so influential that Vladimir Putin has no choice but to work with him?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think it was Putin's choice to work with Kirill. Kirill made himself useful to Putin by providing this ideology of the Russian world that actually substituted the Soviet ideology. So Putin actually received two precious things from the church under Kirill. The first thing was the ideology. Kirill really hated the communist ideology. I think Putin also hated the communist ideology and still hates the communist ideology.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: His generation was unable to produce any substitute for the Soviet ideology. And essentially what Kirill did, he offered a substitute for the communist ideology, which features the symbolism and the fears from the Soviet era. For example, it includes the admiration of Stalin. Even though Stalin had killed most bishops and priests of the Russian Church, now many priests and bishops in the Russian Church admire Stalin.
--:-- Noelle King: Does he really believe this ideology, one in which a Christian church is okay with Joseph Stalin?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think in the beginning, I believe Patrick Kirill, when I knew him, he could not tolerate the figure of Stalin, certainly. He was anti-Stalinist. As he continued to be the patriarch and continued to produce this ideology, I think he came to tolerate Stalin more and more because Putin believes himself to be a sort of reincarnation of Stalin. Kirill supports it, even though I don't believe that he is still kind of sincerely deeply in his soul is in sympathy with the figure of Stalin.
--:-- Noelle King: I guess you could determine if this strategy is working by asking how many Russians practice Orthodox Christianity and whether that number is growing under Patriarch Kirill.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Sociological data indicate that how his project of evangelizing the Russian people failed because the number of those who started going to the church, the churchgoers, did not increase dramatically. It still does not exceed 5% of the total population, which is really, really tiny. Yeah, it's tiny. But the numbers of those who support his ideology, his secular ideology, you know, this Russian nationalism ideology or Russian exceptionalism ideology is very high, extremely high. It's over 80%.
--:-- Noelle King: What does the indoctrination look like with respect to the war in Ukraine? What's he saying to Russians?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Patriarch Kirill just repeats the talking points of the Kremlin propagandists and speakers, including Putin himself. Actually, I would say that Putin speaks the language of the church to a great extent. And uses the vocabulary which had been produced by the church and which includes the notions such as traditional values, meaning the conservative agenda, which is, by the way, widely spread in the United States through the conservative evangelicals or conservative Catholics.
--:-- Noelle King: I hear some voices in the West that say it's all about Putin. If Putin is gone, the Russian people will come back to the normal. No, it's not going to happen. If he's gone, Putinism will stay. And this Putinism I believe unfortunately will be sustained by the Church if there are no changes happening to the Church and to the Russian society.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: So you said that a lot of Orthodox churches in Ukraine are still part of the Russian Orthodox church. The patriarch of that church is saying things akin to this is a holy war, this is a justified invasion. How are Ukrainian Christians responding?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Yes, they are absolutely disappointed and stunned by such declarations and such statements. Even as I said in the beginning, even those who originally supported Russia, were in favor of Russia, regardless of what happened in Ukraine in 2014, they are really averted from Russia.
--:-- Noelle King: So I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. We're back with Fr Cyril Hovarun. Fr Cyril, when does Kirill become patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church? How does he get into that position of power?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: It was in 2009, and this was exactly the period when Putin was not the president. And I'm not sure that Putin would have supported Kirill if Putin was the president at the time. They were not exactly friends, and they are not still friends, I believe.
--:-- Noelle King: Father, I could understand why someone needs Vladimir Putin. He is a dangerous man. He is the leader of Russia. He is not someone that you want to cross. How does a priest, how does a holy man become so influential that Vladimir Putin has no choice but to work with him?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think it was Putin's choice to work with Kirill. Kirill made himself useful to Putin by providing this ideology of the Russian world that actually substituted the Soviet ideology. So Putin actually received two precious things from the church under Kirill. The first thing was the ideology. Kirill really hated the communist ideology. I think Putin also hated the communist ideology and still hates the communist ideology.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: His generation was unable to produce any substitute for the Soviet ideology. And essentially what Kirill did, he offered a substitute for the communist ideology, which features the symbolism and the fears from the Soviet era. For example, it includes the admiration of Stalin. Even though Stalin had killed most bishops and priests of the Russian Church, now many priests and bishops in the Russian Church admire Stalin.
