--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. Fall is here. Might be time to find some nice new pieces you can wear again and again.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: With Saks Fifth Avenue, it can be a breeze to shop for your personal style, like maybe a relaxed Prada blazer or Gucci loafers that are great for both work and the weekend.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is very Sean. This is very Sean-coated. Gucci loafers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Saks says Saks makes shopping feel totally customized to you, whether that's from an in-store stylist or a visit to Saks.com, where they can show you just what you want to see.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They say they'll even let you know when arrivals from your favorite designers are in or when something you've been eyeing is back in stock.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find inspiration for your personal style every day at Saks Fifth Avenue.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Not all journalism is the same. Take The Guardian. Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe. Expose corruption wherever we find it. and give first perspective on everything from wellness and soccer to culture, the climate, and more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Read, watch, and listen to The Guardian for free at theguardian.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can get into a match, and you can find guns, and you try to eliminate people, and whenever all the people get eliminated, you win.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When you enter a match, the first thing you do is you are in this bus in the air. You and 60 to 100 people jump out of a flying object onto an island of sorts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's constantly getting smaller, and players don't start with any gear or weapons or anything like that. They have to scavenge.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Guns scattered around the map, and you have to gather materials to build defenses and structures.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you fight with guns and other weapons. There are some creatures and stuff, but it's mostly just shooting people and hiding until the last person.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's basically like a sport for people like me who don't like moving anything other than their hands and mouths.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My character looks like a little hot dog man with sunglasses. I did customize it. I bought him in the store.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So my character was not customized until my 10-year-old cousin sent me a skin that has a burger head.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, what is a skin? It's a character. It's what your character looks like. It's a skin.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's what it's called. You can buy characters in the item shop and there's like Batman, Flash, or Iron Man.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: creatures there's different astronauts there's fish bananas like literally anything so it's not graphic it's so cartoonish that you can do the renegade while shooting someone with a rocket launcher
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: what's a renegade some TikTok dance that people apparently like so you can shoot people and dance not at the same time but yes yo nice comms bro hot comms good work oh you killed Turner dude
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why is Fortnite fun? There's really no reason I should like this game as much as I do.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm not a violent person. I think because it's competitive and short.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You spend probably 40 to 70% of every game not fighting anyone, which gives you a lot of time to sort of socialize in the game and with whoever you're playing with.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My nephews play Fortnite, and they're the main reason that I started playing Fortnite.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: and while I don't have too many other friends who play it, I've convinced my sister and my girlfriend to start playing it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: During the pandemic, when I couldn't see my actual friends, I communicated with a few of my friends over Fortnite and played with them using the game's in-game voice chatting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I feel like it also triggers your adrenaline in a way. Like, I get sweaty and excited and angry in a way that I don't otherwise.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, I don't know. There's probably something chemical happening, too.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How much do you love Fortnite? A billion.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Should everyone play? I think at this point almost everyone has.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Uh, yeah, everyone should play Fortnite because it's free, so why not?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is it for kids or adults? Well, it's designed for kids, but a lot of adults play it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do a lot of adults play? Well, you play it and all your friends play it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So you think it's not just for kids? Well... I shouldn't feel shame for playing it with all my other man friends?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: No, even though I tease you about it. I don't think there's any more things I need to tell you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Can you play Fortnite and I can friend you? I am not very good at games.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I can teach you. Do you have a Switch?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I do have a Switch. You can download on there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, then I will do that, and we should be Fortnite friends, and you can teach me how to play.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Fortnite is played by hundreds of millions of people around the globe.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can get it on just about any platform, Xbox, PC, PlayStation, Nintendo Switch.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But as of late August, you cannot get Fortnite on your iPhone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's because Epic Games, the maker of Fortnite, is in an epic legal battle right now with Apple.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's one of the biggest video games in the world versus one of the biggest tech companies in the world.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And even if you don't play the game, the fight could change your life.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, this is a fight in some ways about the future of your phone and how and what you can buy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tim Higgins does not play Fortnite, but he does report on technology companies like Epic and Apple for The Wall Street Journal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Epic would like to have the freedom to sell directly to you, whereas Apple wants to control that experience for you on your iPhone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And people are paying attention because Epic's Fortnite is much more than a video game, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, definitely. It's definitely a cultural force.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Fortnite is taking center stage tonight in New York City.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Gamers from around the country gathering in Queens for a massive Fortnite competition.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: $30 million is what's on the line at the first ever Fortnite World Cup that is underway at Arthur Ashe Stadium in Queens, New York.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Good luck getting in because as of Friday afternoon, tickets were going fast.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thousands in attendance here, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, expected to tune in online.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, on one hand, this is a shooter game. But beyond that it is something more
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It has become a place where people come to hang out
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And beyond the game there are movies and concerts
