--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, I was trying to print something at the Vox offices here in D.C. and the printer wasn't working. I was like, what's going on? I don't have time for this. Turns out it wasn't even on and like the power button is in a pretty obscure place. And I don't know, the printer's not a Brother, but Brother's power buttons are in the right place.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Learn more at changethewayyouinc.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, Dan, the first time I heard about CBD it was with a friend we were going to a movie and he was like, "Hey, you want to smoke some CBD" and I was like, "What's CBD?" and he was like, "It's like marijuana without the THC." My mom sent it to me when was the first time you heard about CBD?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: I think the first time I started really wondering about it was when it started popping up in cafes and coffee shops and restaurants all around my neighborhood in New York.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: How is it being sold in cafes and coffee shops around your neighborhood in New York?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's like no limit to it. I find it in smoke shops, in convenience stores, in beauty shops. But you can also buy stuff like CBD dog treats. You can buy CBD massages, CBD chocolate chip cookies. You can find ice cream. CBD cocktails are becoming a really popular thing. There were reports that Coca-Cola is working on a CBD-infused beverage of some sort.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: So, the one that I tried for the story is a CBD latte, which cost about $9.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what was the selling point of a $9 latte?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Well, they can't really talk about it, which is really interesting. When I talk to people who sell CBD, they are not really allowed by FDA rules to talk about what it can do because it hasn't been inspected to see if it actually does that stuff. So they just kind of talk about wellness or like some kind of holistic improvement that you might feel.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why don't we talk about it, you and me, right now?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Sure. First, let's clarify what CBD is. It gets confused with marijuana, but it's not. So CBD is short for cannabidiol. It's a cannabinoid, which is a chemical compound in the cannabis plant. There's over 100. We're not exactly sure how many.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The two most important ones, economically at least, are THC, which is the psychoactive ingredient in marijuana, and CBD, which is found in marijuana, but also in industrial hemp, which has no THC in it.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Dan Nosiewicz wrote about CBD for the goods at Vox. And I asked him to help me figure out how it got to be everywhere, from dog treats to lattes to massages. And it turns out it's super complicated.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What I've always been told about CBD is that it gives you this kind of body high without any of that complicated psychoactive head stuff, kind of like the endorphin rush you get after a long run or a good workout.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: And even that turns out only half right. It's not psychoactive at all. So there would be no high of any sort, no body high, nothing. You wouldn't feel anything.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So to be clear here, CBD is not meant to get you high. That's correct, yeah.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: At all. Yeah. But it is meant to provide you some sort of relief. Theoretically, the uses of it are, at least the ones that are known, are anti-anxiety and anti-inflammatory. Those are the most important ones.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But it also does seem to have some really beneficial effects for certain medical conditions. It was actually approved by the FDA for a drug called Epidiolex, which is a epilepsy treatment. And there's a lot of research going on for CBD to treat schizophrenia.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: And people who are doing this kind of work are really excited about it because it doesn't seem to have very many side effects. And most of the treatments that you would get for something like schizophrenia have really, really nasty side effects.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, Dan, what's the science behind CBD? Like, how much do we know about it? How much research has been done on it?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Research is really, really limited, mostly because its use of any cannabis plant was illegal and really, really hard to work with for, you know, a long period of time. So the research is way behind the kind of popularity of it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's also the fact that we don't really know what else it does. Like the way that it operates in the brain is like not well understood. We don't know which kind of neural pathways it's triggering.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Although the stuff that you're buying, like there's very, very, very little chance that it's doing anything.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know how much to reveal here, but I definitely got high when I smoked on my buddy's mom's vape pen that had CBD in it.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Well, the thing about that is that that's totally possible.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the FDA has been really terrible about testing stuff, but they did test like eight products or something like that in 2016 and found that a bunch of them had really high levels of THC in them, meaning that you would have gotten high if you would use those products.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Some of them they found had zero CBD content in them. And these are things that are supposed to be 100% CBD, nothing else. So they might have just contained hemp seed oil like you use in a salad dressing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there basically no oversight. Pretty much nobody is checking this stuff. And the sources of it, the purity of it, what actually in there, nobody really knows because it's so poorly regulated.