--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm your host, Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Noel King: And I'm Noel King. Today, we're talking about Facebook's new name: Meta. But before we get to that, let's talk about the problem that Facebook is trying to solve.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They are Legion. A few weeks ago, we brought you a story about the Facebook whistleblower, Francis Haugen. She provided internal Facebook documents to the Wall Street Journal, and the journal went on to publish a series of damning stories using these documents.
--:-- Noel King: Instagram is bad for teens, Facebook isn't doing enough to stop human trafficking, and the algorithms on the platform are making people angrier.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Skip ahead to this week, and there's another big round of stories about Facebook originating from those same leaked documents, this time from news outlets around the world.
--:-- Noel King: Facebook struggled to prevent users from organizing around the January 6th insurrection. The platform's algorithm weighs angry reactions as five times more important than regular likes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And in one experiment, researchers created a test account for a fictional conservative user named Carol Smith from North Carolina. It took just two days before it recommended Carol join Facebook groups for QAnon.
--:-- Noel King: All these new revelations come from an unusual arrangement. A group of journalists who are usually competing to be first on the story actually kind of collaborated.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's funny because we also were organizing on Slack. There was a Slack group with all these outlets called Apparently We're a Consortium Now.
--:-- Noel King: Alex Heath at The Verge was one of them. Somebody leaked those comments to The New York Times, and I think I was in there saying this is the weirdest thing I've been a part of reporting-wise.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's incredibly unique, and it's also coming as Frances Haugen is testifying to regulators around the world.
--:-- [Sound effects: A phone ringing]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today we're pleased to welcome Frances Haugen to give evidence to the committee.
--:-- Frances Haugen: Frances, we're delighted that you've been able to make this trip to be in London and give evidence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But she's kind of using the dump of these documents to fuel her appearances. Why is she taking this approach? Why didn't she just sort of tell Jeff where the juicy stuff was, let him do all the reporting?
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: I don't want to speak for her, Jeff, but what's clear after looking through a good chunk of them is that it's just a lot of information.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, research presentations that are incredibly long. It would be a lot for any one reporter to work on, much less one newsroom.
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: I think she has said since a lot of these initial stories hit that she wants to also share these with academics, with independent researchers who study the platform.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I think, you know, over the next several weeks and months, most of these are going to be in the public domain, regardless of whether they've been reported on or not.
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: I want to focus on something you wrote about in particular because it has to do with the future of the company.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What did you find in these documents about how Facebook has been doing among future generations of users, among younger users?
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Yeah, so a lot of these documents and a lot of the coverage has been focused on the integrity stuff, on the content moderation stuff, how Facebook has kind of struggled to deal with hate speech and misinformation outside of the US in particular.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What I noticed going through these documents is that there's a sizable chunk of them that focus on the company's work on young adults and teens.
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And we've seen some stories about the research they did showing that a subset of teens say they have negative experiences on the platform.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And here you go. 66% of teen girls on Instagram and 40% of teen boys experience negative social comparisons.
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: How could your company know that, do research on it, and ignore it?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: First, that's not an accurate characterization.
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: But what I saw too were a lot of pretty high-level internal presentations, pretty rich data showing that the company is having essentially an existential crisis with young people.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they think that if they can't correct course and if they can't get young people to care about Facebook and actually keep engaging with Instagram, that they'll go into this self-sustaining decay.
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Facebook internally, they map their user base to United Nations population estimates and demographics.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what they started to notice is that their population is aging disproportionately to the UN data.
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And so what is happening is that the audience is getting older and fewer and fewer young people are coming on.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And teens, Gen Z and younger, are basically not coming on at all.
