--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There hasn't been a lot of comedy in the news lately, just ask Jimmy Kimmel. But there was maybe one funny moment when Kash Patel approached the mic in Orem, Utah last week. He said, "Rest now, brother. We have the watch. And I'll see you in Valhalla." Valhalla, a heavenly place in Norse mythology.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As many people pointed out, this was a curious juxtaposition. Our Gujarati Indian Hindu FBI director referencing Norse mythology's heaven to say goodbye to his arch-conservative Christian friend from the Midwest of the United States, all while hanging out, you know, close to Mormon headquarters in Utah. Weird.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Kash Patel has had a very weird week. Why are you protecting pedophiles? That is maybe the most offensive thing you could say to me. We're going to tell you about it on Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. Fall is here. Might be time to find some nice new pieces you can wear again and again. With Saks Fifth Avenue, it can be a breeze to shop for your personal style.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They say they'll even let you know when arrivals from your favorite designers are in or when something you've been eyeing is back in stock. You can find inspiration for your personal style every day at Saks Fifth Avenue.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for this show comes from Strawberry.me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Or are you stuck in one you've outgrown? or never wanted in the first place? Sure, you can probably list the reasons for staying, but are they actually just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from strawberry.me help you get unstuck.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner. Go to strawberry.me slash unstuck to claim a special offer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Catch me outside, how's my day? Catch you outside? What does that mean? Today explains Sean Ramos from here with Eric Tucker, who covers the FBI for the Associated Press.
--:-- Eric Tucker: It's been a big week for his beat. Very big week. So we had two consecutive days of Kash Patel testifying before both the Senate Judiciary Committee and then the House Judiciary Committee.
--:-- Eric Tucker: Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess. And these were his first oversight hearings of his seven-month tenure. This is the first occasion for the committee to get back together since the tragic death of Charlie Kirk.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And we want to talk about what happened on Capitol Hill. But we want to start back in Utah because Kash Patel hasn't just had a big couple of days in Washington. He's had a huge week, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's right. And, you know, when you think about the shooting of Charlie Kirk, I think it's safe to say this was always going to be a very closely scrutinized investigation, not only because of the circumstances of the assassination, but also because Charlie Kirk was truly a fixture in President Donald Trump's orbit, was friends with really significant members of the administration.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And that includes FBI Director Kash Patel. And so one of the things that we saw Director Patel doing right out of the gate is getting the FBI involved. And that's in part because this appeared to be an act of politically motivated violence. And the FBI, by tradition, leads investigations into politically motivated violence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And how prominent was his involvement?
--:-- Eric Tucker: You know, so the first indication of his sort of direct involvement was a post in which he said the FBI was responding. We are closely monitoring reports of the tragic shooting involving Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University.
--:-- Eric Tucker: So that came pretty quickly. But if you fast forward the clock a couple hours later, he then made an additional, a separate post that I think really captured people's attention in which he said, quote, "The subject for the horrific shooting today that took the life of Charlie Kirk is now in custody."
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this was notable for a couple of different reasons. One, we've never had an FBI director who has been so online before and has announced investigative developments on Twitter.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And so that was unusual to happen. But the other thing that was sort of striking is that information actually turned out not to be correct.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And around the same time that he made this post, the officials in Utah, law enforcement officials and the governor on the ground, suggested that they were, in fact, still looking for the shooter.
--:-- Eric Tucker: Shortly after the shooting, we did have a suspect in custody, George Zinn, but he was released from custody after we identified that he did not match the shooting suspect and was not an accurate person of interest.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And by the end of the evening, we learned that two different people had been taken into custody, but subsequently released.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And so that became sort of an interesting development as to how did it get posted in the first place that somebody was in custody who, in fact, was not responsible for the shooting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's Kash Patel's involvement in the eventual apprehension of the suspect?
--:-- Eric Tucker: I think in this case, they really did rely on a family and the family's friends really blowing the whistle on their own child. Robinson's mother saw the photo of the shooter in the news and thought the shooter looked like her son.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So they made contact with the family friend who then began the process of contacting local law enforcement.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And so that really was the subsequent break.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One of the things that was really striking to my ears on Friday morning as we were watching the news conference was there were multiple times where Director Patel said, at my direction, XYZ happened.
