--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Noel King: A year ago today, when Russia invaded Ukraine, we at Today Explained frantically tried to find Ukrainians to tell us what they were experiencing.
--:-- Noel King: In a completely random stroke of luck, we reached a man named Kury Vasil in Western Ukraine.
--:-- Noel King: Now, he didn't speak English, so that was a mess, but his niece, Yulia Lopushyinska, did, and she agreed to translate.
--:-- Noel King: The two of them were proud, they were defiant, they were sure Ukraine would win.
--:-- Noel King: And despite everything, they were also very funny.
--:-- Noel King: So I asked them, could we all keep in touch?
--:-- Noel King: My uncle said, sure, if we are still alive.
--:-- Noel King: Oh, dear. Oh, dear.
--:-- Noel King: Mr. Vasyl. Thank you and glory to Ukraine.
--:-- Noel King: Support for Today Explained comes from Saks Fifth Avenue.
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--:-- Noel King: Not all journalism is the same. Take The Guardian.
--:-- Noel King: Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence.
--:-- Noel King: Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say.
--:-- Noel King: So we're free to report the whole picture.
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--:-- Noel King: Hello? Hello, hello, yeah.
--:-- Noel King: Good morning, USA.
--:-- Noel King: Mikola, hello.
--:-- Noel King: Oh, hello, Noelle.
--:-- Noel King: Mikola Pulisun is a journalist himself, and he's helping us get a better quality interview than last year's shaky phone line.
--:-- Noel King: And, Mikola, you are there with Yulia, yes?
--:-- Mikola Pulisun: Yes, yes, Noelle.
--:-- Mikola Pulisun: I am with Yulia here in Truskovetsk.
--:-- Mikola Pulisun: Mikola and Yulia are in Truskovets, Ukraine, and 80 kilometers away is her uncle, Kuri Vasil.
--:-- Noel King: Just like she did a year ago, Yulia has volunteered to translate for him.
--:-- Noel King: Yulia, I want to start by asking you, how are you doing?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Well, today I am fine.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Well, now I am fine.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: But the night was not very easy because this night we had the next missile attack.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: And it was really close to our house.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: So the night was rough, but now we are OK.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Now we are fine.
--:-- Noel King: What happens when a missile strikes close to your house? What do you do?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Well, we just get scared.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: We cannot do anything, you know.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Sometimes we can go to the corridor between the two walls if it's really dangerous.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: So we get safe.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: But in general, we have nowhere to go.
--:-- Noel King: Yulia, how old are your children now?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Almost 11, almost 6 and 2-year-old.
--:-- Noel King: And how are they doing?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: The younger the boys, they didn't wake up at night.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: But the girl, our daughter, she woke up at night and she got scared.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Actually, she was the first one to wake up because of this really loud sound.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: That's why she got really scared.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: And even in the morning, she did not want to go to school because she said, if I go to school and there is air allowed again, what should I do?
--:-- Noel King: I can't imagine trying to explain war to kids, frankly.
--:-- Noel King: What do you say?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: The six-year-old, we talk to him about it a little bit, some things in general.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: We try to tell him to value things that we have here and especially to be really nice to the soldiers when he sees them outside in the streets.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: And sometimes even when he sees the soldier who came back from the war, he sometimes even wants to go to the soldier and to talk to him, ask some questions.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: And I get excited because it's nice when children understand, when children can value the situation in what we are now.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: And one day, the six-year-old, he told me, you know, mom, I want to be a military man when I grow up.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: And I was so surprised that some, well, I'm not sure if I like the idea, but at least he is not scared of them.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: He wants to go to them, to talk to them, to ask some questions.
--:-- Noel King: Talking about our daughter, well she's almost 11, she knows a lot because she goes to school, she talks to her friends, the teachers...
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Well, they have to explain and sometimes we do too...
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: We well not sometimes because it's every day, uh...
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: This is our life nowadays, so this is everyday situation and...
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Every, well, air alert, we have to talk about it.
--:-- Noel King: Well, this is how it is.