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: So there's like a distinct possibility that whatever you used had THC in it. The other possibility is the placebo effect, which is incredibly strong.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm like a little hesitant to talk about the placebo effect because people tend to think like I'm being a dickhead and just being like, oh, whatever you think you're taking, like, well, here are the facts, like, actually, man.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: But the placebo effect from scientific studies is incredibly strong. It can do some pretty amazing things, especially it's notable for stuff in the mind, reducing anxiety, that kind of thing, reducing depression.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, wait, so if there's been like limited studies, how do we know CBD helps with anxiety or depression? Have people studied that?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: The way that people test for whether anti-anxiety drugs work, at least one of the ways, is to do a public speaking test, which is pretty funny. They give people different amounts or different drugs, as well as a placebo, and then they make them give a speech in front of people and measure physiological things like heart rate and perspiration, stuff like that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that gives people an idea of how much anxiety you have. If you vote for me, all of your wildest dreams will come true. Thank you.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: So in one study they gave people different amounts of CBD and a placebo and a Klonopin. So in CBD they gave them 100 milligrams, 300 milligrams, and 900 milligrams. The 100 and 900 milligrams had no effect at all. The 300 milligram though did have a statistically significant, not a huge but statistically significant anti-anxiety effect.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Which kind of indicates that there's a bell curve here, that you kind of have to get like a Goldilocks zone of the right dosage, too much or too little, and it's not going to work or it's going to have side effects that you don't want or whatever.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Also kind of funny is that the Klonopin, like worked really well, which you might expect.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's kind of crazy to think that so much of CBD, which is becoming so popular, is like TBD. It's a really interesting and promising field of study. And a lot of people are investing a lot of money in studying it.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: I think that the possibilities for treating schizophrenia and epilepsy are pretty amazing. The researchers that I talk to are like super psyched about it. They think it's really, really interesting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think recreationally, if you're talking about like a CBD gummy or a CBD vape or CBD oil in your coffee, like I said, it's very, very unlikely that that is having any effect.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Cookies, gummy bears, candies, honey sticks. Parents are getting them for their kids before school so the kids aren't having anxiety at school.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What does it mean for the country right now that there's very little research into this product that's being sold at bakeries, at coffee shops, at massage parlors? That's just everywhere.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: So I think it's a huge problem, but not necessarily an avoidable problem. The issue with the research that needs to be done is really expensive and takes a long time. Like studies are going to take 10, 15, 40 years until we really have an idea of how this stuff works and what it does.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But it can't be illegal while you're doing that testing because you can't do the testing. So what you end up with is what we're in now, which is this chaos period where it's legal and available and researchers are like racing to figure out what this does before like anything bad happens, but we just don't know anything.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Like, we don't know how much people should be taking or... Or how people should be taking it, because bioavailability, that I think is sort of an issue.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Bioavailability?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Bioavailability is basically how much of a substance your body absorbs and uses. So the bioavailability of CBD is really tricky because it's fat soluble.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the way the body breaks down fat is that if you ingest a fat that's in oil or in food or some other way like that, your body is going to just store most of that in your fat cells. And it's going to be completely inert there.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Your body's not going to make use of any of the CBD. Like you might as well have just drank olive oil.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So how much of that actually makes it like into your bloodstream and then to your brain is really really important because it's going to vary a lot like if you drink something versus if you inhale a vapor versus if you inhale smoke versus uh subdural which is under the tongue which a lot of people are very into versus like a tincture that you rub on your skin.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Like dosage should vary wildly for all that stuff because it's going to have totally different bioavailabilities. So you should not be vaping the same amount that you're drinking. But exactly how much is totally not known, which is partly why the dosage is such a problem.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And until we get these sort of standards, we're just a nation of guinea pigs?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Yeah, pretty much.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The science of CBD remains something of a confusing mess but the legality of it is a totally different mess. And in that fight CBD has a very very unlikely ally.