--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Does your kid love to build stuff? How about having your kid build stuff that actually teaches your kid stuff about math and science? And it's still fun, so you can kind of trick them into doing it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: KiwiCo is offering you, listener, right now the chance to try their educational projects for free. Go to kiwico.com slash explained to redeem the offer and learn more about their projects for kids of all ages.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Throughout the country, mobile telephone stations are being expanded to become links in a nationwide network. The mobile telephone greatly expands the scope of voice communication. It provides added telephone service in our principal cities, allows for more efficient operation at railway terminals, furnishes easy contact between land and vessels on our waterways, and at the same time, adds to the convenience of travel. It provides an easy way of keeping in touch with vehicles on the major highways. It is one more step toward telephone service for anyone, anytime, anywhere.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Stephen Overley, you cover technology at Politico. The whole world seems right now to be at odds over the future of telecommunications. What is happening?
--:-- Stephen Overley: What's happening is perhaps the largest sort of shift in how we use our technology. And really what's behind this is something called 5G, which stands for fifth generation. And it's essentially a much faster form of computing than what we have even today.
--:-- Stephen Overley: You know, using our smartphones, all the apps we use, kind of the technology that powers that is about to get faster. It's about to get stronger. And there's a global battle right now about who controls that future. And at the center of it is this Chinese company, Huawei, which is like, what, like China's AT&T, but even bigger and more powerful?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Exactly. They're the largest telecommunications network provider in the world. And so what that means is a lot of the networks around the world, like the AT&Ts or the Verizons of the world, rely on Huawei technology. They're also the world's second largest provider of smartphones. They're behind Samsung, but actually bigger than Apple in terms of providing phones around the world.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And so they're just this massive company with a lot of reach. And there's these real security concerns because of their ties to the Chinese government. And the U.S. has not been getting along with Huawei for a minute.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's the history of that beef?
--:-- Stephen Overley: Right. So there's all this tension right now. But really concerns about Huawei go back to the Obama administration. You know, in 2012, Congress released a report that essentially outlined security concerns that Huawei and ZTE, which is another Chinese telecommunications company, could be providing the Chinese government access to U.S. data or U.S. telecommunication networks if their technology were to be widely adopted.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Huawei and ZTE seek to expand in the United States, but as a result of our investigation, we do not have the confidence that these two companies, with their ties to the Chinese government, can be entrusted with infrastructure of such critical importance. Again, our advice to the private sector is this. Your obligation is to consider larger data protection and national security implications of your business decisions, and we would not advise doing business with these two companies.
--:-- Stephen Overley: Certainly since that time, you've had lawmakers who position themselves as real hawks on national security or on defense that have been raising concerns about these companies.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why is this upgrade to 5G such a big deal? Like, what exactly is it and why is it such a game changer?
--:-- Stephen Overley: I remember, I think we all lived through the update from 3G to 4G and, like, I still use Wi-Fi most of the day. So I'm just a little confused about that. I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize how often they are actually relying on these telecommunication networks now more than ever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when you're in your car, for example, and you're trying to use your phone, you know, chances are you don't have Wi-Fi in your car. You're relying on – or when you're taking the train or in more situations, you'll encounter where you want to use your phone. You want to transfer data and Wi-Fi may not be available.
--:-- Stephen Overley: So one of the reasons 5G is such a significant update is it's going to be much faster than 4G, which is what we have in a lot of places now. Like how much faster? About 100 times. 100 times faster than what we have now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As with most telecommunication networks, you know, it will probably depend where you are in the service in your area. Like it won't be 100 times faster if you have T-Mobile. I have no comment on T-Mobile's telecommunications abilities.
--:-- Stephen Overley: But, you know, it will be patchy. I think anytime we're talking about a technology update, including 5G, you know, there's what companies promise, you know, what their marketing tells you and what you actually encounter in the real world.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So how exactly does Huawei or any other telecom company implement 5G? Like what is the technology that's actually being built right now?
--:-- Stephen Overley: It's a great question and an interesting question because 5G networks will actually look quite different from the 4G networks that we have today.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Which is part of what makes it a significant investment for any of these companies trying to do this line of work. To break it down as simply as I can, right now we're used to having sort of these big cell towers, right, that sort of transmit over vast areas. 5G is going to be structured differently.
