--:-- [Sound of a podcast intro fading out]
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Before we begin this episode of Today Explained, just a reminder that KiwiCo is offering you the chance to try them out for one month for free. To redeem the very kind offer, you can go to kiwico.com slash explained. KiwiCo subscriptions deliver delight throughout the year. Need I say more?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Here's how the committee will proceed for this hearing. I will make an opening statement, and then Ranking Member Nunes will have the opportunity to make a statement. Andrew Prokop, Politics Vox. On September 24th, Nancy Pelosi announced a formal impeachment inquiry of President Trump, and today it hit live TV. How did things kick off?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So this was the first public hearing in the Democrats' impeachment inquiry, and it was held before the House Intelligence Committee. That means that that committee's chairman, Adam Schiff, Democrat from California, kicked things off.
--:-- Adam Schiff: With that, I now recognize myself to give an opening statement in the impeachment inquiry into Donald J. Trump, the 45th president of the United States.
--:-- Adam Schiff: Schiff recapped what we already know about this scandal from the previous closed door testimony. He laid out a timeline of events. Schiff said, But is this what Americans should now expect from their president? If this is not impeachable conduct, what is?
--:-- Adam Schiff: Benjamin Franklin was asked what kind of a country America was to become. A republic, he answered, if you can keep it. The fundamental issue raised by the impeachment inquiry into Donald J. Trump is, can we keep it?
--:-- Host (Andrew Prokop): How does that contrast with the opening remarks from his Republican counterpart, Devin Nunes?
--:-- Devin Nunes: Nunes offered a hodgepodge of conspiracy theories, distractions and misleading remarks. But anyone familiar with the Democrats scorched earth war against President Trump would not be surprised to see all the typical signs that this is a carefully orchestrated media smear campaign.
--:-- Devin Nunes: He criticized his Democratic counterparts for trying to investigate Trump and just did a sort of grand tour of all of the scattered and varied points that the president's defenders have made here.
--:-- Devin Nunes: What we will witness today is a televised theatrical performance staged by the Democrats. Ambassador Taylor and Mr. Kent, I'd like to welcome you here. I'd like to congratulate you for passing the Democrats' Star Chamber auditions held for the last weeks in the basement of the Capitol.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So there were two people here to testify today. Who were they?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So the Democrats called as their first witnesses, William Taylor, who is the top U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, the charge d'affaires at the U.S. embassy.
--:-- William Taylor: I'm neither a career member of the Foreign Service nor of the Civil Service. I am nonpartisan and have been appointed to my positions by every president from President Reagan to President Trump.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And also George Kent, the deputy assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs.
--:-- George Kent: I have served proudly as a nonpartisan career Foreign Service officer for more than 27 years under five presidents, three Republican and two Democrat.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Why these two guys first?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I think the Democrats picked them first because, one, they're both very eloquent. Two, they are friendly witnesses, not to say that they're political, but they are happy to be there and testifying about what they saw and heard unfolding over the course of the summer involving this scandal.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Taylor specifically had a front row seat to a lot of the pressure that was being placed on the Ukrainians. He was involved in text messages with key figures in the inquiry like Ambassador Gordon Sondland.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And he also expressed his concerns in real time, famously writing to Sondland in a text message. I think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with the political campaign.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Now George Kent he had some knowledge of some of what was going down this summer but what he really brought was more of a broader interpretive narrative for what was going on in Ukraine and also a bit of a defense of Vice President Joe Biden.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Kent said that contrary to what the Republicans were alleging as far as he knew, there was nothing improper about what Vice President Biden did involving Ukraine policy back during the Obama administration.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I suppose these testimonies today presented an opportunity to take this impeachment inquiry to new places to reveal any new information. Did either of them take the opportunity to do that?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I didn't actually expect much new information to be revealed just because these two men have both testified behind closed doors extensively and we've seen their transcripts.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: However, Bill Taylor gave me a bit of a surprise in his own opening statement. He revealed new information he had been given just last week.
--:-- William Taylor: So this took place on the day after Trump's now infamous phone call with the Ukrainian president, which would make it July 26th.
--:-- William Taylor: While Ambassador Volker and I visited the front, as a member of my staff accompanied Ambassador Sondland, Ambassador Sondland met with Mr. Yerbak.
--:-- William Taylor: Following that meeting, in the presence of my staff at a restaurant, Ambassador Sondland called President Trump and told him of his meetings in Kiev.
--:-- William Taylor: The member of my staff could hear President Trump on the phone asking Ambassador Sondland about the investigations.
--:-- William Taylor: Ambassador Sondland told President Trump the Ukrainians were ready to move forward.
--:-- William Taylor: Following the call with President Trump, the member of my staff asked Ambassador Sondland what President Trump thought about Ukraine.