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Travis Scott performance in Fortnite was groundbreaking
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: During Astronomical, a 10-story Travis Scott danced across Fortnite Island, igniting himself to reveal his robot interior.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The audience was flossing hard in the digital mosh pit.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I get those goosebumps every time
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, when you're not around
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's all part of this idea that the founder of Epic, Tim Sweeney, sees of something called the metaverse, where you would be in this digital world and that would be kind of your extension of your life.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Nobody knows exactly what the metaverse will be, but the metaverse is going to be some sort of real-time 3D social medium where instead of sending messages and pictures to each other asynchronously, you're together with them in a virtual world and interacting and having fun experiences, which might span anything from purely games to purely social experiences.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's really almost out of science fiction, like Ready Player One.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is kind of his dream and kind of the way he wants to take the company.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tell me a bit more about Tim Sweeney because he's an important figure here, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tim Sweeney founded the company in 1991 in his parents' basement.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He was a computer programmer. These are early days of the video game kind of movement.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It went from PCs and eventually became more dependent on consoles.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And his smartphones became part of everyday life, started to pivot the company in some ways into that mobile gaming system as well.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it's a very large company.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's made him a billionaire.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But he is not like all of the other tech giants.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He has based his company in North Carolina, far from Silicon Valley, in part because you escape that kind of Silicon Valley bubble.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He is not flashy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like he's not scheduled to host Saturday Night Live this week or whatever?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, he's known for his cargo pants.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He likes to eat fried chicken.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, he's soft-spoken and kind of down-to-earth kind of computer programmer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But what we have learned about him through this case is that he is also a sophisticated corporate battler, that he was behind a very sophisticated plan to try to disrupt Apple's business and to declare war on it and what just ended up in this courtroom drama that's playing out in Oakland, California right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, so how does he go from like a tech guy who's got a successful video game to like a tech guy who's taking on one of the biggest tech companies in the world?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, it gets back to, you know, the fundamentals of Fortnite.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Fortnite, you can play it for free.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the company doesn't make any money off that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Where they're making their money is selling these special costumes, if you will, for their players that you can customize.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, this is kind of lucrative for them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But the key is to get as many players into the system to do that, because only a small percentage of people actually spend money on this kind of thing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so one of the insights that the company had was they wanted this game to play across as many consoles and devices as possible so that, let's say you're playing on a PlayStation, but I'm your friend and I own an iPhone, we could do that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We could be in the same game together, but we're playing with whatever device we have.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The hardware was not what was supreme here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The idea was it was a digital world that we could live in together.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This was a big change, and it took a lot of negotiations by Epic and Tim Sweeney to get that to happen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that helped the company grow its user base in a very dramatic way.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It gave them hundreds of millions of users that helped them generate billions of dollars.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So cross-play, playing the game across platforms from PlayStation to your iPhone, is huge for Fortnite.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How do we go from there to this trial?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, so once Epic gets cross-play, the business is doing great. It's making a lot of money. Their user base is growing dramatically.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Apple was very excited to have Fortnite on the iOS system that's the mobile operating system that runs on your iPhone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They were involved in marketing and trying to help Epic, and it was doing well for them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But you know, video games have ups and downs. Uh, think of it kind of like a movie star who's hot for a moment and then maybe not so hot like after Tom Cruise jumped on that couch that kind of thing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Something happened to you. Something happened to you. I'm in love.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, exactly.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so one of the things we've learned from the court records is that Fortnite revenue fell dramatically in 2019 from 2018.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It fell almost 50%.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The users were just – weren't there the way they had been, and there was some concern about that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so this is the kind of position the company was in, and they're thinking about what's next for Fortnite.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And you get back to this idea of the metaverse and Tim Sweeney's idea of all of these things that can occur in that metaverse.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the concern that Epic has said that they had was some of the finances of the way the App Store works in Apple and in the Google App Store as well is that they take 30% of the revenue that's generated.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they felt like that just wasn't fair.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, they also had some concerns about Apple's rules that prohibited them from creating their own app store.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They didn't want to use Apple's app store. They wanted to create their own app store.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They want to use their own payment system.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we start to see through the court records that Epic starts to think about ways that it can maybe attack this walled garden that Apple has around its products.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: and by kind of springtime of 2020, the company is kind of focused on something it calls Project Liberty and this is a plan they put together, pulling up to 200 employees to work on it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They hired some of the best antitrust lawyers in the nation, spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on public relations experts to try to figure out how they could kind of launch their attack