--:-- Noel King: Would you translate while I ask Kuri Vasile some questions?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: I'll try.
--:-- Noel King: Kuri Vasile, how are you?
--:-- Kuri Vasile: Hello. Jak wasi sprave? Sadobra.
--:-- Noel King: Everything is fine. We are alive.
--:-- Kuri Vasile: And every day in the morning when we wake up and we see each other, we say hello and when we are safe and sound we are happy.
--:-- Noel King: How has his life changed in the last year? What has he been doing this time?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: My life and the life of every Ukrainian has changed.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Well, of course, I did my own work, my own business, and also I helped the army.
--:-- Noel King: How is he helping the army?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Every single Ukrainian is in some kind of community which is united and around gathering things for the army.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Different things. Some people do gather food, like humanitarian help.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Some people buy weapons.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Some people buy vehicles, military vehicles, drones.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: And this is what every single Ukrainian is doing right now.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: And we are united around that.
--:-- Noel King: Yulia, I hear your uncle saying that his life is different in the sense that he's really thrown himself into the war effort, into organizing.
--:-- Noel King: What's the biggest difference in your life from a year ago?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Well, before the war, sometimes I thought that maybe I would love to live abroad.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Maybe I would love my kids to see the world.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Well, it's not bad to see the world, but I wanted them to live there, to discover the world.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: But now I want to travel the world, but I want to live in Ukraine.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: I want to stay here to raise my kids, to bring them up here in my country.
--:-- Noel King: That makes a lot of sense.
--:-- Noel King: I wonder, Yulia, and I'll ask your uncle this question, and then I'll ask you, do you think that Ukraine is going to win this war?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: The question is, how do you think Ukraine will win this war?
--:-- Kuri Vasile: Ukraine won this war within the first three days, when Ukraine has united and managed to stand against.
--:-- Kuri Vasile: And now it's not the question if we win the war, the question is how many, how much more, how many people, soldiers, young people will die in this war.
--:-- Kuri Vasile: But the main idea, what my uncle is trying to tell you, is that Ukraine cannot, may not, will not lose in this war if Ukraine loses the world, the whole civilization loses.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Well, I agree with my uncle.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: I don't think that it's the war only between Russia and Ukraine.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: So I think it's because if Ukraine loses, then the next is Europe.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: You and your uncle both see this as a world war. It's Russia against the rest of the world.
--:-- Noel King: Do you think the rest of the world is paying enough attention to Ukraine?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Not enough attention.
--:-- Noel King: Yeah, yeah, I could hear that one without translation.
--:-- Noel King: Even without a sentence, she understood it.
--:-- Noel King: If to talk about this war only as the war between Russia and Ukraine, it's really dangerous, because if Ukraine loses the war, it means that Russia will go further on.
--:-- Noel King: And I am here today, well, my uncle says that I am here today, I give you this, well, almost one hour of my valuable time, and I'm asking you to talk about it, not to forget that somewhere in the world people, they die, they fight for freedom, they want to live in a free country.
--:-- Noel King: That's why I am asking you now to talk about it, not to forget about it.
--:-- Noel King: And then after that hour of Kuri and Yulia's valuable time, it was time for us all to go.
--:-- Noel King: My uncle says thank you and he is ready to join you anytime.
--:-- Noel King: Good, good.
--:-- Noel King: What if we check in six months from today? You'll both still be in Lviv, in Lviv Oblast?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Alive?
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: No, Yulia.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: You're always making dark jokes.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: Six months is a really long time for Ukrainians because every time, every evening we go to sleep when we don't know if we wake up in the morning.
--:-- Yulia Lopushyinska: My uncle says that maybe it's better to do it more often.
--:-- Noel King: How about three months? Three months is OK?
--:-- Kuri Vasile: Dobre. Ok.
--:-- Noel King: Well, he says OK.
--:-- Noel King: Coming up a year to the day after we interviewed journalist Igor Kosov, who'd come straight from sheltering in the subway, we asked where his reporting took him this past year.
