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--:-- Noelle King: It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King. I'm starting today's show with not a warning exactly, but a note that we will be talking about despair and we'll be talking about a suicide.
--:-- Noelle King: In the spring of 2018, a man named David Buckle took his life at Sunrise in Brooklyn's Prospect Park. David had been a successful lawyer, but he left the law to become an environmental advocate. Climate change made David despondent, the sheer bigness of it. And he decided that the way to force the world to pay attention was to take his life in a public and very unusual way. Self-immolation. David set himself on fire.
--:-- Noelle King: Here's what we're going to do coming up. We're going to talk to David's husband about his despair. And we're going to talk to a climate activist who has also struggled with despair about how not to lose hope.
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--:-- Noelle King: Adio says it also allows you to create those email sequences, those real-time reports, those powerful automations, which they claim can help you build what matters most, your company. You can go to adio.com slash todayexplained to get 15% off your first year. That's A-T-T-I-O dot com slash todayexplained.
--:-- Noelle King: We all have moments where we could have done better, like cutting your own hair. Or forgetting sunscreen so now you look like a tomato. Could have done better. Same goes for where you invest. Level up and invest smarter with Schwab. Get market insights, education, and human help when you need it. Learn more at schwab.com.
--:-- Terry Calbert: Terry Calbert, you and David were together for 34 years, first as partners and then as husbands. Tell me what you can about David. What type of person was he?
--:-- Noelle King: Oh, he was, of course I'm biased, but he was an amazing individual who kind of his whole reason for being was to work to make the world a better place. He was very goal-oriented, to a fault. Once he decided he wanted to try to achieve something, he would study it, learn about it, become an expert, and then create a plan for what he wanted to achieve. And he pretty much achieved everything he set his mind to, but climate change, I think, was a much bigger issue.
--:-- Terry Calbert: So he wasn't, you know, that was not an issue he could solve on his own. In his normal day-to-day life, what were some of the things he did that might telegraph to me, this is a person who cares about the environment?
--:-- Noelle King: Just all sorts of ways. He, you know, in his private life, he was very frugal. If he ran water in the sink to get it to a certain temperature, he would collect it and then use it to water plants. So he would never waste any water. Or if he, when he took a shower, he would turn off the shower when he didn't need to have it on, he would soap up and then turn it off.
--:-- Terry Calbert: He was very frugal in terms of his clothing, very basic clothing, did not try to buy a lot, was not a consumer. And those were all, I think, for him, those were all choices about, you know, how to be in this world in a way that minimizes our footprint on it.
--:-- Terry Calbert: A decade before he died, David left the law, his job at Lambda Legal, and started working in community agriculture in Brooklyn. He became quite interested because one of the strategies that a lot of older people were really interested in and took to was the community gardens that also became the backbone of urban farming in cities around the U.S. and also in New York.
--:-- Terry Calbert: And he became really interested in that and discovered that there was a community farm within walking distance in Red Hook, Brooklyn, that was about a 20-minute, half an hour walk. And so he went over there and started volunteering and discovered that when they would clean the urban farm, when they would have refuse like that, they were just kind of throwing it away.
--:-- Terry Calbert: And he realized, you shouldn't do that. You should be composting it. So he then, because of that, developed what eventually became the largest composting site in the nation that was run entirely on renewable resources.
--:-- Terry Calbert: And that's what he was doing up until his death. Working with the earth that way gets you a lot less attention than being a successful lawyer, I'd imagine. Was he happy with the work he was doing?
--:-- Noelle King: Oh, he loved the work he was doing. And actually, you know, he was never really into the specific attention as a lawyer. That was never anything that drove him. Really what interested him was the kind of impact he was having on people's lives.
--:-- Terry Calbert: Did you and David ever talk about the impact of the work he was doing versus how big the problem was?
--:-- Noelle King: No, we never talked about that directly. I mean, we did talk. It's not that we didn't talk about climate change and global warming, of course. But really, what I think became such a tremendous barrier for him is he couldn't figure out where he would go next to continue to drive meaningful change.