--:-- Stephen Overley: You're going to actually have a lot of small towers, not even towers actually. There are boxes that could really be affixed to the top or side of a building. And you going to have many of these smaller cells around cities for example Sort of many many transmitting much stronger signals over a shorter range
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So how does the sort of implementation of 5G across the world but especially say in China or the United States, cause this feud between the U.S. and Huawei and China to escalate?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So right now there's this debate over who builds out those 5G networks, you know, who's going to create the equipment that goes in those different cell boxes. And so we're at kind of this critical point as these networks are just getting started where the companies that build them out are kind of going to be locked in in many ways.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, we also have things like the trade talks. We have broader concerns about China's efforts to dominate the globe, particularly when it comes to technology and innovation. And that's also, you know, part of what's fueling this debate.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I think there's a real fear that China could pull ahead of the United States on this and that there will be consequences for that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the security concerns with China? What's the U.S. most fearful of there? if China, say, implements 5G networks here?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So, you know, for these 5G networks to work, a lot of data, a lot of telecommunications or, you know, phone communications is going to be transmitted across them. And so that would include sensitive information. For the individual, it could be things like private phone calls or how you're using your computer or your mobile phone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For businesses, it could be transmitting, you know, sensitive information about their company, or it could be kind of controlling devices within their organization, including big machinery in their manufacturing facilities.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And for the government, it includes transmitting sensitive information, whether that's defense information or just any sort of federal information. And so there are concerns among U.S. officials that if Huawei has built out these networks and they have strong ties to the Chinese government, the government could essentially use those networks to gather that information, to effectively spy on the U.S. government or U.S. citizens.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There is some legitimacy to that. There are concerns about security laws in China, for example, that require companies to provide information to intelligence officials.
--:-- Stephen Overley: Traditionally, China has been much more involved in its economy and its big companies, sometimes owning big stakes in those companies. I think that is what's fueling a lot of the national security concerns about Huawei.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And how is the U.S. acting on those concerns?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So the U.S. has taken some pretty bold steps. So last year, Congress passed a defense spending bill. And within that legislation, they effectively barred federal agencies from using Huawei's technology. And they barred those agencies from using contractors that use Huawei technology.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow. Yeah. And the U.S. is the largest consumer, certainly in the country, if not the world. The U.S. government is the largest consumer in the country, if not the world. And so that's a lot of agencies and a lot of companies now in the United States that can't use Huawei technology or ZTE technology, again, another Chinese telecom provider.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And so that was a pretty significant step It really limits the business that these companies can do in the United States.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Trump administration is rumored to be looking at other actions they could take against Huawei, against ZTE. But, you know, for right now, this act by Congress is probably the most significant step.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And there are lawsuits, right? What's happening there?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One of the real points of tension recently has been a lawsuit that – two lawsuits actually that the Justice Department here has filed against Huawei and against one of its executives arguing that the company has violated U.S. sanctions against Iran and that the company has stolen intellectual property from T-Mobile specifically but from U.S. companies.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And these lawsuits, which were filed at the end of January, have essentially taken what's mostly been a legislative debate and kind of an economic debate and has now dragged it into the courts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's one of the key reasons that I think Huawei has been defending itself much more vocally lately. You know, after these lawsuits were filed, for example, Huawei's founder, who's typically, you know, pretty private and quiet person, gave a couple of interviews to Western media defending the company, saying it's not a tool for Chinese spying and that, you know, the company is being inappropriately maligned by the U.S. government.
--:-- Stephen Overley: The Chinese government has clearly said that it won't ask companies to install backdoors. And Huawei will not do it either. Our sales revenue is now hundreds of billions of dollars. We are not going to risk the disgust of our country and our customers all over the world because of something like that. We will lose all our business, and then we would not be able to repay the banks. I'm not going to take that risk. I said I would shut the company down also to express a kind of determination. We will not do this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, even more recently than that, Huawei has hit back with a lawsuit of its own, sort of essentially accusing Congress of behaving unconstitutionally when it banned Huawei's technology from federal agencies, saying that Congress doesn't have the ability to penalize a specific company when that company has not actually been found guilty of any wrongdoing.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I object to what the US has done This kind of politically motivated act is not acceptable The US likes to sanction others whenever there an issue They use such methods We object to this But now that we gone down this path we let the courts settle it
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we got Huawei and China flexing on one end and the United States flexing on the other. Where does this go?
