--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Last Friday, we got the news that Roe v. Wade had been overturned by the Supreme Court. My first thought was to call a Jane.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I asked her if she had heard the news.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This Jane had fought for women's rights in the 1960s, equal pay, child care, the right to choose, the right to have an abortion. She helped women get illegal abortions in Chicago in the late 60s, early 70s, before Roe v. Wade.
--:-- Host: Last Friday, I was the one who told her Roe v. Wade had been overturned.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Women are still going to have abortions. That's not going to change anything. That's not going to change a damn thing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Rameswaram for my conversation with a Jane. It's coming up on Today Explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sorry. I don't know if you're a shoe-on or a shoe-off household. That is some kind of bike.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, that's a beautiful piece of equipment. Thank you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The first thing you need to know about this Jane is that her name isn't actually Jane. It's Eleanor.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: I'm Eleanor Oliver. I live in northwest Washington. And what more do you want to know about me?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But Eleanor is one of the Janes, this group of women that helped other women get safe, illegal abortions in Chicago in the late 1960s and early 70s before Roe v. Wade.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And last Friday, the day the Supreme Court overturned Roe almost 50 years later, I showed up at her apartment to talk.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What did you make of it when you heard it?
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: I'm still stewing over it. But, you know, women are still going to have abortions. That's not going to change anything. That's not going to change a damn thing.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Women are still going to have abortions, except they won't have the security of knowing that it will be safe. That'll be medically safe, socially safe, you know, that the person providing the abortion won't take advantage of them in other ways, which was one of the major things years ago.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I asked Eleanor to tell me about years ago.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Well, my husband was doing graduate work at the University of Chicago, and I was looking for something to do. It was 1968 and a lot of stuff was going on.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: There were anti-war demonstrations on college campuses and in cities from Los Angeles to Washington.
--:-- [News clip continues]
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: NBC News has learned the National Space Agency has decided the next Apollo flight will go to the moon. It'll not land, but a crew of three men inside their spacecraft will circle the moon about 60 miles from it and then return to the Earth.
--:-- [News clip continues]
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Black power means dignity. Means we're gonna walk side by side with you or through you. We're gonna be with dignity and integrity. We don't want any more than you have, and we're not gonna accept any less than you have. That's black power.
--:-- [News clip continues]
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: I have some very sad news for all of you, and that is that Martin Luther King was shot and was killed tonight in Memphis.
--:-- [News clip continues]
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Martin Luther King dedicated his life to love and to justice between fellow human beings. He died in the cause of that effort.
--:-- [News clip continues]
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Ladies and gentlemen, we've kept the air on because we've heard an alarming report that Robert Kennedy was shot in that ballroom at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We actually have a consciousness-raising group, a group of women, and one of the things we got really hung up on was abortion.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And we went from consciousness-raising to helping other women find safe, legal, illegal, actually, affordable abortions. Safe and affordable in contrast to the status quo.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Most of the young women of childbearing age have no idea what it was like to be pressured into having sex and then getting pregnant and then having no way of dealing with the pregnancy.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: I asked Eleanor how these women got abortions back in the day, before Roe v. Wade.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Well, you pick out the people you know that you think might have connections that are kind of a little bit savvy, that know people that maybe you wouldn't possibly know because you were just a college kid.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you just ask. You say, do you know any place where I can have an abortion, where I can get an abortion? I need an abortion.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: You would probably go to somebody's apartment or a motel and it certainly wouldn't be in the chicest part of town unless you were paying for the chicest part of town then you would go to a nice doctor's office and even then, I mean, he might have a white coat on and he might have an MD shield on his door He might have the wall hung with degrees from medical schools but you weren't going to check up to see whether he really was an MD or not
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: You wanted that abortion and he would give it to you right there in the office As Eleanor tells it, this was kind of the best-case scenario.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You could go to the mob and try and get an abortion. They might put you in touch with a shady doctor. They might put you in touch with a good doctor. The experience would vary greatly based on how much money you had in your pocket.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And if you wanted the Cadillac abortion, the price was steep. Anywhere between $500 and $1,000 in 1968.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Some of them were being sold a bill of goods. Many of them spent a lot of money on pills that were supposed to cause a spontaneous abortion, but probably didn't.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And some of them were being left to bleed to death.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this is where she and her friends thought they could make a difference.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: We were basically white, middle-class, college-educated women. And we were objecting to the Vietnam War, and we were going on marches and one thing and another.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then we sort of got together on women's issues. And there were a lot of women's issues. Equal pay for equal work, child care.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And you know there's still the same issues.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They wanted to up their involvement. Instead of just talking and protesting, let's do something, let's start providing women with illegal abortions?