--:-- William Taylor: Ambassador Sondland responded that President Trump cares more about the investigations of Biden, which Giuliani was pressing for.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Was that a big deal?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: This is a really big deal. And I think it's significant because it suggests that Trump was very personally involved in what Sondland was telling the Ukrainians.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Now, we had that whole quasi transcript of Trump's call with the Ukrainian president. So we knew Trump was demanding these investigations.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But, you know, there's been a lot of testimony about what Gordon Sondland was saying and doing to the Ukrainians, that Sondland was telling them, if you want your White House meeting, you have to commit to these investigations.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: If you want to get your military aid, you have to commit to these investigations. And there was some ambiguity about just, you know, was Sondland freelancing or was he acting at Trump's behest?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And this would certainly suggest that he was in close contact with Trump and he was carrying out Trump's wishes in doing all this.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And all of this happened before anyone even started asking questions from these two witnesses.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yes, Taylor dropped that bombshell toward the very end of his lengthy opening statement.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: OK, well, after the break, the Republicans fight back.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I just got back to DC from doing our Today Explained live show in Toronto, Canada.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And it reminded me that someone had reached out to me from Ottawa, Canada, to say that her dad had become a huge Kiwiko fan, and he had gotten into their adult Kiwiko crates.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And I was like, whoa, there's adult Kiwiko crates? and she was like, yaha, and my dad just did his first one, and he hasn't even realized yet that it's a subscription.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I can't wait for him to find more because he loves it, and so did my mom.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And then she sent a photo of what looks to be like her dad, and who knows, maybe her son, but definitely there's like a 70 to 80 year age difference between these two human beings.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And they're both playing with what looks to be like a KiwiCo pinball machine, and I was touched, and I was like, can't wait to talk to dad.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And she was like, let's wait until he realizes this is a subscription because he's going to flip out when more of these start coming.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And I was like, sure.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So if you're listening today, Explained listener from Ottawa, Canada, whose dad and mom and maybe small child are really into KiwiCo would love to talk.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: For the rest of you out there, KiwiCo.com slash Explained, the first month's free. Try and get to know the possibilities because evidently they are endless.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Andrew, before any representatives ask questions, it felt very courtroom-y in there. It seemed like two lawyers were leading the inquiry. Who were those guys?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So these were staff attorneys for each side, Daniel Goldman for the Democrats and Steve Castor for the Republicans.
--:-- Daniel Goldman: Goldman was pretty disciplined in making Taylor and Kent to get their concerns on the record for everything they saw transpire.
--:-- Daniel Goldman: Have you ever seen another example of foreign aid conditioned on the personal or political interests of the president of the United States?
--:-- William Taylor: No, Mr. Goldman, I've not.
--:-- Daniel Goldman: Castor was a bit more muddled. It often wasn't really clear what he was trying to get at.
--:-- Steve Castor: And the information published by Sergei Leshenko, former Ukrainian investigative journalist, and then he was a member of the parliament, about the Manafort black ledgers in August of 2016.
--:-- Steve Castor: I mean, the very day that was published, Mr. Manafort resigned from the campaign, correct?
--:-- William Taylor: I don't know, Mr. Castor.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And after these two staffers, things sort of fell into a familiar pattern.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Who was leading the questioning from the Republicans?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So Republicans clearly believe their most qualified questioner was Jim Jordan, representative from Ohio, who attempted to really attack and aggressively try to debunk what the witnesses were saying.
--:-- Jim Jordan: One point Jordan kept trying to make is that Bill Taylor testified that he came to believe that hundreds of millions of dollars in military aid to Ukraine was being held up because they wouldn't agree to these investigations Trump wanted.
--:-- Jim Jordan: And Jordan kept saying, well, weren't you wrong about this? Because the Trump administration did release the aid without Ukraine making any public announcement about the investigations.
--:-- Jim Jordan: The whole point was you had a clear understanding that aid will not get released unless there's a commitment.
--:-- Jim Jordan: Not maybe, not I think the aid might happen and it's my hunch it's going to get released. You use clear language, clear understanding and commitment.
--:-- Jim Jordan: And those two things didn't happen. So you had to be wrong.
--:-- William Taylor: Mr. I was not wrong about what I told you, which is what I heard.
--:-- William Taylor: That's all I've said. I've told you what I heard. And that's the point.
--:-- William Taylor: What you heard did not happen. It didn't happen. Didn't that aid only get released once the whistleblower filed his complaint?
--:-- William Taylor: Yeah, it's still a little murky about why the aid was released.
--:-- William Taylor: But there were a number of things going on in the days before it was released.
--:-- William Taylor: The inspector general for the Intelligence Committee had written a letter to Capitol Hill saying there had been this whistleblower complaint that was being withheld from them.
--:-- William Taylor: Adam Schiff had announced an investigation into Rudy Giuliani's influence on Ukraine policy.
--:-- William Taylor: And also John Bolton, the national security advisor, resigned.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So it may have been released because the heat was on, because it was threatening to get out and break into the public what Trump had been trying to do to the Ukrainians.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: What other arguments were the Republicans making?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So they kept harping on the idea that Taylor and Kent didn't have any firsthand contact with President Trump over this.
--:-- Jim Jordan: You have not had any contact with the president of the United States. Is that correct?
--:-- William Taylor: That's correct, sir.
