--:-- Sean Rameswaram: British Prime Minister Boris Johnson kicked off the week with what looked like a diminishing degree of confidence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's also some breaking news from London tonight where Boris Johnson has narrowly survived a vote of no confidence by his conservative party.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That means, at least for now, he can get back to business as usual, which in his case means deporting migrants to Rwanda?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Those who have arrived illegally since January the 1st may now be relocated to Rwanda.
--:-- [Music starts playing softly in the background]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you're some poor Syrian fleeing a president who might want to murder you, maybe get to France, use a paddle boat to make your way to the United Kingdom, and hope to plead for asylum, you can get a letter in the mail, and it might just say you're being sent to Rwanda.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why the UK is trying to send asylum seekers to Rwanda, and whether the wealthy governments of the world are just kind of done with asylum altogether. Ahead on Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Adio.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Adio is an AI-native customer relationship management platform that Adio says is built for the next era of companies.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Adio says it also allows you to create those email sequences, those real-time reports, those powerful automations, which they claim can help you build what matters most, your company.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can go to attio.com slash todayexplained to get 15% off your first year.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's attio.com slash todayexplained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for the show comes from Charles Schwab.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs.
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--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Visit schwab.com to learn more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained, Sean Rameswaram's firm Boris Johnson survived a no-confidence vote on Monday.
--:-- [Music starts playing softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That means his government can get back to governing Britain.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What are its plans there?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Shafi Musadik, Britain correspondent at the Christian Science Monitor, is here to explain.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: It's offloading immigrants.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: We've spotted another small rib, which appears to be a migrant boat.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Who have landed in Britain from France via tiny dinghies and boats.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: This small dinghy, probably three, four metres long.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: We think there's maybe 12, 13 on board.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: A couple of small children at the front and a couple of women.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And essentially deporting them to Rwanda, which is what many legal campaigners say contravenes human rights.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And this is a massive policy that essentially appeases a lot of voters from the Conservative Party.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Boris Johnson says that this will save lives from human trafficking and people smuggling gangs.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: The most tragic of all forms of illegal migration, which we must end with this approach, is the barbaric trade in human misery conducted by the people smugglers in the Channel.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: His Home Secretary, the Interior Minister Priti Patel, says that it's going to be a game-changing solution to illegal immigration.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: This government is delivering the first comprehensive overhaul of the asylum system.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And this type of illegal migration in decades.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: These messages come from a government that was elected off the back of Brexit.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Brexit was not totally, but in some parts, an anti-immigrant campaign to break away from Europe, which succeeded ultimately.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And this thread goes back 20 to 30 years of inadequate messaging from multiple governments, stoking fears of losing sovereignty over migration policy.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Just as Brexit allowed us to take back control of legal immigration, we're also taking back control of illegal immigration.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: There's been routine talk of targeting immigration over the past 25 years.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And then Brexit happened, and Boris Johnson is following up on this promise to tackle and clamp down on migration.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: It's 30 years in the making of this.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: It's not something that's happened overnight.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And I think a question a lot of people in our listening audience will have is why Rwanda?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: The reason why is it goes back to good old colonialism.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And Britain is revisiting those links after Brexit.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: There's been a pivot away from Europe, back to Africa and Asia.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And Rwanda, in Britain's eyes, is a young population.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Definitely is demographically.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And so for Britain, this is an opportunity to build new trade relationships further down the road.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: We can't wait for you to visit Rwanda soon.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Think of it as a sort of getting to know each other phase.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: We'll climb that mountain, swim those waters and trek to experience the wonders of nature.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: This isn't necessarily about immigration for Britain.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: For Britain, this is also about trade.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And Rwanda represents that post-Brexit.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Small, landlocked and with limited natural resources, the country is relying on new technology to drive its economy forward.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Rwanda needs the money, but whose hands it goes to, we don't know.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Britain says that the money will go to Rwandans on the ground.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Rwandans on the ground don't believe that for one moment.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Rwandans are not happy about this deal.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: If Rwandan kids have not the possibility to go to school because of the poverty, how Rwandan government will assume to give education to the kids of these refugees?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Listen Rwanda has taken a huge number of refugees and immigrants from other parts of neighbouring Africa.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: For the last 28 years, we've hosted more than 130,000 refugees from neighbouring countries.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: We also have the experience of being refugees or displaced because of our recent history of conflict.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: So we know what it means to be desperate.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: So they are a welcoming country in many senses, but they're also very poor.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And they're still recovering from a very famous genocide and civil strife.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: They're on the up for sure, but Rwandans on the ground are very skeptical.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do we know how many migrants might get sent to Rwanda?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: So we know that 100 people have so far been issued letters of deportation.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: They're due to fly out on June the 14th.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: That's just the tip of the iceberg.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Afghans in particular are making boat crossings between France and the UK.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Almost as many Afghans have crossed the channel from January to March this year, about 1094.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: That's more than the whole of last year.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What happens to these Syrians or Afghans or Ethiopians once they get to Rwanda?