--:-- Terry Calbert: And there was kind of this sense that everything seems so fragile with what he was trying to do. And I think that frustrated him deeply. Fragile in what way?
--:-- Noelle King: Well, I think you get tired of fighting, actually, as I think that's what was going on later in life. You know, he got tired of it. It's like, how long can you constantly be the person who's trying to focus people on what the problem is and where the solution lies?
--:-- Terry Calbert: And he would see it and know it, and was often the person who would speak out, but it often meant that it was uncomfortable for other people. And after a while, you get tired of doing that. You get tired of always being the person who's reminding folks that they can do more, and why aren't they?
--:-- Terry Calbert: Given the crisis we are in the midst of, I mean, in some ways, I would argue, kind of the fundamental ways in which our world is set up and the economy has to drastically change. We can't be a consumer economy anymore. The Earth will not support it anymore.
--:-- Terry Calbert: And yet we have, all of our systems are set up based upon consumerism. And we measure whether or not we're successful by how much stuff we make and sell. Anyway, I know that was part of David's frustration, is trying to figure that out.
--:-- Terry Calbert: Like, where do you go? Eventually, David did make a decision, and I want to ask you about that decision, and I understand that this is very difficult. Do you feel that you know why David took his life in the way that he did and when he did?
--:-- Noelle King: You know, I have to say, you know, no one knew. That he was going to do this. It was a complete shock to everybody. He had, you know, I found stuff afterwards that showed he'd been planning this for a couple of weeks.
--:-- Terry Calbert: So it wasn't something that was a spur of the moment. I think he decided it was something he needed to do. And I think, and I didn't understand the degree to which this was the case, but six months up to this, he was in a very kind of dark time.
--:-- Terry Calbert: I think he just was very, all I can say is frustrated. He couldn't figure out what he could do. I felt like there were other times in his life where we went through this and we figured something out.
--:-- Terry Calbert: Oddly enough like the month before he died it was like he it must have been once he decided to do this he just he found comfort in that because he didn't he oddly enough seemed better but I think there are a number of things going on for him he was getting older and I think it bothered him that he, you know, this was, his site ran on human labor.
--:-- Terry Calbert: And that was the primary way in which they were able to compost the tons and tons and tons of material every year. And that was getting harder for him. You know, and I think also in his mind, in addition to...
--:-- Terry Calbert: You know, he'd been... We had traveled to areas of the world where Buddhism was practiced, and he was aware of, of course, the Buddhist tradition of setting oneself on fire when you really wanted to bring attention to something.
--:-- Terry Calbert: And I suspect erroneously he kind of grabbed hold of that and thought, if I'm getting old and I can't affect the change I want to change and maybe I can do something in how I die that will cause people to wake up.
--:-- Terry Calbert: I mean, the irony is, you know, it's like he knew this but he, you know, all these things, you're in the news for 15 seconds and the news doesn't, they're not interested in really his message. It's the sensationalism of somebody who set themselves on fire.
--:-- Terry Calbert: And so, you know, I just think the whole thing's a complete waste and he lost his way. If he had been able to hang on, he would have had so much more impact.
--:-- Terry Calbert: But I think given his skills and talents, I'm not sure he could quite figure out how to, where that would be. And I think that probably was really not, I think, I know that was really hard for him.
--:-- Terry Calbert: Because his whole reason for living was, if I can continue to contribute to make this world a better place, great. If not, time for me to go.
--:-- Terry Calbert: I want to ask you lastly, I mean, I'm wondering if there's anything that you look around at today that you think might make David optimistic if he were still with us?
--:-- Noelle King: I would say, I think the places he would put his hope in would be the people who are individually really driving change in their lives and in their communities.
--:-- Terry Calbert: You know, he really believed at this point that change won't happen unless we individually decide what is it that we're going to do to participate and help drive the kind of change we need to save the earth.
--:-- Terry Calbert: And that no matter how small the act, every act becomes important. It's like the ripples on the pond. I think he really believed that if everyone started thinking this way, the change would happen.