--:-- Eric Tucker: At my direction, the FBI released the first set of FBI photos at approximately 8 p.m. Where at my direction, the FBI released a never-before-seen video.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, typically, that's not really the sort of credit, personal credit that an FBI director looks to take when a major accomplishment like an arrest is made.
--:-- Eric Tucker: But it seemed in that moment that it was important to the FBI director that the public understood his direct and specific role that he played and the credit that he perhaps deserved.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I would say that's not necessarily something that we've come to expect. That's not necessarily how you typically hear the top law enforcement officials describe their own actions in an investigation that frankly involved dozens and dozens and dozens of people.
--:-- Eric Tucker: I feel like over the course of this investigation in Utah, Kash Patel looks a little uncomfortable in the spotlight.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Was this his first time with this much attention on his leadership of the FBI?
--:-- Eric Tucker: There is no question that this was his biggest leadership test. He only been on the job for seven months and he actually had not really had a significant public profile prior to becoming FBI director.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He had been a podcaster for the several years leading up to his nomination by President Trump.
--:-- Eric Tucker: Hey, everybody, and welcome back to Cash's Corner. We hope everyone-
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then before that, he had been a Justice Department prosecutor and a House Intelligence committee staffer, but he was not really someone who would have been before the television cameras.
--:-- Eric Tucker: I mean, one of the things that I think was sort of intriguing was that he and Dan Bongino went out to Utah to be part of the investigation, but then did not speak at a news conference on Thursday night.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So he was standing near the podium, but did not speak.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And I think some people took note of that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I should say that it's not necessarily common for the FBI director to need to feel compelled to be on site of an investigation.
--:-- Eric Tucker: There's typically a big leadership team and there are shots that are being called from Washington.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I think it was important for Director Patel to put himself out there as sort of the public face of this investigation.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And I think that's in no small part to the fact that, you know, this is Charlie Kirk who was killed and he recognizes that the Trump administration, Trump administration allies are really hoping for a quick resolution, as is, frankly, the American public.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I guess his time in the spotlight in Utah was great preparation for his testimony on Capitol Hill this week.
--:-- Eric Tucker: Let's talk about how it went, starting with the Senate questioning.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think it was striking to see the hearing really split along strictly partisan lines.
--:-- Eric Tucker: So the Republican senators on the committee, who of course make up the majority were very supportive in all sorts of ways of Kash Patel's leadership, really elicited testimony favorable to him about, you know, the accomplishments that the FBI has made in the last seven months in terms of combating violent crime.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But he really faced a series of contentious exchanges with Democrats on the other side of the aisle on all sorts of questions.
--:-- Eric Tucker: Is it probably the most combative exchanges, I would say, with Senator Adam Schiff on Tuesday?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Any terminations at the FBI by employees? I'm asking you a very specific question.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And I'm going to answer the question, but you don't like the answer because it's the truth and it guts your narrative.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then with Eric Swalwell in the House on Wednesday. Who can tell the attorney general that Donald Trump's name is in the Epstein files? Yes or no?
--:-- Eric Tucker: Why don't you try spelling it out? Yes or no. Who's the alphabet? Yes or no? No. A, B, C, E, F. Those are people who actually have been sort of his antagonists for many years, dating back to Kash Patel's time as a staffer on the House Intelligence Committee, where he was investigating the investigation into potential collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia in 2016.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so there's a lot of lingering bad feelings and animosity.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And I think that you saw tempers really flare where, you know, I think Kash Patel could tell that the line of question was meant to embarrass him or really knock him backwards.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he responded in a way. There was a lot of name calling, some expletives.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And so we really saw these these these real tense moments.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How much nastier do things get with the House of Representatives on Wednesday?
--:-- Eric Tucker: One thing that was really brought into focus before the House that was not really a center of attention in the Senate was the Jeffrey Epstein case.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, of course, the FBI and Justice Department in July abruptly announced that they would not be releasing any additional investigative files from the Epstein case file.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And that was a decision that stunned people.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so one interesting moment was when Cash Patel was presented at Wednesday's hearing with his own words, with different interviews on podcasts where he had said. In 2024, you were asked by Glenn Beck about Epstein's black book.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And you said he asked, who has Jeffrey Epstein's black book? And you said black book FBI.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so Democrats seized on that opportunity to say, you aren't releasing this information. You are part of the government cover up.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And so they really tried to attack him on that front.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the suggestion was that because President Trump's name is known to be in the Epstein files, that perhaps there was an effort by the government to conceal, which Patella denied.
