--:-- [Scene: A news studio or podcast recording space]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: To Hong Kong now, where this was a scene a short time ago as riot police used pepper spray, tear gas and rubber bullets to hold back a surge of protesters trying to storm the territory's main government complex.
--:-- Noel King: The demonstration has delayed debate on a controversial extradition law. It's here the bill could allow suspects to be sent to mainland China for trial.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The bill many see as a power grab by China and a threat to their semi-special autonomous status.
--:-- Noel King: Protests have been ongoing since Sunday when a million people took to the streets to express their anger.
--:-- Matt Rivers: I think there's no hope, but we still need to continue to fight against the Beijing government and protect our city and our future.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Matt Rivers, you're an international correspondent for CNN, the cable news network, covering the protests from Hong Kong. Where are you right now?
--:-- Matt Rivers: So currently I'm in the shadow of the Legislative Council building, which is kind of the main government building here in Hong Kong.
--:-- Noel King: And it's kind of been ground zero for the massive protests that we've seen since Sunday here.
--:-- Matt Rivers: Yeah. What's it been like since Sunday? What's been happening outside that building?
--:-- Matt Rivers: Yeah, I mean, it's been chaotic in Hong Kong, to say the least. It started kind of on Sunday when there was, if you believe the numbers from organizers, over a million people marching out in the streets, largely peaceful on Sunday.
--:-- Matt Rivers: Monday and Tuesday went by with smaller protests. But then Wednesday, yesterday, it really picked up where there was tens of thousands of people outside of what's called the LegCo building, Legislative Council.
--:-- Matt Rivers: They gathered outside of LegCo because that's when the legislators were set to debate this really controversial extradition bill that is the kind of impetus for these protests.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And they were out there peacefully for maybe five, six hours, something like that. And then the tear gas started and things got a lot more violent.
--:-- Matt Rivers: Well, so basically yesterday there was kind of a standoff. So right around four o'clock, police say that they were charged by protesters with weapons.
--:-- Matt Rivers: Protesters would counter that and say the police got jumpy and overreacted. But there was kind of pitched battles for about two to three hours in the streets where you saw thousands of police officers versus thousands of protesters.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And the police tried to push back the protesters. So get them away from the main government building and push them more towards central Hong Kong, kind of right in the middle of the financial district of Hong Kong.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And they used everything at their disposal, really non-lethal weapons. So you're talking about pellet guns, you're talking about rubber bullets, you're talking about mainly tear gas.
--:-- Matt Rivers: Dozens of tear gas canisters were fired and it got pretty violent. There was at least 80 injured, including a couple serious injuries.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And they kind of pushed to this one section of central Hong Kong, and it was a standoff. And a lot of us were quite nervous that it was going to be really bad because in that area, the streets are quite narrow and there wouldn't be really a lot of places for protesters to go if it got more violent.
--:-- Matt Rivers: But thankfully, after about a six or seven hour standoff, protesters started to disperse on their own, I think kind of thinking we're going to fight this battle another day.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And the police, to their credit, also left. And so by the early morning hours of Thursday after what looked like it could get really violent. You know, a violent day kind of ended a lot better, a lot more peacefully than most people were expecting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This isn't the first protest we've seen out of Hong Kong in recent years. How do these actions this week differ from the ones we've seen before?
--:-- Matt Rivers: There's been a lot of protests in Hong Kong, most notably recently in 2014, when you saw a pro-democracy protest called Occupy Hong Kong.
--:-- Matt Rivers: But those protests, not only were they smaller than the ones now, but they were largely made up of young liberal university students.
--:-- Matt Rivers: But what you see now and what you saw, let's say, last Sunday when a million people showed up and what you could see again this Sunday is a more cross-sectional buy-in of the Hong Kong citizenry.
--:-- Matt Rivers: Now you've got business people who are worried that, you know, this extradition law isn't just about human rights. Let's say that, you know, you're a foreigner. Let's say you're English or you're American and you're here studying or you're here working in Hong Kong.
--:-- Matt Rivers: Let's say you commit some sort of an offense that Beijing is not happy about. Well, you too could be extradited to China. And what the business community here worries about is that that could make Hong Kong a less attractive place for foreign direct investment, for large multinational companies to come to Hong Kong and set up shop here as they've done for decades.