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And for them that's a huge problem because Facebook thinks very long term and even though they have 3 billion users now they think that they'll basically lose out on a generation if this continues and Instagram which is fully saturated is what they call it when it maps the UN data with teens and all their key markets is still losing engagement sometimes in a double digit percentage drop year over year and teens are actually posting less in the app as well
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it backs up a lot of the research and the data that I saw that was frankly pretty damning saying that young people see the company as having all these privacy issues
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: They see a lot of social comparison and pressure to be the perfect versions of themselves
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so it's leading them to post less
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And then you also have platforms like Snap and TikTok that are eating into the time spent that Facebook normally has with young people
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They internally estimate that TikTok has 2 to 3x daily time spent than Instagram with teens
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And they know internally that Snapchat is the preferred method of communication between close friends for teens
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so, you know, for a company this big and this powerful, you wouldn't think that this would necessarily be that big of a deal for them
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: But then we saw on their most recent earnings call, Mark Zuckerberg say, Our services have gotten dialed to be the best for the most people who use them, rather than specifically for young adults
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And during this period, competition has also gotten a lot more intense
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: So we are retooling our teams to make serving young adults their North Star, rather than optimizing for the larger number of older people
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because they recognize that this is such a big threat for them
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And this is, of course, got to be extra painful for an app that literally started with entirely young adults
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: I mean, that's the irony of all of this is that Facebook started on college campuses
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We have something that we've been working on for a while and we think it's great
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: It's called the Harvard connection
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You create your own page, interest, bio, friends, pics, and then people can go online and see your bio, request
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Yeah
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How is that different from MySpace or Friendster?
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Harvard.edu
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they've totally lost that ground
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And what they've identified is the, they call it brand permission
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Where they have brand permission still is around careers and causes
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Those are the two things they think that people 20 to 30 will still maybe use Facebook for
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I think what you're going to see in the product over the next couple of years is Facebook's going to start looking a lot like LinkedIn
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: They're working on resume tools, career tabs tools, job finding, and they want to use the causes thing, helping people find causes that they care about, whether it's BLM or what have you, to eventually extend into areas like mental health products
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Which also presents a huge can of worms given Facebook's track record
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: What if your cause is like being an oath keeper?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Are they into that still?
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: No comment
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I think on Instagram, what they've realized is they have the teen audience, but the teen audience is not as engaged
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: So they're trying to lean into things that they know teens like, which is pseudo anonymity, having multiple accounts
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We heard Blumenthal, Senator Blumenthal, ask if they could pledge to end the Finsta recently in a Senate hearing
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Will you commit to ending Finsta?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Senator again, let me explain we don't actually we don't actually do do finsta
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: They're leaning into finsta
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They see young people increasingly using finsta which is you know a private account where you can be your more authentic self versus a public one
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And you can see it in younger platforms like discord where this is already how young people are interacting
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And in roblox for example, which is this wildly popular gaming app for young people that is essentially like Fortnite, but anyone can build their own world and their own game and their own virtual objects and sell them to people
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: You're a 3D avatar that doesn't even need to look or sound like you at all
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so they know that these are the more kind of compelling ways that young people are using the internet
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: I think it might be hard for people to wrap their heads around how a company this successful and this dominant, I mean, something like 3 billion users, I mean, could be struggling, could be thinking about its existential future
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But that's where we're at
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: I like to think about China and population control as an analogy here
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So China recently realized we have a very aging population because we had a rule where people couldn't have a lot of kids
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And so they recently changed that
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's a long term kind of thing
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And it's something that you think about in a macro sense
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think Facebook looks at it the same way
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: They say, yeah, we have a lot of users now
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The older ones are very engaged
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: The problem is, is they're going to die faster than the younger ones
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the younger ones are increasingly turning to Snapchat, TikTok, Roblox, Fortnite, Discord as a place where they want to hang out online
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And those young people will grow up never using Facebook
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's the first time in Facebook 17 years that that's starting to happen