--:-- Eric Tucker: He indicated that he had released through the FBI all the information that he was legally empowered and entitled to release.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You've covered the FBI for a long time. The FBI is important in like a 24-7, 365 way, not like, say, FEMA, which I think we only tend to think about when there's a disaster in this country.
--:-- Eric Tucker: How would you evaluate this week for the Federal Bureau of Investigations? Was it was it kind of an exceptional one?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, I think from a perspective of getting somebody into custody, 33 hours is not a length of time that felt unusual or problematic or newsy to me, you know, especially given the way that this unfolded.
--:-- Eric Tucker: So I don't think that there's lingering scrutiny for why didn't you get him into custody sooner.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I think that the turmoil that existed prior to the shooting that was, you know, took center stage, obviously, at the two days of hearings and will continue.
--:-- Eric Tucker: I think that remains like really in the public spotlight. The questions about the personnel purge, I think all of that really is going to be something that's going to continue moving forward.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Eric Tucker reports on the FBI, the Department of Justice, and national security for the Associated Press, ap.org.
--:-- Eric Tucker: You'll remember that in addition to running the FBI, Cash Patel is an accomplished children's book author. The plot against the king is Russiagate for the young ones. Find it wherever you find your books.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: how Cassius King is feeling about his FBI director when we're back on Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for this show today comes from Bombas. They have all the comfy socks, slippers, tees, and underwear you'll need for the fall.
--:-- Eric Tucker: And they're made from premium materials that actually make sense for this time of year, like merino wool, strong Supima cotton, or durable rag wool.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: After a summer of wearing sandals for months, it does feel like sock weather again.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think interestingly like I have a Bombas style of sock that could pair with each of those types of footwear
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--:-- Eric Tucker: That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash explain, code explain to check out.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for today's show comes from open phone. Mine's locked right now.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mark Caputo, the Trump White House reporter for Axios.
--:-- Mark Caputo: So we've come to you today to ask you how happy the Republicans are. Maybe the Trump administration is, but we'll get to that later with the job Kash Patel is doing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Clearly Democrats on Capitol Hill, not very happy.
--:-- Mark Caputo: How about Republicans?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The most prominent voice online who was criticizing Kash Patel's performance was Chris Ruffo.
--:-- Mark Caputo: And Rufo had, like a lot of people, just really disliked the performative nature of Patel online.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We would be wise to take a moment and ask whether Kash Patel has what it takes to get this done.
--:-- Mark Caputo: I've been on the phone the last few days with many conservative leaders, all of whom wholeheartedly support the Trump administration, and none of whom are confident that the current structure of the FBI is up to this task.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there are a few other conservatives, or obviously conservatives, in the administration who shared the belief.
--:-- Mark Caputo: They just thought, and they think that Patel is a little too much on Twitter or on X or on social media, and sort of not more of your traditional hang back, don't say too much FBI director.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And in the administration, I'd quoted in our story in Axios, some people saying at the end of the press conference that Patel was at where they announced the arrest of Tyler Robinson, he then made this comment to Charlie Kirk, to my friend Charlie Kirk.
--:-- Mark Caputo: Rest now, brother. We have the watch and I'll see you in Valhalla.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that was in the words of one official in the administration, quote, cringe.
--:-- Mark Caputo: What do they want to see Cash Patel doing as director of the FBI?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Just catching more bad guys.
--:-- Mark Caputo: The big thing that is animating the right broadly is the idea that there are a number of leftist groups and organizations who are funneling money to violent, disruptive protests and illegal activity.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You have the crazies on the far left who are saying, oh, Stephen Miller and J.D. Vance, they're going to go after constitutionally protected speech.
--:-- Mark Caputo: No, no, no, we're going to go after the NGO network that foments, facilitates, and engages in violence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The last message that Charlie sent me was, I think it was just the day before we lost him, which is that we need to have an organized strategy to go after the left wing organizations that are promoting violence in this country.
