--:-- Noelle King: Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey are engaged. But President Trump thinks interest rates are too high, so we have to do that instead.
--:-- [Discussion continues, but it's unclear who is speaking, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: For months, the president has engaged in Fed-related criticism about the reserve chair, Jerome Powell. He's a terrible Fed chair. I was surprised he was appointed. Trump actually appointed him to that job, you may recall.
--:-- [Context suggests the host is discussing the president, so we'll label them as "President Trump" or "Trump"]
--:-- President Trump: There's been criticism about the Fed doing an expensive building reno. We'd like to see it get finished. And in many ways, it's too bad it started.
--:-- Host: And now Trump has trained his intermittent focus on Lisa Cook, a governor on the Fed's board. Trump says he's going to fire her for committing mortgage fraud.
--:-- President Trump: She's saying basically bring it. You've heard all that. But who is the Trump appointee who went digging for dirt on Cook?
--:-- [Context suggests the host is discussing the show's topic, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: That's ahead on Today Explained from Box. Support for this show comes from Macy's. Layering is an art form. All it takes is a bit of intention, style, and of course, the perfect cold weather staples.
--:-- [The host is discussing a sponsor, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: So find the perfect look for you with the help of Macy's Fall Fashion Guide, your one-stop shop for fall's latest trends and must-haves, curated by their experts. From leather to denim to cozy knits, find everything you need to piece together your new fall look.
--:-- [The host is discussing a sponsor, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: Explore the Macy's Fall Guide for yourself and shop in-store or online at Macy's.com.
--:-- [The host is discussing a sponsor, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: Support for this show comes from strawberry.me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Or are you stuck in one you've outgrown? Or never wanted in the first place?
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--:-- Host: Sure, you can probably list the reasons for staying. But are they actually just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from strawberry.me help you get unstuck.
--:-- [Context suggests the host is discussing a sponsor, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner. Go to strawberry.me slash unstuck to claim a special offer.
--:-- [The host is introducing a guest, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: This is Today Explained. I'm Noelle King with Matt Grossman. He's an economics reporter for The Wall Street Journal.
--:-- Matt Grossman: Lisa Cook is one of seven governors on the board of the Federal Reserve.
--:-- Noelle King: Thank you, Adam. And thank you to the Peterson Institute for inviting me to speak today. This is my first speech as a Fed governor, and I am delighted to deliver it here.
--:-- [Context suggests the guest is discussing Lisa Cook, so we'll label them as "Guest"]
--:-- Guest: She is an academic economist, which is a pretty common background for someone to have that position. She's only been on the board for two years, so she was just a little bit into the 14-year terms that the governor served.
--:-- Matt Grossman: And she was nominated to that job by Joe Biden, one of several people that during his presidency, he nominated and placed on the Fed's board.
--:-- Noelle King: Cook is from the South. She grew up in Georgia. She was from a middle-class family. She had a number of academic passions. She first studied philosophy in college, went on to get a PhD in economics from Berkeley and really spent most of her career in academia doing economic research.
--:-- [Context suggests the guest is discussing Lisa Cook, so we'll label them as "Guest"]
--:-- Guest: She was really interested in economic history, first internationally. She was very interested in economic history of the Soviet Union. I wrote my dissertation on the Russian banking system in the Tsarist and post-Soviet period.
--:-- Matt Grossman: As we said before, I lived there in 1995 and 1996 in Moscow.
--:-- Noelle King: And as her career went on, became really interested too in the economic history of black Americans in the U.S.
--:-- Matt Grossman: I looked at violence and economic activity. So what I looked at was African-American patentees to see what happened to them once riots, lynchings, and segregation laws were imposed on them.
--:-- Noelle King: And I compared them... So that's why if I'm a black inventor in another city, why would I ever invent anything if I thought the intellectual property was never going to be defended?
--:-- [Context suggests the guest is discussing Lisa Cook, so we'll label them as "Guest"]
--:-- Guest: What is the Trump administration? What is Trump accusing Lisa Cook of having done?
--:-- Matt Grossman: So this first surfaced from a guy named Bill Pulte, who is the head of the Federal Housing Finance Agency.
--:-- Noelle King: Pulte put on social media some documents that he says show that going back to 2021, before Cook was on the Fed board, that she had applied for two mortgages on two separate properties about two weeks apart.
--:-- Matt Grossman: And Pulte says that she said in those documents that each mortgage was for a primary residence.
--:-- Noelle King: I don't know what cause is, if that's not cause. I mean, this lady, I don't understand how she can be in charge of setting interest rates for our country.