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And they're recognizing a whole cohort of younger people that are just completely ignoring the service
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so it's why you see Instagram wanting to do an app for kids, for preteens, because they think maybe if we can get them early enough before they start to go to the platforms that we know they like and we know that their older siblings will tell them
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: It's interesting
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They've also done research showing that teens on Instagram persuade their household on what to use
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: They're kind of the culture makers for social media
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So they tell their younger siblings what's cool
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: They tell their parents what's cool
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so getting this demographic is existential for them
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And I think that's a big reason why the company is completely rebranding to focus on the metaverse
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We've learned a lot from struggling with social issues and living under closed platforms
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: And now it is time to take everything that we have learned and help build the next chapter
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The future is going to be beyond anything we can imagine
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Thank you
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Paid up to two days early with direct deposit
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: So much more
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chime says with qualifying direct deposits, you can be eligible for free overdraft up to $200 on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Plus, they say you don't need to worry about monthly fees or maintenance fees
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can work on your financial goals through Chime today
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: You can open an account in two minutes at Chime.com slash explained
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's Chime.com slash explained
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Chime feels like progress
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chime is a financial technology company not a bank
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA Members FDIC
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Timing depends on submission of payment file
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: These apply at out ATMs
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Bank ranking and number of ATMs according to U News and World Report 2023
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Time checking account required
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Support for this show comes from Macy's
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's almost fall, and that means it's time to cycle your wardrobe to the cold setting
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Because while everyone loves a breezy summer outfit, let's be real
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Layering is even more fun
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: That's why Macy's Fall Fashion Guide has everything you need to piece together the perfect look for you
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's your one-stop shop for fall's latest trends and must-haves, curated by their experts
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Add a statement shoe to your collection, like the calf-hair loafers from Steve Madden
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Or tap into your romantic side with flowy dresses from Cece and sheer pieces from INC
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: You can even throw in some textural layers for contrast, like a faux fur bomber jacket from Karl Lagerfeld Paris
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Whether your old favorite sweater or coat is on its last threads, or you're just craving a new vibe to switch things up, Macy's has got you covered this season
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Find the perfect layering pieces for you by exploring the Macy's Fall Fashion Style Guide
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Shop in-store or online at macy's.com
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: It is time for us to adopt a new company brand to encompass everything that we do, to reflect who we are and what we hope to build
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I am proud to announce that starting today, our company is now Meta
--:-- Jeff Horowitz: Thanks, Mark
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Alex, MetaMark today announced he no longer runs Facebook, but instead runs something called Meta?
--:-- Alex Heath: Yeah, I think Facebook realizes that its brand, the Facebook app, is not the future, as we've been talking about
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The audience is literally dying and there's just so much negative PR and brand baggage around it right now
--:-- Alex Heath: I think what this does is it helps position them as a company that's innovative with employees and future employees
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Which is a thing that I think we in the media don't really fully appreciate how much these companies obsess with recruiting
--:-- Alex Heath: Because talent is incredibly competitive in Silicon Valley
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if you're going to work for this futuristic metaverse company instead of the Facebook app as we know it, maybe you would take the job that you otherwise wouldn't
--:-- Alex Heath: I also think it's about trying to be relevant with younger people and just be seen as a company that is future-leaning, building future platforms, and not just kind of stuck in the current social media world and all the ills that that entails
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they will be escaping that world to enter the metaverse
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What the hell is it, right?
--:-- Alex Heath: What the hell is it, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, it's kind of ironic because, I don't know, what is the definition of irony, actually?
--:-- Alex Heath: Don't ask Alanis Morissette
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, it's interesting they're using this word metaverse so much because it originates from a dystopian sci-fi novel in the 90s where people were literally fleeing the real world to a virtual world to escape a crumbling society
--:-- Alex Heath: Perfect
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So there's a lot of analogies, yeah, that you could draw to the current world we find ourselves in that partly Facebook has wrought
--:-- Alex Heath: I think it's pretty interesting that Zuckerberg, who fully controls Facebook, is pretty much singularly focused on something that's not going to materialize for at least five to 10 years
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we don't really see him talking that much about the effects of Facebook on society right now
--:-- Alex Heath: And I think that shows where his head is at
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I've been covering Silicon Valley for a while, and a lot of these big tech CEO founders, they like to think that far ahead for better or worse
--:-- Alex Heath: And Mark is definitely one of those people that's thinking a decade out
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what exactly is his vision for this metaverse?
