--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's been six months since Russia dramatically escalated its war with Ukraine, and there appears to be no end in sight.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The State Department is saying it has information that Russia will increase its attacks on Ukraine in the week ahead.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this whole time, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has been asking for escalation. He wants the United States to declare Russia a state sponsor of terror.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And now he's got the unanimous backing of the United States Senate and Nancy Pelosi, but President Biden and Secretary of State Blinken are holding back.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The case for and the case against declaring Russia a state sponsor of terror coming up on Today Explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into, don't you know?
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained, Sean Rameswaram here with Delaney Simon.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: She's a senior analyst at the International Crisis Group.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's a think tank dedicated to preventing wars.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Delaney's going to help us understand the gravity of declaring Russia a state sponsor of terror, a designation she thinks is a bad idea.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: There have been calls that have been sort of increasing in weight over the past several months, starting as early as April, for Russia to be designated as a state sponsor of terrorism.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The calls initiated with President Zelensky asking the Secretary of State to designate Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: President Zelensky, in a call to President Biden, asked the president to declare Russia a state sponsor of terror.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Russia must be recognized as a state sponsor of terrorism.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And since April, it's just gathered momentum.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: There have been politicians from other countries calling for this designation.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Latvian MPs have declared Russia a state sponsor of terrorism, saying its invasion of Ukraine amounted to genocide.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The Ukrainian parliament has been lobbying Congress in the United States to make this designation.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The Senate issued a resolution calling on the secretary of state to designate Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The United States Senate, all 100 members, are urging the Biden administration to designate Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And then recently, the House of Representatives introduced a bill that would designate Russia as a state sponsor of terrorism.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The Speaker of the House of Representatives also called the designation long overdue.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: If Russia is not listed as a state sponsor of terrorism, tear up the list.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: So there's been a lot of pressure on Secretary Blinken, but so far he's resisted pressure to make the designation.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: In terms of other designations based on actions that Russia is taking, we are and we will look at everything.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: He recognizes the horrific incidents of war crimes that have happened in Ukraine.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: More than 50 innocent people trying to flee the fighting, killed in a Russian missile attack on a crowded train station.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Among the first responders, investigators gathering evidence to determine if this is a war crime.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: He recognizes the pressure to put as much pressure on Russia as possible to stop Russia's onslaught on Ukraine, to put an end to the horrific war crimes we're seeing.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: I think he recognizes that this designation actually would be counterproductive and could have real costs, not just on U.S.-Russia relations, but also on multilateral relations in multilateral institutions more broadly.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And then in addition to that, I think he also recognizes that it could have real costs on Ukraine and on efforts to end the war there.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Let's dial it back a second here and just talk about what it means to designate a country as a state sponsor of terror.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: What does that do?
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The designation triggers basically two separate buckets of law.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: One is sanctions, and one relates to sovereign immunity of Russia.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: So on the sanctions side, the state sponsor of terrorism designation triggers export controls for dual use items.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: So that's items that have both civilian and military uses.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: It also restricts access to debt relief and international financing.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: It also prompts some other restrictions, and it's a little bit difficult to put your finger on these because they're not specified in the statutes that underpin this designation that cumulatively become sort of comprehensive sanctions that target entire economies or entire populations.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Okay, so that's bucket one.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: A whole lot of additional sanction-y stuff kicks in when you're designated a state sponsor of terror.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Bucket two?