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Do they get some of the reported 120 million pounds Boris Johnson is giving Rwanda for this program?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: They absolutely will not receive a single penny.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: This used to be a hostel, but it's already being prepared for the arrival of asylum from the UK.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: There are 50 rooms in this block, including places to eat and sleep.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: So their journey will be that they will end up in large scale hotel accommodation on the outskirts of the capital city, Kigali.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A lot of the footage that's been pumped out on the internet of these accommodation, they look quite swanky.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: They've got a pool.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: There's double beds.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: There's kitchen sink.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: But we don't know how many people will be fitted into one room.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: So there's a double bed but there could be six to seven people in one room.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're told that there will be retraining education and jobs for these people.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: But again the details are murky.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is why there's a legal challenge from human rights campaigners.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Refugee law says you can't penalize somebody for being forced to travel illegally when it's not their fault.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And we're going to challenge that in court.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This breaches the 1951 Refugee Convention, made after the end of the Second World War, after the Holocaust.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: The convention recognises that most refugees have no choice but to travel irregularly, and it prohibits governments from penalising them for doing so.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And for these people who are effectively being sent away to Rwanda for a regular immigration, what kind of status will they have there?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: They definitely won't be applying or won't have the capacity to apply for a British residency.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: The only route that they have is to apply for residency in Rwanda.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Now, if that's rejected, they get sent back home.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Home is Afghanistan, Syria, to all these regimes that could persecute a lot of these people.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Some of these people are fleeing regimes because they're being persecuted for their sexuality.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: There's a lot of LGBT asylum seekers and that's what they face if they go back home.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I've spoken to a few migrants and I spoke to one man an Afghan man and he told me that he would rather kill himself than go to Rwanda.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: For them, there's no hope in Rwanda.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: They want to come to Britain and listen Britain has extensive family support for a lot of these people.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: If you're a lonely person, you're on the run from a repressive regime, you're destitute, you will go to your family networks.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And this is what some of these people are doing.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why Rwanda is their question.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And they're not deterred.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: The migrants that I've spoken to say they're not deterred by this plan.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: If anything, it will just mean that the smugglers are paid much more money.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So there are already lawsuits flying around.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And it sounds like this is totally antithetical to the asylum policies that were established after the Second World War, after the Holocaust.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the Johnson government wants to pursue this anyway?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: They do, but they have a track record for lawbreaking in the UK right now.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: At the core of many people's frustration, the so-called Partygate scandal, in which he and staff held illegal drinking gatherings during the country's COVID lockdowns.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Johnson was fined by police.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But let's not forget, this is political and there's a general election coming up in about 18 months time.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: So they're testing the water here.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We expect this will be challenged in the courts.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And that's a gamble that could backfire because of everything that's happening in Ukraine.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sentiment against migrants has suddenly become more positive because of the war in Ukraine.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Britons have opened arms to Ukrainians.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: In just a week, we've seen seven and a half thousand people say that they want to open their homes to welcome refugees.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So this is in one sense a making of anti-immigrant policy because of Brexit.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: But it's come at a time that's where the trend is going the other way.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: The wind is blowing the other way.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And Brits for the first time in a long time, at least look like the opening the arms up to foreigners.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, whether that extends to non-European refugees, whether that warmth extends to them, the question remains.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Are you saying that Ukrainians aren't going to get sent to Rwanda?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: I'm highly sceptical.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: Actually in the migrant camps in Calais which is on the coast of northern France facing England there were a few Ukrainians there, not a lot, but Ukrainians there were targeted and taken away and put ahead of the pack and told to come to Britain.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: And the migrants who were left in the Calais jungle camp said, why not us?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: We're being left behind.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's a clear indication of the good immigrant.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Shafi Musadik: If countries like the UK are just going to push immigrants to Rwanda or threaten to push immigrants to Rwanda for political points, why have asylum policies in place at all?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're going to ask in a minute on Today Explained.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Chime.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Nobody likes fees and complicated banking, says Chime.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Chime gets that, says Chime.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chime is a financial technology company that says they understand that every dollar counts.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when you set up direct deposit through Chime, they say you get access to fee-free features, such as free overdraft coverage, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit, so much more.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chime says with qualifying direct deposits, you can be eligible for free overdraft, up to $200 on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Plus, they say you don't need to worry about monthly fees or maintenance fees.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chime feels like progress.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Banking services and debit card provided by the Bank or Bank N.A. or Stride Bank N.A. Members FDIC.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for this show comes from Macy's.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's almost fall, and that means it's time to cycle your wardrobe to the cold setting.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because while everyone loves a breezy summer outfit, let's be real, layering is even more fun.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Find the perfect layering pieces for you by exploring the Macy's Fall Fashion Style Guide.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're back.
