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--:-- Noelle King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noelle King here with Dan Lamothe, who covers the Pentagon and the military for The Washington Post, and who broke the story of this big meeting.
--:-- Dan Lamothe: Thanks for having me on the show.
--:-- Noelle King: Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, you will know, summoned around 800 military brass to Quantico this week for a lecture about lethality, about wokeness, about warfighting, about shaving. We're going to cut our hair, shave our beards and adhere to standards. A lot about shaving. No more beardos. The era of rampant and ridiculous shaving profiles is done. President Trump, meanwhile, continuing to live every week like it's Shark Week, talked about all of it. Be cool when you walk down, but don't, don't bop down the stairs. So one thing with Obama, I had zero respect for him as a president, but he would bop down those stairs. I've never seen it. And threatened yet again to deploy the military to American cities.
--:-- Dan Lamothe: Months ago, a texting scandal threatened Pete Hegseth's future. In the aftermath, he's closer than ever to President Trump. That's ahead on Today Explained. Do that with Acrobat. Now you can do that. Do that with the all-new Acrobat. It's time to do your best work with the all-new Adobe Acrobat Studio.
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--:-- Noelle King: Support for this show comes from Strawberry.me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Or are you stuck in one you've outgrown? Or never wanted in the first place? Sure, you can probably list the reasons for staying. But are they actually just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from strawberry.me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner. Go to strawberry.me slash unstuck to claim a special offer.
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--:-- Noelle King: This is Today Explained. Noelle King here with Dan Lamothe, who covers the Pentagon and the military for The Washington Post, and who broke the story of this big meeting. Dan, what do you think we learned from Secretary Hegseth and President Trump's speeches?
--:-- Dan Lamothe: President Trump came in, didn't really speak from a planned set of talking points. It was a meandering speech that he could have given any number of other places. Would you get the Nobel Prize? Absolutely not. They'll give it to some guy that didn't do a damn thing. Tariff is my favorite word. I love the word tariff. You know, we're becoming rich as hell.
--:-- Noelle King: He was sort of invited only after the Washington Post first reported this news last week that this order had been delivered for generals to show up. It kind of changed the conversation a bit. You know, once it's a presidential event, you know, the media pool grows, the attention grows. I've never walked into a room so silent before. This is very, don't laugh, don't laugh. You're not allowed to do that. You know what? Just have a good time. And if you want to applaud.
--:-- Dan Lamothe: You're right that it was a little disorganized, a little rambling. But at the end of the day, the headlines were the president more or less said the military should be deployed in some U.S. cities. And this is going to be a major part for some of the people in this room. That's a war, too. It's a war from within. That's a very big thing to say.
--:-- Noelle King: What did you hear from Trump's comments on, you know, the radical left Democrats have destroyed San Francisco and Chicago and we're going to straighten them out? There were new lines in there. And I told Pete we should use some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our military national guard, but military because we're going into Chicago. That's a big city. That was striking. That's going to alarm a lot of people for all the obvious reasons. But this is a message roughly that he has delivered before.
--:-- Dan Lamothe: He has, as recently as a few days ago, talked about sending the military to Oregon, giving them the, quote, full force, you know, authority to do what they thought was fit. Truth Social. I am directing Secretary of War Pete Hegseth to provide all necessary troops to protect war ravaged Portland and any of our ICE facilities under siege from attack by Antifa or other domestic terrorists.
--:-- Noelle King: That is not kind of in fitting with longstanding norms. That's going to freak out a lot of people in those cities for obvious reasons. So the president's words may have seemed really striking to civilians, but I wonder if they were striking to your sources inside the military or if the response was, this is how President Trump has been talking for a while.
--:-- Dan Lamothe: I think it was the latter. I mean, I don't think they like it. I think a lot of people that want to see particularly the active duty military not involved in domestic missions unless absolutely required. And there's a handful of cases in history and it's supposed to be a rare thing. So to see him kind of push this in that direction yet again, yeah, they're gritting their teeth, a lot of them. And people are choosing their words carefully.