--:-- Stephen Overley: Well, I think it's important to note that this is not a debate that's limited just to the United States. Really, the whole world has been pulled into this, partially because these 5G networks are going to be global.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, so the past few days at this point in the program, I've had Luke Vanderplug on. He's a Today Explained producer to talk about his KiwiCo experience because since he's sort of young, I took our project that KiwiCo sent us and showed it to Luke and recorded his reaction. But Luke never actually fulfilled or built the project.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize how often they are actually relying on these telecommunication networks now more than ever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when you're in your car, for example, and you're trying to use your phone, you know, chances are you don't have Wi-Fi in your car. You're relying on – or when you're taking the train or in more situations, you'll encounter where you want to use your phone. You want to transfer data and Wi-Fi may not be available.
--:-- Stephen Overley: So one of the reasons 5G is such a significant update is it's going to be much faster than 4G, which is what we have in a lot of places now. Like how much faster? About 100 times. 100 times faster than what we have now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So how does the sort of implementation of 5G across the world but especially say in China or the United States, cause this feud between the U.S. and Huawei and China to escalate?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So right now there's this debate over who builds out those 5G networks, you know, who's going to create the equipment that goes in those different cell boxes. And so we're at kind of this critical point as these networks are just getting started where the companies that build them out are kind of going to be locked in in many ways.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, we also have things like the trade talks. We have broader concerns about China's efforts to dominate the globe, particularly when it comes to technology and innovation. And that's also, you know, part of what's fueling this debate.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I think there's a real fear that China could pull ahead of the United States on this and that there will be consequences for that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the security concerns with China? What's the U.S. most fearful of there? if China, say, implements 5G networks here?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So, you know, for these 5G networks to work, a lot of data, a lot of telecommunications or, you know, phone communications is going to be transmitted across them. And so that would include sensitive information. For the individual, it could be things like private phone calls or how you're using your computer or your mobile phone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For businesses, it could be transmitting, you know, sensitive information about their company, or it could be kind of controlling devices within their organization, including big machinery in their manufacturing facilities.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And for the government, it includes transmitting sensitive information, whether that's defense information or just any sort of federal information. And so there are concerns among U.S. officials that if Huawei has built out these networks and they have strong ties to the Chinese government, the government could essentially use those networks to gather that information, to effectively spy on the U.S. government or U.S. citizens.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There is some legitimacy to that. There are concerns about security laws in China, for example, that require companies to provide information to intelligence officials.
--:-- Stephen Overley: Traditionally, China has been much more involved in its economy and its big companies, sometimes owning big stakes in those companies. I think that is what's fueling a lot of the national security concerns about Huawei.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And how is the U.S. acting on those concerns?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So the U.S. has taken some pretty bold steps. So last year, Congress passed a defense spending bill. And within that legislation, they effectively barred federal agencies from using Huawei's technology. And they barred those agencies from using contractors that use Huawei technology.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow. Yeah. And the U.S. is the largest consumer, certainly in the country, if not the world. The U.S. government is the largest consumer in the country, if not the world. And so that's a lot of agencies and a lot of companies now in the United States that can't use Huawei technology or ZTE technology, again, another Chinese telecom provider.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And so that was a pretty significant step It really limits the business that these companies can do in the United States.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Trump administration is rumored to be looking at other actions they could take against Huawei, against ZTE. But, you know, for right now, this act by Congress is probably the most significant step.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And there are lawsuits, right? What's happening there?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One of the real points of tension recently has been a lawsuit that – two lawsuits actually that the Justice Department here has filed against Huawei and against one of its executives arguing that the company has violated U.S. sanctions against Iran and that the company has stolen intellectual property from T-Mobile specifically but from U.S. companies.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And these lawsuits, which were filed at the end of January, have essentially taken what's mostly been a legislative debate and kind of an economic debate and has now dragged it into the courts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's one of the key reasons that I think Huawei has been defending itself much more vocally lately. You know, after these lawsuits were filed, for example, Huawei's founder, who's typically, you know, pretty private and quiet person, gave a couple of interviews to Western media defending the company, saying it's not a tool for Chinese spying and that, you know, the company is being inappropriately maligned by the U.S. government.