--:-- [Music starts playing softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained, Boris Johnson wants to send migrants to Rwanda.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Seems like a total and utter violation of asylum agreement, so we figured we'd ask someone who knows their asylum to help us understand it.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Eleanor Painter.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: I'm a postdoctoral associate of migrations with Cornell University's Mario Inaudi Center for International Studies, and I host the podcast Migrations, A World on the Move.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Eleanor, the Johnson administration is exporting migrants who want asylum in the United Kingdom to Rwanda.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: It sounds pretty exceptional.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: Is this kind of thing exceptional?
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: It's not exceptional.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: This is not a unique policy, although we can certainly say that sending asylum seekers by plane thousands of miles away is an especially extreme version of something that we have been seeing happen throughout the global north for some time now.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: Italian warship, this is Kifah.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: This is Kifah.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: Since 2017, Italy has had a deal with Libya, through which it funds and trains the Libyan Coast Guard to apprehend migrants who are trying to cross the Mediterranean Sea to reach Europe and returns them to Libya, where we know they're housed in detention centers.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: If an Italian boat brings migrants on board, then it has to take them to Italy.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: And that's exactly what they're trying to avoid, by calling the Libyans to take them away.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: Israel actually had an older policy from 2013 where it was sending Sudanese and Eritrean nationals to Uganda and Rwanda.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: This man who's from Darfur told us that he was sent from Israel to Uganda with seven others and was left to fend for himself.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: I was not given any document nor get a passport nor get assistance from them nothing.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: Australia has a really infamous offshore detention policy where it uses islands to detain people.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: Unrest is common here.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: This is video supplied to Dateline.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: This protest occurred just weeks earlier.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: But detention center staff aside, and with media banned, no one would have known about it.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: In the US, we have the migrant protection protocols.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: So this policy that's known colloquially as the remain in Mexico policy.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: Since 2018, Central American migrants have been forced to remain on the Mexican side of the border while they wait for their cases to be processed.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: Eric, a 41-year-old Cuban, was deported after an attempt to cross the border last year and is waiting for the resolution to his asylum application.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: Here you can make $30 in three days.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: If you want to live with dignity, it is possible here in Mexico.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: There's broad recognition that these policies fail in multiple ways.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: So in general, as border policies become stricter and stricter, people essentially get funneled along more dangerous routes.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: That's why we see people crossing the Mediterranean Sea, crossing the Sonoran Desert.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: And governments argue essentially that these dangerous journeys are the problem and that policies like the UK Rwanda agreement will keep people safe by deterring them from attempting to cross and by keeping people out of the sea.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: But that's really a distraction from the reasons people end up on these routes in the first place, and it's also an oversimplification.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: The migrants themselves are often relying on smugglers to help them on their perilous journeys, and just like the policies have funneled people along more dangerous routes, further restrictions are also likely to make traffickers and smugglers have to adopt different strategies.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: So to say that the problem is the paths people are taking really ignores that they being forced along these paths because of in large part policies in the global north.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're talking about highly controversial inhumane treatment of migrants.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: Is the U looking at Mexico and the United States or Australia or Italy and going yeah we have some of that.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: We'd like to replicate that situation.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: The U.K. is definitely taking cues from other countries.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: In a 70 to 24 vote, politicians agreed to move asylum seekers who arrive on Danish soil to a reception centre in a third country outside Europe.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: Denmark had a similar deal with Rwanda in the works prior to the UK deal.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: It's now likely to implement that.
