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--:-- Noel King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noel King.
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--:-- Noel King: The Trump administration is not happy with their deportation numbers. They're turning to more extreme strategies to hit 1 million by year's end.
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--:-- Noel King: President Trump met with the leaders of five African nations at the White House yesterday. One oops got all the attention when Trump paid Liberia's president a compliment.
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--:-- Noel King: Well, thank you. It's such good English. Such beautiful. Where did you learn to speak so beautifully? English is Liberia's official language. Were you educated where? Yes, sir. In Liberia? Yes, sir. Well, that's very interesting.
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--:-- Noel King: Anyway, you know what happened behind closed doors right before that meeting? President Trump pushed those African leaders to accept people who are being deported from the U.S. That's according to a Wall Street Journal exclusive.
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--:-- Noel King: The Trump administration is going increasingly ham on sending people who entered the U.S. illegally to countries that they are not from.
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--:-- Noel King: Camilo Montoya-Galvez is a reporter who covers immigration and border policy for CBS News.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: The administration has dramatically expanded who is actually eligible to be arrested and deported in the first place.
--:-- Noel King: What strategies are they using at this point?
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: The administration is also increasing the number of deportation arrangements with different countries, wanting to have those countries take back their citizens who are in the country illegally.
--:-- Noel King: But it is also importantly asking different countries across the world to take back deportees who are not their own citizens.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: And it has already convinced countries in the region like El Salvador, but also Panama, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Honduras, and others to take back people who are not from those countries.
--:-- Noel King: It has secured some limited agreement with countries like South Sudan, Kosovo, and Europe, and others, including Rwanda, to have the U.S. deport people who are not from those countries.
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--:-- Noel King: I want to ask you about South Sudan, because there was a story last week that I think flew a little bit under the radar in which some men were actually sent from the U.S. to South Sudan.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: Yes. So for the past few weeks, the Trump administration has been trying to deport a group of eight men with serious criminal records to South Sudan.
--:-- Noel King: But those efforts had been blocked by a federal judge in Boston who had found that these detainees needed to, at the very least, be screened and interviewed by a U.S. asylum officer before being deported to South Sudan.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: The Trump administration is now fighting back after a judge ruled the administration broke the law by deporting eight undocumented migrants.
--:-- Noel King: The White House attempting to send these men from various countries to the nation of South Sudan.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: A federal judge in Massachusetts said Wednesday the Trump administration's deportation of eight migrants unquestionably violates a court order blocking deportations to third countries without allowing detainees to contest their removal.
--:-- Noel King: And the reason behind that is because of course this is the youngest country in the world and it is one plagued by political instability and armed conflict.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: The US State Department actually warned Americans not to visit this country because of the threat of being kidnapped or otherwise harmed.
--:-- Noel King: And so advocates for immigrants were really concerned that these men could be victimized or otherwise harmed in South Sudan if deported there.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: The U.S. decided to send them to an American military base in Djibouti to undergo that screening.
--:-- Noel King: And they were stuck there for weeks until the Supreme Court just a few weeks ago allowed the administration to carry out these third country deportations with a very limited degree of due process and notice.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: And then later clarified that that order also allowed the administration to deport these men to South Sudan.
--:-- Noel King: A significant win for the Trump administration here the high court allowing them to resume deporting migrants to countries other than their homeland and we're talking about some turmoil-ridden countries like South Sudan.
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--:-- Noel King: Yeah, the reaction here, especially the ordinary South Sudanese people, are actually concerned because they say these are criminals.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: And if America, a great nation, is actually fearing them to stay in the U.S., why would they be brought here?
--:-- Noel King: And it is really important to remind everyone, obviously, that the men we're talking about, Noel, don't hail from South Sudan.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: They are from countries like Cuba, Myanmar, Mexico, and other countries in Latin America and Asia, not from South Sudan.
--:-- Noel King: Do we know what happens to the men when they get there?
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: It is really unclear.
