--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram here with friend of the show, host of Switched on Pop, musician-songwriter, Professor Charlie Harding.
--:-- Charlie Harding: Thanks for having me on the show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Big fan of the Eurovision Song Contest, yes?
--:-- Charlie Harding: Big fan of the Eurovision Song Contest, yes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What makes this one different for the people at home?
--:-- Charlie Harding: Well, this year's Eurovision has been embroiled in a controversy. There is no way that Israel should be able to participate. We are all Palestinians. Many countries' broadcasters, participants, and fans have called for the disqualification and boycott of Israel's participation because of the ongoing war in Gaza and the humanitarian crisis.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For people who don't pay attention to Eurovision, Charlie, can you give us the essentials here? How did it get started?
--:-- Charlie Harding: The Eurovision Song Contest is one of the biggest international song contests in the world. It started in the 1950s as a post-war institution of international cooperation between European broadcasters. The Eurovision Song Contest is not exclusively a European contest. It's actually not even a national contest. It's a contest of the European Broadcasting Union, which is an alliance of public broadcasting organizations. It represents 56 countries in the European broadcasting area, which includes parts of North Africa and the Middle East.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Can you give us some of Eurovision's greatest hits?
--:-- Charlie Harding: Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of just mostly national burgeoning pop stars all around Eurovision participants, but big names that you might have heard of. Julio Iglesias was in the 1970 competition representing Spain. Probably the biggest of all time was 1974 when Olivia Newton-John competed and ABBA won for the song Waterloo. Celine Dion actually has participated as well in 1988. She represented Switzerland because strangely you actually don't have to be from the country of origin to represent it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Who are the frontrunners in 2024?
--:-- Charlie Harding: My favorite time of year is Eurovision in pop music because I don't do sports and this is my sporting event. And actually bookies also look at this as a sport. You can bet on who is going to win. And if we look at the current bookies in the top three, Croatia, as of this moment, has a 23% chance of winning with their song Rim Tim Tagi Tim by the artist Baby Lasagna, a kitsch song about economic depravity that is causing youth emigration in Croatia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Can I give you one more? Please.
--:-- Charlie Harding: Ukraine, who won in 2022, has a, probably the best rap song ever written about Mother Teresa and Mother Mary.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This controversy really takes off when Israel submitted a song to the competition called October Rain, with lyrics making not veiled allusions to the October 7th attack on Israel by Hamas, including lyrics about the Massacreda Music Festival and metaphors of fallen IDF soldiers.
--:-- Charlie Harding: And they put the song out. Eurovision has really strict rules. Well, some would say not so strict about no politics. And so the EBU rejects the song and Israel's broadcaster says, no, we're not going to change these lyrics. This is our this is our submission.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So how do they change this song to appease Eurovision?
--:-- Charlie Harding: So the original lyrics of the song October Rain have these not very subtle allusions to the conflict. The opening line is, those that write history stand with me. A call to stand up alongside Israel. The updated lyrics in the song Hurricane are... We've gone from those that write history, stand with me, writer of my symphony, play with me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How did Israelis feel about changing the lyrics of the song, changing the message of the song?
--:-- Charlie Harding: I think that the song and its reception in Israel is as politically divided as the country. Despite these changes, many Israelis are supporting their contestant, Eden Golan, who will sing the song at this year's contest.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do these updates appease Eurovision and the nations who are upset about Israel's participation?
--:-- Charlie Harding: Yes and no. So far, there have been lots of threats of countries pulling out, but none actually have. It seems as though the show is going to go on as usual. Israel is, as of today, absolutely participating in the show, but calls for protests have risen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're not supposed to as a participant make political statements but artists from Ireland, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Switzerland, and Lithuania have released a joint statement making a call for peace, a ceasefire, return of hostages, and denouncing anti-Semitism and Islamophobia.
--:-- Charlie Harding: And as of today, it does seem as though there's sort of no formal change to the competition. The host country, Sweden, is bringing in extra police forces from Denmark and Norway to go into Malmö, a city of just 360,000 people who are expecting 100,000 folks to show up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And protests are expected. The country has raised their threat level to a 4 out of 5.