--:-- Matt Rivers: This has long been the gateway to China, to mainland China, but without the Chinese legal system, which is notoriously opaque and petty. And so the business community here doesn't like this bill.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And so that's what protesters would say is, look, maybe we've got a chance that we didn't have before because it's not just a bunch of 20-year-olds who are protesting. It's a wider cross-section of the community.
--:-- Matt Rivers: But even with the potential of the business community buying in here, this isn't really going anywhere. As of now, no. This fight is far from over.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Basically, it all has to do with this extradition bill, which is still working its way through the legislative council.
--:-- Matt Rivers: So just to kind of back up a little bit, the extradition bill was first introduced or announced back in February of this year and kind of introduced formally into the legislature in April.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And without getting too much into the weeds, it basically would allow Hong Kong to extradite suspects of certain kinds of crimes to other places, namely mainland China.
--:-- Matt Rivers: So Hong Kong is technically a part of China, but it was handed over back to China in 1997 by the British.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And there was a 50-year deal that was kind of put in place that'll end in 2047, where Hong Kong was basically allowed to keep a lot of the democratic rights that it had had under British rules.
--:-- Matt Rivers: So you're talking about a freedom of expression of the press, their own judicial system, their own immigration system.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And that's kind of been a pillar of Hong Kong. And what we've seen over the last couple of years is kind of Beijing taking certain steps to try and erode some of those democratic freedoms.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And this extradition bill is looked at as kind of just the latest attempt of that. What critics say is that if you take if you push forward with this extradition bill Beijing could request the extradition of anybody that it wants
--:-- Matt Rivers: So sure they could ask for murder suspects but they could also ask for you know judicial activists or democracy activists or journalists or human rights activists.
--:-- Matt Rivers: Beijing critics say could just basically say, you know what, we don't like that person for political reasons and we want them extradited.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And now they would have the legal cover to do so. And so that's kind of the main gripe that protesters have.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And so now bringing it back to now, this bill was debated. It was supposed to be debated on Wednesday and again today, Thursday, except that got canceled because of these protests.
--:-- Matt Rivers: We know Friday, there's not going to be any more debate on this and it pushes it into next week. It's a temporary win for protesters, but where it ends, whether this bill actually gets passed, you know, we're not sure as of yet, but there's definitely more protests to come.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why is this extradition bill being debated now? Where did it come from? I mean, Hong Kong's had its political status since the late 90s, right?
--:-- Matt Rivers: Kind of depends on who you ask. With the Hong Kong government and the leader of the Hong Kong government is a woman named Carrie Lam.
--:-- Matt Rivers: She's the chief executive here. And this bill, according to her, comes about after the murder of a pregnant woman by her Hong Kong boyfriend when they were both in Taiwan.
--:-- Matt Rivers: So he kills her, has since admitted to killing her. He leaves Taiwan, comes back here to Hong Kong. But due to extradition law, he can't be sent back to Taiwan to face trial.
--:-- Matt Rivers: But he also can't face trial here in Hong Kong because Hong Kong courts have no jurisdiction to try crimes that were committed in Taiwan.
--:-- Matt Rivers: So what Hong Kong's government is saying is, well, we don't want Hong Kong to become a haven for fugitives. And so they're trying to get this bill passed.
--:-- Matt Rivers: Now, there's a lot of people here that would say, okay, that's one very specific case. It's terrible. It should not have happened.
--:-- Matt Rivers: However, that doesn't necessarily justify opening up extradition laws beyond just to Taiwan, but also mainland China. And there was no reason to do this extradition bill right now.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And this is just Hong Kong government doing what Beijing wants it to. So that's where the critics really come in here.
--:-- Matt Rivers: But regardless of the reasoning, this extradition bill is moving through the system right now. And it has a really good chance of getting passed.
--:-- Matt Rivers: Ultimately, the protesters here can do and say and make as big a fuss as they want to. But ultimately, what most people understand is that Carrie Lam, the chief executive, has the numbers inside the legislative council to ultimately get this thing passed.
--:-- Matt Rivers: If she can get the council actually in session and one more kind of difference that Hong Kong has from mainland China will go away.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm sure you're talking to these protesters. Do you think they're aware of the potential futility of these massive actions?