--:-- Noel King: The U.S. has said that South Sudan is offering them a temporary immigration status so they can live in that African country for a certain period of time that will be dictated by officials there.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: The U.S. said that it has not asked South Sudan to detain them.
--:-- Noel King: But the concern among advocates is that the human rights record of this country is not a very good one.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: And so they have concerns about what could happen to these men.
--:-- Noel King: Of course, South Sudan knows about their criminal histories, which are very serious in nature.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: Some of their convictions include convictions for homicide and sexual assault.
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--:-- Noel King: The problem here is that these agreements have been very secretive in scope.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: OK, so this is a bit of a patchwork mess.
--:-- Noel King: You do have some countries potentially saying we will take people, but we won't take people with serious criminal records.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: What other countries are we talking about here? Is there like a list somewhere?
--:-- Noel King: Well, we know, for example, that the U.S. under the Trump administration has already deported third country migrants to places like Costa Rica and Panama.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: Which received deportees from Africa and Asia earlier in the second Trump administration.
--:-- Noel King: The U.S. began flying hundreds of migrants, mostly from Asian, Middle Eastern and African countries to Panama.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: Just last night, these folks who've been deported from the United States to Panama were transported to a camp near the Darien jungle.
--:-- Noel King: And there's about 100 of them, including eight children, who are now at that jungle camp.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: The country of Kosovo in Europe has agreed to take 50 people, which is, again, a limited number.
--:-- Noel King: But it is still significant because it is the first country in that continent in Europe to agree publicly at least to accept third country nationals under the Trump administration.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: The U.S. has cut a deal to send a small number of migrant deportees to the European nation of Kosovo.
--:-- Noel King: Selected third country nationals may be relocated to Kosovo for up to one year.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: Then Pristina will support their safe return to their homeland.
--:-- Noel King: And we also know based on documents that the administration has approached countries like Equatorial Guinea, Angola, Eswatini, Rwanda, and others in Africa to also strike some of these agreements.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: These are countries in many cases where the U.S. has tremendous leverage because they are developing countries that rely in many ways on U.S. financial assistance and support.
--:-- Noel King: And so these are the countries that have the most to lose if the U.S. were to retaliate for not striking these agreements and maybe are also the most to gain if they actually agree to accept these deportations from the U.S.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: One challenge that the administration has been facing from the jump is that you have got to hold people someplace before you deport them.
--:-- Noel King: And there has not been capacity.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: What's the administration's plan to deal with that?
--:-- Noel King: ICE right now, according to internal data that we obtained, is holding about 58,000 detainees.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: That is about 140% of its congressionally funded capacity.
--:-- Noel King: So they are way over capacity.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: And the agency, Noel, has been running out of space because ICE operations have been expanding.
--:-- Noel King: And the agency is arresting more people than it can actually hold in detention before moving to deport them to their countries of origin or to a third country.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: The administration is doing multiple things to try to address this issue.
--:-- Noel King: Obviously, it is trying to move people out of the country as quickly as possible, but it is also turning to the Department of Defense and to military installations to try to convert them into processing facilities and temporary immigration detention centers.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: For example, they're looking at whether friendly states like Florida and Texas can aid that detention capacity level by offering facilities like Alligator Alcatraz.
--:-- Noel King: Welcome to Alligator Alcatraz.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: The entrance here is a 30-foot tall wall.
--:-- Noel King: None of this was here five days ago, and we saw at least 30 alligators on our way in.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: We have a lot of bodyguards and a lot of cops that are in the form of alligators.
--:-- Noel King: You don't have to pay them so much.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: It might be as good as the real Alcatraz site.
--:-- Noel King: That is the tent facility that Florida state officials set up about a week ago in the Everglades to hold people awaiting deportation, people transferred from ICE custody.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: But right now, Florida retains control over this facility, which again is in the middle of the Everglades and is by most objective measures sending rather a message that the administration and Florida are going to take a very tough stance on this issue.
