--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hey Bridget, I got you something. Oh my god, what is this? Check it out, open it up.
--:-- Bridget: Okay, uh, Quip. Did you get me the toothbrush? It's as thin as a regular toothbrush, but how do you turn it on? It's as thin as a regular toothbrush, folks. It's, oh my goodness, this is very exciting. This is about the coolest toothbrush I've ever seen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow, getquip.com slash explained. The coolest toothbrush Bridget's ever seen. I'm going to go use it right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: President Donald Trump accepted the invitation from North Korea. That's right. And as we come on the air right now, leap-breaking details about that meeting that will happen by May.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Donald Trump is going to be the first sitting president to meet with a leader of North Korea. These are words I never thought I would say in that particular order. And being on four hours of sleep, there are words I never thought I would hear in that order.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: In all honesty, I was not. I had actually money writing on this. Part of it is degenerate gambling problem. But the idea of Trump sitting with Kim Jong-un, they're so similar in some weird ways. Although Kim Jong-un, all joke aside, is probably the more rational and better prepared.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: But I actually am not surprised. Like this seems sort of quintessential Trump. Is being Donald Trump being free of all of the sort of hangups of following diplomacy and going through your secretary of state, even who he told just a few months ago that he was wasting his time on Twitter by trying to negotiate with North Korea?
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Is being Donald Trump kind of being like Randy Quaid in Independence Day? You're just like ride your plane directly into the alien ship and solve the problem.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hello, boys. I'm back. That's such an awesome reference. Thank you. And now I'll have the mental image of Trump as Randy Quaid on the plane waving goodbye.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: I think there are two concerns with Trump having these kind of talks. One, if you just disdain the idea of diplomacy and you don't like experts and you're walking into somebody who is a master negotiator and really well prepared, there's a real chance you just get played.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: I think the bigger issue is Trump vacillates always from extreme to extreme to extreme. If you have that level of unpredictability in talks, it can get really bad really soon.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: I've covered these kinds of summits before, and usually what happens is there are months of low-level preparation talks, but every detail is hashed out well in advance. Now this is going to happen in less than two months by a guy who hates details.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Let's, I guess, get into how exactly this happened, because even though the president has sort of spontaneously decided that he's going to go meet with Kim Jong-un, there were diplomatic steps that had to take place. So where did this start exactly?
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: So there's a school of thought that says that the lobbying of threats might have actually helped, that Kim Jong-un, like his father before him, felt like he understood American presidents. He knew how they operated and how they thought, and none of them would ever really go to war.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Then they saw Trump and was like, holy hell, this guy might actually go to war. And there's a school of thought that maybe that sort of pushed them both back from the brink.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On the face of it, North Korea does seem to have made some concessions. It's agreed to talk about denuclearization, and it says it will freeze its nuclear and missile tests. But that's reversible.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: And if these talks go ahead, then the reward for North Korea is huge. This really goes back to the Olympics. Mike Pence, who was sent by Trump to represent the U.S., said afterwards that he had tried to arrange a secret meeting with the North Koreans.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Kim Jong-un had, in this kind of masterstroke of diplomacy, first agreed that he would do a joint team of athletes with the South. Shared a women's hockey team. Exactly, which didn't do very well as a team. But it was a masterstroke of beautiful sort of Kim Jong-un diplomacy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: At the Olympics, you had Mike Pence, you had Kim Jong-un's sister and his other delegation. Those talks fell through. But what they signaled was Kim Jong-un was open to talk, as was Trump, even if they weren't saying so publicly.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Flash forward. Kim Jong-un invites a South Korean delegation to Pyongyang. When was that? Right after the Olympics closed. They went there this week and had two days of meetings in Pyongyang This had never happened before either.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they were photographed shaking hands with Kim Jong He looked very kind of giddy and welcoming North Korean leader Kim Jong has met officials from the South for the first time since he came to power upon the death of his father in 2011.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: The two sides are believed to be discussing the easing of tensions, which started with breakthrough meetings at the Winter Olympics and the possibility of encouraging talks between North Korea and the United States.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the key thing is Kim Jong-un is willing to discuss giving up his nukes, which has always been the big thing hanging over talks.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: So that led to the South Koreans visiting the White House last night. Yeah. Donald Trump popped his head into the briefing room and said, there's an off-the-record big announcement coming. Couldn't help himself. Like, the press secretary usually does that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then said, actually, no, no, no, you can report that. Just don't use my photo. Then the South Koreans come out of the White House, are standing in the driveway where, like, Nancy Pelosi normally does a press conference, and they announce the meeting.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Yeah. I told President Trump that in our meeting, North Korean leader Kim Jong-un said he is committed to denuclearization, and he expressed his eagerness to meet President Trump as soon as possible.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: South Korea just had a change of leadership. Can we assume that this wouldn't have been happening if it weren't for that change of leadership, too?