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--:-- Delaney Simon: You have sovereign immunity.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And so most states, all states that aren't state sponsors of terror, are entitled to immunity under U.S. law, which basically means that a U.S. court can't involve a state in a prosecution.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: So like I'm a U.S. citizen. I can't take, I don't know, Germany or the United Kingdom to court in the U.S.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: But a state sponsor of terrorism designation limits that sovereign immunity.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: It means that a U national or U government employee or U contractor or U service member can sue the designated country for certain offenses
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--:-- Delaney Simon: So what interesting in this case and in the other state sponsor of terrorism cases is that assets of that state are already frozen because of U.S. sanctions.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And it's possible for me, if I win my case and I'm suing the state, to have the damages be distributed through those blocked or frozen assets.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Okay, bucket two, your sovereign immunity is limited, opens you up to lawsuits losing even more money.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: In addition to those penalties, the designation can also result in a range of other nebulous effects.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And part of the reason why the effects are so nebulous is because the state sponsor of terrorism designation is so tied up with this idea of stigma.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And this is in part because the U.S. government has used this designation on countries that are its enemies, countries that are considered pariahs.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And so the designation in and of itself can prompt this chilling effect.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: I mean, you're already seeing this a little bit in Russia, where companies are pulling out of Russia just because the reputational risks of engaging with Russia are so high.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: In Money Watch, a mass exodus of major international companies is underway in Russia following its invasion of Ukraine.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The number of companies added to the list is growing by the hour.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: I think with this state sponsor of terrorism designation, you may see, as you have in other countries, that stigma getting even bigger because a state is linked to terrorism and therefore the stigma is bigger.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: So what we've seen in other countries is that firms will just stop engaging with the state sponsor of terror, even if technically their engagement is allowed.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All right. So on top of bucket one sanctions and bucket two limits on your sovereign immunity, you've got bucket three, the nebulous stuff, serious stigma.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Let's talk about the countries that are currently designated state sponsors of terror by the United States.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The states that are currently on are Syria, Iran, North Korea and Cuba.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: There are so many other sanctions on these states and already they're engaged in behavior that's made them pariahs.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The U.S. does not have diplomatic relations with those countries.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: It doesn't have multifaceted relations with those countries.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The way that the U.S. engages with those countries is very different to the way that the U.S. engages with Russia.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The measure effectively prevents anyone around the world from doing business with Syrian officials or government institutions.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: None of those countries are permanent members of the Security Council.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: None of those countries are involved in the OSCE.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe is the world's largest regional security organization.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: None of those countries are involved in complicated peace discussions with international stakeholders, for instance, on Georgia, on Libya, on Mali.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And so the United States has a very different relationship with those countries than it does with Russia.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So how would designating Russia a state sponsor of terror, as opposed to, say, an Iran or a North Korea or a Cuba or a Syria, affect Russia's standing in the world as well as the United States' relationship with Russia?
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--:-- Delaney Simon: It's safe to assume that the designation would be deeply insulting to Moscow.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: One of the legal requirements for the rescission of the designation is regime change.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: I think because it's baked into the laws that underpin the state sponsor of terrorism designation, President Putin would probably regard the move as an overt call for change in Russia's government.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And as we know, President Biden has explicitly said that he's not looking to force President Putin from power.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: It wouldn't be surprising to see Putin linking the designation with that explicit call.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Which would what? Be an escalation?
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Oh, yeah. Something that the United States has done well and carefully throughout this whole war in Ukraine is to contain the U.S.-Russia relationship and prevent any kind of escalation, which could, frankly, be extremely damaging, unthinkable to global peace and security.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And that's why Blinken and Biden haven't taken this step, even though it sounds like Congress is into it.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: I think that's part of the reason.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: I mean, I think there are also other effects that are concerning.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: There would be lawsuits in U.S. courts pursued by U.S. citizens against Russia.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Those claims might detract from an eventual peace settlement and could also detract from potential damages or reparations or some post-war settlement that Ukrainians could get when there is a moment for negotiations.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: It's important to arm the Ukrainians with as much as we can.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And I would be worried that these cases would take away leverage when a peace negotiation comes into play.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: After we speak to you, we're going to speak to a Ukrainian parliamentarian about why she thinks this should happen.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you were speaking to someone in Ukraine who said, my family's fled the country, my friends have died, I don't know where members of my family are right now, they're fighting this war with Russia, and they told you about the atrocities they'd seen or heard about, what would you say to them as to why this shouldn't happen?
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--:-- Delaney Simon: I'm glad that you asked that question because I really don't want it to sound like my arguments would be not in support of the people of Ukraine.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Actually, the reason why I'm arguing against a state sponsor of terror designation is for the people of Ukraine.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And I know it seems counterintuitive, but I worry that down the road, this will make it harder to end the war.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: We've seen in other cases how difficult it is to remove this designation.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: I mean, sanctions in general are notoriously hard to ratchet down.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: They're normally ratcheted up, but they're hard to remove.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And a state sponsor of terrorism designation is really hard.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Sudan is a great case of a country where all comprehensive economic restrictions were lifted in Sudan.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: As you see, the American and Sudanese flags are flowing in a spontaneous, popular, joyful reaction.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: This is an indication that the sanctions have had a heavy toll on the people and the economy.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: This particular designation was so sticky that it took three years for it to be removed.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And I'm convinced that if Russia were designated as a state sponsor of terrorism and negotiations were to happen related to the war in Ukraine, Russia would ask for the designation to be lifted
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--:-- Delaney Simon: But for a whole lot of reasons I think it would be difficult to lift the designation for one of these designations to be lifted
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--:-- Delaney Simon: There two routes
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--:-- Delaney Simon: The first route is the president has to submit a report to Congress that says that the state has undergone a fundamental change in leadership and policy, one, ceased supporting acts of international terrorism, two, and provided assurances that it will not abet such acts in the future, three,
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--:-- Delaney Simon: And then the other route is that the president has to confirm that the state has, one, refrained from supporting international terrorism during the preceding six-month period, and two, provided assurances that it will not resume supporting them in the future.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: When there is a negotiation about ending the war in Ukraine, it's hard for me to see Russia fulfilling any of those criteria.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: I mean, fundamental change in leadership is very unlikely.