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, in another matter, as I mentioned a moment ago, one key piece of our unfinished business is the farm bill. Last night, I used my very own hemp pen to sign the conference report, clearing the way for the House and Senate to pass legislation and send it to the president's desk.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: I'm proud that the bill includes my provision to legalize the production of industrial hemp. It's a victory for farmers and consumers throughout our country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Fighting for Kentucky hemp has been a long struggle. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, industrial hemp, and the future of CBD.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Next on Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Brothers Inkvestment Tank, Color Inkjet, all-in-one printers deliver ultra-convenience, along with a low cost per page, and an affordable upfront price.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You will soon be enjoying uninterrupted printing with your choice of up to one or even two years of ink included in box. That means it's coming with the printer, folks. It's going to print. It's going to copy. It's going to scan. It's going to fax. It's going to do your homework. It's going to babysit the kids.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: With investment tank printers from Brother, There's no sweating over your printer running out of ink. Just the features, the convenience, the reliability, and affordability you need. Learn more at changethewayyouink.com and get yourself ready to change the way you ink.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Dan, why is CBD having such a moment right now? Is there an origin story to how it became so popular?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Kind of, yeah. So it kind of exists at the confluence of a couple different things. I think the biggest one being simply that it's legal now or that nobody cares. It's sort of both of those.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it was widely available pretty much, well, in every state. You could buy it online. You could buy it in drugstores. You could buy it from, you know, restaurants that are selling CBD-added stuff. It's more legal now, kind of, thanks to the 2018 Farm Bill, which was finally signed into law in late December of 2018.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Right. So like Mitch McConnell legalized CBD?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So this is crazy, but Mitch McConnell is like a huge proponent of CBD and hemp and stuff like that. Like he's like the premier fighter for hemp in Congress, period.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Last night I used my very own hemp pen to sign the conference report. This gets more and more complicated and interesting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How did Mitch McConnell become aligned with, like, who are we kidding, like potheads around the country?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Yeah, it's bizarre. So Mitch McConnell represents Kentucky, which is a particularly good place to grow industrial hemp and marijuana.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But he had this, like, advisor when he was running years ago that convinced him that industrial hemp could be, like, a huge boon for Kentucky agriculture.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: And he just became convinced that this was, like, a really important thing for his home state.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My state was once the national leader in the growing and production of industrial hemp. But then for decades, a federal ban halted that progress and shut American farmers out of the hemp field.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: And he's campaigned on it. He's really been at the forefront of pushing it through.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's crazy. A lot of the people who are really excited about industrial hemp being legal have nothing else in common with Mitch McConnell ideologically. But yeah, he's helped on this.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: And the connection between hemp and CBD is that you can find CBD in hemp, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yes. So there aren't proper ways to talk about this, basically. But when I talk about it, I talk about marijuana as being the types of cannabis plants that have THC in them and industrial hemp as being the ones that have a very low or no level of THC in them.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Both of those plants have CBD, but it's a lot cheaper and it's more widely legal to grow industrial hemp. So if you're growing for CBD, most of the time it's going to be coming from industrial hemp.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, so you've got all of this stuff happening recently. The farm bill, a couple of states are even backpedaling. They're limiting what you can put CBD into.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: But this isn't terribly new, right? The story I told you about my friend's mom and her CBD pen that she sent him, that happened in 2017.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The most important thing is that CBD has been widely available for a long time. But it's really only since states started legalizing marijuana, like recreational marijuana, that CBD kind of took off.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: And my theory about that is because people in other states wanted to kind of get in now that they see people in California or Colorado or wherever else enjoying recreational marijuana.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they can get that legally. There also the kind of wellness trend and the self-care trend. And CBD theoretically kind of fits into that being anti-anxiety, anti-inflammatory, and a general kind of trend for supplements lately.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: So how big is the CBD business getting?
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: It's huge. It's already probably over a billion dollars a year in the U.S. Some people expect that it's going to be like a $20 billion business in five years or 10 years or whatever it is.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: And who's making all this stuff? Is it pharmaceutical companies? Is it people who are growing hemp legally in Kentucky? What's the deal?