--:-- Tess Megginson: One time she did so for the Washington Post. And the takeaway from her writing is that politics at Eurovision is nothing new. Take the 90s, for example. I would argue the 1990s are actually some of the most political years of the contest.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As soon as you have the Eastern European countries start joining, hosts are talking about welcome to the rest of Europe and now we're finally unified and you have all these songs about peace and unity and breaking down walls.
--:-- Tess Megginson: And some of these do quite well at the contest, some of them don't. So in 1990, which is actually the first competition held in Eastern Europe, it's held in Zagreb, the winning entry is Italy with Insieme 1992. The kind of hook in the chorus is Unite, Unite Europe.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's kind of one of the big ones that we see and obviously gets a very good reception and wins the competition.
--:-- Tess Megginson: So it is a really beautiful time in the contest, but then also, of course, in the 90s, you have the Yugoslav Wars. The fragile peace in Yugoslavia is more fragile than ever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this is the first time that we actually see a country banned from the competition. When the Yugoslav war begins in Bosnia, Yugoslavia is banned from the contest shortly after the 1992 competition.
--:-- Tess Megginson: This is because of the siege of Sarajevo, which is when what remains of Yugoslavia occupies the city and puts it under siege.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think this is not a war, it's a genocide. I think, and I mean, we all say this is a genocide.
--:-- Tess Megginson: So this is when you see UN sanctions come against Yugoslavia, and Bosnia is actually able to participate, but Yugoslavia cannot.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This also plays out in the Eurovision Song Contest because they're still able to vote in the contest. We'll now go to Sarajevo in Bosnia, Herzegovina.
--:-- Tess Megginson: So they actually call into the contest while under siege. Wow. Good evening, Sarajevo. May we have your votes, please?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the phone line initially disconnects and it goes dead and there's just this silence that falls over the audience.
--:-- Tess Megginson: Soon they're able to reconnect. Hello Sarajevo, we're hearing you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there's a loud applause and cheering from the audience as they're able to give their points for the contest.
--:-- Tess Megginson: And it's such a beautiful moment. Amazing. I watched it. I'm shedding tears watching it, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's a really beautiful moment of solidarity for people who were at war and under occupation.
--:-- Tess Megginson: And it's something that, you know, even though it's a very political moment, it's quite a beautiful moment in the contest history.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: These political moments we're talking about, the fall, the Berlin Wall, the fall of communism, the genocide in Bosnia, they all happened on the continent of Europe.
--:-- Tess Megginson: But here now in 2024, we've got this conflict, this controversy, these calls for a boycott that relate to something happening in the Middle East.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there a precedent for something like that at Eurovision?
--:-- Tess Megginson: Yeah, boycotts in Eurovision are almost as old as the contest itself. So we start seeing them in the 1970s.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tanks of the Turkish army on the outskirts of Famagusta are about to complete their victory in Cyprus. 1975, Turkey invades Cyprus and Greece boycotts the contest.
--:-- Tess Megginson: Aha! The following year, Greece submits a song that is a very anti-war song and clearly referencing Turkey's presence in Cyprus and Turkey boycotts the contest.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Aha! Russia! And then of course Russia The European Broadcasting Union has banned Russia from participating in this year Eurovision Song Contest Russia's the big one that you see a lot in the conversation because of its invasion of Ukraine.
--:-- Tess Megginson: And, of course, it was finally banned from the competition in 2022.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're making it sound like it's kind of par for the course to have this kind of level of controversy and calls for boycotts and tensions between nations at Eurovision.
--:-- Tess Megginson: Does that make this current controversy less exceptional?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Not necessarily. I think there's also been a long history and unique history with Israel's participation in the contest.
--:-- Tess Megginson: As the first non-European country to participate in the contest, it's also had relative success. Since it's joined, it's won the contest four times and hosted it three times.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And all the way back in 1978, we start seeing these controversies arise with Israel's participation.
--:-- Tess Megginson: In 1978, they actually won the competition. Well, that's it. The winners are Israel with song number 18. That's Izar Cohen and Alpha Beta.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But in Jordan, which was a member of the EBU, although not participating in the contest, they don't air the Israel entry.