--:-- Noel King: And that if you are in the country illegally or planning to potentially cross into the country illegally, now there is a non-zero chance that you could end up in a facility like Alligator Alcatraz in the middle of the Everglades.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: Does the Trump administration have plans to build more facilities along these lines?
--:-- Noel King: Yes, it does.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: And in fact, the big, beautiful bill that President Trump has recently signed into law is offering ICE $45 billion in additional funding to expand its detention network.
--:-- Noel King: And the money will allow ICE, according to cost estimates, to expand that detention capacity to more than 100,000 detention beds.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: To do so, ICE will have to contract new facilities.
--:-- Noel King: But obviously, there are many for-profit prison companies that are eager to help ICE in this effort because it is highly profitable to be housing immigration detainees right now during the second Trump administration.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: So we should expect the administration to move aggressively to set up new detention facilities and to expand capacity at existing ones too.
--:-- Noel King: The Trump administration has set very ambitious goals in terms of its aggressive immigration agenda.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: Officials have set a goal of deporting close to 1 million people per year, which has never been done in U.S. history.
--:-- Noel King: And right now, ICE is not getting close to that number.
--:-- Camilo Montoya-Galvez: And so what ICE is saying now is that the big, beautiful bill that has been signed into law will allow the agency to turbocharge its arrest and deportation efforts, but it's still to be determined whether they can actually meet these very lofty and ambitious targets.
--:-- Noel King: Camilo Montoya-Galvez. He covers immigration and border policy for CBS News.
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--:-- Noel King: Up next, the push to get people to self-deport. Is it working?
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--:-- Noel King: Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards.
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--:-- Noel King: Support for Today Explained comes from Upwork.
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--:-- Noel King: If you run a business, you know that scaling your business requires the right expertise at the right time.
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--:-- Noel King: Please email me, noelle at king.com.
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--:-- Noel King: You're listening to today explained I'm noelle king with nick miroff.
--:-- Nick Miroff: He's a staff writer at the Atlantic. He covers the department of homeland security and immigration enforcement and recently wrote a piece called the self-deportation psyop.
--:-- Noel King: Which began with him watching baseball on the TV.
--:-- Nick Miroff: I mean one minute I was watching a dodgers game and the next minute I looked up and there was Kristi Noem, the secretary of the Department of Homeland Security.
--:-- Noel King: An illegal alien from Guatemala charged with raping a child in Massachusetts.
--:-- Nick Miroff: An MS-13 gang member from El Salvador accused of murdering a Texas man.
--:-- Noel King: She's thanking Trump for cracking down at the border.
--:-- Nick Miroff: It starts showing images of alleged gang members that the administration has sent to this mega prison in El Salvador.
--:-- Noel King: These are just some of the heinous migrant criminals caught because of President Donald J. Trump's leadership.
--:-- Nick Miroff: It's like a very, you know, dark and kind of scary ad.
--:-- Noel King: If you are here illegally, you're next.
--:-- Nick Miroff: You will be fined nearly $1,000 a day, imprisoned and deported.
--:-- Noel King: You will never return.
--:-- Nick Miroff: But if you register using our CBP Home app and leave now, you could be allowed to return legally.
--:-- Noel King: And then suddenly it pivots to this pitch for CBP Home, which is the administration's self-deportation app.
--:-- Nick Miroff: And the message of the ad was basically, you know, you better self-deport using this app or else, you know, we could throw you into some kind of gulag in El Salvador.
--:-- Noel King: Do what's right. Leave now.
--:-- Nick Miroff: Under President Trump, America's laws, border and families will be protected.
--:-- Noel King: What is this app?
--:-- Nick Miroff: It's been around for a while, right?
--:-- Noel King: The app originally started out primarily as a tool for trucking companies that wanted to schedule cargo inspections along the southern border.
--:-- Nick Miroff: It was called CBP-1.
--:-- Noel King: And CBP-1 was essentially repurposed in 2023 by the Biden administration when the Biden administration was trying to get asylum seekers and migrants who were flooding across the border.
