--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Brazil just had its very own January 6th. Except it happened on January 8th, and instead of interrupting their country's democratic process in support of a right-wing ex-president, the rioters and insurrectionists stormed an empty capital city and vandalized a bunch of empty capital buildings. Still, worth asking why. Worth asking how Brazil handled it. Did they just let everyone walk back to their hotels and cars like we did in our country, or did they, you know, arrest them? Are they going to spend the next several years trying to determine who's at fault? Are they going to wrap this up quickly? Are they going to agree on what exactly happened during their insurrection? Or will they be divided? Did the Brazilian insurrectionists also poop everywhere? And what role did ex-president Jair Bolsonaro play? Isn't he in Florida?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Answers to those questions and more coming up on Today Explained. Support for Today Explained comes from Adio. Adio is an AI-native customer relationship management platform that Adio says is built for the next era of companies. A powerful data structure adapts to your business model, syncs in all your contacts in minutes, and enriches your business with actionable data. Adio says it also allows you to create those email sequences, those real-time reports, those powerful automations, which they claim can help you build what matters most, your company. You can go to adio.com slash todayexplained to get 15% off your first year. That's A-T-T-I-O dot com slash todayexplained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for this show comes from Macy's. Layering is an art form. All it takes is a bit of intention, style, and, of course, the perfect cold-weather staples. So find the perfect look for you with the help of Macy's Fall Fashion Guide, your one-stop shop for fall's latest trends and must-haves, curated by their experts. From leather to denim to cozy knits, find everything you need to piece together your new fall look. Explore the Macy's Fall Guide for yourself and shop in-store or online at Macy's.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained, Sean Ramos from, when we saw Brazil taken after us in all the worst ways, we reached out to the Brazilian reporter's Gustavo Ribeiro, based in Sao Paulo, to find out what the heck was going on down there.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: Well, over the weekend, we saw dozens of buses carrying supporters of former President Jair Bolsonaro heading to Brasilia. They gathered and marched for six and a half kilometers, four miles, until the Three Powers Square, which is where all three branches of government are headquartered in Brasília, the federal capital. They met very little resistance from police forces, and quickly, what was an anti-democratic protest evolved into full-scale riots. They stormed the Congress building, the Supreme Court and the presidential palace. They destroyed millions of dollars in public property. And things were not worse because the Brazilian Congress and the Supreme Court are not in session during the month of January, and President Lula was not in Brasilia.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: But we have seen arguably the worst assault against democratic institutions in Brazil since the country became a democracy again in the mid 80s. For people who haven't been paying attention to Brazilian politics until this moment, until people saw that Brazil did it January 6th, tell us what got us to this moment. You guys just had a big election. What were the stakes of that election?
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: Well, some of these events, while worrisome, disappointing, they are not surprising. We have had a far-right president between 2019 and the end of last year. He pitted his supporters against democratic institutions for years. And then after he lost re-election on October the 30th, Bolsonaro supporters started staging act of violence after act of violence. Each one seemed to announce a worst thing that would come. So right after Bolsonaro lost the election, and by the way, he still has not conceded the results, we saw his supporters blocking federal roadways that are key to Brazilian supply chains. Bolsonaro was removed from his throne and we are going to put him back in power with the strength we, the lorry drivers, have.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: Then they started camping outside of army garrisons across Brazil, asking for the armed forces to stage a coup d'etat. Supporters of Brazil's President Jair Bolsonaro marching towards military headquarters in Rio de Janeiro. They don't accept Bolsonaro's defeat and want the armed forces to intervene. When Lula's victory was to be certified by electoral courts on December the 12th, they staged numerous acts of violence in Brasilia and even tried to storm the headquarters of the federal police in the capital. And on Christmas Eve, the police uncovered a bomb plot near the Brasilia airport. Police said they'd foiled a bomb plot, arresting a pro-Bolsonaro election denier, who said he was inspired to build up an arsenal by the outgoing president's call to arms.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: In all of this, the perpetrators said that they wanted to create chaos in order to prevent Lula from taking office by creating the conditions for a stage of siege that would lift constitutional rights temporarily and allow Bolsonaro to remain in power. Bolsonaro's supporters are wreaking havoc in Brazil in the wake of the election. What is Bolsonaro himself doing?
