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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A friend texted me this morning and asked what these shoe ads I've been doing. Am I saying toms.coms? No, I'm saying toms.com. But when you run it all together, toms.com slash explained, it can sound like I'm saying toms.coms. But the website where you can get 15% off your first purchase and free shipping on your next purchase of shoes or eyeglasses is toms.com slash explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What we're going to hear today is stuff from like a horrible movie. I mean, just these are crazy things. Things that we've read about that used to happen thousands of years ago. In China's Xinjiang province, to be a Uyghur Muslim is to be accused of having a contagious disease. Now, according to the United Nations panel report, more than one million Uyghur Muslims are placed in detention camps in China.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There are reports from police of lists of actions that can get you disappeared. Giving up alcohol, which is seen as a sign of Islamic extremism. Not greeting officials on the street. Growing a beard. Giving up smoking. Not knowing Chinese. If you receive a phone call from abroad, if you've gone abroad, if they find WhatsApp on your phone, a VPN, which allows you to get outside the Great Firewall, if they find a picture of a mosque or something that looks Islamic, if they stop using their phones, which they see as an effort to get outside of the surveillance network. You can be disappeared for that.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Essentially, anything that suggests to a police force that you might be externally compliant, but internally disloyal to the Communist Party of China. Ryan Thumb, you're a historian. You focus on Islam in China and on the Uyghurs. Am I saying that right? Uyghurs? Yeah, Uyghur. But you can also say... The Uyghur pronunciation is something more like Uyghur.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: Briefly, who are the Uyghurs? The Uyghurs are an ethnic group of about 11 million people in China. The vast majority of Uyghurs are Muslims. In general, they share a lot more culturally with their Central Asian neighbors than they do with the Chinese.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: So what is happening to the Uyghurs right now in China? — Extrajudicial internment of somewhere between a few hundred thousand to just over a million members of the Uyghur ethnicity and an unknown number of Kazakhs and other Muslim minorities. A million people represents 10 percent of the Uyghur population.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: And when did that start happening? — About two years ago. So it's quite remarkable that the Chinese state was able to confine such an enormous number of people in such a short amount of time. This was all done in secret, and the camps were originally sold under various innocuous names like vocational training centers.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: It was only this winter that we really had a sense of the enormous scale. And it's part of an effort to reshape Uyghur culture to fall in line with the norms of the majority culture of the Han Chinese. Where are the Uyghurs being sent? structures surrounded by double fences with barbed wire.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: I would be surprised if there are fewer than several hundred of them. One scholar has estimated about 1,200 of them, and they're spread across the region of Xinjiang, which is the part of China where the Uyghurs represent the plurality of the population.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: Pretty much any county in Xinjiang will have at least one of these, although it looks like it might be more like four or five per county. What's going on inside the camps. It's a kind of prison plus forced indoctrination.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: It's an effort by the Chinese state to inculcate a sense of love for the Communist Party of China through force. People are singing patriotic songs. They're being taught Chinese. They're memorizing bits of ideological tracts, as well as self-criticism, which is an old party tool where an individual looks back on the previous years and makes confessions about all the things they did wrong and then says, well, now I see that the party is the savior of China.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: Recently, we had something of a breakthrough report by Human Rights Watch where they interviewed 58 people who'd either been in the camps or knew someone. One of the frightening things that has come out of that is that torture seems to be somewhat widespread in these internment and indoctrination camps.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: What kinds of torture are we talking about? physical restraint and stress positions. One person said he was put in what he called a well, which is a very small space where he could only stand up for many, many hours.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: Some other detainees have described some sort of metal body suit that prevents you from moving in certain ways and is really hot inside. And then the so-called tiger chair, which is a metal chair with restraints that keeps you up all night, unable to move.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: I mean, I'm hearing everything short of they're being killed. Next to that, it sounds a lot like a concentration camp. Is that like an inappropriate comparison or is this that bad? Well, it's a sticky comparison.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: There haven't been a large number of deaths in these camps. But the precedent of the German concentration camps is important to remember because mass killing was not linked to the concentration camps in Germany for seven, eight years.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: Concentration camps existed without a program of directed mass killing. These kinds of extrajudicial systems targeted at minority groups, because they're subject to no due process and no system of accountability, can change very rapidly from one purpose to another purpose.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: We need to be very watchful We seen a lot of dehumanizing language talking about the people in the camps as weeds or tumors We know that there is no system of redress for people who are abused in the camps and no system of monitoring of the authorities
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: What about outside the camps? Is the government cracking down on Uyghurs who aren't in the camps in other ways? The camps really serve as the force behind a whole host of other policies.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: Everyone knows, because they have relatives in the camps, that at the drop of a hat, an official can, on their whim, send you away for an indeterminate time. For example, they have a policy of creating fictive relatives across ethnic groups.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: So you, as a Uyghur, will be assigned a new, quote, relative who will be a Han Chinese party member and official. And that person will come to your house, and they will look around to see what kind of books you have on your shelf.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: And in the most extreme manifestation of these home visits, officials are actually sent to Uyghur's homes to stay with them. And in many cases, because many Uyghur's families sleep together on a single platform, the Han Chinese officials will sleep in the same bed with them.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: I'm sorry, the government will come sleep in your bed to make sure you're behaving? Yes, the government will come sleep in your bed. and will eat a meal with you, which you are obliged to provide to them.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: And Uyghurs are expected to respond to this with joy. If you're caught complaining about any of these policies, that also is a sign of your disloyalty to the party and can get you sent to the camps.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: The government is even installing cameras inside people's houses to watch them. There really is no private space left for Uyghurs.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: Where is information about what's happening in these camps coming from? Information about the inside of the camps comes from a very small number of people who have the rare constellation of three characteristics.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: One, they were let out, and there don't seem to be a lot of people that have been released from the camps yet. Two, they have to have left China. And then even once they left, they have to be willing to take the risk of speaking to journalists or other researchers.