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What was their plan?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The idea centered around an update to the Fortnite game through the Apple App Store, and that would secretly put in place Epic's own payment system to circumvent Apple's payment system.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow. And they knew this was potentially risky.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As soon as Apple found it, it was very likely they would be kicked off.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they were concerned that maybe they'd even get sued to be made an example of.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because Apple is very protective of its rules for how it controls App Store.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And these are big rules that they were going to be breaking.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so the concern was that they would then perhaps look bad in the court of public opinion.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So they developed a strategy on how to talk about it, which is this idea that they're fighting this kind of monopoly situation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Apple is locked down and crippled the ecosystem by imposing an absolute monopoly on this distribution of software, on monetization of software.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they're preventing entire categories of businesses and applications from being developed in their ecosystem.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, they're working on this plan.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They go to Tim Cook, who's the CEO of Apple.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tim Sweeney sends him an email and basically says, hey, can we create our own store?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Apple refuses him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And, you know, and then he's not happy about that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And by early August, they launch their attack and they flip the switch.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this payment system is launched.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It comes along with some messaging that you could purchase the currency inside of Fortnite.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It would be cheaper if you use this system, you know, go outside of Apple's system and use it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that really also is not something that Apple was very excited about.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Apple very quickly kicked Fortnite off of the App Store.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This morning, Fortnite is gone from the Apple App Store.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Overnight, Fortnite fans reacting, getting hashtag free Fortnite trending.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: you know, essentially Fortnite was booted from the iPhone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, as a Tim, how do you feel about this Tim on Tim violence?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, it's very dramatic.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You don't see this kind of thing very often in big business.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And, you know, part of it is Tim Sweeney feels very passionate about this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's talked publicly in the past about, you know, his concerns about the app store in the way that these platforms have control over his business and how unfair he thinks it is.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then on the other hand, you have Tim Cook and Apple who feel like they have built this walled garden that has been very successful and has benefited a lot of developers and that people should follow their rules.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so they don't want to back down and neither does Epic.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So everyone lawyers up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, so anticipating that Apple was going to kick them off, Epic was ready with a legal challenge.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They filed a lawsuit very quickly in the federal court to claim that Apple was acting like an illegal monopoly and launched a public relations campaign, including a video that tried to satire the famous 1984 Apple TV commercial that portrayed Apple as the underdog against IBM, the giant IBM back a generation ago.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: in kind of the Big Brother motif.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In exchange, we have taken our tribute, our profits, our control.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This power is ours and ours alone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We shall prevail.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: At this time, Apple is the bad guy and Epic is the underdog trying to fight to free Fortnite.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That launches this fight that went immediately to the courts and has been fast-tracked in the trial before a federal judge in Oakland began this week.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We go to trial in a minute on Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You swipe your card and you get one cent on the hundred dollars.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But with your rent, frequently, you just pay month after month.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Not anymore, says Built Rewards.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Built Rewards says it lets you earn points on your rent.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: By paying rent through Bilt, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, perhaps a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and so much more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Your home isn't just where you sleep.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's your community.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Bilt wants you to go out and do things in the community.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can eat at your favorite local restaurants, then earn more points.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can enjoy exclusive experiences just for Bilt members every month.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When you're ready to travel, they say Bilt points can be converted to miles or hotel points all around the world.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood wherever you call home by joining Bilt.com slash Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Or what that clunking sound from your dryer is?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You just have to hire one.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews all on the app.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Download today.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, Tim, before the break, you talked about how Tim Sweeney and Epic Games decided to sue Apple.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What exactly is their case here?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This case will come down to a key question.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What is the definition of a market?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What Epic is trying to argue is that Apple has created a monopoly in the way it allows the distribution of apps onto the iPhone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can only go through the Apple App Store to put what are called native apps onto iPhones
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that they feel is improper
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then on top of that they unhappy that Apple has created a loan payment system