--:-- [Music continues to play softly]
--:-- Eleanor Painter: And we know that UK Home Secretary Priti Patel has consulted with Australian leaders who have implemented their offshore detention policy.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: Australia has seen migration from the Middle East and South Asia in particular, and people, of course, crossing by boat.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: And they've been working for years to try to prevent those crossings.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: In hot and humid conditions, 400 single-male asylum seekers, more than half from Sri Lanka, have been living 16 men to a tent.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: But what they've done to do that, sort of in the name of rescue rescue and of security also, is house people out of Australia in these detention centers on islands.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: So they're housing them in Nauru and in Manus in Papua New Guinea.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: And these are detention centers that have held people for sometimes years.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: There's a famous case of Beruz Bouchani, who's written and filmed about his experiences on Manus and the really inhumane conditions in which people are held there.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: So through stories like his, we have real evidence of the psychological consequences that these policies bear out on people who are detained.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: Again, people who are fleeing conflict, fleeing extreme economic precarity.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: Increasingly, we're talking about people who are fleeing the consequences of climate change as well, and who are seeking safety and protection and instead being held in extended periods of detention.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What do you call this kind of policy?
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: Does it have a name?
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: Is there, I mean, is there a term for offshoring, offloading, passing on your migrants to another country for some money?
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: There's no official single term, in part because these aren't internationally sanctioned policies, but you hear offshoring a lot.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: And that's what we're seeing in the Australian case.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: In the UK, the Rwanda example is certainly offshoring, but we might be more accurate to call it outsourcing.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: So they're really handing over asylum processing to Rwandan authorities.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: And a sort of larger umbrella term that you hear in these cases is border externalization.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: Border externalization.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Meaning that countries implement policies that are effectively pushing their own borders out so that migrants can never even reach the border in order to enter the country.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: I mean, we've talked about the history of asylum on this show before, at least in its modern political context.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: It's coming out of World War II.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: Are these types of programs that we're seeing in the United States and Australia and Italy and now the U.K., are they suggesting that the so-called global north is done with asylum?
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: Is this the new normal?
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: Is this the new normal?
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: Yes, I think we're moving in this direction.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: I think it's always important to hold in mind that more than 80% of refugees and asylum seekers live in Global South countries.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: So what we think about as this asylum crisis for the global north, you know, when we talk about it in those terms, it really doesn't offer the fullest picture of migration and asylum.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: But we are talking about countries with a lot of power who are calling into question international agreements, asylum protocols, and the place of people's rights as they cross borders.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Not only is asylum being trampled on by various countries, but it's also just basically something that can be used as some political ploy in an election.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: This problem has bedeviled our country for too long, and this is the government that refuses to duck the difficult decisions.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is anyone playing by the rules anymore, or should they just sort of put an end to asylum formally?
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: I mean, why does this thing even exist if no one cares about it anymore?
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: The ways that countries apply the Refugee Convention have always reflected political alliances and ideologies.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: So even though that convention has been revisited and protections have been expanded in multiple ways, it still remains really tied, for example, to Western views on what merits protection.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: And I think that claims about closing borders and keeping some people from some places out really resonate with political bases right now.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: I hesitate to call it the end of asylum, although I think we are seeing movement towards some kind of conversation about what kind of accountability can we expect.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: We're definitely seeing challenges to the Refugee Convention and to international agreements about asylum and about rescue and we're seeing those violations go relatively unchallenged.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So yes, the asylum system is being tested and people are being held in precarity and losing their lives in the process.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: This is really a crucial moment for talking about what justice could look like in border spaces and for people who have to move to seek safety and protection.
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--:-- Eleanor Painter: And this should really be a global conversation.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Eleanor Painter is a postdoctoral associate at Cornell University.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She also hosts a podcast.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's called Migrations, A World on the Move.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Earlier in the show, you heard from Shafi Musadik, Britain correspondent at the Christian Science Monitor.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our show today was made by Haleema Shah.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She had help from Matthew Collette, Paul Mounsey, Laura Bullard, Tori Dominguez, and me.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Rameswaram.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.