--:-- Stephen Overley: The Chinese government has clearly said that it won't ask companies to install backdoors. And Huawei will not do it either. Our sales revenue is now hundreds of billions of dollars. We are not going to risk the disgust of our country and our customers all over the world because of something like that. We will lose all our business, and then we would not be able to repay the banks. I'm not going to take that risk. I said I would shut the company down also to express a kind of determination. We will not do this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, even more recently than that, Huawei has hit back with a lawsuit of its own, sort of essentially accusing Congress of behaving unconstitutionally when it banned Huawei's technology from federal agencies, saying that Congress doesn't have the ability to penalize a specific company when that company has not actually been found guilty of any wrongdoing.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I object to what the US has done This kind of politically motivated act is not acceptable The US likes to sanction others whenever there an issue They use such methods We object to this But now that we gone down this path we let the courts settle it
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we got Huawei and China flexing on one end and the United States flexing on the other. Where does this go?
--:-- Stephen Overley: Well, I think it's important to note that this is not a debate that's limited just to the United States. Really, the whole world has been pulled into this, partially because these 5G networks are going to be global.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, so the past few days at this point in the program, I've had Luke Vanderplug on. He's a Today Explained producer to talk about his KiwiCo experience because since he's sort of young, I took our project that KiwiCo sent us and showed it to Luke and recorded his reaction. But Luke never actually fulfilled or built the project.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize how often they are actually relying on these telecommunication networks now more than ever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when you're in your car, for example, and you're trying to use your phone, you know, chances are you don't have Wi-Fi in your car. You're relying on – or when you're taking the train or in more situations, you'll encounter where you want to use your phone. You want to transfer data and Wi-Fi may not be available.
--:-- Stephen Overley: So one of the reasons 5G is such a significant update is it's going to be much faster than 4G, which is what we have in a lot of places now. Like how much faster? About 100 times. 100 times faster than what we have now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So how does the sort of implementation of 5G across the world but especially say in China or the United States, cause this feud between the U.S. and Huawei and China to escalate?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So right now there's this debate over who builds out those 5G networks, you know, who's going to create the equipment that goes in those different cell boxes. And so we're at kind of this critical point as these networks are just getting started where the companies that build them out are kind of going to be locked in in many ways.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, we also have things like the trade talks. We have broader concerns about China's efforts to dominate the globe, particularly when it comes to technology and innovation. And that's also, you know, part of what's fueling this debate.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I think there's a real fear that China could pull ahead of the United States on this and that there will be consequences for that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the security concerns with China? What's the U.S. most fearful of there? if China, say, implements 5G networks here?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So, you know, for these 5G networks to work, a lot of data, a lot of telecommunications or, you know, phone communications is going to be transmitted across them. And so that would include sensitive information. For the individual, it could be things like private phone calls or how you're using your computer or your mobile phone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For businesses, it could be transmitting, you know, sensitive information about their company, or it could be kind of controlling devices within their organization, including big machinery in their manufacturing facilities.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And for the government, it includes transmitting sensitive information, whether that's defense information or just any sort of federal information. And so there are concerns among U.S. officials that if Huawei has built out these networks and they have strong ties to the Chinese government, the government could essentially use those networks to gather that information, to effectively spy on the U.S. government or U.S. citizens.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There is some legitimacy to that. There are concerns about security laws in China, for example, that require companies to provide information to intelligence officials.
--:-- Stephen Overley: Traditionally, China has been much more involved in its economy and its big companies, sometimes owning big stakes in those companies. I think that is what's fueling a lot of the national security concerns about Huawei.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And how is the U.S. acting on those concerns?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So the U.S. has taken some pretty bold steps. So last year, Congress passed a defense spending bill. And within that legislation, they effectively barred federal agencies from using Huawei's technology. And they barred those agencies from using contractors that use Huawei technology.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow. Yeah. And the U.S. is the largest consumer, certainly in the country, if not the world. The U.S. government is the largest consumer in the country, if not the world. And so that's a lot of agencies and a lot of companies now in the United States that can't use Huawei technology or ZTE technology, again, another Chinese telecom provider.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And so that was a pretty significant step It really limits the business that these companies can do in the United States.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Trump administration is rumored to be looking at other actions they could take against Huawei, against ZTE. But, you know, for right now, this act by Congress is probably the most significant step.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And there are lawsuits, right? What's happening there?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One of the real points of tension recently has been a lawsuit that – two lawsuits actually that the Justice Department here has filed against Huawei and against one of its executives arguing that the company has violated U.S. sanctions against Iran and that the company has stolen intellectual property from T-Mobile specifically but from U.S. companies.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And these lawsuits, which were filed at the end of January, have essentially taken what's mostly been a legislative debate and kind of an economic debate and has now dragged it into the courts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's one of the key reasons that I think Huawei has been defending itself much more vocally lately. You know, after these lawsuits were filed, for example, Huawei's founder, who's typically, you know, pretty private and quiet person, gave a couple of interviews to Western media defending the company, saying it's not a tool for Chinese spying and that, you know, the company is being inappropriately maligned by the U.S. government.