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: I think that's exactly right. I mean, South Korea has a new president, Moon Jae-in, who came into office saying, I'm going to be hard on North Korea for its nuclear program, but there are other areas where we could talk.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we in the US don't always think about South Korean leaders. We don't often know their name. We should know his name because this has Moon Jae-in's fingerprints all over it.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: It's amazing that this is actually a result of the Olympics. And they may have actually brought North Korea, South Korea, and the United States together to have this unprecedented meeting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The sort of interesting single moment to me was Kim Jong-un sending his sister. The North Korean Ivanka Trump, they were calling her. She charmed South Korea. It was interesting to watch the coverage.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: When the announcement was first made that the North Koreans and South Koreans would meet and share a team, a lot of South Koreans were furious. They felt like, why the hell are we giving all this up to a guy who just tested a nuclear weapon who's given us nothing in return?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Right. Then they saw the North Korean Ivanka Trump. And it also is a signal that North Korea is not, you know, this crazy, weird, former Cold War state, but that it too has young women that are capable and are the future leadership.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Suddenly it was like, oh, she's so glamorous and seems so normal and sane. Yeah. And so it kind of changed just by virtue of her being the one who went.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We should note that this isn't the first time the North Koreans have offered to sit down with a U.S. president, right? Is this, I mean, as far as I know, this is something that happens almost regularly?
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: So they've wanted this for decades. They want to be seen as a major power. And there's nothing that conveys that better than being photographed sitting next to an American president shaking hands.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah. Because what that says to the world and to his own people is, look, I am now an equal of the great American superpower. So they've wanted this for 20 odd years. Trump's the only one to give it to them, which is surprising.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Since what president have they been saying, hey, let's talk, you and me? So they've been talking about this since the Bill Clinton presidency. Clinton was the only president who actually came close to going.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The key thing there was Clinton thought about going only at the end of his presidency after there had been years of talks. Compare that to Trump, who wants to go in the first 15 months of his presidency after no talks.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: What happens after Clinton? I mean, it's under the second Bush presidency where we get this acts of evil alignment, right? states like these and their terrorist allies constitute an axis of evil arming to threaten the peace of the world with bush it's interesting because he comes in he lumps north korean with iran and iraq which is silly in a whole lot of different ways
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Bush was also willing to talk so the u.s had negotiations with the north koreans under george w bush they just didn't go anywhere
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Okay obama came in and said we are not going to do with what george w Bush did We not going to have years of talks that go nowhere But Obama didn do very much in terms of diplomacy
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then Donald Trump came in talked about fire and fury There was genuine terror about war And now Trump has kind of gone back in a strange way to where Clinton was in terms of talks with the key difference being Clinton was a detail guy, spent years preparing, was only willing to go at the end.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Trump, non-details guy, willing to go now. Trump obviously wants the huge deal. He wants to go for the home run.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What exactly is the home run when it comes to North Korea? That's after the break.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained. Have you ever been more excited to go use a toothbrush? You know what? I can't say I have.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is, I'm really excited. This is the magic of Quip.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, okay, I've got my little Quip anti-mint anti-cavity toothpaste. Let's go. Let's do it. We're going to brush our teeth.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, Bridget, I didn't introduce you. I should say that you are the editor of Today Explained. Right. Okay, good. Who's very excited to brush your teeth.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Perfect. Okay, here we are going to the all gendered restroom so I can witness Bridget's first use of her Quip electric toothbrush.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Getting the brush wet. Here we go. Moment of truth.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, now the question is do I put it in my mouth before I... Oh, I think you hit start first. Is it going?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mmm. How's that vibration? It's very... It's very hard to talk while it puts people in my mouth.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Getquip.com slash explained. Thanks, Bridget. Thank you. I'm Sean Ramasverham. This is Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Before the break, Yohi Driesen said President Trump has made this historic decision to meet with Kim Jong-un because he's looking for a home run with North Korea. So we should probably talk about what that home run looks like.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The ideal for Trump, the thing that every American president has wanted, is North Korea gives up every nuclear weapon it has. And every time there's been an agreement, and there have been deals before, the North Koreans have broken them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So Clinton signed a deal where he would give them reactors. This is a good deal for the United States. North Korea will freeze and then dismantle its nuclear program. South Korea and our other allies will be better protected. The entire world will be safer as we slow the spread of nuclear weapons.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then the North Koreans built more weapons anyway. Same with Bush. They've just been cheating and cheating for decades. U.S. policy is they give up their nuclear weapons. The dork wonk phrase is denuclearization.