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: I would say Bolsonaro is giving himself the argument of plausible deniability. Bolsonaro has practically disappeared from social media after he lost the election. He barely spoke publicly but he has also done nothing to calm spirits of his supporters or condemned acts of violence in a farewell address that he broadcast on social media on December the 30th He said that violent acts are regrettable, but he said that always in that sort of underdog image he wants to give himself, that he's persecuted by the so-called deep state.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: During the campaign, Bolsonaro said that the only way he would not win with at least 60% of the vote was if there was foul play. Which sets the stage for the events of this past weekend. So this far-right movement is deeply rooted on social media. We have many wealthy businessmen supporting it with money. And we saw an effort to bring thousands of people to Brasilia, the federal capital, in the middle of Brazil, in order to stage a massive rally. And it doesn't take a rocket science to foresee what was about to happen because they were openly saying, we will grab power. This is the Brazilian spring. Bolsonaro will win unless it's stolen by, guess what, the machines.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: And it's a term that was coined by Steve Bannon, who is close to the Bolsonaro clan. The machines. So these people gathered outside of the army headquarters in Brasilia. Then they walked four miles until the congressional building, where there was very little resistance. And it's important for people to know, people who don't know Brasilia. Brasilia is a capital that, by design, is made to avoid these kind of scenes from happening. Brasilia was deliberately placed far inland to open up the nation's vast interior. And ribbons of asphalt are planned to all parts of the country.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: Also, the three-power square where we have Congress, the presidential palace, and the Supreme Court, it's a vast open space. The Planalto Palace, Palace of the Highlands, and the Plaza of the Three Powers, executive, judicial, and legislative, form a triangle of architectural genius. It's a place where if the police wants, it can barricade the access points to government buildings. So what you're saying is that the police and the military could see this riot coming from literally hundreds, if not thousands of miles away.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And also members of the government and allies of the current center-left government have directly accused the local authorities of condoning by omission what happened because you have throngs of people marching to the Congress building and there were like just a couple of dozen policemen barricading their access there. there. Some tried to use pepper spray, but others were just taking selfies and filming the action while people were trashing the congressional building.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: So I think it's safe to say at this point that there was malicious negligence as well. Another interesting detail is that until Sunday, the top security official in Brasilia was the man who served as Justice Minister under Jair Bolsonaro. So what happens when they finally get to Brasilia? What happens once they arrive to the capital?
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: Well, they were gathering outside of the army headquarters where thousands of Bolsonaro protesters have camped for two months asking for a military coup. And by two o'clock on Sunday, they started marching towards Congress building. Now, this is a one hour, one hour and a half walk. So it's not as if it was impossible to see this coming. It was not as if it was impossible for the police to mobilize its troops and barricade. They met very little resistance once they reached the police barricades.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: A few policemen tried to use pepper spray, but they were just overwhelmed by the crowds. They stormed the ramp that leads to the congressional lobby, while other groups went to the Supreme Court building, which is just meters away from there. And a third group stormed at the presidential palace. Now, these are palaces that are covered in glass. So they shattered the glass, they invaded the lobby, the legislative chambers, they trashed the place.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: There were reports of blood, urine, and feces in many areas of these official buildings. and they stole documents. One thing that was interesting is that government members said that these rioters knew what they were doing and what they were looking for because they stormed one room in the presidential palace where the police stores guns and ammunition, including lethal weapons, and they stole these lethal weapons.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: We saw some trying to set fire to these buildings. The incredible scenes unfolding in Brazil's Capitol Sunday. Thousands of protesters confronting police wielding makeshift weapons. All of it eerily similar to one of the ugliest chapters in American history, the January 6th attacks. The police only responded after the congressional building was trashed. The Supreme Court was destroyed in many places. and presidential palace had people defecating all over the place. They used stunts guns.