--:-- Matt Rivers: Absolutely. I mean, they know what they're up against. And I think that they would say, you know what, so what? This is our city and it's worth fighting for the beliefs that we have.
--:-- Matt Rivers: And if there's even the slightest chance that they can cause lawmakers to back away from this bill and create enough pressure on the chief executive to repeal this bill, then it's worth doing.
--:-- [Sound effects: A crowd can be heard in the background]
--:-- Esther: I'm Esther. I was born and raised in Hong Kong. We went out to this strike trying to stop the government to pass the extradition bill because we know that it's our very core of Hong Kong.
--:-- Esther: So we try to stop them to get the law passed because the legal system is pretty much our only thing left in Hong Kong, which is not influenced by China. Under the one country to system the rule.
--:-- Esther: So we're trying to stop our last line, defending our last core. We're afraid of the Chinese government because we know what they can do.
--:-- Esther: Look at China. They can block everything. So you don't have any freedom of speech. You don't have any freedom as in knowing stuff, like blocking all the Googles or news or anything.
--:-- Esther: Like, pressed freedom. So we just want our rights because we got promised this one country, two system.
--:-- Esther: So it's not even 25 years yet, I guess, from 1997. So it's not even half. But we are already facing a lot of issues because of China.
--:-- Esther: So we are losing our freedom step by step. As I said, like, this is the end game of Hong Kong. If this is passed, we are just China.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: After the break, why so many in Hong Kong want to avoid becoming just China.
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--:-- [Sound effects: Music continues]
--:-- Helier Cheung: My name Helier Cheung and I a BBC journalist based in London I spent some time growing up in Hong Kong and I worked as Hong Kong correspondent for a while as well
--:-- Helier Cheung: As someone who grew up there and has worked as a correspondent there as well what do you think is most important for people who have never been to Hong Kong know very little about it, to understand about these protests that are happening there right now?
--:-- Helier Cheung: Well, I think it's a reflection of the fact that Hong Kong isn't just any other Chinese city. It's a special administrative territory in China, where it has its own legal system, its own borders.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And unlike mainland China, it has the right to protest and the right to free speech. And a lot of these are inherited from the fact that Hong Kong used to be a British colony, which is why they inherited the legal system and certain rights and freedoms.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And the reason people are protesting now is because they feel that's being encroached on by this legislation that would allow extraditions from Hong Kong to mainland China.
--:-- Helier Cheung: China was specifically excluded from Hong Kong's extradition arrangements before, partly because people drafting the legislation didn't trust in China's legal system and court system.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And it seems like most of the protesters think that's still the case and they do not want to see people in Hong Kong being sent to mainland China. They think that's quite dangerous and an encroachment on what makes Hong Kong special.
--:-- Helier Cheung: How did Hong Kong get to be special? Can you give us sort of the brief history here?
--:-- Helier Cheung: Part of Hong Kong, Hong Kong Island, was given to the British after the first Opium War. So this was way back in 1842.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And then several years later, in 1898, China leased part of Hong Kong, the new territories, for 99 years to the British as well, which is why for more than 150 years, Hong Kong has been in some way or form a British colony, where it was under British rule, and it had different legal systems.
--:-- Helier Cheung: The British Empire was huge, so it wasn't its only colony abroad. But the British did call it the Pearl of the Orient, and we know Hong Kong became quite an important trading hub.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And its economy took off in the 1950s as well, and it became a manufacturing hub. So certainly it was considered an important part of the British Empire, and probably one that the British Empire were quite proud of having.
--:-- Helier Cheung: The businessmen in Hong Kong did most of their business in the morning, dictated their letters. Then they went off to the Hong Kong club and had several gin and tonics, more than several sometimes.
--:-- Helier Cheung: In the 1980s, we were coming close to the 99-year deadline, which was in the lease for the new territories, and the British and Chinese started negotiations.
--:-- Helier Cheung: But China made it quite clear that it thought all of Hong Kong should be returned to Chinese rule, so not just the new territories, and it didn't want them to consider the prospect of extending the lease.
--:-- Helier Cheung: So given that at that point, China was a rising power and it had, well, I guess it had more negotiating power, the two sides eventually agreed that they would return Hong Kong to Chinese rule after 1997 when the lease was up.
--:-- Helier Cheung: So these negotiations lead up to the 1997 handover, and I remember it quite well because I was a kid living in Hong Kong at the time.