--:-- Matt Grossman: And here she is potentially lying on her applications to get better interest rates.
--:-- Noelle King: Like, you know, we have a huge economy. Why are we letting somebody like this do this? She needs to explain herself.
--:-- Matt Grossman: But unfortunately, it's in black and white. And I don't think it's going away.
--:-- Noelle King: And to be honest, I think she needs to resign quickly.
--:-- Matt Grossman: Of course, the implication there is that you can't have both of these places be your primary residence.
--:-- Noelle King: One of them is in Michigan. The other is in Georgia.
--:-- Matt Grossman: So the allegation from Pulte is that this was mortgage fraud.
--:-- Noelle King: And this became very quickly a rationale for the Trump administration to move to fire Cook, or at least to try to.
--:-- Matt Grossman: Of course, long before any kind of criminal process has played out or even before charges have been filed or anything like that.
--:-- Noelle King: All right. So as a result of this, President Trump says, I'm going to fire Lisa Cook for cause.
--:-- Matt Grossman: Can he do that? It's a really good question.
--:-- Noelle King: This is an area of federal law that really has not been tested very much.
--:-- Matt Grossman: When Congress created federal agencies, it designated some officials as having really high standard for the president to remove them.
--:-- Noelle King: This is often specified as for cause protection, meaning that the president can't just fire you because he disagrees with your politics or he thinks you made a bad decision.
--:-- Matt Grossman: The official had to have done something criminal or something that really constitutes malfeasance
--:-- Noelle King: The president has never tried to fire someone from the Fed board before neither a Fed chair like Jerome Powell nor one of these governors who also is a high official within the Fed.
--:-- Matt Grossman: Not only that, it's very rare for a president to have tried to fire anybody with this kind of for-cause protection in any part of the federal government.
--:-- Noelle King: Of course, the way that these things usually become clear is that presidents try to do something, somebody challenges it in court, the court tries to reason out the law and figure out what it means.
--:-- Matt Grossman: We just haven't had much of that process here with this area of the law.
--:-- Noelle King: So it's really an open question as to which way this goes.
--:-- Matt Grossman: What is Lisa Cook saying about all of this?
--:-- Noelle King: We haven't heard a lot from Cook since the allegations came up.
--:-- Matt Grossman: She said that she's looking into what went on with her mortgage documents, first of all.
--:-- Noelle King: She hired a powerful Washington attorney and has said that she thinks that this firing was illegal, that President Trump does not have the power to dismiss her and that she's going to challenge it in a lawsuit.
--:-- Matt Grossman: She hasn't filed that lawsuit yet as of early Wednesday morning here, but I think we expect that to come soon.
--:-- Noelle King: Lisa Cook, of course, is a Black economist who has done a lot of research on how racism affects the economic status of Black Americans.
--:-- Matt Grossman: This is an administration that doesn't like that kind of talk, right? It views it under the category of like DEI.
--:-- Noelle King: This is not what America is all about.
--:-- Matt Grossman: Does Lisa Cook's background play any role in this attempt to oust her, as far as you can tell?
--:-- Noelle King: Yeah, that's a good question.
--:-- Matt Grossman: And I think it's really hard to say.
--:-- Noelle King: Of course, the Trump administration would say, you know, this is narrowly about this impropriety with her mortgage documents.
--:-- Matt Grossman: You know, for the most part, besides Fed Chair Jerome Powell, the Fed governors operate in obscurity.
--:-- Noelle King: I think most Americans wouldn't recognize them on the street or even know their names.
--:-- Matt Grossman: And Cook especially didn't really do a lot to stand out as a governor in her two years.
--:-- Noelle King: She didn't make as many speeches as some of her colleagues.
--:-- Matt Grossman: She tended to just kind of go with the flow in terms of voting on interest rates.
--:-- Noelle King: So I would sort of be surprised if Donald Trump knew her name or knew who Lisa Cook was before these allegations surfaced.
--:-- Matt Grossman: So if Lisa Cook does end up out of a job, where does that then leave the Fed?
--:-- Noelle King: Well, Trump already has a really significant opportunity to reshape the Fed.
--:-- Matt Grossman: Fed Chair Jerome Powell, who Trump nominated to that job during his first term, his time as the Fed's chair expires in May.
--:-- Noelle King: So that will give Trump the opportunity to pick a new face of the institution, a new person who really sets the tone for the whole central bank.
--:-- Matt Grossman: He also right now has the chance to nominate another Fed board member because a Biden appointee, Adriana Kugler, resigned from her job earlier in August, and Trump has already nominated a close advisor, Stephen Myron, to take that job.
