--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The crown prince of Saudi Arabia, a guy people call MBS, may have just made a very big mistake.
--:-- [Discussion continues]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All right, now to this disturbing story. In an era where the press is under attack all over the world, the Washington Post is reporting one of its columnists has gone missing at a consulate in Turkey.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: Members of the United States and Turkish governments think that MBS authorized a hit squad to travel to Turkey and covertly kill a Saudi journalist who was there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The crown prince may have thought no one would notice. But people noticed, and it's not going away. Justice for Jamal! Justice for Jamal!
--:-- [Discussion continues]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The life of Jamal Khashoggi. The life of Jamal Khashoggi.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: Jamal Khashoggi is a 59-year-old journalist. He's also a Washington Post columnist. He was last seen October 2nd in Istanbul, entering the Saudi consulate to get a document so that he could marry his Turkish fiancée.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He hasn't been seen since.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: Turkish authorities are claiming that he was murdered in the consulate. After Turkish police announced they were conducting a murder investigation, Saudi Arabia's state news agency denied accusations that Khashoggi was murdered in their consulate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the Saudi government is denying that they've had any involvement, saying that he left the consulate through another entrance.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: They're also saying that they're looking to find him and they're concerned about his whereabouts and that they're cooperating fully with the Turkish government's investigation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Three days later, Turkey's foreign ministry summoned Saudi Arabia's ambassador to Ankara.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: And Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman said Turkish police could search the Saudi consulates.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They then invited journalists in to show Khashoggi was not there.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: On Tuesday night, the Washington Post reported that U.S. intelligence had actually intercepted communications of Saudi plans to lure Khashoggi and to bring him back to Saudi Arabia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They also said that the investigation has expanded to include the consul general Mohamed El-Otebi's residence, since a vehicle left the consulate and went there for a few hours around the same time that the journalist disappeared.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: And also the Turkish staff at the consul general's house were told to take the day off, so that sounds kind of suspicious.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The New York Times also reported on Tuesday that Khashoggi was assassinated at the direction of the Saudi royal court.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: So they're saying, according to their sources, that the direction came down on high to assassinate him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And different officials, different Turkish officials and different sources have said that there's a team of 15 Saudi agents who flew from Riyadh and arrived in two private planes last Tuesday, the day that the journalist disappeared and then left hours later.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: There's also all these gruesome rumors that are circulating.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There was a Turkish official that said that he was killed and his body was dismembered with a bone saw.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: And they're also saying that there's video of the murder, but these things have yet to be confirmed.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow. I mean, no one even knows if he's dead for sure, right?
--:-- Alexia Underwood: Nobody knows for sure.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Khashoggi's fiancée was pacing up and down outside the consulate, more and more anxious.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: Tell me a little bit more about Jamal Khashoggi. What's his background?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's not your quintessential dissident or activist, which is why this is a little bit more surprising.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: Until now, I don't call myself an opposition. I always say I am just a writer. I want a free environment to write and speak my mind.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's what I do in the Washington Post.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: So he was a prominent journalist in the kingdom for several years.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He made his career in the 80s and 90s working as a foreign correspondent for different Saudi newspapers, traveling across the Middle East.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He interviewed Osama bin Laden several times.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's not really fair, again, to call him a dissident.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He edited the Saudi newspaper Al-Watan.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He was the director of an Arabic language news channel.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: So he was pretty prominent and part of like the establishment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then he also used to enjoy close ties to the Saudi royal family.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He worked as an advisor to a prominent Saudi prince who used to be the former head of intelligence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But over the past year, I would say, or year and a half, with the rise of the new crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, Khashoggi has become more critical of the Saudi government.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: And as Mohammed bin Salman, or MBS, as we know him, has cracked down on free speech and sort of arrested a lot of Khashoggi's friends and writers and intellectuals.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He became afraid that he was going to be arrested.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: So he left the country in the summer of 2017.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He resettled in the D.C. area, and he said that he was living in self-imposed exile.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: So what kinds of things has he been saying about MBS, who's the Saudi crown prince, who's essentially the leader of the country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I have some examples from pieces that he's written for the Washington Post.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He was a columnist for the global opinion section
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In a column from last September which was titled Saudi Arabia wasn Always This Repressive Now It Unbearable
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He writes My friends and I living abroad feel helpless We want our country to thrive and to see the 2030 vision realized We're not opposed to our government, and we care deeply about Saudi Arabia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's the only home we know or want, yet we are the enemy.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: I've made a different choice now. I've left my home, my family, and my job, and I'm raising my voice.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: To do otherwise would betray those who languish in prison.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: I can speak when so many cannot.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I want you to know that Saudi Arabia has not always been as it is now.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: We Saudis deserve better.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then he also wrote in April of this year, In Saudi Arabia at the moment, people simply don't dare to speak.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: The country has seen the blacklisting of those who dare raise their voices, the imprisonment of moderately critical intellectuals and religious figures, and the alleged anti-corruption crackdown on royals and other business leaders.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Women today should have the same rights as men, and all citizens should have the right to speak their minds without fear of imprisonment.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: But replacing old tactics of intolerance with new ways of repression is not the answer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Did he know that he may have been risking his life to write these kinds of things?