--:-- Helier Cheung: So as a kid, you don't particularly follow politics, but in the run-up, or even a year before, I remembered some of my friends said, oh, we're emigrating, we're going to Canada now.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And it's because their parents were worried about what life would be like under Chinese rule. And I actually sang in the handover ceremony since I was in this children's choir that was selected to take part in the celebrations at the time.
--:-- Helier Cheung: I think the lyrics went along the lines of the rays of July are shining on Hong Kong because the handover was on the 1st of July. And then it goes, the pride of the handover will always be in my heart.
--:-- Helier Cheung: So you could tell, you know, patriotic but perhaps slightly cheesy lyrics. I mostly remember that you had to get up really early in the morning and it was a rainy day and there were sandwiches we had for breakfast, which were quite disgusting.
--:-- Helier Cheung: So that was the stuff that stuck. It was Queen Victoria who ruled when Britain seized Hong Kong. Tonight her descendant helped to give it back.
--:-- Helier Cheung: Unprecedented though this moment in history may be, we have the utmost confidence in the abilities and resilience of the Hong Kong people.
--:-- Helier Cheung: Britain learnt long ago that Hong Kong people know best what is good for Hong Kong. For China, this was a moment of pride, for their leaders an end to what they call an age of shame and humiliation.
--:-- Helier Cheung: For many, Hong Kong's return to China is cause for great joy, for others, great concern. The flame of democracy has been ignited in Hong Kong.
--:-- Helier Cheung: The whole world is looking at us. Long live democracy. Long live democracy.
--:-- Helier Cheung: In fact, most people in the colony didn't even go to the celebrations. They were at home, or out shopping, still working in some cases.
--:-- Helier Cheung: Sometimes the celebrations on television were simply ignored. We've been under British rule for more than a century, he says. I'm happy they're gone, but I've got to go to work.
--:-- Helier Cheung: So what happens with the handover? Well, after the handover ceremonies, I think a lot of people in Hong Kong thought there weren't any immediate changes.
--:-- Helier Cheung: So life did go on and it seemed like it definitely felt like a different system from mainland China.
--:-- Helier Cheung: Although at various points, people were always nervous about any prospect of change.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And then there was a big flashpoint in 2003 when the government in Hong Kong tried to introduce national security legislation.
--:-- Helier Cheung: Article 23, when enacted, will roll back some of our key freedoms, press freedom, religious freedom and the freedom of association.
--:-- Helier Cheung: So I think periodically, whenever there's similar things like looking at legislation or certain rulings from China, that really bothers people.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And they always question whether one country, two systems is under threat. But I think it's become particularly apparent in the last decade or so where people have been more and more worried.
--:-- Helier Cheung: What has the relationship between China and Hong Kong been like since the handover? Has China held up its side of the bargain?
--:-- Helier Cheung: The answer probably depends on who you talk to. So a lot of well pro parties or the Hong Kong government would say China has held up its side of the agreement
--:-- Helier Cheung: And if you look at the practical facts you know in many aspects life in Hong Kong hasn't changed that much.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And it does have quite a lot of autonomy. But on the other hand, critics of the Hong Kong government or the Chinese government point out under the basic law, which is Hong Kong's mini constitution that got agreed as part of the handover.
--:-- Helier Cheung: The basic law said that Hong Kong should eventually be able to elect its chief executive in a more democratic way. But reforms for that never quite worked out.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And similarly, with Hong Kong's rights and freedoms, a lot of people would argue that they have been deteriorating to some extent.
--:-- Helier Cheung: Certainly, that's what some surveys suggest the perception is.
--:-- Helier Cheung: So I guess at this point, how different is life in Hong Kong from mainland China?
--:-- Helier Cheung: Well, some things are quite similar. So you'd say, you know, it's an Asian city, there's decent transport and decent food.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And culturally, they'll be interested in a lot of the same things. But there are some really specific differences.
--:-- Helier Cheung: For example, if you're a young person in Hong Kong, you can get on Facebook and WhatsApp just fine.
--:-- Helier Cheung: If you're a young person in China, you would need a virtual private network to be able to get on at all.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And I suppose the expectation of privacy or censorship will be different.