--:-- Noel King: Support for today's show comes from Adio.
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--:-- Noel King: We be right back
--:-- Noel King: We see you next time
--:-- Igor Kosov: AI to learn more.
--:-- Noel King: Why don't we begin with your full name, of course, and what you do?
--:-- Igor Kosov: Yeah, it's been a minute.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I'm Igor Kosovo.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I'm a reporter at the Key of Independence.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I covered many different topics, mostly revolving around the war for the past year.
--:-- Noel King: You and I talked almost exactly a year ago.
--:-- Noel King: And at that time, I remember you had just come up above ground.
--:-- Noel King: You'd been sheltering in the subway station.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I had to stop by my apartment, but I was earlier taking shelter in a subway station because there was a threat, a credible threat of possible bombing of Kiev.
--:-- Noel King: What has life been like since then for the last year?
--:-- Igor Kosov: Well, thanks for leading off with a short and easy to answer question.
--:-- Igor Kosov: No, but seriously, at first it was a bit tense.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Everyone was trying to get out of the city to western Ukraine.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Some were going to Europe.
--:-- Igor Kosov: People are sheltering or some people are staying put.
--:-- Igor Kosov: When the Battle of Kiev started, the war opened up, as we know, with the paratrooper attacks on Hostomel Airport near Kiev.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And they were supposed to kill the leadership, secure Kiev, and then the rest of the troops were supposed to roll in and occupy the country.
--:-- Igor Kosov: A senior lieutenant who goes by Starsky was one of the defenders and says Russia attacked with 34 helicopters.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Ukraine shot some down, but not all.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And so the Ukrainian commander shelled the runway to prevent the invasion force of airborne troops from landing.
--:-- Igor Kosov: The spearhead attack immediately failed and then the sort of the grinding more started.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And during that time, Kiev's population was down to half.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Everything was kind of closed, except delis and supermarkets, rather, and pharmacies.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And life was pretty tense.
--:-- Igor Kosov: There was explosions in the distance all the time.
--:-- Igor Kosov: But people were just kind of like I imagine the Brits in World War II.
--:-- Igor Kosov: There was a lot of keeping calm and carrying on going on that I saw.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Then the Russians got out.
--:-- Igor Kosov: There was a brief rejoicing until everyone saw what they left in Bucha.
--:-- Igor Kosov: You know.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Their bodies lie face up, hands bound, mouths contorted.
--:-- Igor Kosov: The men all allegedly killed by Russian soldiers.
--:-- Igor Kosov: These bodies are now being taken away for burial.
--:-- Igor Kosov: An official involved in the process said that over the past few weeks here in Butcher, he's found around 300 bodies.
--:-- Igor Kosov: He said about 30% of them were women and children, and he believes that more are going to be found.
--:-- Igor Kosov: But after that, life in Kiev region got back to normal.
--:-- Igor Kosov: In the summer, you could almost think that there was no war going on at all, since all the action was concentrated in Donbass.
--:-- Igor Kosov: We sort of got back to the early days when Russia decided it's going to use missiles and drones to destroy the power plants and the energy infrastructure.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And we started getting missile attacks and drone attacks every week, every two weeks.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Russia has ruthlessly been targeting Ukraine's energy grid and is being accused of weaponizing winter by plunging huge parts of the country into cold and darkness.
--:-- Igor Kosov: People also kind of started off by taking shelter.
--:-- Igor Kosov: But after a while, it's just, you know, there's just it takes too much out of your day.
--:-- Igor Kosov: You got to get things done.
--:-- Igor Kosov: People just walking around, delivering food, driving.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I don't even take shelter.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I just keep working.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Yeah, I mean, I used to sit in the hallway in the first couple of months, but now I'm just sort of, you know, that's just officially I wouldn't recommend that to people.
--:-- Igor Kosov: But this is just how life is here.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Everyone's just tired of it and used to it.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And yeah, missiles kill people.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And that's just something people have gotten used to.
--:-- Noel King: You spent time reporting on volunteers in Kiev. Can you tell me about that?