--:-- Tess Megginson: And when it becomes clear Israel's going to win the contest, they cut the broadcast short and announced Belgium as the winner in Jordan.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What? They just lied? Yep. They just fully lied to people in Jordan, said Belgium had won the contest.
--:-- Tess Megginson: I don't know when they found out that wasn't true. When they got Wikipedia. Yeah. Before pre-internet, it was a lot easier to get away with that sort of thing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How does Eurovision typically handle the boycotts and the tensions between these nations?
--:-- Tess Megginson: Not very well. Obviously, they officially market themselves as an apolitical contest. So this means that when politics enter the contest, they are not happy about it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One kind of fun example is in 2015, they introduced this, what they called anti-booing technology, so sound reducing technology. So you couldn't hear the crowd booing the Russian entry during the contest.
--:-- Tess Megginson: Are you ready? 12 points go to Russia. No surprise there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I don't think it's been used since then, but I wouldn't be surprised if they use a similar thing this year.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And another thing is fines. They do really like to fine their members.
--:-- Tess Megginson: So in 2019, when Israel hosted the contest, there was obviously large calls to boycott, to move the contest out of Israel.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the Icelandic performers actually held up Palestinian flags.
--:-- Tess Megginson: Well, we, of course, hope to see an end to the occupation as soon as possible and that peace will come. We are hopeful.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the Icelandic broadcaster ended up getting a huge fine from the EBU for doing that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you think Eurovision this year will end up transcending our current geopolitical situation?
--:-- Tess Megginson: There are a couple signs we can look for to see how Europeans are reacting to Israel's participation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The first is going to be the live audience reaction this is going to be more difficult for us to see as viewers we're probably going to have to rely on things like social media and journalists on the ground to hear how the audience is reacting to Israel participating.
--:-- Tess Megginson: But we're also going to see this maybe with the other performers if they say wave Palestinian flags like we saw in 2019.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A second thing of course is the popular vote will people vote for Israel and will this be maybe a protest vote against them?
--:-- Tess Megginson: The way we can see this is if there's a big difference between the jury vote for Israel and the popular vote, that's probably a sign that people are not voting for Israel because they don't agree with what they're doing in Gaza.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then the third thing to see is viewership, obviously. So if the boycott is effective, there'll probably be a stark decline in viewership in certain countries.
--:-- Tess Megginson: Obviously, there's other factors at play here. So if a country's participant doesn't make the finals, there could be a decline in viewership because of that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But if we see a significant decline, I would probably argue that is the boycott and it's showing how effective it can be.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, I guess we're gonna have to watch to find out.
--:-- Tess Megginson: Thanks so much, Sean.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you, Tess.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Support for Today Explained comes from Chime. Nobody likes fees and complicated banking, says Chime. And Chime gets that, says Chime. Chime is a financial technology company that says they understand that every dollar counts.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when you set up direct deposit through Chime, they say you get access to fee-free features, such as free overdraft coverage getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit so much more.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Chime says with qualifying direct deposits you can be eligible for free overdraft up to on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Plus, they say you don't need to worry about monthly fees or maintenance fees.
--:-- Haleema Shah: You can work on your financial goals through Chime today. You can open an account in two minutes at Chime.com slash explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's Chime.com slash explained. Chime feels like progress.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancor Bank N.A. or StrideBank NA. Members FDIC.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Spot me eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Timing depends on submission of payment file. Fees apply at out-of-network ATMs.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Bank ranking and number of ATMs according to U.S. News and World Report 2023. Shine, checking account required.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Every day, millions of customers engage with AI agents like me. We resolve queries fast. We work 24-7 and we're helpful, knowledgeable, and empathetic.
--:-- Haleema Shah: We're built to be the voice of the brands we serve.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Sierra is the platform for building better, more human customer experiences with AI. No hold music, no generic answers, no frustration.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Visit sierra.ai to learn more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Upwork. If you run a business, you know that scaling your business requires the right expertise at the right time.
--:-- Haleema Shah: With Upwork, you can find specialized freelancers in IT, web development, AI, design, admin support, marketing, and more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Experts who they say are ready to help you take your business to the next level.