--:-- Stephen Overley: The Chinese government has clearly said that it won't ask companies to install backdoors. And Huawei will not do it either. Our sales revenue is now hundreds of billions of dollars. We are not going to risk the disgust of our country and our customers all over the world because of something like that. We will lose all our business, and then we would not be able to repay the banks. I'm not going to take that risk. I said I would shut the company down also to express a kind of determination. We will not do this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, even more recently than that, Huawei has hit back with a lawsuit of its own, sort of essentially accusing Congress of behaving unconstitutionally when it banned Huawei's technology from federal agencies, saying that Congress doesn't have the ability to penalize a specific company when that company has not actually been found guilty of any wrongdoing.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I object to what the US has done This kind of politically motivated act is not acceptable The US likes to sanction others whenever there an issue They use such methods We object to this But now that we gone down this path we let the courts settle it
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we got Huawei and China flexing on one end and the United States flexing on the other. Where does this go?
--:-- Stephen Overley: Well, I think it's important to note that this is not a debate that's limited just to the United States. Really, the whole world has been pulled into this, partially because these 5G networks are going to be global.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, so the past few days at this point in the program, I've had Luke Vanderplug on. He's a Today Explained producer to talk about his KiwiCo experience because since he's sort of young, I took our project that KiwiCo sent us and showed it to Luke and recorded his reaction. But Luke never actually fulfilled or built the project.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize how often they are actually relying on these telecommunication networks now more than ever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when you're in your car, for example, and you're trying to use your phone, you know, chances are you don't have Wi-Fi in your car. You're relying on – or when you're taking the train or in more situations, you'll encounter where you want to use your phone. You want to transfer data and Wi-Fi may not be available.
--:-- Stephen Overley: So one of the reasons 5G is such a significant update is it's going to be much faster than 4G, which is what we have in a lot of places now. Like how much faster? About 100 times. 100 times faster than what we have now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So how does the sort of implementation of 5G across the world but especially say in China or the United States, cause this feud between the U.S. and Huawei and China to escalate?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So right now there's this debate over who builds out those 5G networks, you know, who's going to create the equipment that goes in those different cell boxes. And so we're at kind of this critical point as these networks are just getting started where the companies that build them out are kind of going to be locked in in many ways.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, we also have things like the trade talks. We have broader concerns about China's efforts to dominate the globe, particularly when it comes to technology and innovation. And that's also, you know, part of what's fueling this debate.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I think there's a real fear that China could pull ahead of the United States on this and that there will be consequences for that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the security concerns with China? What's the U.S. most fearful of there? if China, say, implements 5G networks here?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So, you know, for these 5G networks to work, a lot of data, a lot of telecommunications or, you know, phone communications is going to be transmitted across them. And so that would include sensitive information. For the individual, it could be things like private phone calls or how you're using your computer or your mobile phone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For businesses, it could be transmitting, you know, sensitive information about their company, or it could be kind of controlling devices within their organization, including big machinery in their manufacturing facilities.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And for the government, it includes transmitting sensitive information, whether that's defense information or just any sort of federal information. And so there are concerns among U.S. officials that if Huawei has built out these networks and they have strong ties to the Chinese government, the government could essentially use those networks to gather that information, to effectively spy on the U.S. government or U.S. citizens.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There is some legitimacy to that. There are concerns about security laws in China, for example, that require companies to provide information to intelligence officials.