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--:-- Delaney Simon: Can you imagine Russia providing assurances that it will not resume supporting terrorism when it doesn't agree with the reasons why the designation was put in place in the first place?
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--:-- Delaney Simon: It's just hard for me to see.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: After we speak to Delaney Simon, we're going to speak to Kira Rudyk, a member of Ukraine's parliament.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Kira Rudyk thinks Ukrainians and the rest of the world have got nothing to lose in declaring Russia a terrorist state.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: This is one of the key sanctions, key statements that need to be made, not only in the United States, but also in other jurisdictions.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: Why it is so important is it provides secondhand sanctions.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: So right now, when European countries, Britain, US, are cutting Russia off the markets, Russia is easily finding the new ones.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: Look at the South American countries, look at the African countries, Asian countries, and it will continue being a problem because Russia will always have somebody else who will give them a hand.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: Acknowledging them as a state sponsor of terrorism creates this status of non-handshakeable country.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: So everyone who will be doing business with Russia, who will continue being a provider, who will be doing the export to Russia, will also be a subject to the sanctions from the U.S. side.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And I believe it will have incredibly strong impact, even on the political level.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: My main direction of international work right now is unfreezing of the seized Russian assets in different countries and making them being used on behalf of Ukraine or to the support of Ukraine.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: If the country is a state sponsor of terrorism, then the central bank assets can be seized and used.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And this is why we need this legal background.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We need this statement because then we can work on top of it.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And this is why we are calling for U.S. Congress.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We are calling for Biden to to finally make this decision
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We spoke with a guest from the International Crisis Group and they seem to think along with President Biden and perhaps Secretary of State Blinken that this designation of Russia as a state sponsor of terror could make it more difficult to negotiate a peace deal for Ukraine could make Russia less willing to participate in peace negotiations with Ukraine
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: What do you think of that argument?
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: It hurts me because it implies that we will be in the peaceful negotiations with Russia without an appropriate amount of security guarantees.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: Look, I have been to Bucha after it was liberated the first day.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: I have seen the road covered with bodies.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: I have seen female bodies that were trying to be burned to cover for what happened to them.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We have seen our people being killed, tortured, raped.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And we cannot imagine having like some peaceful deal with Russia without knowing that it would not be repeated.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: The war did not start on February 24th.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: It started eight years ago, and we know for sure what Russia is capable of.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We know that they are not keeping their word, and we know that all negotiations, all the deals with them, they are just useless.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: They are not even worth the paper that they are written on.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And only way, only way for us to get into any deal with Russia is to know who is vouching for them.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: Who are the world leaders who will say, okay, so let's make this deal.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: But if Russia attacks again, then what?
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And so then the argument saying, OK, we should let ourselves have this space to negotiate with Russia is absolutely cruel because we do not need this argument.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We need an idea of how the world security will look like and how we are getting the protection.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: Let's work right now on using Putin's money to cover for his crimes.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: It's so unfair that taxpayers of the country that are our allies should be paying for what Putin is doing out of their pockets.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: And if for this to happen, we need to acknowledge Russia as state sponsor of terrorism, then let's do it.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How about the argument that designating Russia a state sponsor of terror would be viewed by Putin as an escalation of this war, would be viewed as an escalation from the United States, and perhaps would make him feel even more isolated and thus perhaps even more free to escalate the violence, the rape, the brutality in Ukraine.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: So what do you think he will do?
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: What should we be afraid of?
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: My nation and my people suffered every single possible crime on the war crimes list right now.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: I am so upset that everybody is talking about what Putin thinks, what Putin feels, what Putin will do and when do we should be thinking about what we are going to do, what the United States are going to do, what our allies are going to do.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: The whole world was watching how my country was being torn apart for eight years.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: And right now there is still this saying, oh, so whatever we will do, it will make Putin feel more free.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: What else do you think he will do?
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's our fight.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: We are taking it and we are asking you guys, we are asking President Biden, saying, please do that.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: Because it's us who are victims.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: We know that we will be fighting this fight for a longer time.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: And we are saying, help us to push it.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: If he starts attacking us with different other weapons, it will be us who will be dying for that, right?
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: We are saying that we are taking this risk.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: We are saying, okay, let's go ahead.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: You know how they're calling what they are doing in Ukraine? Salami technique.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: When they are cutting piece by piece.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: It's our country that he's treating as a piece of meat.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: It's our people, men and women and children and elderly who are being treated as pieces of meat.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: And this is absolutely unacceptable.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: How we can live in the world where he can still do what he's doing and everybody's just saying, yeah, well, we should not be probably annoying him.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I will ask you, so what's the plan then?