--:-- Igor Kosov: I was monitoring the crossing from where the Russians were.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Ukrainian forces are holding them back.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Craniums were trickling across and Russians sometimes hit them with artillery.
--:-- Igor Kosov: This guy shows up, just swerves up on this old silver van, you know, jumps out and yells, I need a medic.
--:-- Igor Kosov: So I jogged over to one of the soldiers.
--:-- Igor Kosov: They got a medic.
--:-- Igor Kosov: There were two bodies in there.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I helped him carry one of them.
--:-- Igor Kosov: It was a friend of the guy that I met.
--:-- Igor Kosov: So we started talking and then he told me that him and his friend, Andrei, go to the areas that have not fully been liberated and they evacuate people, bring them into Kiev, which was a very safe kind of a fortress.
--:-- Igor Kosov: So I decided to go with them on one of their daily missions.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And it was one of the most incredible things I've ever experienced.
--:-- Igor Kosov: We evacuated a bunch of people and pets.
--:-- Igor Kosov: We got into some misadventures.
--:-- Igor Kosov: That day, it was probably from their point of view, it was boring.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Because we didn't get, I mean, we got mortared once.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And from their point of view, it was pretty boring.
--:-- Igor Kosov: But from my point of view, I saw everything.
--:-- Igor Kosov: It was like the humor, the pain, the destruction, the hope, the quiet grace and the nobility, the defiance.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I saw all of that.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And that was just one example.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I saw volunteers who held Kherson together during occupation.
--:-- Igor Kosov: They fed people.
--:-- Igor Kosov: They kept getting harassed by the Russians who were in charge.
--:-- Noel King: Listen, I want to ask you about what you saw in Kherson because I know you wrote a big piece about these detention centers.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And what happened in them.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Can you talk to me about what you witnessed there and what people who you spoke to told you had happened?
--:-- Igor Kosov: It was like this pretrial detention center.
--:-- Igor Kosov: It was a jail, basically.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Ukrainian police held alleged criminals there.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Then they went to court.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And this was converted into a detention center for suspected collaborators, guerrillas, spies, it's, you know, all this stuff.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I spoke to people who were detained there.
--:-- Igor Kosov: There were these various cells with doors on them instead of bars.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Pretty dingy place.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And people said that there was screaming coming from it every day.
--:-- Igor Kosov: There were children nearby.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Yeah, so the children were like, oh yeah, we heard screaming all the time.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Like the people in the other cells were like, yeah, when we heard the screaming, we couldn't really eat the food.
--:-- Igor Kosov: It was hard to eat.
--:-- Igor Kosov: The types of interrogation under torture that I heard about personally was electric shock.
--:-- Igor Kosov: That was a popular one.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Two guys I talked to, they were shocked.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And one of them has concentration problems now.
--:-- Igor Kosov: There were some beatings, just, you know, generic beatings.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Basically, dark, dingy place.
--:-- Igor Kosov: You get taken in.
--:-- Igor Kosov: You were held there until they checked out your stuff.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Many people then later got released.
--:-- Igor Kosov: They would drive them somewhere, dump them out, tell them to count to 30.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And then only then they could remove the hood from their head and try to get home, figure out where they are.
--:-- Noel King: What were these people accused of? Why were they in detention centers?
--:-- Igor Kosov: The Russians believe they had done what?
--:-- Igor Kosov: If you're trying to maintain control of a population that hates you, and many of them might be saboteurs or spying on you for the Ukrainian military, and some of them are even doing more hardcore things like transporting weapons, maybe assassinating people, maybe giving coordinates of important targets, you're going to be paranoid and you're going to be always on the hunt for guerrillas and spies that are helping the Ukrainian armed forces.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And there were a lot of such people there, and many of them were unfortunately caught and tortured.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I did a story in December, from November to December.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I talked to a couple of people who did this kind of underground resistance work.
--:-- Igor Kosov: It was very clandestine in cells.
--:-- Igor Kosov: It was horrifying.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I wouldn't be able to do that.