--:-- Noelle King: I think the idea right now is it's an extremely sensitive time. It's a time when they're searching for leakers. Anyone who has anything that counters the narrative is probably going to get screamed down. So I think we're in that moment to some degree. One of the things Secretary Hegseth said is, But if the words I'm speaking today are making your heart sink, then you should do the honorable thing and resign. We would thank you for your service. And those are the sorts of messages, you know, my way or get out, that I think is going to concern people who otherwise would be happy to serve with a lot of the change going on right now.
--:-- Dan Lamothe: All right, let's talk about what Pete Hegseth said. It was not a short speech. It was about what he thinks the military should be. What did you hear?
--:-- Noelle King: I heard a theme and message that very consistent with a book that he wrote prior to taking this position that he has touted continued to tout You might say we ending the war on warriors I heard someone wrote a book about that That him That his book Right. Pete Hegseth comes into this job with a very seemingly well-defined set of goals and principles. Some people like them, some people don't. And he comes into this job with a kind of showbiz background and not unlike the president, is willing to kind of go there and dress it up and make things big if he thinks the message is going to get to more people that way.
--:-- Dan Lamothe: It's a message of basically the military needs to get back to basics. The military needs to stop focusing on social experimentation. The military has done too much for basically politics, as he would define that. That's, you know, sort of the idea of being more inclusive. And we lost our way. We became the woke department. And I think turning back the clock in some ways. But not anymore. He referenced a 1990 test. What were the military standards in 1990? And if they have changed, tell me why. Was it a necessary change based on the evolving landscape of combat? Or was the change due to a softening, weakening, or gender-based pursuit of other priorities?
--:-- Noelle King: For one, the military has, over time, become more inclusive. And that's not just recent times. That's dating back to, right, post-World War II and even before. Like, this is not a new thing that the military, over time, shifts to become more inclusive. But I think what we're seeing now is a rollback of recent things. Things like the inclusion of transgender service members. No more identity months, DEI offices, dudes in dresses. Things like the inclusion of women in a lot of combat units that 10 years ago, 15 years ago, they were not allowed to even participate in, even if they met a physical standard. If women can make it, excellent. If not, it is what it is. If that means no women qualify for some combat jobs, so be it.
--:-- Dan Lamothe: We're waiting to see what the specifics end up being. Are these going to be standards that they meet? And if not, what happens to people who are already in these jobs? Do they do something else in the military? Are they drummed out? I have no answers for that at the moment. In some ways, Secretary Hegseth talks a lot like the president. There was a golden age once upon a time. Now we are in a state of decay and we've got to get back to the way it was. Yeah, no, I think in a lot of ways you're right. I think add into that, you know, him, you know, having some level of service, you know, he had two deployments, one to Iraq, one to Afghanistan and some time in the National Guard. He had a pretty rough deployment in terms of what happened to his unit.
--:-- Noelle King: There was a big war crimes case in that unit. He saw his brigade commander, who was an inspiring figure for a lot of people in that unit and controversial figure for a lot of others, get a career-ending letter of reprimand at the tail end of that investigation. That's the sort of thing that I think kind of plays a role in forming his worldview now. Prior to him taking this job, we saw him openly advocate for people who had been accused of war crimes when he was on Fox News. He played an integral role in President Trump pardoning a handful of people during the first Trump administration when he was still at Fox.
--:-- Dan Lamothe: So this is consistent with kind of his worldview and message for years now. Pete Hegseth is a really interesting character, right? He has been consistent in his messaging, as you've pointed out. He's also dealt with a lot of scandal, including Signalgate. But President Trump has stood by him throughout. Is Hegseth doing this, this meeting and his other reshaping of the military? Is he doing it for him? Is he doing it for Trump? What do you think is the key to Hegseth as Secretary of Defense?
--:-- Noelle King: I think he comes in governing from a very specific worldview, a worldview that the military is stretched too thin, focused on the wrong things. and too warm and fuzzy for a lot of people. I think that the fear that I hear from a lot of my sources is even a lot of the people who agree with that as an overall kind of thesis are worried about the specifics. They're worried about kind of a overcorrection here, the pendulum swinging too far in the other direction.