--:-- Haleema Shah: With more than two decades of experience, Upwork has a simple and ambitious goal to pioneer a better way of working.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Companies at every stage turn to Upwork to get things done and find more flexibility in the way they staff key projects and initiatives by accessing a global marketplace full of top talent.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Plus, Upwork makes posting your job easy with no cost to join.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can register, browse freelancer profiles, get help drafting a job post, or even book a consultation.
--:-- Haleema Shah: You can visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That is Upwork.com to post your job for free and connect with top talents ready to help your business grow.
--:-- Haleema Shah: That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com, Upwork.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today explained, Tess Megginson writes about European history, including Eurovision history.
--:-- Haleema Shah: One time she did so for the Washington Post.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the takeaway from her writing is that politics at Eurovision is nothing new.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Take the 90s, for example. I would argue the 1990s are actually some of the most political years of the contest.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As soon as you have the Eastern European countries start joining, hosts are talking about welcome to the rest of Europe and now we're finally unified and you have all these songs about peace and unity and breaking down walls.
--:-- Haleema Shah: And some of these do quite well at the contest, some of them don't.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So in 1990, which is actually the first competition held in Eastern Europe, it's held in Zagreb, the winning entry is Italy with Insieme 1992.
--:-- Haleema Shah: The kind of hook in the chorus is Unite, Unite Europe.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's kind of one of the big ones that we see and obviously gets a very good reception and wins the competition.
--:-- Haleema Shah: So it is a really beautiful time in the contest, but then also, of course, in the 90s, you have the Yugoslav Wars.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The fragile peace in Yugoslavia is more fragile than ever.
--:-- Haleema Shah: And this is the first time that we actually see a country banned from the competition. When the Yugoslav war begins in Bosnia, Yugoslavia is banned from the contest shortly after the 1992 competition.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is because of the siege of Sarajevo, which is when what remains of Yugoslavia occupies the city and puts it under siege.
--:-- Haleema Shah: I think this is not a war, it's a genocide. I think, and I mean, we all say this is a genocide.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So this is when you see UN sanctions come against Yugoslavia, and Bosnia is actually able to participate, but Yugoslavia cannot.
--:-- Haleema Shah: This also plays out in the Eurovision Song Contest because they're still able to vote in the contest.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We'll now go to Sarajevo in Bosnia, Herzegovina.
--:-- Haleema Shah: So they actually call into the contest while under siege. Wow. Good evening, Sarajevo. May we have your votes, please?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the phone line initially disconnects and it goes dead and there's just this silence that falls over the audience.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Soon they're able to reconnect. Hello Sarajevo, we're hearing you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there's a loud applause and cheering from the audience as they're able to give their points for the contest.
--:-- Haleema Shah: And it's such a beautiful moment. Amazing. I watched it. I'm shedding tears watching it, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's a really beautiful moment of solidarity for people who were at war and under occupation.
--:-- Haleema Shah: And it's something that, you know, even though it's a very political moment, it's quite a beautiful moment in the contest history.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: These political moments we're talking about, the fall, the Berlin Wall, the fall of communism, the genocide in Bosnia, they all happened on the continent of Europe.
--:-- Haleema Shah: But here now in 2024, we've got this conflict, this controversy, these calls for a boycott that relate to something happening in the Middle East.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there a precedent for something like that at Eurovision?
--:-- Haleema Shah: Yeah, boycotts in Eurovision are almost as old as the contest itself. So we start seeing them in the 1970s.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tanks of the Turkish army on the outskirts of Famagusta are about to complete their victory in Cyprus. 1975, Turkey invades Cyprus and Greece boycotts the contest.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Aha! The following year, Greece submits a song that is a very anti-war song and clearly referencing Turkey's presence in Cyprus and Turkey boycotts the contest.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Aha! Russia! And then of course Russia The European Broadcasting Union has banned Russia from participating in this year Eurovision Song Contest Russia's the big one that you see a lot in the conversation because of its invasion of Ukraine.
--:-- Haleema Shah: And, of course, it was finally banned from the competition in 2022.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're making it sound like it's kind of par for the course to have this kind of level of controversy and calls for boycotts and tensions between nations at Eurovision.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Does that make this current controversy less exceptional?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Not necessarily. I think there's also been a long history and unique history with Israel's participation in the contest.