--:-- Noelle King: His Senate confirmation hearing will probably start next week.
--:-- Matt Grossman: So if Cook is also out of a job, and again, we don't really know that yet, that would give Trump yet another opportunity to put someone who might be sympathetic with his policy views or someone who's sort of close to his administration, potentially onto the Fed board.
--:-- Noelle King: All right. So end game for President Trump is that we have a Trump Fed and the Trump Fed does what Trump wants.
--:-- Matt Grossman: And we are getting closer and closer to that.
--:-- Noelle King: What are the stakes for Americans here?
--:-- Matt Grossman: Yeah, I think economists and investors are really anxious about this and think that it could be a huge setback for the American economy, for American financial markets, if the Fed comes to be more under presidential control.
--:-- Noelle King: The reason that Congress set up the Fed to be independent was that when you're setting interest rates, you sometimes have to make unpopular decisions in order to keep the economy on the right long-run path.
--:-- Matt Grossman: A great example of this is the inflation that the economy saw in the 1970s, were. Inflation was running at really high levels for an extended period of time and had really become ingrained.
--:-- Noelle King: And a Fed chair who's now respected as one of the best to ever do it, Paul Volcker, had to raise interest rates to very uncomfortable levels in the early 1980s to put a stop to that.
--:-- Matt Grossman: And there was a recession that followed, but it was the decision that had to be made to get the inflation under control.
--:-- Noelle King: Of course, recessions are always terrible for the political party that's in power. Voters hate it. They blame the president.
--:-- Matt Grossman: And so no president ever wants to see that happen.
--:-- Noelle King: And so when you have a Fed that's independent of the political process, it can make those unpopular decisions when the economy needs it.
--:-- Matt Grossman: It could be a big setback if not only the economy loses that kind of referee, but also if investors, business people, and everyday Americans lose the confidence that that sort of hand of God is there to guide the economy the way it ought to go.
--:-- Noelle King: That was Matt Grossman of The Wall Street Journal.
--:-- Noelle King: Coming up, the henchman, the toady, the fan stooge, many an adjective has been used. But who is this Bill Pulte?
--:-- [The host is introducing a new topic, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: Support for the program today comes from Shopify. When you're creating your own business, you have to juggle a lot of roles, marketing, sales, outreach, design.
--:-- Noelle King: Shopify can simplify all of that. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world.
--:-- [The host is discussing a sponsor, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: And according to the company, 10% of all e-commerce in the U.S. from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started like maybe, I don't know, yours.
--:-- Noelle King: They say they have hundreds of ready-to-use templates to help design your brand's style, and they say they can make marketing easier by creating email and social media campaigns so you can connect with customers wherever they be scrolling.
--:-- [The host is discussing a sponsor, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: Shopify also has AI tools created for commerce, they say can help you create product descriptions, generate discount codes, and more.
--:-- Noelle King: You can turn your big business idea into reality with Shopify on your side. You can sign up for your per month trial and start selling today at shopify slash explained
--:-- [The host is discussing a sponsor, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: You can go to shopify slash explained
--:-- Noelle King: Does anyone have a cash register handy
--:-- [The host is discussing a sponsor, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: Support for today's show comes from Vanta. If your mind can be blown by compliance automation, let Vanta blow your mind, says Vanta.
--:-- Noelle King: Vanta is a trust management platform that says they help businesses automate security and compliance.
--:-- [The host is discussing a sponsor, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: Demonstrating trust to customers and prospects is critical to closing deals. I wouldn't know.
--:-- Noelle King: That's according to Vanta. But it can also be costly and complicated.
--:-- [The host is discussing a sponsor, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: Vanta says they help companies of all sizes, large, small, medium, get compliant fast and stay that way with industry-leading AI automation and that continuous monitoring you do know so well.
--:-- Noelle King: So whether you're a startup tackling your first SOC 2 or ISO 27001 or an enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta says their trust management platform makes it quicker, easier, and more scalable.
--:-- [The host is discussing a sponsor, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: Vanta also says they help you complete security questionnaires up to five times faster, which could help you win those bigger deals sooner.
--:-- Noelle King: You can visit Vanta.com slash Explained to sign up for a free demo today.
--:-- [The host is introducing a new topic, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: This is Today Explained. We're back. I'm Noelle King.
--:-- Noelle King: When the news broke that President Trump planned to fire Lisa Cook, this little-known Trump administration official started tweeting up a storm about Lisa Cook, about mortgage fraud, about Lisa Cook's homes on Zillow.
