--:-- Noel King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noel King.
--:-- Noel King: The Trump administration has fallen short of its promise to deport millions. The White House now seems focused on attention-grabbing arrests, including that of a Palestinian activist and leader of the Columbia student protests. My guest is a policy reporter at The Verge, where she covers immigration, privacy, and the tech right. Gabby Del Valle, thanks for coming on the show.
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Noel King: So, let's start with Mahmoud Khalil. Who is he, and what happened to him last weekend?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: So, on Saturday night, he was arrested by officers from Immigration and Customs Enforcement's Homeland Security Investigations Division in his apartment. When the officers asked him to identify himself, they initially said that his student visa had been revoked. I believe at that point, he and his wife had called his attorney, and his wife and his attorney were both saying he's not here on a student visa; he has a green card. His wife, who is eight months pregnant, got the green card and showed it to the HSI officers. The officer said, well, the green card has been revoked too. Which, to be clear, ICE doesn't have the authority to revoke a green card.
--:-- Noel King: But they arrested him anyway?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: They took him first, I believe, to a detention center in New York, then transferred him to a different detention center in New Jersey. When his wife went to visit him there on Sunday, she was told that he wasn't there. And for a while, his wife and his attorney didn't know where he was until it was revealed that he had been transferred to a different ICE detention facility in rural Louisiana.
--:-- Noel King: And what's the status of his case now?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: His attorney filed a habeas petition with the Southern District of New York, which is a federal court. And a federal judge on Monday ordered that he not be deported for now and set a court hearing for today.
--:-- Noel King: Who is Mahmoud Khalil, and what's his background?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: Mahmoud Khalil is a recent graduate of Columbia University's School of International and Public Affairs, and a very prominent pro-Palestine activist on campus. He was involved in a series of protests on campus where student activists were trying to get the university to divest from military contractors and from certain companies that were based in or do business with the Israeli government.
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--:-- Noel King: The Trump administration has accused Mahmoud Khalil of being a radical foreign pro-Hamas student. But what rights does he have as a green card holder in the U.S.?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: In most cases, people in deportation proceedings have the right to a hearing before an immigration judge. So, despite what the government is saying, despite what the White House is saying, he cannot just be deported today or tomorrow or this week. He has to go before an immigration judge, and only an immigration judge can decide whether Mahmoud will be deported.
--:-- Noel King: And what case would the Trump administration have to make in order to get him deported?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: It works differently depending on what the grounds for deportability are. If he were a green card holder and he had been charged with certain crimes, crimes including what is called crimes of moral turpitude or aggravated felonies, which are not all felonies. That could then trigger deportation proceedings.
--:-- Noel King: But this is a really unusual case. Deportability is being argued on a foreign policy ground. So, the administration is going to have to prove that his activities in the United States are in some way a threat to national security or to the U.S.'s foreign policy interests.
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: The question is, what they're going to point to to prove that. Like, is it going to be his involvement in campus protests? And if so, is there then a First Amendment counterargument? Will his attorney be able to say he was not doing anything dangerous or anything threatening to national security? He was exercising his First Amendment rights.
--:-- Noel King: And what about the Trump administration's claims that Mahmoud Khalil is a threat to national security?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: The Trump administration has not provided any evidence to support that claim. And it's worth noting that Mahmoud Khalil has not been accused of any acts of violence or any other crimes.
--:-- Noel King: So, why do you think Mahmoud Khalil was singled out?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: I think there are a few different reasons why he was singled out. One of them is that he's an easier target than a lot of other students. His name is out there. His information is out there. The government knows that he's not a U.S. citizen.
--:-- Noel King: And what about the role of organizations like Canary Mission and the Heritage Foundation's Project Esther in targeting students like Mahmoud Khalil?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: These organizations have been tracking and documenting students who are involved in pro-Palestine activism on campus. And they've been sharing that information with immigration authorities.
--:-- Noel King: And what about the broader context of the Trump administration's immigration policies?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: The Trump administration has been trying to increase deportations, but they're not getting the numbers they want. So, they're relying on high-profile arrests and deportations to try to make it look like they're doing something.
--:-- Noel King: And what about the impact of these policies on communities?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: These policies are creating a lot of fear and anxiety in communities. People are afraid to go to work, to go to school, to send their kids to school. It's already scaring people.
--:-- Noel King: And what about the Trump administration's claims that they're focusing on deporting people who are a threat to national security?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: That's not what's happening. They're deporting people who are not a threat to national security. They're deporting people who are not a threat to the country.
--:-- Noel King: And what about the role of the media in covering these stories?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: The media needs to be more critical of the Trump administration's claims. We need to be fact-checking and verifying the information that they're providing.
--:-- Noel King: And what about the impact of these policies on the broader conversation about immigration?
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: These policies are creating a lot of division and fear in the country. We need to be having a more nuanced conversation about immigration and the role that immigrants play in our society.
--:-- Noel King: Gabby Del Valle, thanks for joining me on the show.
--:-- Gabby Del Valle: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Noel King: Today's show was produced by Avishay Artsy and Gabrielle Berbey, edited by Amina Al-Sadi, fact-checked by Laura Bullard and Amanda Lewellyn, engineered by Patrick Boyd and Andrea Kristinsdottir, and hosted by me, Noel King.
--:-- Noel King: If you want to support Today Explained, you can become a Vox Member today. Go to vox.com/members.
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