--:-- Alexia Underwood: I think he did.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In August, he told a journalist who is a contributing writer to The New Yorker that he thought that the Saudi government was after him and that they would love to see him killed.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He's expressed his fears to many people that he just couldn't keep living there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I have made it in my life. I can't retire here in America happily and just write non-important issues and go on with my life.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: But I'm worried for my grandchildren.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What worries me the most is one-man rule. It always goes wrong in any country, whether we are talking about Saudi Arabia or Germany or Iraq.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So who is MBS?
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He's new to the Saudi leadership, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah. So MBS or Mohammed bin Salman, he's the crown prince and he is the heir to the throne.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He's also essentially the de facto day-to-day ruler of Saudi Arabia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He really consolidated power in June of 2017 where he plotted against his cousin Mohammed bin Nayef and pushed him aside.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: And he has tried to paint himself as this sort of reform-minded, like, young progressive leader in some ways.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's 33 years old.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He's loosened restrictions on women driving in the kingdom.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's allowed cinemas to open.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: But at the same time, he's also engaged in this purge of opposition.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he has cracked down on activists.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He's imprisoned dozens of activists.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's cracked down on free speech.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: And any dissident voices in the kingdom are in danger of being thrown in prison at this point.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Even if somehow an investigation uncovers that Khashoggi was murdered, will there be consequences for MBS?
--:-- Alexia Underwood: You know, I don't think that there would be consequences for MBS.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I do think that it would definitely change the relationship between Turkey and Saudi Arabia.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: And it could put strain on the relationship between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia since Khashoggi was a resident of the U.S.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: President Trump has said that he's concerned about what's happening.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: It's a very sad situation. It's a very bad situation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we want to get to the bottom of it.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: So on Wednesday, a bipartisan group of senators sent a letter to the Trump administration asking them to impose sanctions on anyone who is responsible for the disappearance of this journalist.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this letter that the senator sent triggered something called the Global Magnitsky Act of 2016.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: Now, this allows the U.S. to impose sanctions on individuals who have committed human rights abuses anywhere in the world.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the Trump administration now has 120 days to decide whether or not to impose sanctions on Saudi officials.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: And this puts Trump in a tough spot.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't like the concept of stopping an investment of $110 billion into the United States.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: Because you know what they're going to do? They're going to take that money and spend it in Russia or China or someplace else.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I think there are other ways. If it turns out to be as bad as it might be, there are certainly other ways of handling this situation.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: First of all, it should be known that President Trump has been very, very supportive of Saudi Arabia and MBS.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He hosted MBS at the White House.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He chose Saudi Arabia as his first trip abroad.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And also, the U.S. has supported the Saudi-led war on Yemen, which, as we know, is a really horrific war.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: It's a bloody war. Tens of thousands of people have been killed.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the U.S. is selling arms to Saudi Arabia.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: They're refueling planes. They're sharing intelligence with the country so the U.S. could withdraw their support or, you know, they could stop helping the Saudis fight this really violent war in Yemen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Has the government and MBS disappeared others?
--:-- Alexia Underwood: There are stories of Saudi expats who have been arrested or disappeared.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's stories of dissidents or activists who were arrested in the United Arab Emirates and in Jordan.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: And a Saudi activist in Canada who makes YouTube videos making fun of MBS and also calling out the Saudi government for their horrific human rights record has had two of his brothers and his friends in Saudi Arabia arrested
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: MBS is trying to send a message to Saudi expats and dissidents and activists, wherever they may be, saying if you speak out against the regime, even if you live in the U.S., even if you happen to be visiting another country, you aren't out of our reach.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: Like, we can still get you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Coming up, I'm going to speak with a Saudi dissident who has been threatened by the government.
--:-- Alexia Underwood: He's scared of the government, but he's not going to be silenced.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Ramas-Firm. This is Today Explained.
--:-- [Sound of a phone ringing]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Saudi embassy here in London. I would like to send a message to King Salman.
--:-- [Sound of a person speaking in the background]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We are not afraid of you.
--:-- [Sound of a person speaking in the background]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh my God, what I think happened to him.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: I don't think we will never hear from him again, whether he is back in Saudi or he has been killed at the consulate.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it is very, very scary.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: Ghannam al-Musarir didn't personally know Jamal Hashoujee, but he knew his work.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I know him from his articles, which I do respect and I do read them.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: And I also did criticize him for working with the government for this too many years and only figuring out at later date that they are evil, not just MPS himself.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All of them.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: Ghanem is less of a journalist, more of a dissident, a thorn in Saudi Arabia's side.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Royal family, you will end up in jail.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: So you live in fear all the time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Since he left Saudi Arabia and moved to London in 2003, he's amassed hundreds of thousands of followers on social media where he lambasts the Saudi government for a living.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: Well, I have a YouTube channel. Two of them have been taken down by the Saudis.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And my YouTube channel right now, the last one, which I created in 2015, is still up and running.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: Which I'm grateful for it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the Saudis, they strike my YouTube channel for no reason, from time to time.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: So it's ongoing war, you know, cyber war.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And yeah, I'm using my Twitter account, which is going well.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: And I have no issue with Twitter.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What do you post on your YouTube channel? What do you do online?