--:-- Noelle King: Does he really believe this ideology, one in which a Christian church is okay with Joseph Stalin?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think in the beginning, I believe Patrick Kirill, when I knew him, he could not tolerate the figure of Stalin, certainly. He was anti-Stalinist. As he continued to be the patriarch and continued to produce this ideology, I think he came to tolerate Stalin more and more because Putin believes himself to be a sort of reincarnation of Stalin. Kirill supports it, even though I don't believe that he is still kind of sincerely deeply in his soul is in sympathy with the figure of Stalin.
--:-- Noelle King: I guess you could determine if this strategy is working by asking how many Russians practice Orthodox Christianity and whether that number is growing under Patriarch Kirill.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Sociological data indicate that how his project of evangelizing the Russian people failed because the number of those who started going to the church, the churchgoers, did not increase dramatically. It still does not exceed 5% of the total population, which is really, really tiny. Yeah, it's tiny. But the numbers of those who support his ideology, his secular ideology, you know, this Russian nationalism ideology or Russian exceptionalism ideology is very high, extremely high. It's over 80%.
--:-- Noelle King: What does the indoctrination look like with respect to the war in Ukraine? What's he saying to Russians?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Patriarch Kirill just repeats the talking points of the Kremlin propagandists and speakers, including Putin himself. Actually, I would say that Putin speaks the language of the church to a great extent. And uses the vocabulary which had been produced by the church and which includes the notions such as traditional values, meaning the conservative agenda, which is, by the way, widely spread in the United States through the conservative evangelicals or conservative Catholics.
--:-- Noelle King: I hear some voices in the West that say it's all about Putin. If Putin is gone, the Russian people will come back to the normal. No, it's not going to happen. If he's gone, Putinism will stay. And this Putinism I believe unfortunately will be sustained by the Church if there are no changes happening to the Church and to the Russian society.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: So you said that a lot of Orthodox churches in Ukraine are still part of the Russian Orthodox church. The patriarch of that church is saying things akin to this is a holy war, this is a justified invasion. How are Ukrainian Christians responding?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Yes, they are absolutely disappointed and stunned by such declarations and such statements. Even as I said in the beginning, even those who originally supported Russia, were in favor of Russia, regardless of what happened in Ukraine in 2014, they are really averted from Russia.
--:-- Noelle King: So I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. We're back with Fr Cyril Hovarun. Fr Cyril, when does Kirill become patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church? How does he get into that position of power?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: It was in 2009, and this was exactly the period when Putin was not the president. And I'm not sure that Putin would have supported Kirill if Putin was the president at the time. They were not exactly friends, and they are not still friends, I believe.
--:-- Noelle King: Father, I could understand why someone needs Vladimir Putin. He is a dangerous man. He is the leader of Russia. He is not someone that you want to cross. How does a priest, how does a holy man become so influential that Vladimir Putin has no choice but to work with him?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think it was Putin's choice to work with Kirill. Kirill made himself useful to Putin by providing this ideology of the Russian world that actually substituted the Soviet ideology. So Putin actually received two precious things from the church under Kirill. The first thing was the ideology. Kirill really hated the communist ideology. I think Putin also hated the communist ideology and still hates the communist ideology.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: His generation was unable to produce any substitute for the Soviet ideology. And essentially what Kirill did, he offered a substitute for the communist ideology, which features the symbolism and the fears from the Soviet era. For example, it includes the admiration of Stalin. Even though Stalin had killed most bishops and priests of the Russian Church, now many priests and bishops in the Russian Church admire Stalin.
--:-- Noelle King: Does he really believe this ideology, one in which a Christian church is okay with Joseph Stalin?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think in the beginning, I believe Patrick Kirill, when I knew him, he could not tolerate the figure of Stalin, certainly. He was anti-Stalinist. As he continued to be the patriarch and continued to produce this ideology, I think he came to tolerate Stalin more and more because Putin believes himself to be a sort of reincarnation of Stalin. Kirill supports it, even though I don't believe that he is still kind of sincerely deeply in his soul is in sympathy with the figure of Stalin.
--:-- Noelle King: I guess you could determine if this strategy is working by asking how many Russians practice Orthodox Christianity and whether that number is growing under Patriarch Kirill.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Sociological data indicate that how his project of evangelizing the Russian people failed because the number of those who started going to the church, the churchgoers, did not increase dramatically. It still does not exceed 5% of the total population, which is really, really tiny. Yeah, it's tiny. But the numbers of those who support his ideology, his secular ideology, you know, this Russian nationalism ideology or Russian exceptionalism ideology is very high, extremely high. It's over 80%.