--:-- Terry Calbert: And, you know, my fear about the news right now is that the news focuses on how terrible things are getting. And it's too bad it's not balanced by all the various efforts that are going on.
--:-- Terry Calbert: There are so many people now who are really trying to come up with solutions to reduce our carbon use, to change farming, to change kind of how we consume things. There's just so much going on.
--:-- Terry Calbert: And I think he would find great hope in that.
--:-- Noelle King: Coming up on today explained how to hope and to fight when despair is real set up and within seconds you will have your email and calendars synced. You'll see all your relationships in a fully fledged platform, they say, all enriched with that actionable data.
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--:-- Noelle King: That's A-T-T-I-O dot com slash todayexplained.
--:-- Noelle King: Let's be honest. Are you happy with your job? Like, really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that.
--:-- Noelle King: Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown, or one we never wanted in the first place. But still, we stick it out.
--:-- Noelle King: And we give reasons like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place. And maybe the most common one, isn't everyone kind of miserable at work?
--:-- Noelle King: But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry.me.
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--:-- Noelle King: That's strawberry.me slash unstuck.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm sorry, are we not being clear? We're trying to tell you that the entire planet is about to be destroyed.
--:-- Noelle King: It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King. David Buckle's suicide was very rare, but it was not a wholly isolated event.
--:-- Noelle King: This past April, a climate activist named Wyn Bruce self-immolated outside of the Supreme Court in what his friends and family told reporters was a protest against inaction on climate change.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: Tim DeChristopher remembers these stories. He remembers David's story well. Tim lives in Maine now, but a few days before David died, he had been walking in Prospect Park.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: It's something that had an impact not just on me, but with a lot of climate activists that I knew, and even a lot of relatively new climate activists that might have been going through kind of their first wave of struggling with despair and the kind of inevitable emotional and spiritual challenges of doing this work.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: It's something that rattled a lot of people. A lot of us feel that inadequacy of our efforts and that hopelessness about being able to turn things around and that frustration with society's lack of response.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And a lot of activists, including myself, struggle with suicidal thoughts.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: So yeah, it's definitely something that rippled through the community.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: You've struggled with suicidal thoughts?
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: Yeah, absolutely. Particularly for the past eight years, I've had a number of times where I was pretty close to taking my own life.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: I don't want to say it's an inevitable challenge of this work, because it's a deeply personal and complicated thing.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: Yeah. Some of that is probably related to my climate activism and, you know, what's going on in the world, but it's also, you know, related to my own shame and loneliness and things like that.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And I'm sure the same is probably true of folks like David Buckle and Wynne Bruce, you know, that did make it clear that their act of taking their own life was somehow connected to climate change.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: But I'm sure they had a lot of other stuff going on for each of them as well, which I think is always the case for folks who commit suicide, that it can be really complicated.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: I think it's something that unfortunately we don't talk about enough in the climate movement or in activist movements or in society in general.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: But, you know, I think it is, I think it's important to be more open, both about the despair that a lot of us feel about climate change and about the personal, emotional and spiritual struggles that a lot of us are facing.
--:-- Noelle King: I wanted to talk to Tim DeChristopher in part because he's made his own choices that edge into extreme territory, including one very dramatic act of civil disobedience that made him a household name for a few days back in 2009.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: The specific thing that was going on there was at the very end of the Bush administration, they were auctioning off oil and gas leases for lands right outside of Arches and Canyonlands National Parks.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: The next one would be partial number 884. The bidding was already underway when DeChristopher sat down, armed with a white laminated card with the number 70 in big black letters.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: He just watched it first, then raised his card sporadically, simply driving prices higher. And then he kept the card high, actually winning a dozen bids in a row worth nearly $2 million.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: You are aware that you could get in trouble, right?
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: Yeah. The Bureau of Land Management is not like, it's not a, it's a federal organization, yeah?
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: Yeah, and, you know, and I knew that I would likely go to prison for that.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And, you know, I kind of sat there once I saw the opportunity there in the auction room. I kind of sat there and said, okay, well, if I went to prison for a few years, could I live with that?