--:-- Nick Miroff: Trying to get them to schedule appointments.
--:-- Noel King: If they're seeking asylum, they can use an app on their cell phone called CBP1, O-N-E, CBP1, O-N-E.
--:-- Nick Miroff: That's to spell it out, not the number one.
--:-- Noel King: The Biden administration's attempt there was basically to get people to kind of hope that if they could schedule an appointment to kind of manage the flow of people a little bit better and, you know, and get people to wait.
--:-- Nick Miroff: And the Biden administration eventually brought in, you know, allowed about a million people to come across the border.
--:-- Noel King: And that was a big source of scorn from Republicans and from, you know, President Trump along the campaign trail.
--:-- Nick Miroff: And so what we saw several months into the administration was a rebranding of CBP-1 as CBP-Home.
--:-- Noel King: And that idea came from Trump advisors Stephen Miller.
--:-- Nick Miroff: And they have rolled out the app now as a self-deportation app.
--:-- Noel King: So when you give an illegal immigrant a check for, say, $1,000 or $2,000, whatever it may be, $3,000 to leave the country, you're saving taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars.
--:-- Nick Miroff: It also saves money relative to us having to go out and find that illegal alien and physically arrest them and deport them, which, of course, we will still do.
--:-- Noel King: Tell me about the idea behind self-deportation and how it's supposed to work.
--:-- Nick Miroff: Well, the administration is inviting that person to go to this app, CBP Home, and enter personal information and a departure plan.
--:-- Noel King: And then someone from the Department of Homeland Security is basically going to contact that person and help them coordinate travel and confirm other details of the departure.
--:-- Nick Miroff: The administration is willing to pay airfare and other related travel to people who volunteer to self-deport.
--:-- Noel King: And is offering a thousand dollar what they call exit bonus, which you will receive upon arrival in your destination country that doesn't have to be your home countries, but it can't be the United States.
--:-- Nick Miroff: In the first half of the show, we talked about the Trump administration sending people to third party countries, countries that they are not from.
--:-- Noel King: If a person chooses to self-deport, what are the punitive aspects of this that they might miss?
--:-- Nick Miroff: Well, they will miss all of the punitive aspects, and that's a big part of the self-deportation pitch from the administration.
--:-- Noel King: They're saying, you know, if you voluntarily agree to do this process, you'll be protected from our ICE officers and agents and a much more unpleasant outcome that would involve, you know, being kept in ICE detention and what everyone knows are pretty dire conditions right now.
--:-- Nick Miroff: You know, I think what the administration is really banking on is that by making deportation, you know, by ICE seem as intimidating and as scary as possible, that they will get more and more people to opt to self-deport.
--:-- Noel King: How effective has this been?
--:-- Nick Miroff: Well, in terms of overall numbers, I would say it's still pretty modest.
--:-- Noel King: 7,000 people have signed up so far through the app to self-deport and that they have confirmed more than 3,000 departures.
--:-- Nick Miroff: But the numbers do seem to be accelerating as the administration advertises the program more widely.
--:-- Noel King: But I think what they're really banking on is that the ICE mass deportation campaign will be scary enough that they'll get more and more people willing to do this.
--:-- Nick Miroff: Nick, this is anecdotal but I know that um for example if you look on social media like TikTok you will see people talking about their decision to self-deport to go home.
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--:-- Noel King: Hi my name is Q and I'm making this video to share my experience as I am beginning self-deportation.
--:-- Nick Miroff: My name is Francisco and I recently self-deported from the U.S to live in Mexico with my husband after being in this country for 36 years.
--:-- Noel King: My mom is leaving behind three grown-ass kids and three grandchildren.
--:-- Nick Miroff: She decided to do this in her own terms.
--:-- Noel King: This was her finally meeting with my grandma after driving five hours from Mexico City to her town.