--:-- Alex Heath: It's what you see in movies like Ready Player One
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Go anywhere
--:-- Alex Heath: Like the vacation planet
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Surf a 50-foot monster wave in Hawaii
--:-- Alex Heath: You can ski down the pyramids
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can climb Mount Everest with Batman
--:-- Alex Heath: Their virtual world is going to become so compelling and so immersive that it's going to draw people out of the real one for a good part of their day
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That it will replace things like our desktop computers, our laptops, and our phones to a degree
--:-- Alex Heath: And that there's going to be this hybrid mixed reality world too with AR glasses where I can see a teleported version of you in front of me in my living room
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Or I could go with you into an underwater sea chamber and we could like play chess down there
--:-- Alex Heath: We believe the metaverse will be the successor to the mobile internet
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We'll be able to feel present, like we're right there with people no matter how far apart we actually are
--:-- Alex Heath: We'll be able to express ourselves in new, joyful, completely immersive ways
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's going to unlock a lot of amazing new experiences
--:-- Alex Heath: Haunting
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The technology is progressing to the rate where I do think this kind of world will happen
--:-- Alex Heath: And if you look at the history of technology, it started as these very impersonal, large, detached from the human body things
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We had mainframes
--:-- Alex Heath: We had large server racks
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Then we had these bulky desktop computers
--:-- Alex Heath: Then we had laptops
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Then we had phones
--:-- Alex Heath: Then we had wearables
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now we're getting things on our face
--:-- Alex Heath: Now there's brain technology that Facebook is working on where they'll literally be able to discern how you want to control this interface with your mind
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Terrifying
--:-- Alex Heath: So over time, technology just becomes more personal and more immersive for better or worse
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think that's what Facebook sees as inevitable here
--:-- Alex Heath: Screens just can't convey the full range of human expression and connection
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They can't deliver that deep feeling of presence
--:-- Alex Heath: But the next version of the Internet can
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mark Zuckerberg is serious that this is the future of his company
--:-- Alex Heath: Oh, they're very serious
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They just said in their recent earnings call that they're spending at least $10 billion on this in this year alone
--:-- Alex Heath: $10 billion
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: $10 billion
--:-- Alex Heath: And I expect this investment to grow even further for each of the next several years
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Which, to put it in perspective, they paid $1 billion for Instagram
--:-- Alex Heath: And they're going to spend even more in the years to come
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're actually spinning it up as its own division with its own, you know, they're going to report it separately in earnings
--:-- Alex Heath: And yeah, I think this is the future that Mark is staking the company on, no doubt
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Have they put out any metaverse-ish products yet?
--:-- Alex Heath: There is this thing called Horizon, which is this kind of metaverse-y platform of apps and experiences right now on the Oculus Quest, their VR headset
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They want to extend it to other devices but it a little bit like Fortnite meets Roblox meets Minecraft there a work version there a play version Hang out with your friends version gaming version Build virtual worlds that people can come visit
--:-- Alex Heath: It's very early and they've had it in beta for quite some time
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But that's the big bet is that this virtual world, which is essentially just a 3D version of Facebook, you know, without the newsfeed, but the same people building it
--:-- Alex Heath: And so, you know, feel about that how you will, but that's what they're building
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So what might sound sort of like a VR video game world to a lot of people will actually be potentially where we socialize, where we work, where we conduct our daily affairs
--:-- Alex Heath: That's what they're betting on here, essentially
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's the bet
--:-- Alex Heath: And that we'll want to go fully into that virtual world sometimes, maybe when the real world isn't as compelling as that virtual world, which sounds kind of dystopian, but I think there's a little bit of truth to that
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you're sitting in your house looking at your living room, why would you not want to be in some fantastical place with your friends who live across the world?
--:-- Alex Heath: Personally, because I'm like a big reality guy, but I can see it for other people
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, that's fair
--:-- Alex Heath: I was going to say that also a part of this is also bringing it into the real world, the AR component of it
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's augmented reality?