--:-- Igor Kosov: You need an unbreakable spinal cord, I would think, to do that kind of work.
--:-- Noel King: You know that the U.S. government recently said that Russia has committed war crimes in Ukraine.
--:-- Noel King: We have examined the evidence and there is no doubt.
--:-- Noel King: These are crimes against humanity.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Yeah, I saw bodies piled into, you know, little piles.
--:-- Igor Kosov: One of them had been set in fire.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I've seen, I've interviewed people of civilians whose loved ones were just shot for either for no reason or because they were deemed a threat or just because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Thousands and thousands of children have been forcibly taken from their families, deported to Russia, and placed with foster families there.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Other Ukrainian adults have also been forcibly sent to Russia.
--:-- Igor Kosov: That's a war crime.
--:-- Noel King: What do you expect next?
--:-- Igor Kosov: I would say the offensive is already underway.
--:-- Igor Kosov: You could see the casualty numbers coming out of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts.
--:-- Igor Kosov: But that's their thing right now.
--:-- Igor Kosov: They're really trying their best to take those two regions to the borders.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And after that, I'm not sure, but they're going to have extreme trouble with this because even though a lot of Ukrainian troops are going to die, we'll be willing to bet that even more Russian forces are going to die and lose their equipment.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And it's just going to be horrific, sort of meat grinder type of situation.
--:-- Noel King: I hear you saying this war is just going to keep going the way it has gone.
--:-- Noel King: Meat grinder is one of those awful terms that we've heard applied to this situation from the beginning.
--:-- Noel King: And the push and pull of Ukrainian and Russian forces is something we've been aware of from the beginning.
--:-- Noel King: Nothing's better, is what I hear you saying.
--:-- Noel King: You don't expect anything to get better.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Well, what do you mean better?
--:-- Igor Kosov: I mean, I think that when this war started, there was a sense that, you know, for a while in the beginning, it was like Russia did not take Kiev.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Ukraine can win.
--:-- Igor Kosov: But then as the casualties mounted, as the evidence of torture mounted, as the children, as you said, I mean, children being displaced, horrible things happening to kids, I guess you look for some sense after a year that things might be moving in a more definitive direction.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And I don't hear you saying that they are.
--:-- Igor Kosov: We can't say.
--:-- Igor Kosov: If I were to make a guess, I would say that the war will not end in 2023 because Russia really won't give it up.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And now they can't give it up because it would be absolutely humiliating to acknowledge some kind of defeat.
--:-- Igor Kosov: I don't think it's going to end in this year.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Russia's going to keep trying.
--:-- Igor Kosov: There's another wave of mobilization possibly going on, possibly about to be announced.
--:-- Igor Kosov: The fact that they didn't take Kyiv, that was sort of the death of their ambition to take over the whole country.
--:-- Igor Kosov: So now they can only take part of the country, but that's still unacceptable.
--:-- Igor Kosov: So Ukraine definitely can still win.
--:-- Igor Kosov: It's highly possible that with more support that Ukraine will be able to wreak havoc in Crimea even.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And Ukraine can win, absolutely, but the damage has been colossal.
--:-- Igor Kosov: And the question is how much more damage is there going to be in human lives and cities, destroyed infrastructure, buildings, livelihoods, human lives, economy, and how much it's going to cost to then fix that all up.
--:-- Igor Kosov: Everyone realizes that it's not going to be a quick victory.
--:-- Igor Kosov: It's going to be long, it's going to be messy, and I'm just going to have to go through it.
--:-- Noel King: That song is Oyu Luzi Chernovo Kalina, sung by Ukrainian refugees now staying in Vilnius, Lithuania.
--:-- Noel King: We had production help on today's show from Mikola Polosin.
--:-- Noel King: Today's episode was produced by Victoria Chamberlain and edited by Matthew Collette.
--:-- Noel King: It was engineered by Paul Robert Mounsey and fact-checked by Laura Buller.
--:-- Noel King: I'm Noelle King.
--:-- Noel King: It's Today Explained.