--:-- Nick Miroff: A few thousand people doesn't sound like that much given how much chatter there is about it.
--:-- Noel King: Does this feel bigger than it actually is or do we actually not know a real number?
--:-- Nick Miroff: I think at this stage, it feels bigger than the numbers indicate so far because of the administration's promotion of CBP Home, the ads like the one that I described with Secretary Noem and some of the social media videos that you reference.
--:-- Noel King: But I do think that they are counting on this program to really expand, that they think a lot more people are going to take this route.
--:-- Nick Miroff: So I think we can expect that a lot more people are going to end up wanting to take the self-deportation option.
--:-- Noel King: You have sources inside the administration. And I wonder, you know, one narrative is, look, this is just better. This is more humane.
--:-- Nick Miroff: It's more humane to make the decision on your own terms than to get sent to Alligator Alcatraz, as much glee as there has been over that within the administration.
--:-- Noel King: When you talk to people, do they see it that way? Do they see it as, look, we're giving you a choice? It's just it is better for you?
--:-- Nick Miroff: That's what they say.
--:-- Noel King: I mean, they view CBP Home as the more, you know, humane alternative to being arrested by ICE.
--:-- Nick Miroff: You know, they think that also that by presenting people with this option and, you know, sweetening it by even offering, you know, to pay travel expenses and to provide a cash bonus, that they're giving people a really good choice.
--:-- Noel King: And so it almost kind of further criminalizes in their mind the decision to remain in the United States without legal status.
--:-- Nick Miroff: The administration is also saying that if you leave voluntarily through CBP Home, that you will have an opportunity to apply to return to the United States.
--:-- Noel King: But as advocates are pointing out, the administration has not specified how exactly that will work.
--:-- Nick Miroff: And so they're making it sound as if you'll go home and you'll just go to show up at the U.S. Embassy the next day and get an appointment to come back to the United States legally.
--:-- Noel King: And that is not the case.
--:-- Nick Miroff: And so people who do take this option are potentially going to be unable to return to the United States if ever.
--:-- Noel King: And there's no actual mechanism that will give them kind of an advantage if they apply for a visa.
--:-- Nick Miroff: The only thing is supposedly they'll count favorably toward their case or their application.
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--:-- Noel King: Nick Miroff of The Atlantic.
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--:-- Noel King: Gabrielle Berbet produced today's show.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: Miranda Kennedy edited.
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--:-- Noel King: Laura Bullard is our senior researcher.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: Andrea Kristen's daughter and Patrick Boyd engineered.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: The rest of our team includes Avishai Artsy, Hadi Mawagdi, Miles Bryan, Peter Balanon-Rosen, Devin Schwartz, Denise Guerra, Rebecca Ibarra, Amin El-Sadi, and Jolie Myers.
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--:-- Noel King: Sean Ramasfirm is back from vacation next week.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: And not a moment too soon.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: Tomorrow we're off.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: You can look for a rerun of our show on Plastic Rain in your feeds.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: And coming up on Sunday, of course, explain it to me.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: We'll explain it to you.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: JQ, what are you covering this week?
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: Okay, so this week we're going to be talking about people and their relationships with AI.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: We got a ton of calls from listeners who use chatbots on a regular basis.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: And people use it in all kinds of ways.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: Some for work, some for small tasks, and some people even use it just to vent. Or talk.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: Did you get anyone who has like an AI boyfriend or girlfriend?
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: No one with a romantic relationship.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: But we do have a caller who likes to have like deep philosophical conversations.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: Yes. Yes. All right. I will be there.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: Tune in on Sunday.
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--:-- Noel King: Today Explained is distributed by WNYC and the show is a part of Vox.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: If you would like to support our journalism, you can do so by joining our membership program in this economy.
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--:-- Noel King: Yeah, it's not that expensive.
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--:-- Noel King: Go to Vox.com slash members to sign up if you're interested.
--:-- [Sound effects: Brief pause]
--:-- Noel King: And thank you from all of us.
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