--:-- Jim Jordan: Ms. Taylor, Mr. Kent, have you had any contact with the president of the United States?
--:-- William Taylor: I have not.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So not only no conversations with the president of the United States about Ukraine, you've not had any contact with the president of the United States, correct?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: That's correct.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: OK. So you both know that this impeachment inquiry is about the president of the United States, don't you?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I mean, the man that neither one of you have had any contact with, you're the first up witnesses.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: That is also a bit of a distraction because a lot of the witnesses who did have firsthand contact with Trump on this topic, Nick Mulvaney, Mike Pompeo, they have refused to show up and testify.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Republicans don't seem particularly eager to have them show up and testify.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I would say the exception here has been Ambassador Gordon Sondland, who did have a lot of firsthand contact with Trump on this topic.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He did testify, but he is facing problems.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He's already had to go in and update his testimony once.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Now, the new information Taylor presented today from his staff member raises further questions about the honesty of Sondland's testimony.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Sondland's lawyer said that, you know, this is something that Sondland will address when he shows up for his own public testimony next week.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So this was a big moment for the Republicans.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: These testimonies have been happening behind closed doors, and that's been a recurring complaint.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And today, for the first time ever, they were happening on live TV in front of the whole world.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And the best arguments they were making were there's no quid pro quo?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Well, they threw in all sorts of points that Trump's defenders have been making.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Another one is that the president of Ukraine Zelensky said that he felt pressured.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The Democrats claim this call demonstrates extortion bribery and a host of other monstrous crimes being committed against President Zelensky.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yet President Zelensky himself insists there was nothing improper whatsoever about the conversation.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And that's true. Zelensky did say that.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Whether he was being totally forthcoming on that is not so clear.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The U.S. is a very powerful country, and Zelensky, it's true, is not going out in front of the cameras and saying, oh, my God, I feel like Donald Trump tried to shake me down this summer.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But he has his own diplomatic reasons for doing that.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You mentioned earlier that William Taylor and George Kent are these sort of effective speakers who are willing to talk.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Were Republicans able to rattle them at all with their lines of questioning?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Taylor was definitely a little befuddled when some Republicans would throw various conspiracy theories that had been circulating in right wing media at him and asked him basically, when did you know about this? Why didn't you know about this months ago?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So at one point, the Republican attorney, Steve Castor, he was talking about how Taylor had discussed an irregular channel of U.S. diplomacy toward Ukraine that involved Gordon Sondland and involved Rudy Giuliani.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Castor said, in fairness, this this irregular channel of diplomacy, it's not as outlandish as it could be.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Is that correct?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It's not as outlandish as it could be. Yeah, I agree.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He seemed to be suggesting, well, yes, it's possible things could have been more outlandish. It's not as outlandish as it could be.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But it really goes to the point of how difficult it was for Republicans to make their arguments here.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Now, there is one witness, one witness that they won't bring in front of us.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: They won't bring in front of the American people. That's the guy who started it all, the whistleblower.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So at one point in response to various Republican questions about where is the whistleblower or why isn't the whistleblower testifying, Representative Peter Welsh of Vermont said.
--:-- Peter Welsh: Thank you. I say to my colleague, I'd be glad to have the person who started it all come in and testify.
--:-- Peter Welsh: President Trump is welcome to take a seat right there.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Any word from the president? Is he willing to come testify?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He doesn't seem particularly eager to participate in the sham witch hunt hoax, whatever he's calling it these days.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: What was he up to today? Do we have any idea if he was watching the proceedings?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Trump said he was too busy to watch the House impeachment hearing.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He was meeting with the president of Turkey, President Erdogan, at the White House.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And toward the end of the day, he did hold a press conference where he was asked about this.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You're talking about the witch hunt? Is that what you mean? Is that what you're talking about?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I hear it's a joke.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You know, he repeated his longtime arguments that he did nothing wrong and the whole thing is a sham.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So the tone's been set for these televised hearings.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Republicans will defend the president and say he did nothing wrong.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Democrats are convinced something very bad happened here.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Is attempted murder a crime?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Attempted murder is a crime.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Is attempted robbery a crime?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Neither of us is a lawyer.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I think anybody in this room could answer that question.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I think that's right.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I'll go out on a limb and say, yes, it is.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Is attempted extortion and bribery a crime?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I don't know, sir.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I think Democrats are pretty clear they're not specifically tipping their hand that they are ready to impeach Trump necessarily.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But I think the support is there at this point on the Democratic side.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Once these hearings are over, Schiff and his staff are going to write a report about what they learned.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It's going to go to the House Judiciary Committee and they will probably draw up articles of impeachment.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It's very hard to read Schiff's opening remarks in any other way than saying that, you know, this is a massively important issue.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: We think Trump did something very, very wrong.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And if this is not impeachable conduct, what is?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: the chance to try them out for one month for free. They want to expose kids to concepts in science, technology, engineering, math, art, and design, but not just kids.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Sometimes the parents of those kids.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Sometimes the parents of the parents of those kids.