--:-- Helier Cheung: If you're posting on social media in China, you know that there's an army of people that are paid to search social media sites and delete anything sensitive.
--:-- Helier Cheung: Whereas in Hong Kong, you don't get the same sort of political censorship in any case.
--:-- Helier Cheung: Similarly, if you're a young person in Hong Kong or, well, anyone in Hong Kong, you'll know based on the news you're reading that the newspapers there, they might have business interests or they might self-censor a bit.
--:-- Helier Cheung: But the press is generally considered free. Whereas if you're looking at the media in mainland China, a lot of people are more cynical about it because they know with state-owned media, there are certain things they can and can't say.
--:-- Helier Cheung: The restrictions are a lot clearer.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And how do people in Hong Kong identify? Do they feel Chinese? Do they feel British? Do they feel neither, both?
--:-- Helier Cheung: The really interesting thing about how people in Hong Kong identify is a majority of them will be, you know, ethnic Chinese, but they don't identify as Chinese.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And we know this because the University of Hong Kong does surveys quite regularly. And it turns out most people would call themselves Hong Kongers, but only 15% would call themselves Chinese.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And with younger people, the difference is even starker. So one survey in 2017 suggested that only 3% of people aged between 18 and 29 would call themselves Chinese.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And I think that's because a lot of people in Hong Kong, they feel like as a former colony with its own system, they have a different culture.
--:-- Helier Cheung: They always complain about tourists from mainland China not queuing, for example. So British. Yes, I suppose it is.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And I suppose there has been a lot of resentment towards certain people from mainland China in recent years.
--:-- Helier Cheung: There's some complaints about tourists buying up milk powder or just being rude in general.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And I think for a lot of Hong Kongers, they find it more personal because, you know, they know they're from the same country, but they also feel very different.
--:-- Helier Cheung: China will emphasise the fact that Hong Kong's part of China and it's one country overall.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And the Chinese government probably thinks Hong Kong people should be a bit more respectful towards it.
--:-- Helier Cheung: They probably don't like the fact that people are always criticising it and holding protests about it.
--:-- Helier Cheung: But China would also argue that one country, two systems is working quite well because they would always say they're not interfering in Hong Kong's business.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And ultimately, Hong Kong still has a lot of freedom. So that would be the position China takes.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And how does China feel about the protests?
--:-- Helier Cheung: Well, you know, Hong Kong's got quite a tradition of protest. In fact, I remember one local journalist said I'm protesting as in the DNA of a lot of people in Hong Kong.
--:-- Helier Cheung: The protests happening right now are particularly interesting because a lot of people do think they're the most violent protests we've seen since 1997.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And at the same time Hong Kong seems to be deploying riot police more quickly who are more set on clearing the scene as quickly as possible as well, suggests that the two sides are becoming more confrontational.
--:-- Helier Cheung: And I'm sure China will be watching this really closely, deciding what to do next.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As someone who was there singing in the choir in 1997 and who grew up in Hong Kong, how do you feel watching stuff like this happen there?
--:-- Helier Cheung: Oh, that's a good question. Let me think how to answer that, since as a BBC journalist, I'm not meant to express personal views.
--:-- Helier Cheung: I kind of knew, but I had to ask anyway. I'm sorry.
--:-- Helier Cheung: No, fair enough. I mean, is there an answer to that question that you can offer without weighing in on how you feel about the protests?
--:-- Helier Cheung: I mean, this is something that you're personally connected to. That's why I have to ask.
--:-- Helier Cheung: Yeah, let me think. I think what's on the minds of a lot of people in Hong Kong right now is should I still stay here because in the last couple of years a lot of people do talk about should I emigrate is it safe to stay in Hong Kong or other people conversely think these protesters are wrecking the economy that's terrible so I guess as a person from Hong Kong I'd say well I can understand why a lot of people feel cautious or quite worried about the turn of events
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Helier Cheung is a reporter for the BBC. Matt Rivers is a reporter for CNN. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained from VOX. The team is comprised of Irene Noguchi, Bridget McCarthy, Afim Shapiro, Amina Alsadi, Halima Shah, and Noam Hassenfeld.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This week we had extra help from Miles Bryan and Jillian Weinberger.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our interns are Alex Pena and Will Reed, and the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder is our favorite band.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is produced in association with Stitcher, and we are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Thank you.