--:-- [The host is introducing a new topic, so we'll label them as "Host"]
--:-- Host: His name is Bill Pulte, and Vox's Andrew Prokop takes it from there.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Bill Pulte is the 37-year-old director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency.
--:-- Noelle King: And it's not an agency that tends to be at the forefront of the national conversation or the political discourse.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You probably would not be able to name any other previous director of that agency.
--:-- Noelle King: And yet he's been extremely successful at both inserting himself into political controversies.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: DEI is dead at Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
--:-- Noelle King: And in dredging up accusations and political attacks against enemies of President Trump.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And in President Trump's America, we're not going to have mortgage fraud.
--:-- Noelle King: It doesn't matter who you are, whether you're a Republican or a Democrat.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: If you do mortgage fraud, we're going to come after you.
--:-- Noelle King: What does the FHFA do?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So the FHFA is basically it oversees Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which are the government-backed companies that are crucial to the functioning of U.S. mortgage markets.
--:-- Noelle King: So it's kind of like a big, important regulatory job.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But that has not been Mr. Pulte's main focus since he was confirmed.
--:-- Noelle King: We're going to talk about his main focus in a second, but let me ask you where he comes from.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So Pulte is from a family that got very wealthy in the business of home building.
--:-- Noelle King: His grandfather, who's also named Bill, founded Pulte Group.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It was one of the largest home building companies in the U.S.
--:-- Noelle King: When he got out of college in the early 2010s, Bill founded a Michigan-based private equity fund that was focused on the housing industry.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And then in 2019, that is when Bill Pulte first started to go viral.
--:-- Noelle King: If at Real Donald Trump retweets this, I will give $30,000 to a veteran on Twitter.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He started offering to give various of his Twitter followers free money.
--:-- Noelle King: So I put out a tweet and I said, you know, if somebody can demonstrate to me how they'll use $10,000, I'll give away $10,000.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He would offer them hundreds of dollars, thousands, even tens of thousands.
--:-- Noelle King: He called this Twitter philanthropy, and it made a pretty big splash at the time.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He got a lot of media coverage in the mainstream media and digital media.
--:-- Noelle King: You're giving away a million dollars? I'm giving away a million dollars total on Twitter.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You're doing it electronically, Bill. Well done.
--:-- Noelle King: How does he come to the attention or bring himself to the attention of President Trump?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So Twitter philanthropy, the novelty kind of wore off.
--:-- Noelle King: And Pulte, during the Biden presidency, Pulte started looking for new areas to kind of make a splash and grow his influence.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And he started playing in the meme stock.
--:-- Noelle King: He started like holding in-person events.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You're missing, in my opinion, what people call the meme stock, which I call the retail investor.
--:-- Noelle King: This is a movement.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Just really trying to brand himself as a big, important finance influencer.
--:-- Noelle King: But again, a niche character, not very important or seemingly very influential.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But he gave some money to the right people.
--:-- Noelle King: He gave $500,000 to a pro-Trump super PAC.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He gave some money to Turning Point USA, which is the young conservatives group that was founded by Charlie Kirk, who's a close ally of Donald Trump Jr.
--:-- Noelle King: And so when Trump won again in 2024, suddenly Pulte was in the mix for a top administration appointment.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It kind of came out of nowhere.
--:-- Noelle King: He was talked about for housing and urban development secretary, but that didn't happen.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And he got FHFA director instead.
--:-- Noelle King: OK, so he gets an appointment. It's not a sexy one, but it is an appointment.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And like, weirdly enough, it allows him to look into Lisa Cook's mortgage.
--:-- Noelle King: And could he do that to anyone?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It is not yet clear exactly what the process was for Bill Pulte deciding to dig into Lisa Cook's mortgage.
--:-- Noelle King: But it is very unlikely a coincidence because it is playing out, again, amidst a broader campaign by Trump to gain control of the board of governors of the Federal Reserve.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Pulte has played a big part in that push.
--:-- Noelle King: He has also been attacking Jerome Powell, arguing for lower interest rates, which Trump wants.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And he's keeping these rates high for no reason.
--:-- Noelle King: I think the only reason he's doing it is because he's political contrary to what he says
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And unfortunately, it's hurting a lot of Americans
--:-- Noelle King: It's hurting a lot of people
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He's been publicly criticizing Powell urging him to resign and trying to drum up a pretext for that too
--:-- Noelle King: Jay Powell is the number one impediment from this economy becoming booming.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And I hear that he's going to resign. I hear he's considering of resigning.