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: This was Chicago. You could do anything in Chicago as long as you weren't making outrageous amounts of money and you weren't hurting anybody.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the police left you alone because they had girlfriends that got pregnant. They had wives who already had three children and didn't want any more. They had mouths to feed.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Do you start advertising it? How do you do that?
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: We actually have a brochure, and I have a copy of the brochure.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you have it? Yeah, you want to see it? Could I see it? Yeah, sure. Let's see it.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Yeah it's when you go to my bedroom there's a picture on the opposite wall of the Jane poster that we that we marched under for the women's march on Washington and just bring the whole bring the whole picture in because I've got it taped on the back thank you
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, there it is. All right. This is the brochure.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: This is how dumb we are. We would run these off. This was run off on a resistance press.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A guy had a printing press set up in the basement of an old house on the campus of the University of Chicago, and he was down there all day long running stuff.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: We must have printed millions of these things.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, let's see. What's the title there? Abortion, A Woman's Decision, A Woman's Right.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And there's the whole philosophy. A lot of prose.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah. And here... Not a lot of graphics, just the text. It's just an 8 1⁄2 by 11 inch piece of paper folded into four sides.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And here it is. Chicago Women's Liberation Union, and there's their address, the Abortion Counseling Service.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That was the official name, Abortion Counseling Service, but everyone came to know them by another.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: There were no cell phones in those days. There were just landlines.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we were meeting in my house, and I said, well, you can use our phone, but you know, I don't want to have our personal calls get mixed up with the service calls.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: So why don't we say call this number and ask for Jane.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I didn't know anybody named Jane. And I thought nobody was named Jane anymore.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: 643-3844.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Who picked up the phone?
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Usually I did.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, if my husband was home alone, he would pick it up because he was home all day working on his dissertation.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: You're saying that was your phone number?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That was my phone number. That was our phone number, yeah. That was in our apartment.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: For all you folks in Chicago, 5700 block of Kimbark Street.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So you handed out, it sounds like, tons of these things in Chicago.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Whenever we had a speak-out on a woman's issue, we brought along a whole stack of them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We had stacks of these in the dormitories.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: There were several rather liberal churches, So we had a little stack of them in the narthex of the church.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so was your phone ringing all day, or how often did you get calls?
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: We got a lot of calls. Not at first. It took a while for things to get picked up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if you pick it up and they ask for Len or Eleanor, well, we knew it was a personal call.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Or if they said, I'd like to speak with Jane, please.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'll take your name and number, and I'll have her call you, or I'll have one of her contacts call you.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And then we would write those down on 3x5 cards.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We would have a meeting. We would pass out these 3x5 cards.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And I would take people that I thought I could counsel or people that were nearby or people that I could meet with or could relate to.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One of them was a policewoman from Chicago.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: I took a lot of the middle-aged women because I was one of the older counselors, and I was married, and a lot of the counselors were graduate students and undergraduate students.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Everybody took people that they thought they could talk.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Although this person lives in my dorm, or I don't want to do this person because I know her and I don't think she wants me to know that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That kind of thing.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And they had to trust us.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We had an abortionist. We knew he was not a real doctor. He was just a nice guy.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And he... Mike. Mike was his name.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think he probably learned how to perform abortions either as a medic in the military.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: There were a lot of people, I guess, that needed abortions or who had girlfriends who needed abortions when they were in the military.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know. I've never been in the military.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: How many years does this go on for
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: We left Chicago in 1972 early 1972 and the day we drove out of Chicago was a Saturday, I believe.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Seems to me it was a Saturday. Maybe it wasn't.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: They were raided and busted.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: By whom?
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: By the police.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sorry, you mean by the police because...
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Because somebody complained and the police they didn't bother them because they we weren't hurting anybody uh-huh we weren't hurting anybody we weren't making loads of money off of people and they wanted us around because they probably might have needed us too you never know but somebody's sister-in-law was getting an abortion and they found that immoral or whatever they took it upon themselves to complain to the police, and with a complaint, the police had to act.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, the police raided the place that all this was happening, and my husband and I were driving out Stony Island Avenue to the interstate to come to Washington.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And for the longest time, I had the biggest guilt complex about that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because your friends got arrested.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Yeah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Did they get sent to jail, prison?