--:-- Noelle King: What does the indoctrination look like with respect to the war in Ukraine? What's he saying to Russians?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Patriarch Kirill just repeats the talking points of the Kremlin propagandists and speakers, including Putin himself. Actually, I would say that Putin speaks the language of the church to a great extent. And uses the vocabulary which had been produced by the church and which includes the notions such as traditional values, meaning the conservative agenda, which is, by the way, widely spread in the United States through the conservative evangelicals or conservative Catholics.
--:-- Noelle King: I hear some voices in the West that say it's all about Putin. If Putin is gone, the Russian people will come back to the normal. No, it's not going to happen. If he's gone, Putinism will stay. And this Putinism I believe unfortunately will be sustained by the Church if there are no changes happening to the Church and to the Russian society.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: So you said that a lot of Orthodox churches in Ukraine are still part of the Russian Orthodox church. The patriarch of that church is saying things akin to this is a holy war, this is a justified invasion. How are Ukrainian Christians responding?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Yes, they are absolutely disappointed and stunned by such declarations and such statements. Even as I said in the beginning, even those who originally supported Russia, were in favor of Russia, regardless of what happened in Ukraine in 2014, they are really averted from Russia.
--:-- Noelle King: So I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. We're back with Fr Cyril Hovarun. Fr Cyril, when does Kirill become patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church? How does he get into that position of power?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: It was in 2009, and this was exactly the period when Putin was not the president. And I'm not sure that Putin would have supported Kirill if Putin was the president at the time. They were not exactly friends, and they are not still friends, I believe.
--:-- Noelle King: Father, I could understand why someone needs Vladimir Putin. He is a dangerous man. He is the leader of Russia. He is not someone that you want to cross. How does a priest, how does a holy man become so influential that Vladimir Putin has no choice but to work with him?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think it was Putin's choice to work with Kirill. Kirill made himself useful to Putin by providing this ideology of the Russian world that actually substituted the Soviet ideology. So Putin actually received two precious things from the church under Kirill. The first thing was the ideology. Kirill really hated the communist ideology. I think Putin also hated the communist ideology and still hates the communist ideology.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: His generation was unable to produce any substitute for the Soviet ideology. And essentially what Kirill did, he offered a substitute for the communist ideology, which features the symbolism and the fears from the Soviet era. For example, it includes the admiration of Stalin. Even though Stalin had killed most bishops and priests of the Russian Church, now many priests and bishops in the Russian Church admire Stalin.
--:-- Noelle King: Does he really believe this ideology, one in which a Christian church is okay with Joseph Stalin?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: I think in the beginning, I believe Patrick Kirill, when I knew him, he could not tolerate the figure of Stalin, certainly. He was anti-Stalinist. As he continued to be the patriarch and continued to produce this ideology, I think he came to tolerate Stalin more and more because Putin believes himself to be a sort of reincarnation of Stalin. Kirill supports it, even though I don't believe that he is still kind of sincerely deeply in his soul is in sympathy with the figure of Stalin.
--:-- Noelle King: I guess you could determine if this strategy is working by asking how many Russians practice Orthodox Christianity and whether that number is growing under Patriarch Kirill.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Sociological data indicate that how his project of evangelizing the Russian people failed because the number of those who started going to the church, the churchgoers, did not increase dramatically. It still does not exceed 5% of the total population, which is really, really tiny. Yeah, it's tiny. But the numbers of those who support his ideology, his secular ideology, you know, this Russian nationalism ideology or Russian exceptionalism ideology is very high, extremely high. It's over 80%.
--:-- Noelle King: What does the indoctrination look like with respect to the war in Ukraine? What's he saying to Russians?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Patriarch Kirill just repeats the talking points of the Kremlin propagandists and speakers, including Putin himself. Actually, I would say that Putin speaks the language of the church to a great extent. And uses the vocabulary which had been produced by the church and which includes the notions such as traditional values, meaning the conservative agenda, which is, by the way, widely spread in the United States through the conservative evangelicals or conservative Catholics.
--:-- Noelle King: I hear some voices in the West that say it's all about Putin. If Putin is gone, the Russian people will come back to the normal. No, it's not going to happen. If he's gone, Putinism will stay. And this Putinism I believe unfortunately will be sustained by the Church if there are no changes happening to the Church and to the Russian society.
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: So you said that a lot of Orthodox churches in Ukraine are still part of the Russian Orthodox church. The patriarch of that church is saying things akin to this is a holy war, this is a justified invasion. How are Ukrainian Christians responding?
--:-- Father Cyril Hovarun: Yes, they are absolutely disappointed and