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: It varies, really. Like, there are kind of pharma companies that are doing it. A lot of CBD comes from China, and that's kind of bigger companies doing it.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: It's not that hard to make, really. Do you know how it's made?
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: It's dissolved in ethanol. What's the it, like the plant?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Yeah, like raw plant product is dissolved in ethanol. And then it's used in a rotary evaporator, which kind of separates stuff. And then it's run through like a centrifuge, I think, which you eventually end up with what's called a CBD isolate, which is like a white powder.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: And that powder is fat soluble. So that's why when you see stuff, it's usually in oil. It's because it has to be.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Just like THC, if you remember from making weed brownies or whatever, you always had to put the weed into butter or oil or something.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: I've never made weed brownies, Dan.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Of course not. It was kind of a general you. It could be anyone.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: Okay, got it, got it, got it. That's generally how it's made.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: You come out with this isolate.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: This story, like you've told us about CBD, has so many surprises. Billion-dollar industry, Mitch McConnell. It's not actually supposed to get you high, but sometimes it does because it's really not regulated.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: What surprised you most reporting this story for the goods?
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: I don't think I understood quite the level of scam that is involved in this. The fact that there's no oversight whatsoever, that the departments of the U.S. government that should be involved in regulating this stuff, like, can't even agree on what it is or whether it's legal.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: That stuff can be sold that says it's 100% CBD that might be 0% CBD or might be 80% THC. That's crazy. That should not happen.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: And at the very least, we should be ensuring that a product contains what it says it contains.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Did you catch any heat for saying all that?
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: Yeah, people got mad at me after I wrote the study. I got a lot of people being like, "I had a lot of anxiety and I take CBD and now the anxiety's gone." And that's great. I'm glad they found something that works for them.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: And that's great. I'm glad they found something that works for them. It's pretty unlikely that it's pure CBD doing this stuff. There could be placebo effects, could be other stuff, could be who knows.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: But yeah, it's a pretty sensitive topic for a lot of people. Anything that deals with mental health is kind of a sensitive topic.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: But I think it's important to understand what we're taking, how much of it we're taking, in what forms we're taking it, and kind of get that all sorted before we take this drug that's pretty poorly understood.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: So just to do like a little summation here, you've got this booming sort of health wellness craze around CBD. No one really knows what it is or how much we should be taking.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: And we know it's not supposed to get you high, but sometimes it does because there's THC in it.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: And Mitch McConnell's involved in the sort of boom because he legalized industrial hemp through this farm bill that passed in December.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Yeah. And the federal government, at the same time, is not doing a hell of a lot of research on it.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: Really, I think where the government is falling down is in regulation, just in terms of basic false advertising. Like, you shouldn't be allowed to say anything about cancer with CBD.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: And you shouldn't be allowed to sell it without someone having looked at it to ensure that it includes what you say it does.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: And they're selling it to dogs, too? Is that true?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Yeah, there's a lot of pet stuff out there, which is fucked up. To take it yourself is one thing, but, like, to give it to your dog, like, we don't even know how it affects people.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: I would never do that.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Do you have a dog?
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: I have two cats.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Are they users?
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: They are not. They're straight edge.
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: You're a good cat, Dad.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: Oh, thank you.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: Dan Nosowitz wrote a big, long piece about CBD for the goods. You can find it at Vox.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: I'm Sean Rameswartz. This is Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: You know I feel rude for not asking but how was that latte you had?
--:-- Dan Nosiewicz: Not great. I mean it cost like nine dollars and I mean it tasted like a latte with a little bit of that sort of oregano flavor you get from cannabis stuff.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: I only bought one.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: You know, I haven't gone back for a second.
--:-- Sean Rameswartz: Thanks to Brother for supporting the program today. Brother makes printers that, like, you know, when you're having a house party, a family gathering, people are going to go, "Whoa, what's that printer?" And you're going to be, "That's the Brother." That's the Inkvestment Tank printer. Learn more about the Brother Inkvestment Tank printer at changethewayyouink.com.