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--:-- Ryan Thumb: And that's a big risk because there's good evidence that the Chinese state will imprison family members of anyone who speaks out.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: My name is Gulchekra Hoja. I am a Uyghur reporter at Radio Free Asia in Washington, D.C. I am from Urimchi, the capital of Uyghur region, Chinese called Xinjiang.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: I have been working at Radio Free Asia 17 years. All these years, my family back home in Urumqi, they're under Chinese government's close watch. But last year, the situation getting worse.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: September of 2017, Chinese officials took my brother. my mom asked me, don't call us too often. It's going to be trouble for us.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: In February 3rd, my neighbor's daughter, she called me. Do you know your family, like 24 people been arrested because of you? 24 people? Yes.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: It was my father and mother, my aunts, my cousins, all gone. I couldn't reach them. Does this have something to do with you and the work you do here in the United States?
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: Of course, because we are the only source for world to know what's happening in the Uyghur region, so they want to punish us.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: I immediately report to our management, And then I know it's not only me, my other five colleagues also, their family missing and arrested or already held in the concentration camps.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: Then management encouraged us to speak out. Did you do it? Did you speak out? I did.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: In the congressional hearing, I gave testimony. Ms. Hoja, we'll begin with you and your testimony. Thank you for being here.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: For 17 years, I've been releasing every day similar situations, similar human rights issues, abuses by Chinese. But unfortunately, we are the only source. Radio Free Asia is the only voice to the world to talk about ourselves.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: So is that enough? We don't know. So I cannot give up. Thank you, Chairman.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: Were you afraid when you spoke out about what might happen to your family? I don't want to use afraid. Of course, we worried. We worried. But we don't afraid.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: Have you been able to speak with your family since they were detained? My mom, after she locked up in the jail, she just very sick. Because of the torture, she stays there nine days.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: Somehow I get some information. My mom is out right now. She's just like house arrest. Because of my mother's safety, I cannot go very detailed, but she been through so much mentally and physically tortured heavily Can you believe it She almost 73 years old sick woman But they don't care.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: When they took her to the facility, they black hooded her. Just because of me, they treat them like that. And the rest of your family, are they out of reach? Yes, 23 of them. My cousins, my aunt, my brother.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: Some of my cousins have very little children as two years old. I don't know where they are right now. I don't know.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: Are you ever afraid to report on everything that's going on with the Uyghurs in China as a journalist at Radio Free Asia? No, actually.
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--:-- Gulchekra Hoja: My duty is to bring light to our people. We have freedom. We have ability in this great country, but it's not fair. They're paying so much for our freedom. We have to do more.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Gulchera Hoja is a reporter at Radio Free Asia in Washington, D.C. Ahead on Today Explained, is anyone going to step in and stop this?
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The End Like, probably an 11. Okay, I'm like a 10, maybe a 9 1⁄2, depending on what kind of socks I'm wearing and how much I've been walking around.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What do we have here? This is a 9. I'm not going to be able to fit into that. This is a 9 1⁄2. That might work. No, for you, but what about me? I don't know.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is a 9. I really, really would like to wear some of these. This is a 9 1⁄2. Well, you currently are wearing a pair of shoes that has significant holes in them.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But they're pretty. They're like cool shoes. They look like they were made out of, like, wicker basket material. In fact, they do look like that, yes. And the wicker basket is falling apart.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The wicker basket is losing its shape. How about you just cut a hole in the toe side of one of these Toms? Could work, could work. I would not be opposed.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, we'll figure it out. Toms.com slash explained. If it doesn't work out, you can go there and get 15% off your first purchase and free shipping.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hmm, interesting. Did you check out the Last Seen podcast yet from WBUR? Uh, no, not yet, but I'm excited to.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you need just like a little more incentive, Last Scene asks, was it an inside job? Did the FBI let the art slip through their hands? Was Whitey Bulger and the Boston Mafia involved?