--:-- Dan Lamothe: And I think that is kind of where it's going to come down in coming weeks. I have conversations with folks who have pretty impressive backgrounds, People who have served in very tough circumstances, they're pretty hard people. You know, just like physically hard, mentally hard. They are people who are ready for a lot and have dealt with a lot. On balance, some of those folks are open-minded to the idea that things maybe need to be reined in a bit from the Biden years. But how you do that matters too. And I think there is a great concern that they're going to go too far.
--:-- Noelle King: Dan Lamothe of The Washington Post. Coming up, a reporter who spent time with some of the men who were ousted during Signalgate on how the Secretary of Defense changed post-scandal. Support for today's show comes from Built Rewards. Built Rewards says nobody likes paying rent. But what about if you got rewards every time you paid your rent? That is what Built Rewards is all about. By paying rent through Built, you earn points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines. a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, so much more. But it doesn't stop there. Built is about making your entire neighborhood more rewarding, according to Built. You can dine out at your favorite local restaurants, earn additional points, get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios, enjoy exclusive experiences just for Built members every month.
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--:-- Noelle King: That's ahead on Today Explained. Now, let's talk to Carrie Howley, a feature writer at New York Magazine. Carrie, you wrote a great piece called, what was the headline? It was a great headline. I believe it was called playing secretary. Yes, Pete Hegseth is playing secretary. That was it. You spent a lot of time talking to people who know the Secretary of Defense. And you painted a picture of a guy who is chaotic.
--:-- Carrie Howley: I think that's an accurate description. Why is a guy who is chaotic in this job in the first place? I think Pete Hegseth is in this job because he looks to Donald Trump like the kind of guy who should be in this job. I look at you, just incredible people. Central casting, I might add. Trump encountered Hegseth in his previous life as a Fox and Friends weekend co-host.
--:-- Noelle King: What do you think about his leadership style? How unorthodox is he in terms of his leadership of the Department of Defense?
--:-- Carrie Howley: I would say that he has fixations that are unusual for this position. This is a guy who came from television, and his preoccupation continues to be maybe crafting a visual moment, social media, the way the department looks to the broader public, the kind of branding for the Department of Defense. And he spends a lot of time crafting that image.
--:-- Noelle King: When I can get down, do push-ups and deadlifts with the troops and just hear from them, what's working, what isn't, how do you see your mission set? I love that. He's someone who has a long history of issues with impulse control. So there are the very well-documented substance abuse issues. The New Yorker reported this week that as recently, as the spring of 2023, Hegseth ordered three gin and tonics at a weekday breakfast meeting with an acquaintance in Manhattan.
--:-- Carrie Howley: I'm a different man than I was years ago. And that's a redemption story. There are sexual assault allegations. There are affairs. There have been accusations of financial mismanagement. A variety of sources, including your own writings, implicate you with disregarding the laws of war, financial mismanagement. And I believe both organizations that he led prior to his job as the secretary of defense, where he leads, you know, one of the most complicated, largest human organizations in the world.
--:-- Noelle King: There have been kind of constant personnel issues, high profile resignations, leak investigations. This is a very leaky department. And what that tells you is that people are concerned, but don't feel that they can run those concerns up the ladder in an official capacity. And so are talking through the press. There's, of course, SignalGate. The Atlantic Magazine's editor-in-chief Jeffrey Goldberg says he was added to a group chat of top U.S. officials, including the defense secretary and national security advisor, who discussed specific information about airstrikes against Houthi rebels in Yemen hours before they were launched.
--:-- Carrie Howley: And, you know, this morning we decided to publish these texts so people can see for themselves what was going on in the signal chat. There was a second signal gate. U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hex said share details of attacks on Houthi rebels in a second signal chat group. The signal group chat included his wife, brother and personal attorney.