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: No, because what happened was they got themselves a very bright, intelligent lawyer who kept delaying and delaying and delaying until finally Roe v. Wade was passed.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then the judge threw the case out.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: How many abortions do you think you helped women get in the time you guys were active?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, they have a record of 11,000 abortions.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: 11,000?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: 1, 1,000.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Was there any organization at the time that helped as many women as you did?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We don't know. Because it was illegal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My conversation with Eleanor Oliver, also known as a Jane, continues in a minute on Today Explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today explained.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Yeah. So, Eleanor, you leave Chicago. You come to D.C. and it sounds like within a year, if not less, the Supreme Court decides Roe v. Wade.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tell me where you were that day.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: What went through your mind?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Relief.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And I thought, great, everybody can go back to life as it was before all this started.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And, of course, that didn't last very long.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: The people here who call themselves pro-choice, their definition of pro-choice is abortion at any time for any reason.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: By a vote of 7 to 2, the court agreed to uphold three of four restrictions on abortions in Pennsylvania.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We must not rest, and I pledge to you that I will not rest, until a human life amendment becomes a part of our Constitution.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The law known as Senate Bill 8 prohibits abortions after six weeks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It also allows people to sue abortion providers and people who help others get them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: These lawsuits could win plaintiffs up to $10,000.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The impact of today's ruling will be immediate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: 13 states have trigger laws that automatically end access to abortion now that Roe is overturned.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I called you this morning and I woke you up, unfortunately.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: I apologize for that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, that's because I didn't go to bed until 6 o'clock.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Right.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I gave you the news that the Supreme Court had overturned Roe v. Wade.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: What went through your head?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think it probably says something like, oh, shoot.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Well, we'll just reorganize, you know.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: At 84, I think I've done my share on this.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: I think it my daughters and my granddaughters who have to fight this
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I hope that I have inspired those two succeeding generations that they will go out and do that
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: After I got off the phone with you this morning I went down to the Supreme Court and I was taking it all in.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There were people out there who were celebrating and there were far more people out there protesting.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And the sign that struck a chord that I really kind of focused on when I saw it over and over and over again, it was young women holding up a sign that said, I will aid and abet abortions.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: See what I mean?
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: They're out there. It's going to happen. They're already probably looking for their contacts. They're already setting it up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know how I can help, but I would like to talk to those young women, if nothing else, to let them know it can be done.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: What would you tell them?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I would say, first of all, don't give up because we're out there.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: There are a lot of people who think like you. You are not alone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Find like-minded women. Get together. Talk about the issues.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And eventually groups will form.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We'll get right back to 1968. We'll get back to our consciousness-raising groups.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: We'll get back to all the issues that women are still fighting equal pay for equal work.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that was an issue back in 1968.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: They're still fighting child care in the workplace.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There were a lot of people out there, certainly not the majority, but there were people out there celebrating, blowing bubbles, jumping up and down for joy.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Until they get pregnant. Until they get unintentionally pregnant.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I had people sitting in my living room saying, you know, nice Roman Catholic young women saying, I never thought I would be doing this, but I can't have this child.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: What do you think all those people out there celebrating today don't understand about this now bygone constitutional right to have an abortion?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, they probably, either they never will, they'll always think it's a sin.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Now, I shouldn't say it's a sin. I mean, I don't think an abortion is a nice idea.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it would be nice if you didn't have to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, but it happens.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Women only hold up half the sky, let's be honest here, because they don't get pregnant by themselves.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So men should be a little more aware of what they're asking women to do when they ask for favors, when they ask for a brief moment of comfort, this becomes a lifelong experience for the woman that gets left behind.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And I don't think people think about that until they're a woman and they get left behind.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There are people out there who are getting very emotional in this moment, who are scared.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And you don't actually seem scared.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You seem rather confident to me.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Well, I know how things unfolded 50 years ago, and I'm hoping because of the contacts and the means of communication that we now all have, that things won't take 50 years to get established.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm hoping that the communications network will spring up a lot sooner than it did then, because all we had was a landline.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A landline.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And you picked up the receiver, and you put your finger in a little hole, and you dialed a little number.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Everybody has a need. An abortion is a need.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: It's just a medical procedure. Termination of an unplanned pregnancy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Call it an abortion and if you write it with a capital A, it becomes like a scarlet letter or something.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: And it certainly shouldn't be.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's much safer than a tonsillectomy.
--:-- Eleanor Oliver: Eleanor Oliver, Washington, D.C. She was once a Jane.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's a documentary about that group on HBO right now. It's called The Janes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I made today's show with lots of help from Victoria Chamberlain and a little help from Halima Shah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We were edited by Matthew Collette and engineered by Afim Shapiro.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks to Janice Gibson for putting me in touch with Eleanor.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Rameswaram for him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The rest of the team here at Today Explained includes Avishai Artsy, Hadi Mawagdi, Miles Bryan, Laura Bullard, Paul Mounsey, and my co-host Noelle King.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We had extra help this week from John Ahrens.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our supervising producer is Amina Alsadi.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Vox's VP of audio is Liz Kelly Nelson.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our audio fellow is Tori Dominguez.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She became an aunt today.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Congratulations to all involved.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder and Noam Hassenfeld.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And today, the Penguin Cafe Orchestra.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is on the radio in partnership with WNYC, and we are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The podcast is off for a few days on account of Independence Day, back on the 6th of July, which is a Wednesday, I believe.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Take care.
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