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: And then in a matter of a few hours, things stopped escalating. And then we saw a lot of reactions from the three branches of government. President Lula placed the security apparatus in the capital, Brasilia under federal intervention meaning that the local police forces were no longer under the jurisdiction of the governor but responding to the federal government directly Also the Supreme Court suspended the governor of Brasilia from office for 90 days because of his negligence to these events And the solicitor general asked for the arrest of Brasilia's top security officer until Sunday. And that is a matter that the Supreme Court still has to rule on.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: But we have seen this coordinated effort of federal institutions trying to respond to this assault on democracy. I mean, it's stunning. If you put the footage, you know, next to each other, it looks at times exactly the same, but in a different country with different flags waving. The one key difference here, and I think you alluded to this, is that in the United States on January 6th, 2021, you had these insurrectionists trying to disrupt the democratic process. on January 8th, 2023, you have these insurrectionists, I think, breaking into a bunch of empty buildings.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: Yes, because Congress in Brazil, as the Supreme Court, are not in session during the month of January. They will only be back to work in February. And also, President Lula was not in Brasilia on Sunday, he was visiting a city in the countryside of São Paulo, so thousands of miles away. It's interesting because for two months, these people said that they would prevent Lula from taking office. And then they staged this massive assault against democratic symbols a week after he is in office, a week after what they feared the most was fé a And it seems like a gratuitous act of vandalism, but it's also a way of them showing that they will try to destabilize this administration at every moment they can.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: They will try to keep this government at bay. If you look at far-right groups on Telegram, on WhatsApp, they are already talking about trying to boycott the financial system, trying to find ways to wreck the economy and make this government a total disaster. More with Gustavo momentarily on Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for today's show comes from Adio. What is Adio? Adio is an AI-native customer relationship management system built specifically for the next era of companies. They say it's extremely powerful, adapts to your unique data structures and scales with any business model. According to Adio, Adio takes less than a minute to set up, and within seconds you will have your email and calendars synced. You'll see all your relationships in a fully-fledged platform, they say, all enriched with that actionable data.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they say you can build AI-powered automations and use its research agent to tackle some of your most complex processes to seize so that you can focus on what matters, building your company. You can join industry leaders such as Flatfile, Replicate, Modal, and so much more. You can go to adio.com slash todayexplained to get 15% off your first year. That's A-T-T-I-O dot com slash todayexplained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We all have moments where we could have done better, like cutting your own hair. Oh, yikes. Or forgetting sunscreen, so now you look like a tomato. Ouch. Could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it. Learn more at Schwab.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: After 47 years living here, I decided to move to Orlando to be closer to Disney World. Today Explained, we're back. Gustavo, we're talking about these insurrectionists who are really mad that Jair Bolsonaro isn't leading Brazil in this moment. Where is Jair Bolsonaro in this moment? I hear Florida.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: Yes. Jair Bolsonaro, who is currently in the United States, was just admitted to a hospital in Orlando for abdominal pain. Bolsonaro was stabbed in 2018 and frequently suffers pain in that area as a result. Bolsonaro left office on December the 30th, two days before he was supposed to hand the presidential sash to Lula so he would avoid the inauguration. There is legislation that was passed authorizing a security detail for him until January 31st. So, I mean, the plan at least at this moment is for him to stay at least until the end of the month in the Orlando area, where he has been meeting with supporters outside of a supporter's home, former UFC fighter who is hosting him there.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: Weird. Why is he in Florida? Is it just like, is the love for Trump that deep? I mean, part, yes, but also Florida is where a lot of the Brazilian elite likes to move or to have homes or to go for tourism. So it is this sort of kitsch dream of Brazilian rich folks. So there are a lot of supporters of Bolsonaro there. When we look at the electoral data from consulates, we see that Florida massively voted for Bolsonaro. If Brazil had an electoral college, that swing state would be with the far right former president.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: What does he have to say about all of this insurrection business in his home country? So it was very weird how Bolsonaro acted following the events, because while things were happening in Brazil and we were seeing this crazy, unprecedented event, he was mom. I mean, for a guy as social media savvy as he, it was weird. And then early in the evening he just posted anodyne things about accomplishments his administration had done Now I don know if it were scheduled posts but it was in total oblivion with what was happening