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The North is now saying again, hey, we're open to that. What they want back is the U.S. to recognize the legitimacy of their government, to not threaten them, maybe some economic stuff. So they're saying we're open to it. But no one who looks at this believes they actually would give them up because for the North, this is their insurance policy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If they have nuclear weapons, they can believe the U.S. would never really attack them. Realistically, what Trump might be able to get, if he accepts it, is a freeze. He might be able to get the North Koreans to say, we're going to stop here and we'll give you access to our sites. You can see what we have and you could see that we're not building more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If they offer a freeze, most of Trump's advisors would say, take it. The question is, would he take it? North Korea seems to gain so much by having nuclear weapons. It feels very hard to believe that they would trade it all away for the easing of sanctions or something like that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's part of the reason why I just honestly don't imagine that they would. I think we often think of North Korea as this mad country locked off away, run by this guy with strange hair. But they have built extraordinarily advanced chemical weapons, biological weapons, nuclear weapons, and missiles.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They now have the ability to hit the United States with a long intercontinental ballistic missile kind of like what the Soviet Union had that a game changer Realistically they could nuke an American city That was never the case in prior times where the US was open to talks
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Kim Jong-un, despite how he's mocked here, is a very rational man. And if you're a rational man, having nukes is the most rational decision you could possibly make.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The idea that he would suddenly go irrational and say, no, no, no, no, you take them, I'm done. It's just really hard to believe or to imagine happening.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So why, why, why do you think he's doing it? I think he feels like he could get a lot from this president.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think he feels like no US president before would have had the ego to think they could do this. Yeah. There's a playbook for Donald Trump, flatter him, make him feel like he's really important. Okay. And I think Kim Jong-un feels like, hey, I could charm this guy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think Kim Jong-un feels like he could get a lot. sanctions relief, better relationships with the world, for very little. Maybe right now here, you and I can offer him some advice for how to deal with this meeting in May with North Korea.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How would you approach Kim Jong-un? Let's do three pieces of advice for President Donald Trump from Vox's foreign editor, Yoki Driesen.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: I think start with small talk about basketball. Okay. Because that's the one weird area where he likes American culture. Bring up Dennis Rodman. bring him with you. Have him be the envoy. Okay, all Rodman aside, number one.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: I think you would begin by saying, we do not want war. We recognize your government is legitimate. We recognize your nuclear power program, your nuclear weapons. We recognize you've done this. We do not want war. We're not going to try to topple your government, but you cannot threaten us with these weapons.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: And if you do, and if you ever launch something at us, even as a test, we will eradicate your country. That's a good icebreaker. Yeah, exactly.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Then, you know, from there you go to the small talk. All right. How do you follow up? What's number two? You kind of go back to the first point and say back, you're the legitimate ruler of your government. We are willing to recognize you.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: We're willing to have you come to the United States in theory, provided that you start to do verifiable things and we can do them together. So you allow us to see your nuclear sites. We will cancel all military drills with the South.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: You start moving towards verified freezing of your program. We start to lift sanctions. You get to a place where you have a peace deal with South Korea. we may be open to removing some of the US troops in South Korea. But you have to be specific, point by point by point.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: The fear is Trump doesn't like details. So he might just go, all right, Kim, let's just do it. You give up your nuclear program. I lift sanctions. Good, we done here.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: And that's a problem because Kim Jong-un plausibly might say, oh yeah, I'll denuclearize. Sure, no problem. I've said that before. And the minute Trump leaves the room, high five his advisors because he feels like this guy has no idea what he agreed to.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: Number three. At the end of the day, you, Kim Jong-un, need to have a peace deal with the South. You need to have a peace deal with Japan. It isn't just us. You need to be serious about a peace deal with your neighbor in the South.
--:-- Yochi Dreazen: You need to have the DMZ and not be the most dangerous place on Earth. You need to not have 10,000 artillery pieces aimed at Seoul.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yoki Drizzen, thank you so much. Thanks, Sean.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yochie Driesen hosts the Worldly Podcast at Vox. He's on Twitter at Yochie Driesen. You can find Today Explained on Twitter too. We are at today underscore explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is produced in association with Stitcher and we're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The unprecedented Breakmaster Cylinder makes music for us. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Noam Hassenfeld and Luke Vanderplug produce. Afim Shapiro is our engineer. And Bridget McCarthy is our editor.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, the post-toothbrushing interview here. Okay. How was it? It was amazing. Really? Yeah, my teeth feel better than they ever have.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Great. Okay, electric toothbrushes start at $25 at getquip.com slash explained and your first refill pack is free. Thanks, Quip. Thanks, Quip.