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Kira Rudyk: Because I have talked to almost everyone and what I have not heard is a plan.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained, we wanted to hear an argument for declaring Russia a terrorist state.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we turn to Keev.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Kira Rudik, member of Ukrainian parliament and leader of the Holos party.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As you'll hear, Kira Rudik thinks Ukrainians and the rest of the world have got nothing to lose in declaring Russia a terrorist state.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Absolutely.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is one of the key sanctions, key statements that need to be made, not only in the United States, but also in other jurisdictions.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why it is so important is it provides secondhand sanctions.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So right now, when European countries, Britain, US, are cutting Russia off the markets, Russia is easily finding the new ones.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Look at the South American countries, look at the African countries, Asian countries, and it will continue being a problem because Russia will always have somebody else who will give them a hand.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Acknowledging them as a state sponsor of terrorism creates this status of non-handshakeable country.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So everyone who will be doing business with Russia, who will continue being a provider, who will be doing the export to Russia, will also be a subject to the sanctions from the U.S. side.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I believe it will have incredibly strong impact, even on the political level.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My main direction of international work right now is unfreezing of the seized Russian assets in different countries and making them being used on behalf of Ukraine or to the support of Ukraine.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If the country is a state sponsor of terrorism, then the central bank assets can be seized and used.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this is why we need this legal background.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We need this statement because then we can work on top of it.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this is why we are calling for U.S. Congress.
--:-- [Music continues to fade out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We are calling for Biden to to finally make this decision
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We spoke with a guest from the International Crisis Group and they seem to think along with President Biden and perhaps Secretary of State Blinken that this designation of Russia as a state sponsor of terror could make it more difficult to negotiate a peace deal for Ukraine could make Russia less willing to participate in peace negotiations with Ukraine
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: What do you think of that argument?
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: It hurts me because it implies that we will be in the peaceful negotiations with Russia without an appropriate amount of security guarantees.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: Look, I have been to Bucha after it was liberated the first day.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: I have seen the road covered with bodies.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: I have seen female bodies that were trying to be burned to cover for what happened to them.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We have seen our people being killed, tortured, raped.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And we cannot imagine having like some peaceful deal with Russia without knowing that it would not be repeated.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: The war did not start on February 24th.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: It started eight years ago, and we know for sure what Russia is capable of.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We know that they are not keeping their word, and we know that all negotiations, all the deals with them, they are just useless.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: They are not even worth the paper that they are written on.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And only way, only way for us to get into any deal with Russia is to know who is vouching for them.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: Who are the world leaders who will say, okay, so let's make this deal.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: But if Russia attacks again, then what?
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And so then the argument saying, OK, we should let ourselves have this space to negotiate with Russia is absolutely cruel because we do not need this argument.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We need an idea of how the world security will look like and how we are getting the protection.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: Let's work right now on using Putin's money to cover for his crimes.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: It's so unfair that taxpayers of the country that are our allies should be paying for what Putin is doing out of their pockets.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And if for this to happen, we need to acknowledge Russia as state sponsor of terrorism, then let's do it.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How about the argument that designating Russia a state sponsor of terror would be viewed by Putin as an escalation of this war, would be viewed as an escalation from the United States, and perhaps would make him feel even more isolated and thus perhaps even more free to escalate the violence, the rape, the brutality in Ukraine.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: So what do you think he will do?
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: What should we be afraid of?
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: My nation and my people suffered every single possible crime on the war crimes list right now.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: I am so upset that everybody is talking about what Putin thinks, what Putin feels, what Putin will do and when do we should be thinking about what we are going to do, what the United States are going to do, what our allies are going to do.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: The whole world was watching how my country was being torn apart for eight years.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And right now there is still this saying, oh, so whatever we will do, it will make Putin feel more free.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: What else do you think he will do?
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's our fight.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We are taking it and we are asking you guys, we are asking President Biden, saying, please do that.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: Because it's us who are victims.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We know that we will be fighting this fight for a longer time.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And we are saying, help us to push it.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: If he starts attacking us with different other weapons, it will be us who will be dying for that, right?
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We are saying that we are taking this risk.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: We are saying, okay, let's go ahead.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: You know how they're calling what they are doing in Ukraine? Salami technique.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: When they are cutting piece by piece.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: It's our country that he's treating as a piece of meat.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: It's our people, men and women and children and elderly who are being treated as pieces of meat.
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: And this is absolutely unacceptable.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I will ask you, so what's the plan then?
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--:-- Kira Rudyk: Because I have talked to almost everyone and what I have not heard is a plan.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained, Sean Rameswaram here with Delaney Simon.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's a think tank dedicated to preventing wars.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Delaney's going to help us understand the gravity of declaring Russia a state sponsor of terror, a designation she thinks is a bad idea.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This episode is brought to you by Adio.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Adio is an AI-native customer relationship management system built specifically