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You have to use Apple's payment system and give them a 30% take.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All of us, all million of us, developers, large and small, need to resist and refuse to continue cooperating with these platforms, which, you know, intermediate and obstruct us and are basically holding our business hostages to larger and larger ransom over time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Apple denies all of that, of course.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They say that they're not anywhere close to a monopoly, and they point to the idea that you could buy Fortnite on a host of different platforms, whether it was the PlayStation or Xbox or Android devices, that there is no shortage of ways to get Fortnite.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if Epic was unhappy with the terms of Apple's contract, that they could take that and go someplace else.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On top of that, they say that the price that they charge is fair because it provides a safe, secure, reliable environment for these developers and for their customers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We review every app in the App Store to make sure standards for privacy, safety, security, and performance.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And each week we review about 100,000 submissions and we reject about 40% of them because they don't meet those standards.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that it's in line with what other platforms charge developers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They point to Sony and Nintendo and you go down the list and it's largely 30%.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so they feel like it's more in line with the market.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so you've got this question, a fundamental question of what a market is.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You mentioned that Epic's Tim Sweeney is kind of this like anti-Silicon Valley, North Carolina cargo shorts, fried chicken eating kind of guy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tim Cook and Apple are kind of the opposite.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this trial's being held in Oakland, California.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Does that benefit Apple?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, it's interesting because the judge hearing this case has a history of hearing complaints about Apple.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She oversaw a trial a number of years ago that was a jury trial.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this trial is a bench trial.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So she will be the decider.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: and she has in some pre-trial hearings had some comments that suggest that she thinks some of Epic's case will be hard for them to prove yet she notes that the area that they are in here in California is accustomed to dealing with novel legal questions because of the fast-moving tech world
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: so she's left that open that maybe there's something new here that Epic can prove.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the trial kicked off on Monday.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're speaking late Wednesday.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How has the trial gone so far?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, it's still early days.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The trial is expected to go most of May.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And just the fact that we got to trial into the courtroom on Monday after the lawsuit was filed less than a year ago in August is rather remarkable.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's really fast.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so, you know, Monday kicks off and
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And some of the big excitement going into it was we're going to hear Tim Sweeney on the stand essentially making his case for why he has brought Project Liberty out to the world.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he was there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In some ways, I've talked to some observers who felt he did a good job in the sense that he sounded down to earth and genuine.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He wasn't putting on a show, these sorts of things.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yet I have also talked to observers who feel that Apple was probably pretty happy with his performance and that he maybe did not make the strongest case for himself from the stand.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And in some ways, it might not matter because the judge will be deciding the merits of the legal case, and that really gets back to that issue of the markets.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And in these big antitrust cases, a lot of times it comes down to the company records, the emails between the executives that give indications of their thinking at the time of when they're doing things.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so we still have a lot of ways to go.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're also expecting Tim Cook to take the stand later in the trial.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Does this feel like David and Goliath or is it more like two Goliaths or is it like, you know, Goliath and his, you know, not nearly as rich friend Greg, who's like also a pretty big dude himself?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's definitely a clash of titans.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The thing that's very unique here is that Tim Sweeney has the backbone and the pocketbook to fund this fight.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Lots of people have made these kinds of claims in private or less privately, but they haven't been able to take on Apple directly.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There is the very real threat of maybe Fortnite gets kicked off Apple's App Store forever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so it takes a lot of courage to do what Tim Sweeney has done.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tim Higgins is a reporter at the Wall Street Journal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Big thanks to everyone who contributed their voices to this episode.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That is Landon, Austin, Ben, Louie, Sienna, Ed, Reed, Noah, and Harper.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And thanks to Taylor Macon, Peter Kafka, the big boss Rick Ross, and a theme, the dream Shapiro, for speaking to their friends from the Fortnite community for us.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Ramos from the Today Explained team includes Will Reed, Victoria Chamberlain, Halima Shah, Miles Bryan, Emily Sen, Muj Zadeh, and Amina Alsadi, who's our supervising producer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Extra, extra read all about it help from Paul Mounsey this week.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Facts checked by Laura Bullard.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Music by Breakmaster Cylinder and Noam Master Hassenfeld.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Liz Kelly Nelson is the veep of audio at Vox and Jillian Weinberger is the deputy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find us on Twitter.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm at Ramos Vroom.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The show's at today underscore explained.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards.
--:-- Tim Higgins: These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program.
--:-- Tim Higgins: You swipe your card and you get one cent on the hundred dollars.
--:-- Tim Higgins: But with your rent, frequently, you just pay month after month.
--:-- Tim Higgins: You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Not anymore, says Built Rewards.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Built Rewards says it lets you earn points on your rent.
--:-- Tim Higgins: By paying rent through Bilt, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, perhaps a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and so much more.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Your home isn't just where you sleep.
--:-- Tim Higgins: It's your community.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And Bilt wants you to go out and do things in the community.
--:-- Tim Higgins: You can eat at your favorite local restaurants, then earn more points.
--:-- Tim Higgins: You can get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios.
--:-- Tim Higgins: You can enjoy exclusive experiences just for Bilt members every month.
--:-- Tim Higgins: When you're ready to travel, they say Bilt points can be converted to miles or hotel points all around the world.
--:-- Tim Higgins: You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood wherever you call home by joining Bilt.com slash Explained.
