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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Noel King: And I'm Noel King.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today, we're talking about a strange phenomenon on Spotify. People around the world are saying they're experiencing the same thing. They play a song, any song, and when that song is finished, a new song plays. But it's always the same song.
--:-- Noel King: That's right. And that song is "Espresso" by Sabrina Carpenter.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah. And it's not just that people are hearing it a lot. They're hearing it after every single song they play, regardless of what it is.
--:-- Noel King: Rebecca Jennings, senior correspondent at Vox, joins us to explain what's going on. Rebecca, thanks for being here.
--:-- Rebecca Jennings: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, Rebecca, can you tell us what's happening with Spotify and "Espresso"?
--:-- Rebecca Jennings: Yeah. So, there's been a lot of online chatter over the past two months where people were saying, "Why does this song play after every single song that I play, regardless of what it is?" And it's just "Espresso" by Sabrina Carpenter.
--:-- Noel King: And it's not just that people are hearing it a lot. They're hearing it after every single song they play.
--:-- Rebecca Jennings: Exactly. And people's gut reaction to this song popping up over and over and over again is that there's some sort of untoward, payola-esque conspiracy on Spotify right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Payola? What's that?
--:-- Rebecca Jennings: So, payola is a practice that's illegal. It refers to when labels would pay radio DJs to play certain songs without disclosing it.
--:-- Noel King: And people are saying that Spotify is doing something similar, but with its algorithm.
--:-- Rebecca Jennings: Exactly. But, actually, payola only applies to public airwaves, like TV and radio. So, even if there is pay for play happening with Spotify, it's technically not payola because the internet doesn't apply.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay. So, what's going on with Spotify's algorithm?
--:-- Rebecca Jennings: So, Spotify's recommendation engine works on a principle called collaborative filtering. If you're a standard pop music listener, it will take songs that other pop listeners are really liking and add to their playlist and serve them to you.
--:-- Noel King: But why does it feel like it's just one song over and over again?
--:-- Rebecca Jennings: I think it's because of this concept that happens a lot in these recommendation algorithms, which is called snowballing. It's like when TikTok serves you a video, and if those people like that video, it will serve it to more people and more and more and more until it becomes inescapable for a certain group of users.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay. So, what has Spotify said about Sabrina Carpenter and this song "Espresso"?
--:-- Rebecca Jennings: So, I reached out to Spotify for a comment. They wouldn't comment on the record, but they did send me two Instagram posts that they had published about the rise of Sabrina Carpenter.
--:-- Noel King: And what did they say?
--:-- Rebecca Jennings: They said that this is just an occasion where the stars kind of aligned with her career in general. She did the standard pop girl thing, and that coincided with the amount of plays of "Espresso" on the platform.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay. So, what's going on with Spotify's recommendation engine, and why is it playing "Espresso" more than other songs?
--:-- Rebecca Jennings: Well, because Spotify thinks you'll like Sabrina Carpenter, not because she's paying them to do so.
--:-- Noel King: But if you're looking for a reason to be mad at Spotify, we might have one when we're back on Today Explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome back to Today Explained. We're talking about Spotify and its recommendation engine.
--:-- Noel King: And we're joined by David Israelite, president and CEO of the National Music Publishers Association, or NMPA.
--:-- David Israelite: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, David, you're mad at Spotify. Why?
--:-- David Israelite: It's not that I'm mad at Spotify. It's that Spotify has declared war on all of the songwriters that have made their business even possible.
--:-- Noel King: What do you mean by that?
--:-- David Israelite: So, if you're one of the 44 million Americans who subscribe to Spotify, what they've done is change the nature of your subscription to make you what's called a bundled customer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's a bundled customer?
--:-- David Israelite: A bundled customer is when you take a music product and you marry it with another product that's not music related, in this case, an audiobooks product.
--:-- Noel King: And what's the problem with that?
--:-- David Israelite: The problem is that Spotify has done this without the permission or the consent of these 44 million Americans.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay. So, what's the significance of this?
--:-- David Israelite: Well, if you're a bundled customer, under the law, you pay songwriters under a different formula that results in songwriters getting a significantly less amount of money than if they were just a music subscriber.
--:-- Noel King: And how much money are we talking about?
--:-- David Israelite: Songwriters are looking to lose probably more than $150 million this year.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay. So, what's going on with Spotify's business model, and why is it affecting songwriters?
--:-- David Israelite: Well, Spotify has changed its business model to make more money from audiobooks, and they're doing it by making songwriters pay less.
--:-- Noel King: And how is Spotify doing this?
--:-- David Israelite: They're doing it by making 44 million customers who were automatically shifted into a different plan have to elect to quit their current plan and sign up for a new one just to get back to where they were.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay. So, what's the solution here?
--:-- David Israelite: Well, the NMPA has filed a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission, and we've also referred that complaint to 10 different state attorneys general.
--:-- Noel King: And what's the goal here?
--:-- David Israelite: The goal is to change the law that makes us license and give music publishers and songwriters more freedom to make their own decisions about whether or not they want to be in business with a company that treats them like this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay. Well, thanks for explaining all of this to us, David.
--:-- David Israelite: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Noel King: And thanks for listening to Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you want to support Today Explained, you can become a Vox Member today.
--:-- Noel King: And if you want to learn more about your ad choices, visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks for listening.
--:-- Noel King: And we'll be back tomorrow.
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