--:-- Noelle King: Hex said that didn't do himself any favors by kind of failing to acknowledge that anything had gone wrong. And there was this kind of panicked aggression that I think emerged in further interviews. This is why we're fighting the fake news media. This is why we're fighting slash-and-burn Democrats. This is why we're fighting hoaxters. Hoaxters. This group right here, full of hoaxters, that peddle anonymous sources from leakers with axes to grind, and then you put it all together as if it's some news story. And what we know, we know exactly what it is.
--:-- Carrie Howley: So I think there's a problem even with crisis communications. Like it wasn't clear to this department how to handle the crisis itself. I mean, this was very stressful to Hexeth. It was like a real focus of the administration. Where are the leaks? We must find the leakers. And that created a situation where different political factions who were kind of jockeying within his office could try to portray people they didn't like as the leakers.
--:-- Noelle King: So you had Pete Hegseth publicly blaming two close friends and a third top aide of leaking of betraying him I offered them to take a polygraph. I offered them to take my phone. I told them I did not leak anything. I did not leak anything, classified or unclassified, to the media. I've not had a single conversation with the media that wasn't on the record, sanctioned by public affairs.
--:-- Carrie Howley: And then how do things change after the fallout from Signal Gate? What happens at the Defense Department then? So what sources told me was that in the early days of this administration, of this tenure, Hegseth came in with kind of ambition. He was curious. He was interested. Even though he didn't have the deep experience of his predecessors, there was kind of an openness to learn. And then after Signalgate, the attitude was more one of paranoia, fear. I mean, the interviews he did regarding these leaks feel panicked.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm here because President Trump asked me to bring warfighting back to the Pentagon every single day. That is our focus. And if people don't like it, they can come after me. No worries. I'm standing right here. The warfighters are behind us. Our enemies know they're on notice. Our allies know we're behind them. And that, in this dangerous world, for the American people, is what it's all about.
--:-- Carrie Howley: Someone who kind of doesn't know who to trust or where to turn. Someone who has trouble making decisions in stressful situations. His trusted circle became much smaller. So you saw kind of oddly his wife was frequently in the office giving orders to the public relations arm of the department. His brother came on, his personal lawyer. And so instead of relying on like this kind of deep bench of people who have been there for a very long time, he's surrounding himself with more of his kind of personal entourage.
--:-- Noelle King: It sounds like he may be looking for people who won't betray him. Yes. And the fear really, I would say it infected the way, the ambitions that everyone had for the department. So instead of trying to solve some of the problems that Hegseth mentioned during his confirmation, things he might have been ambitious about reforming earlier, as someone described it to me, the department stopped being creative. And it started being just a mechanism for implementing executive orders.
--:-- Carrie Howley: In other words, he was just kind of waiting for Trump to tell him what to do. Hmm. Hegseth is not an ideological character. This is something that sources close to him emphasized. He used to have a more interventionist mindset. He wrote several books about how we should have been in Iraq longer. And as soon as he came into this administration, he started parroting some of these more isolationist points of view.
--:-- Noelle King: He's someone who's willing to shift his ideology depending on who he might be talking to. And I think that's particularly useful to someone who might want Hegseth to follow questionable orders. This isn't somebody who's going to have a red line because he's not someone who has strong ideas about what the military ought to be doing. So if Hegseth's square jaw is ultimately what got him this job I think what's keeping him in the job is his demonstrated loyalty to the strong man at the top I think he is here because Donald Trump trusts that when Donald Trump calls on Pete Hegseth to do something questionable he is a guy who's going to follow orders.
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--:-- Noelle King: Keri Howley is a features writer for New York Magazine. Ariana Aspuru and Devin Schwartz produced today's show, Amin El-Sadi edited. Patrick Boyd and Adrian Lilly are our engineers, and Laura Bullard checks the facts. The rest of our team, Avishai Artsy, Hadi Mwagdi, Miles Bryan, Peter Balanon-Rosen, Denise Guerra, Danielle Hewitt, and Kelly Wessinger. Our deputy EP is Jolie Myers, and our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy. Sean Ramos-Rum is our founding father. We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder. I'm Noelle King. Today Explained is distributed by WNYC, and the show is a part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
