--:-- [Sound of a podcast intro]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Noel King: And I'm Noel King.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today, we're talking about a story that's both ridiculous and infuriating. Writer Devin Friedman has wanted a pool since he was a kid. As an adult, he saved tens of thousands of dollars to install one, but nothing went as planned.
--:-- Noel King: That's right. Devin's story is a wild ride, and we hope you can learn something from it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, Devin, let's start at the beginning. You've always wanted a pool, right?
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, I remember when I was young and there were the kids who had a pool, and then there were the rest of us. I was the rest of us. I always thought it would be amazing to have a pool. Like, that was the height of luxury to me.
--:-- Noel King: And you finally had the chance to get one when you were an adult.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, I had saved up tens of thousands of dollars, and I was ready to go. I wanted to copy Bobby and Eric's pool completely, have it look exactly the same, give us the Bobby and Eric special.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, you hired a contractor named Gary Kruglitz to build your pool.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, we visited him, we figured out how big we wanted it, and we basically said, let's copy Bobby and Eric's pool completely. And he said yes.
--:-- Noel King: And then things started to go wrong.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, Gary is a man who seems like he was frozen in amber in 1968 and just popped out and is like surprised that cell phones exist. He wears short-sleeve dress shirts and a robust mustache, and he's the kind of person who answers his phone with a "yellow."
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [laughs]
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, that's him.
--:-- Noel King: So, Gary is your pool contractor, but he's also a bit of a character.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, he's very busy, and we're late in the pandemic, and everyone's trying to renovate their house. Everyone's moved out to the country and is bringing their obnoxious city ways to the quiet countryside and being obnoxious.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you're among those people, doing that.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, we were mostly worried with Gary about when can you do this because we knew it was going to be at least six months, and then a season so short that if you don't get that construction started in the spring, you will not have your pool ready for that summer, and then it's just like you might as well just install it the next year.
--:-- Noel King: So, you're being a bit obnoxious, demanding to know when Gary will start building your pool.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, we gave him a very small deposit when we signed the contract in the winter, and then he was like, okay, well, you're first in line.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But then Gary just disappeared.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, he like disappeared. He was building someone else's pool. My wife got really mad because she was like, you promised that we would be the first pool of the season. You promised.
--:-- Noel King: And you were emailing and emailing and emailing him, and calling him all the time, but he wasn't returning your phone calls or emails.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, we were like very anxious about that. And then suddenly he did return our emails.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he said he was going to start building your pool.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, he emailed and he's like, okay, you're next. Things are crazy. It's the pandemic. A lot of the bank branches are closed. The guys that are working for me are not able to go to the bank.
--:-- Noel King: So, Gary is saying that he's going to start building your pool, but he needs you to send him the deposit via Zelle.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, he said, okay, well, you know, the max is $5,000. So like, well, the first day he was like, send $3,500. And then it was like $5,000, $5,000. And then, you know, we have a little more materials, $3,500, blah, blah, blah, blah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Over the next 11 days, you ended up transferring about $31,000 to Gary via Zelle.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, as you're sending these Zelle payments, many, many Zelle payments numbering in the $3,500 to $5,000 range, at any point, were you hesitating or were you just smashing the send button?
--:-- Noel King: You know, I was worried that we did not have any documentation from him that he had received this money, that he could be like, well, I never got the money, you know, sorry.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, so we said, can you please send us a receipt for the money that you've received? And he said, yeah, for sure. You know, all on email.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Gary sent you a receipt, which looked legit.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, it looked legit. You thought you were in good shape.
--:-- Noel King: Yeah, yeah.
--:-- Devin Friedman: And did he come over and start building your pool?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: No, he didn't.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Well, the day he said that he was going to be there, we got an email that morning that was like, I'm on your road. Send the last payment. I'm there. You know, we'll be I'll see you in a few minutes.
--:-- Noel King: And then hours pass, and Gary doesn't show up.
--:-- Devin Friedman: We're we start calling his office. The woman who answers his phones is like really annoyed. OK, Devin, we've heard from you before. We know you're calling a lot. Gary will get back to you as soon as he can.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then you finally get Gary on the phone.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, my wife is talking to him, and she says, where are you? And he's like, what do you mean? She's like, you said you were on our road. You emailed us this morning, and you said you were getting started, and that you were on our road. And it's been five hours since you said you were on our road.
--:-- Noel King: And Gary just says, I haven't emailed you for a month.
--:-- Devin Friedman: And my wife literally fell onto the floor in the kitchen and looked at me and she said, holy shit!
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [laughs]
--:-- Devin Friedman: And then we realized that we had been scammed.
--:-- Noel King: Yeah, we were sending money to someone who wasn't Gary Kruglitz.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, someone had hacked into Gary's email account and was sending and receiving emails from his account as him, but having us pay some people who Gary did not know and we did not know.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you didn't realize that you were being scammed until it was too late.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, we thought we were in good shape, but we weren't.
--:-- Noel King: So, what did you do next?
--:-- Devin Friedman: We got on the phone and got some client services people on the phone from our bank. We called up every law enforcement official we could think of. We decided, like, let's not be total victims. Let's go after it. Let's get our money back.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And did you get your money back?
--:-- Devin Friedman: No, we didn't. Local law enforcement was like the most responsive, but it's like a very small town in western Massachusetts. I think there's three policemen. There might be two.
--:-- Noel King: And they didn't have an internet crimes division.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, the guy came and sat at our kitchen table and pulled out a notebook and wrote his first question is, who is Zell?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [laughs]
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, that's right.
--:-- Noel King: So, Devin, let's talk about Zelle. What is Zelle?
--:-- Devin Friedman: Zelle is a fast, safe, and easy way to send and receive money with friends, family, and others you trust, no matter where they bank.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Zelle is owned by a consortium of the largest banks in America.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, Bank of America, Chase, Wells Fargo, PNC, I think, you know, I think seven of them, if I'm if I'm not mistaken.
--:-- Noel King: And when money goes into your account directly, you can live delightfully.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Zelle, look for it in your banking app.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And where did this company come from?
--:-- Devin Friedman: Basically, it was another case of the internet causing a race to the bottom. Peer-to-peer payment apps launched in the United States. You know, PayPal, Venmo, Cash App, stuff like that.
--:-- Noel King: And they were seen as a threat to the big banks because these big banks couldn't do the same thing.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, they couldn't pay your friend $10 instantly the way you could with Venmo.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, the big banks felt like they had to come up with their own peer-to-peer payment app in order not to get their lunch eaten by fintech.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, and so they launched Zelle, and it became incredibly popular.
--:-- Noel King: But Devin, you had a problem with Zelle.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, I did. I sent $31,000 to someone who wasn't Gary Kruglitz.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Zelle didn't help you get your money back.
--:-- Devin Friedman: No, they didn't. I called Zelle and said, I need my $31,000 back.
--:-- Noel King: And Zelle said they have no one available to talk to you about this.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, they said, we have a strong set of technology controls and practices in place today and continually enhance those controls.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But Devin, you're saying that Zelle is not safe.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, I am. When someone is defrauded, you claim that's the customer's problem.
--:-- Noel King: And Devin, you're not the only one who's had a problem with Zelle.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, there are some legislators who are trying to push legislation to get these transactions insured and protect customers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Devin, you've written about your experience with Zelle.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, I have. It's called The Great Zelle Pool Scam.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Zelle responded to your story.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, they said, Zelle is designed to help protect customers and stop scams before they happen.
--:-- Noel King: But Devin, you're saying that Zelle didn't protect you.
--:-- Devin Friedman: Yeah, I am.