--:-- Haleema Shah: As the first non-European country to participate in the contest, it's also had relative success. Since it's joined, it's won the contest four times and hosted it three times.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And all the way back in 1978, we start seeing these controversies arise with Israel's participation.
--:-- Haleema Shah: In 1978, they actually won the competition. Well, that's it. The winners are Israel with song number 18. That's Izar Cohen and Alpha Beta.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But in Jordan, which was a member of the EBU, although not participating in the contest, they don't air the Israel entry.
--:-- Haleema Shah: And when it becomes clear Israel's going to win the contest, they cut the broadcast short and announced Belgium as the winner in Jordan.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What? They just lied? Yep. They just fully lied to people in Jordan, said Belgium had won the contest.
--:-- Haleema Shah: I don't know when they found out that wasn't true. When they got Wikipedia. Yeah. Before pre-internet, it was a lot easier to get away with that sort of thing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How does Eurovision typically handle the boycotts and the tensions between these nations?
--:-- Haleema Shah: Not very well. Obviously, they officially market themselves as an apolitical contest. So this means that when politics enter the contest, they are not happy about it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One kind of fun example is in 2015, they introduced this, what they called anti-booing technology, so sound reducing technology. So you couldn't hear the crowd booing the Russian entry during the contest.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Are you ready? 12 points go to Russia. No surprise there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I don't think it's been used since then, but I wouldn't be surprised if they use a similar thing this year.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And another thing is fines. They do really like to fine their members.
--:-- Haleema Shah: So in 2019, when Israel hosted the contest, there was obviously large calls to boycott, to move the contest out of Israel.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the Icelandic performers actually held up Palestinian flags.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Well, we, of course, hope to see an end to the occupation as soon as possible and that peace will come. We are hopeful.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the Icelandic broadcaster ended up getting a huge fine from the EBU for doing that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you think Eurovision this year will end up transcending our current geopolitical situation?
--:-- Haleema Shah: There are a couple signs we can look for to see how Europeans are reacting to Israel's participation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The first is going to be the live audience reaction this is going to be more difficult for us to see as viewers we're probably going to have to rely on things like social media and journalists on the ground to hear how the audience is reacting to Israel participating.
--:-- Haleema Shah: But we're also going to see this maybe with the other performers if they say wave Palestinian flags like we saw in 2019.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A second thing of course is the popular vote will people vote for Israel and will this be maybe a protest vote against them?
--:-- Haleema Shah: The way we can see this is if there's a big difference between the jury vote for Israel and the popular vote, that's probably a sign that people are not voting for Israel because they don't agree with what they're doing in Gaza.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then the third thing to see is viewership, obviously. So if the boycott is effective, there'll probably be a stark decline in viewership in certain countries.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Obviously, there's other factors at play here. So if a country's participant doesn't make the finals, there could be a decline in viewership because of that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But if we see a significant decline, I would probably argue that is the boycott and it's showing how effective it can be.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, I guess we're gonna have to watch to find out.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Thanks so much, Sean.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you, Tess.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Tomorrow on Today Explained, we'll have another song contest. Less political, more petty, less European, but still international. Kendrick vs. Drake.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Europa, Europa, Europa Welcome in Europa, bleib hier tot, die Dothra Europa, Europa, Europa Europa, Europa, Europa Europa, Europa, Europa Europa Ich bin in Deutschland, aber ich bin so allein The Limo Emu Liberty, Liberty.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Savings vary. Underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.
--:-- Haleema Shah: Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro? Got it from Verizon. The best 5G network in America. It never looked so good.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You look the same. But with this camera, everything looks better. Especially me.
--:-- Haleema Shah: You haven't changed your hair in 15 years. Selfies? Check, please.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: New and existing customers can get the new iPhone 17 Pro. Designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever.
--:-- Haleema Shah: With eligible phone trade-in and unlimited ultimate. Any condition guaranteed. Best 5G source route metrics in the United States, 1H, 2025.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: All rights reserved. Trade-in and additional terms apply for all offers. See Verizon.com for details.