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: And then 9 p.m. already or something like that, he did this very short tweet saying that peaceful protests are encouraged. But when they go beyond what the law allows, then they become regrettable. But also comparing what happened on Sunday with protests that have taken place in Brasilia in 2013 and 2017. Ultimately, in the United States, you know, January 6th was investigated. There was a committee. There was, you know, televised hearings. They arrested a ton of people who were at the insurrection. And ultimately, it feels kind of like a huge failure.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: Do you think this was this movement in Brazil's last gasp? I would be shocked if this is the last we see of the far right, because I think their goal is to destabilize the country as much as they can and to make Lula's presidency impossible to be successful. It will depend on how harshly and how swiftly the courts go after these people. We have seen that between Sunday and Monday, over 1,200 people have already been arrested for being there. And that both the Justice Ministry and the Supreme Court have promised to go not only after the people who were breaking stuff in Brasilia, but also the people who financed them for years and the people who incited them.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: So that means going after billionaires who have poured money for months and years into financing this far-right movement. And also the president and his family who, I mean, the buck stops with them because they are the ones who are pushing people to that point of no return. Mr De Silva has today accused him of encouraging these people who have stormed these buildings. He's also warned that anyone who was involved will be held to account. Like true vandals destroying what they found in front of them, we think there was a lack of security. And I wanted to tell you that all those people who did this will be found and punished.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: In the United States, you know, depending on who you ask, January 6th was one of the darkest days in our history, or it was a wild party down in D.C. Do you think Brazilians are going to suffer from the same circumstances where people will struggle to agree on what exactly happened on January 8th, 2023? So there was one opinion poster who published a monitoring of social media posts on Sunday's riots. And over 90% of Brazilians were condemning what happened and disapproving of these violent acts. And then we saw even members of the right condemning what happened and distancing themselves.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: Now, like I said, Bolsonaro has also distanced himself, and that doesn't mean anything, because they continue in the backstage inciting people to charge against democracy. Given this backlash, it's interesting to notice that a lot of far-right agitators on social media are saying that there were infiltrated left-wing people, and those were the ones who were responsible for trashing the Congress and the Supreme Court, not the far-right people who were there. So they're trying to pin the blame on the left on their own deeds. Sounds familiar.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: I think that Brazilian institutions have been capable of withstanding constant attacks. Some acted more responsibly than others. But I think that now that members of Congress who have been very lenient and borderline accomplice to Bolsonaro, now that they have felt that they are in the firing line as well, maybe that could force them into making a stand for democracy. It's not that democracy is not at risk in Brazil, but I don't think that they will be able to achieve what they hope to achieve.
--:-- Gustavo Ribeiro: So I think that even though they will limp out of this crisis, I think the Brazilian democratic experiment is far from done. In that sense, I'm hopeful, even though I believe that we're going to see a very convoluted, a very tense political atmosphere in Brazil. So I think crisis mode will be on, but I don't think that democracy mode will be off.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Gustavo Ribeiro. He's the founder of The Brazilian Report. Find them at brazilian.report.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The program today was produced by Miles Bryan. We were edited by Matthew Collette, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Paul Robert Mounsey, and hosted by Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The rest of the team includes Siona Petros, Amanda Llewellyn, Halima Shah, Avishai Artsy, Hadi Mawagdi, Victoria Chamberlain, and my co-host Noelle King. Our supervising producer is Amina Alsadi. Afim Shapiro is our director of sound, and we got extra help this week from Jolie Myers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder and Noam Hassenfeld. Today Explained is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, and we're on the radio in partnership with WNYC.