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: With the $10 million reward on the line, how do they not have one good lead in this case? I think I have one.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Almost all the world's Uyghurs live in China, but a lot of them don't consider themselves Chinese. Gulchera Hoja, who you just heard from before the break, doesn't.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She identifies much more with some of the countries that border China, Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan. But Xinjiang, the Chinese province where most of the Uyghurs live, has been under Chinese control since 1949, when the People's Republic of China was established.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Things start to get really bad for the Uyghurs in 1990. From about 1990, the state has year by year instituted more restrictive policies on Uyghurs, restricting their movement, their ability to leave the country, their ability to move within the province, restricting what they can read, what can be published, restricting where and when they can pray.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: At the same time, this is unfolding in an environment of discrimination. People are openly putting out job ads that say only Han people, only the majority ethnic group can apply.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So Uyghurs are subject to rampant discrimination. Has the Uyghur population ever taken a stand, had like a forceful protest of the treatment from China?
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There are protests that have happened pretty frequently over the last 20 or 30 years, but they're very rarely reported on. The biggest event was the 2009 protest turned riot.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ethnic tensions are never far from the surface in Xinjiang and on Sunday they boiled over they were protesting the death of Uyghur factory workers on the east coast of China who had been beaten to death by their Han Chinese co-workers.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Somewhere between 700 and 800 Uyghur workers have been moved to a separate compound and now they're under 24-hour guard. Uyghurs gathered in the city center to ask the Chinese government to respond more strongly to this unjust beating of Uyghur factory workers.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Accounts differ over what happened. Some reports say the violence started when a crowd of Uyghur protesters refused to disperse The Chinese police tried to disperse the protest with force And then some part of the protesters turned to rioting breaking store windows and indiscriminate killing of Han Chinese and also Hui people.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chinese state media says the protesters attacked passersby, burned public buses, and blocked traffic, and accuses exiled separatists for planning the violence. A day or two later, Han Chinese vigilantes emerged and went around killing Uyghurs indiscriminately.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Eyewitness accounts have been posted on the internet. Some accuse police of using electric cattle prods and firing gunshots. To the government's credit, those Han vigilantes were stopped.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But this 2009 protest riot uprising was a turning point in Xinjiang. Xinjiang. And I think part of the reason is that the Han Chinese population, which makes up about 40 percent of the population of the region of Xinjiang, rather than ask what would have made Uyghurs so angry, unsurprisingly, they asked why the government couldn't control the Uyghurs better.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the state responded by flooding the region with the People's Armed Police, putting up surveillance cameras everywhere, instituting the checkpoints, which we still see, flooding the cities with propaganda banners that call for, quote, ethnic unity.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And while that beating of the factory worker was the proximate cause, really what lay behind this was a long series of policies that created escalating grievances. And now you've got these estimates saying that roughly a million Uyghurs are in camps.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is the Chinese government openly doing this? Is it admitting it? The local governments have been quite frank and open about it.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So if you go on to the Internet and do some searching with the right Chinese terms, you'll find a lot of reports from local governments who are very proud of having done a good job of following directives from above and want to brag about it online.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For foreign audiences, on the other hand, the Chinese state initially lied about the camps and said no such thing exists. as attention grew, they started to say, well, we don't have re-education camps, but we do have vocational training camps to which we send people who have engaged in some minor criminal offense.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They have admitted that the things they've been calling all along training centers are actually places where they punish people for some sort of infraction. But the majority of the Chinese population has no idea that this is going on.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Of course, there's very little room to respond or to complain. There have been Han Chinese people in China who have raised this issue and the issue of the treatment of Tibetans on social media, and they get their accounts shut down and they're vulnerable to getting visits from the police.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's the world doing about this now that it's sort of out in the open? It's still not as widely known as I would hope.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The U.S. has actually been the first really powerful country to speak up. We've had a bunch of congressmen. The first and foremost was Marco Rubio. I doubt this is going to make it on the CBS Evening News or any of the cable news shows tonight.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But this is outrageous. And the international organizations that stand by and say nothing. Why? Because China went into somebody's country and built a road or a bridge. This is sick.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The U.S. is considering sanctions right now on Chinese officials that are involved with this policy. The new High Commissioner for Human Rights of the UN, on her first day on the job, gave a speech in which she explicitly condemned the Chinese government.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One thing I've learned from watching this unfold is that it takes a very long time for public awareness of something to develop. And then it takes a very long time for governments to develop a response.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Marco Rubio was already talking about this a few months ago. This is what these people do with the power they have now. Imagine what they will do when that power grows militarily, economically, and geopolitically.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's only now that it seems to have really trickled up to the top. If the world stands by and does nothing the way it seems to be doing with the Rohingya crisis in Myanmar, what's going to happen to the Uyghur people?
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, the important lesson from previous great injustices against ethnic minorities is that doing nothing is actually doing something. Doing nothing sends a message that it's okay.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I would also emphasize that every little bit of doing something also has a powerful effect. I talked earlier about how the Chinese official story of what these camps are has changed over time.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It shows that the Chinese government is sensitive to global opinion and that they feel a need to respond. And so if the international community can get organized and respond to this, I think it will have an effect and raise the cost of discriminatory policies for the Chinese government.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ryan Thumb is the author of The Sacred Roots of Uyghur History. I'm Sean Rameswaram for him. This is Today Explained. Thank you.
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