--:-- Alex Heath: That's augmented reality
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's graphics overlaid onto the real world around you
--:-- Alex Heath: And I think it'll be a hybrid of both
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think we'll go into these virtual worlds sometimes, maybe when we're working or when we're socializing remotely or playing a game
--:-- Alex Heath: And then we'll have these AR glasses that augment what our phone does, that show us directions when we're walking around, that show us text without needing to look at a screen
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's going to be a mix of both of those worlds
--:-- Alex Heath: But what's important to note here is that Facebook doesn't really care if you or I are into this idea
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They care that the kids are
--:-- Alex Heath: I mean, I think kids have shown that they do love these 3D worlds
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like Roblox's user base is heavily teen-focused, even pre-teen
--:-- Alex Heath: And same thing with Fortnite, where people are already hanging out as these disembodied avatars that aren't really them and socializing
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's concerts, Travis Scott performing in Fortnite
--:-- Alex Heath: It's already not just a game
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so this is already happening in our 2D screens, and the tech is being built to make it fully immersive in 3D
--:-- Alex Heath: You mentioned that this all was sort of inspired from a plot point in a dystopian novel, and this is the company that's currently in trouble for bringing the world a whole host of problematic alternative facts
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And now they're saying, well, what if we brought you a whole alternative reality?
--:-- Alex Heath: It's wild
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you think anyone in the company is aware how that might not be the best look?
--:-- Alex Heath: I do think they're trying to approach it in a way that they didn't with the original version of Facebook
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When Facebook was first built, they didn't think about any of this stuff
--:-- Alex Heath: They didn't think about that it could potentially be used to help organize the insurrection
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was all about just let's try to get as many people on the service as we can and get them broadcasting to as many people as possible
--:-- Alex Heath: So if this metaverse world is built in a similar way where you're able to communicate to millions of people instantly that you don't know and be introduced to them through algorithms that you have no control over, then yeah, we probably are in for a problem
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I hope that they design it differently
--:-- Alex Heath: It's pretty early
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We don't really know exactly how all this is going to work
--:-- Alex Heath: I would hope that the last five years have taught them that they cannot build this in the way that they built Facebook
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there any chance that all of this attention on the company right now could impede this pivot to the metaverse?
--:-- Alex Heath: Well, it's interesting because what the regulatory attention has done already has kept them from being able to buy the next Instagram or the next WhatsApp in the current social media world
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think if Facebook would have had its way, they would own Snap, they would own TikTok, they would own Discord
--:-- Alex Heath: They used to just buy anything that young people thought was cool
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They can't do that anymore
--:-- Alex Heath: I don't know if our lawmakers understand the metaverse enough or kind of how big this could become to preemptively legislate what Facebook can do
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And our laws aren't set up to just impede a company from buying things in a nascent space just because the company has wreaked havoc in parts of like civic society, right?
--:-- Alex Heath: It's an antitrust debate, but it's very complicated
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I'm not sure
--:-- Alex Heath: They're buying a lot of like VR companies
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They spent about a half billion dollars on a company building an armband that can read your thoughts
--:-- Alex Heath: And at the same time, regulators are saying we have antitrust concerns
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Meanwhile, they're buying mind reading technology
--:-- Alex Heath: So they seem to think they can get away with this
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So what you're saying is we got to get Blumenthal reading about the metaverse
--:-- Alex Heath: Well, first, he's got to ban Finstas
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You got to keep that in
--:-- Alex Heath: And while all of this is happening, Facebook still is the most dominant social media company in the universe, in our reality
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They are
--:-- Alex Heath: They have a population larger than I think any country on Earth
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're growing slower than they used to, but they're still growing
--:-- Alex Heath: So while the company pivots to an alternate future reality, we should remain concerned about how they are managing our present day reality
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, sure
--:-- Alex Heath: I think that's what the reporting on the Facebook papers is trying to do
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think lawmakers are trying to figure out how they can legislate big tech
--:-- Alex Heath: The problem is, is that a lot of the issues with Facebook have to do with free speech
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They have to do with the Constitution
--:-- Alex Heath: They have to do what the government can and can't tell a private company to regulate with regards to speech
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But based on my read of a lot of these hearings and talking to lawmakers and just hearing what they have to say, I think we're a long way off from any kind of meaningful legislation that impacts Facebook
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, I imagine we'll be in touch, Alex
--:-- Alex Heath: In the metaverse
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Alex Heath, senior reporter at The Verge
--:-- Alex Heath: Will Reed, producer, Today Explained
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sean Ramos for him
--:-- Alex Heath: Metta World Peace
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you