--:-- Tim Higgins: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash Explained.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start?
--:-- Tim Higgins: Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin?
--:-- Tim Higgins: Or what that clunking sound from your dryer is?
--:-- Tim Higgins: With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro.
--:-- Tim Higgins: You just have to hire one.
--:-- Tim Higgins: You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews all on the app.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Download today.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Okay, Tim, before the break, you talked about how Tim Sweeney and Epic Games decided to sue Apple.
--:-- Tim Higgins: What exactly is their case here?
--:-- Tim Higgins: This case will come down to a key question.
--:-- Tim Higgins: What is the definition of a market?
--:-- Tim Higgins: What Epic is trying to argue is that Apple has created a monopoly in the way it allows the distribution of apps onto the iPhone.
--:-- Tim Higgins: You can only go through the Apple App Store to put what are called native apps onto iPhones
--:-- Tim Higgins: And that they feel is improper
--:-- Tim Higgins: And then on top of that they unhappy that Apple has created a loan payment system
--:-- Tim Higgins: You have to use Apple's payment system and give them a 30% take.
--:-- Tim Higgins: All of us, all million of us, developers, large and small, need to resist and refuse to continue cooperating with these platforms, which, you know, intermediate and obstruct us and are basically holding our business hostages to larger and larger ransom over time.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Apple denies all of that, of course.
--:-- Tim Higgins: They say that they're not anywhere close to a monopoly, and they point to the idea that you could buy Fortnite on a host of different platforms, whether it was the PlayStation or Xbox or Android devices, that there is no shortage of ways to get Fortnite.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And if Epic was unhappy with the terms of Apple's contract, that they could take that and go someplace else.
--:-- Tim Higgins: On top of that, they say that the price that they charge is fair because it provides a safe, secure, reliable environment for these developers and for their customers.
--:-- Tim Higgins: We review every app in the App Store to make sure standards for privacy, safety, security, and performance.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And each week we review about 100,000 submissions and we reject about 40% of them because they don't meet those standards.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And that it's in line with what other platforms charge developers.
--:-- Tim Higgins: They point to Sony and Nintendo and you go down the list and it's largely 30%.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And so they feel like it's more in line with the market.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And so you've got this question, a fundamental question of what a market is.
--:-- Tim Higgins: You mentioned that Epic's Tim Sweeney is kind of this like anti-Silicon Valley, North Carolina cargo shorts, fried chicken eating kind of guy.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Tim Cook and Apple are kind of the opposite.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And this trial's being held in Oakland, California.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Does that benefit Apple?
--:-- Tim Higgins: Well, it's interesting because the judge hearing this case has a history of hearing complaints about Apple.
--:-- Tim Higgins: She oversaw a trial a number of years ago that was a jury trial.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And this trial is a bench trial.
--:-- Tim Higgins: So she will be the decider.
--:-- Tim Higgins: and she has in some pre-trial hearings had some comments that suggest that she thinks some of Epic's case will be hard for them to prove yet she notes that the area that they are in here in California is accustomed to dealing with novel legal questions because of the fast-moving tech world
--:-- Tim Higgins: so she's left that open that maybe there's something new here that Epic can prove.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And the trial kicked off on Monday.
--:-- Tim Higgins: We're speaking late Wednesday.
--:-- Tim Higgins: How has the trial gone so far?
--:-- Tim Higgins: Well, it's still early days.
--:-- Tim Higgins: The trial is expected to go most of May.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And just the fact that we got to trial into the courtroom on Monday after the lawsuit was filed less than a year ago in August is rather remarkable.
--:-- Tim Higgins: That's really fast.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And so, you know, Monday kicks off and
--:-- Tim Higgins: And some of the big excitement going into it was we're going to hear Tim Sweeney on the stand essentially making his case for why he has brought Project Liberty out to the world.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And he was there.
--:-- Tim Higgins: In some ways, I've talked to some observers who felt he did a good job in the sense that he sounded down to earth and genuine.
--:-- Tim Higgins: He wasn't putting on a show, these sorts of things.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Yet I have also talked to observers who feel that Apple was probably pretty happy with his performance and that he maybe did not make the strongest case for himself from the stand.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And in some ways, it might not matter because the judge will be deciding the merits of the legal case, and that really gets back to that issue of the markets.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And in these big antitrust cases, a lot of times it comes down to the company records, the emails between the executives that give indications of their thinking at the time of when they're doing things.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And so we still have a lot of ways to go.
--:-- Tim Higgins: We're also expecting Tim Cook to take the stand later in the trial.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Does this feel like David and Goliath or is it more like two Goliaths or is it like, you know