--:-- Noelle King: He's been really arguing that the expensive renovation of the headquarters of the Fed is scandalous enough to merit Powell's firing for misconduct.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But Powell hasn't been going anywhere.
--:-- Noelle King: And then so if you're trying to get to a majority of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors to undercut him, Trump has already appointed two people.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He has another appointee pending in the Senate and he needs one more.
--:-- Noelle King: So that is probably why the Eye of Sauron became trained on Lisa Cook.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: OK, so Pulte is the guy when if you got somebody who needs some looking into, he can look into their mortgage.
--:-- Noelle King: But you said he's looked into the mortgage records of other people.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Who's he? Who are we talking about here?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Well, Cook is the third person that Pulte has apparently targeted.
--:-- Noelle King: He also went after two of the main Democrats who were involved in major investigations of Donald Trump, Adam Schiff from California, now a senator who was the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee in Trump's first term, and Letitia James, the New York state attorney general.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He referred both of them to the Justice Department for possible prosecution, arguing that their mortgage documents showed misstatements.
--:-- Noelle King: But it doesn't look good.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It looks to a lot of people like he is using his position as the director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency to basically scrutinize Trump's enemies, to dig into their personal financial history, their mortgage history, what they submitted in mortgage applications, and look for anything that could be said to be mortgage fraud.
--:-- Noelle King: And get them prosecuted and locked up.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He said that Fannie Mae's financial crimes division concluded that Adam Schiff, Mr. Schiff, has engaged in a sustained pattern of possible mortgage fraud.
--:-- Noelle King: And now there's a grand jury that is looking into Schiff for potential prosecution.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: This bogus latest attack, this bogus latest call for me to be prosecuted or to be jailed is not going to deter me.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm going to continue to hold Donald Trump accountable for his corruption, for his malfeasance, for the terrible harms he's doing to this country.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You can count on it.
--:-- Noelle King: And whether these cases will actually be filed remains to be seen.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: There are reasons to think they might not be if the case looks weak.
--:-- Noelle King: But Trump really does want to have his political enemies prosecuted.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He's wanted this for a very long time.
--:-- Noelle King: And so he and he's using this as leverage to try to both get retribution and to push aside critics or people who are inconvenient to him politically.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Unusually, the Justice Department prosecutor who is investigating Letitia James sent a letter saying that, you know, if you resigned as attorney general of New York, maybe this investigation would go away.
--:-- Noelle King: We take that as good faith.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So it seems transparently political.
--:-- Noelle King: The catch is that mortgage fraud is a pretty powerful avenue for prosecution.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: This has long been something we've seen in kind of complex federal prosecutors.
--:-- Noelle King: People who've watched The Wire may remember that this was referred to as the headshot when they were investigating State Senator Clay Davis in Baltimore.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I mean, this is some shameful shit.
--:-- Noelle King: Amid all of this, it's important to remember that this is not normal.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Administrations typically do not seek retribution in this way.
--:-- Noelle King: You've been covering these folks for now a full, how long has it been, Andrew?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Ten years? Eight months?
--:-- Noelle King: What are we seeing in terms of the Trump administration and its kind of quest to remove people who it doesn't like?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Well, they're very serious about it.
--:-- Noelle King: And, you know, this connects to the raid on John Bolton's home.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Trump has been a lot more successful at getting people who are less concerned about norms of restraint, about process, about not looking political.
--:-- Noelle King: And so we've really seen these norms and constraints more and more falling away in a way that is quite concerning.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And we're probably still at the very early stages of it.
--:-- Noelle King: And who knows how many of these will hold up.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: There are many steps in the process where charges like this could fall apart.
--:-- Noelle King: They could fail to get grand jury approval.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: They could be thrown out by a judge.
--:-- Noelle King: They could be rejected by a jury.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: They could be rejected after conviction on appeal.
--:-- Noelle King: We're still a long way from Trump actually managing to get his enemies locked up.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But what he is doing is weaponizing government more and more, including parts of government you wouldn't necessarily expect, like the Federal Housing Finance Agency, to dig up dirt on his enemies, to push aside critics, to seize more power for himself, and to threaten people with very serious consequences if they don't do what he wants.
--:-- Noelle King: Vox's Andrew Prokop, Rebecca Ibarra and Devin Schwartz produce today's show.
--:-- Noelle King: Amina El-Sadi edited.
--:-- Noelle King: Laura Bullard, senior researcher, fan stooge.
--:-- Noelle King: Patrick Boyd and Andrea Kristen's daughter are here.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm Noelle King.
--:-- Noelle King: It's Today Explained.