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: I criticize them. I make jokes of them. I am free and I say what I believe.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What kind of jokes?
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: MBS joke.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: MBS joke.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: Well, I called him Dubdashir, which means fat.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know how to translate it to English.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: It has been very hard.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But Dubdashir, it's like fat beer or something, or beer out of control or something like that.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: Oh, it's a fat joke?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: So, yeah, this nickname that I gave him, Dubdashir, has been worldwide right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Or even the economist has written about it.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: And everybody in Saudi knows him by his nickname.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we don't think he likes you.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: I don't think so.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I don't think he likes anyone who seeks democracy or freedom or who want to be free to say what they think, not just me.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: And I think he's going outrage because he gets support or he thinks he's getting support. Unlimited support from President Trump.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think he's trying to silence me and others.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: And if he's willing to do that with Jamal Khashoggi, I think he won't do it with me if he has the opportunity to do so.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you ever feel scared that they hacking you that they trying to quiet you?
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: Of course, of course you feel scared.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They have attacked me last 31st of August here in London in broad daylight by two Saudis who we presume they are Saudi agents.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: What did they do to you?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They punch me in the face and shouting King Salman and Mohammed bin Salman's name.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: And the case is with the UK police right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there are photos and there are videos of the attack.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: Ghanem, you've been attacked, you've been hacked. Jamal has probably been murdered.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Are you going to stop posting online?
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: I will definitely take extra measures to be very careful, but I will not be stopped.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I will continue doing what I believe it's the right things to do.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: Do you still have family back home in Saudi Arabia?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yes, sir, I do have my family.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: But since the attack on me, I haven't heard anything from anyone from my family.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Are you scared for your family?
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: If they can disappear, a journalist, maybe even kill him, what would they do to a regular person who doesn't have access to American media or international media?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Absolutely.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: Absolutely.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Last year, I called for a demonstration in Saudi Arabia, and the government has sent a team to my parents' house, and they recorded them in a video.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: They asked them if they agree with me or not.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They pressured them to disappoint me in front of a camera.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: So if the government is willing to go that far and I haven't heard anything come from my family since the attack on me the 31st of August and it is very very scary very very scary
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Saudis uses their embassies and cancellates to kidnap people to commit crimes.
--:-- Ghanem al-Musarir: And I'm 100% sure there are many, many Saudis whose low profile has been lured to a Saudi embassy around the world and they've been kidnapped and we never heard of them because they have no voice and they are not well known.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find Ghanem Al Musarir's show on YouTube it's called The Ghanem Show and he's on Twitter at Ghanem Al Musarir that's G-H-A-N-E-M-A-L-M-A-S-A-R-I-R
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks to Alexia Underwood at Vox she's an editor on all things foreign and national security
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- [Sound of a phone ringing]
--:-- Aaron: Hi, Sean. Hi, Aaron.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Can I call you bread?
--:-- Aaron: Oh, we don't make bread, though.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I know. Apparently, you guys make cookies.
--:-- Aaron: We make cookies and cake and scones and muffins and cookie pies and all that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I know, but I read about Ovenly. It's like a bakery.
--:-- Aaron: And I was like, oh, like bread.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then I called your co-host on the podcast there, Start to Sail.
--:-- Aaron: And I was like, hey, I got to call your friend, the bread half.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And she was like, yeah, I called the bread half.
--:-- Aaron: And then she was like, by the way the bread half it's like more like cookies and stuff but i was already on this bread tear and now i feel like we should clarify that ovenly does not make bread
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ovenly does not make bread but you Erin the founder of ovenly do now make a podcast
--:-- Erin: What's your favorite part of doing that?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My favorite part of the show so far is the end of each episode at the end of each episode we ask the entrepreneur what a skill is that really helped them launch their company to a next phase or that they really had to learn to be good leaders, and can they break it down for the audience?
--:-- Erin: And every single person has a different answer, and each of those answers is amazing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, Jane Werwin from Dermalogica, her skill was how to empathetically fire someone.
--:-- Erin: Kate and Penelope from Witch Sea, their skill was how to fail, and how to fail fast so you're not focusing on things you're bad at.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's your skill, Erin?
--:-- Erin: Confrontation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ooh, that sounds juicy.
--:-- Erin: I guess we can hear more of that on From Start to Sail, wherever you find your podcasts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yep, along with a whole slew of amazing people.