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And thought, yeah, that would suck, but I could live with it. But on the other hand, if I see this opportunity to potentially make a difference and don't take it, and 20, 30 years down the road as the climate crisis continues to unfold, and I meeting young people that have been born into a broken world and I knew that I had a chance to potentially do something about it to reduce their suffering and I didn't take it because I was afraid of the consequences.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: Could I live with that? And that's what I ultimately decided that, you know, no, I couldn't live with that.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And it was that long-term view that really motivated me to action.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: So I started just to drive up the prices and would get out before I won anything. And then finally realized that I had to actually keep these parcels out of the hands of oil companies.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And so I started bidding to win. And I won 14 parcels in a row before they finally stopped the auction and took me out and questioned me about what I was doing.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And I made it very clear that this was an act of civil disobedience to stand in the way of this auction because it was a crime against the American people and a threat to my future.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And so that kind of put things into chaos. That was about exactly a month before Obama took office.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And so it created enough confusion for long enough that things were still up in the air when he came into office.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And the first act of his new Secretary of the Interior, Ken Salazar, was to invalidate that auction and acknowledge that they didn't follow their own rules in the first place.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: But of course, they still continued to prosecute me.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: I was sentenced to two years in prison, served 21 months.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: Then I got accepted to Harvard Divinity School while I was still incarcerated.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And so I went there shortly after I was released and have done a lot of different things since then.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: Spent some time as a hospital chaplain, worked as a massage therapist for a few years, and am now a farmer.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And I also started an organization called the Climate Disobedience Center and work with lots of other folks that are engaging in civil disobedience to defend a livable future.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: Would you call what you did in your 20s extreme?
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: Is there any part of you right now that looks at your 20-something self and says, oh, kid, you should have done that differently?
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: In terms of disrupting the auction and other civil disobedience that I've taken, you know, I think that was very much in alignment with what was necessary and actually came out of kind of my most grounded moments.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: It's not the place that I'm at anymore, taking that level of risk or playing that role in the movement.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: I think I am in a different place right now. But, you know, I'm glad that I took those actions when I did.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: I want to take us back to David Buckle and something that his husband told us. He said David got tired.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And so I wonder, as you consider his actions in the grand scheme of actions that people have taken to draw attention to what is going on in the world, is there anything that gives you hope?
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: You know, that sense of being tired, particularly being tired of playing a certain role, is something that I can really resonate with.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And that's something that was very true for me when I went through a really big period of depression and was pretty suicidal.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: But part of what got me through that was realizing that there's still lots of opportunities to reinvent myself and to engage with the world in different ways, to step outside of that role.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And, you know, that's where I pulled back from being a pretty much a full time activist and engaged in lots of other different kinds of work.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: Like as a farmer, you know, I spent yesterday planting potatoes and weeding the garlic.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And like none of that is revolutionary. None of that is, you know, the job that climate activists assign to themselves of changing everything, changing our whole energy system and transportation system and agricultural system and political system and economic system.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: You know, that's an incredible burden that we put on ourselves.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: The thing that perhaps not gives me hope, but gives me faith in and commitment to stick around is knowing that I am a part of this web of life that is far bigger and more complex than I could ever possibly understand.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And that, you know, I'm 40 years old now and still have plenty of time left.
--:-- Tim DeChristopher: And with the way that our actions ripple out through others and through time exponentially, each day that we're here holds infinite potential for long-term impact in ways that we can't possibly understand.
--:-- Noelle King: Tim DeChristopher, he's a farmer these days.
--:-- Noelle King: If you or someone you know is having thoughts about suicide, there are resources out there.
--:-- Noelle King: To reach the suicide and crisis hotline in the United States, call 988.
--:-- Noelle King: Today's show was produced by Hadi Muagdi and edited by Matthew Collette.
--:-- Noelle King: It was fact-checked by Laura Bullard and engineered by Paul Mounsey with an assist from Christian Ayala.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained.
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