--:-- Stephen Overley: Traditionally, China has been much more involved in its economy and its big companies, sometimes owning big stakes in those companies. I think that is what's fueling a lot of the national security concerns about Huawei.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And how is the U.S. acting on those concerns?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So the U.S. has taken some pretty bold steps. So last year, Congress passed a defense spending bill. And within that legislation, they effectively barred federal agencies from using Huawei's technology. And they barred those agencies from using contractors that use Huawei technology.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wow. Yeah. And the U.S. is the largest consumer, certainly in the country, if not the world. The U.S. government is the largest consumer in the country, if not the world. And so that's a lot of agencies and a lot of companies now in the United States that can't use Huawei technology or ZTE technology, again, another Chinese telecom provider.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And so that was a pretty significant step It really limits the business that these companies can do in the United States.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Trump administration is rumored to be looking at other actions they could take against Huawei, against ZTE. But, you know, for right now, this act by Congress is probably the most significant step.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And there are lawsuits, right? What's happening there?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One of the real points of tension recently has been a lawsuit that – two lawsuits actually that the Justice Department here has filed against Huawei and against one of its executives arguing that the company has violated U.S. sanctions against Iran and that the company has stolen intellectual property from T-Mobile specifically but from U.S. companies.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And these lawsuits, which were filed at the end of January, have essentially taken what's mostly been a legislative debate and kind of an economic debate and has now dragged it into the courts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's one of the key reasons that I think Huawei has been defending itself much more vocally lately. You know, after these lawsuits were filed, for example, Huawei's founder, who's typically, you know, pretty private and quiet person, gave a couple of interviews to Western media defending the company, saying it's not a tool for Chinese spying and that, you know, the company is being inappropriately maligned by the U.S. government.
--:-- Stephen Overley: The Chinese government has clearly said that it won't ask companies to install backdoors. And Huawei will not do it either. Our sales revenue is now hundreds of billions of dollars. We are not going to risk the disgust of our country and our customers all over the world because of something like that. We will lose all our business, and then we would not be able to repay the banks. I'm not going to take that risk. I said I would shut the company down also to express a kind of determination. We will not do this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, even more recently than that, Huawei has hit back with a lawsuit of its own, sort of essentially accusing Congress of behaving unconstitutionally when it banned Huawei's technology from federal agencies, saying that Congress doesn't have the ability to penalize a specific company when that company has not actually been found guilty of any wrongdoing.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I object to what the US has done This kind of politically motivated act is not acceptable The US likes to sanction others whenever there an issue They use such methods We object to this But now that we gone down this path we let the courts settle it
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we got Huawei and China flexing on one end and the United States flexing on the other. Where does this go?
--:-- Stephen Overley: Well, I think it's important to note that this is not a debate that's limited just to the United States. Really, the whole world has been pulled into this, partially because these 5G networks are going to be global.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, so the past few days at this point in the program, I've had Luke Vanderplug on. He's a Today Explained producer to talk about his KiwiCo experience because since he's sort of young, I took our project that KiwiCo sent us and showed it to Luke and recorded his reaction. But Luke never actually fulfilled or built the project.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize how often they are actually relying on these telecommunication networks now more than ever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when you're in your car, for example, and you're trying to use your phone, you know, chances are you don't have Wi-Fi in your car. You're relying on – or when you're taking the train or in more situations, you'll encounter where you want to use your phone. You want to transfer data and Wi-Fi may not be available.
--:-- Stephen Overley: So one of the reasons 5G is such a significant update is it's going to be much faster than 4G, which is what we have in a lot of places now. Like how much faster? About 100 times. 100 times faster than what we have now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So how does the sort of implementation of 5G across the world but especially say in China or the United States, cause this feud between the U.S. and Huawei and China to escalate?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So right now there's this debate over who builds out those 5G networks, you know, who's going to create the equipment that goes in those different cell boxes. And so we're at kind of this critical point as these networks are just getting started where the companies that build them out are kind of going to be locked in in many ways.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, we also have things like the trade talks. We have broader concerns about China's efforts to dominate the globe, particularly when it comes to technology and innovation. And that's also, you know, part of what's fueling this debate.
--:-- Stephen Overley: I think there's a real fear that China could pull ahead of the United States on this and that there will be consequences for that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the security concerns with China? What's the U.S. most fearful of there? if China, say, implements 5G networks here?
--:-- Stephen Overley: So, you know, for these 5G networks to work, a lot of data, a lot of telecommunications or, you know, phone communications is going to be transmitted across them. And so that would include sensitive information. For the individual, it could be things like private phone calls or how you're using your computer or your mobile phone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For businesses, it could be transmitting, you know, sensitive information about their company, or it could be kind of controlling devices within their organization, including big machinery in their manufacturing facilities.
--:-- Stephen Overley: And for the government, it includes transmitting sensitive information, whether that's defense information or just any sort of federal