--:-- Mark Caputo: And those need to be investigated, busted up, and the perpetrators of these alleged crimes brought to justice.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There are those who believe that the FBI has too many, quote, deep staters and more firings need to happen.
--:-- Mark Caputo: Albeit you see what just happened prior to this murder of Charlie Kirk. There was a lawsuit filed by three former FBI agents who alleged that their firing was not only illegal and unlawful, unfair, violated various laws and rules of employment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But also it portrayed Cash Patel as sort of bumbling in his job and not knowing what he's doing.
--:-- Mark Caputo: That's the sort of downside of the mass firings.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The upside of the mass firings is that is what the conservative MAGA base wants.
--:-- Mark Caputo: Pam Bondi, the attorney general, had sort of leapt to the fore with that. She got in office and dismissed a lot of people.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Cash Patel hasn't done as many firings. And in the MAGA mind, that has been a mistake.
--:-- Mark Caputo: A lot of people were worried that Trump was going to remake the FBI in his image. And that, of course, would be an image of not only a president, but a convicted felon.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Has Kash Patel yet accomplished that or is that still to come or is it unclear?
--:-- Mark Caputo: Oh no I think a lot of these agencies bureaus whatever you want to call them they they have career service employees who are harder to fire harder to dismiss
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They have their own culture history and institutions and perhaps none as storied and as solid as the FBI
--:-- Mark Caputo: We of the FBI feel that we're a part of a team to make America a great and decent place in which to live. We're on that team, all of us, together.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The ability to really change that is going to be difficult i'm not saying it's not happening but i know that people in patel's orbit have bemoaned how difficult it is to change things one of them told me is they said it's like an asylum over here so uh the deep state i'm putting that in air quotes, is still resisting the Trump attempt to take over.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What has Kash Patel accomplished since taking over the FBI?
--:-- Mark Caputo: I think one of the innovations or one of the new things that he has done is made himself much more of a political figure. He's on TV way more than any FBI director ever was.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: FBI Director Kash Patel joins us now. FBI Director Kash Patel. Kash, thanks for being with us.
--:-- Kash Patel: Joining us again, FBI Director Kash Patel.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it sounds like Kash Patel has lots of static with various people in this administration, with various people in the base.
--:-- Mark Caputo: Does he have allies?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Among the people who wanted Kash Patel to become FBI director was Charlie Kirk.
--:-- Mark Caputo: He advocated for him. Kirk had a very close relationship with Donald Trump, was very involved in the transition.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And really the closest person to Patel is Rick Grenell, who was an ambassador and then the director or acting director of national intelligence during Trump's first term, who is now a special envoy, including to Venezuela.
--:-- Mark Caputo: And he and Kash Patel have a very close and good relationship.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That was probably the closest thing to his upper level sponsor.
--:-- Mark Caputo: But Kash Patel also had a very good relationship with Donald Trump ahead of time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I understand from one source that Trump on Sunday. It was Saturday. Went golfing with Kash Patel and a Newsmax personality.
--:-- Mark Caputo: So there was sort of a bonding moment there on the links with the president.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And from what I'm told, all went well.
--:-- Mark Caputo: And of course, it's only that person at the top who matters in this administration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How's Trump feeling about Kash Patel in light of recent events in Utah, the hearings on Capitol Hill this week?
--:-- Mark Caputo: Donald Trump likes a winner. And in Trump's mind, they got the guy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Cash Patel has made a good argument as to him having a share or owning a share of the responsibility, or better said, being able to claim credit for catching the suspect by releasing his photo early, he says, when others had advised against it.
--:-- Mark Caputo: And one of the things that you'll look at and notice in conservative or right-wing press is a very clear and very smart campaign by Kash Patel and the various people, the FBI and in his orbit to make sure that he's getting credit for that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And who reads conservative media, conservative publications, and pays attention to conservative influencers?
--:-- Mark Caputo: Donald Trump.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What is Kash Patel doing that Donald Trump likes?
--:-- Mark Caputo: It certainly can't just be that he raised his voice a bunch of times at Adam Schiff and Cory Booker this week on Capitol Hill.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Donald Trump likes his people engaged and active in the fight.
--:-- Mark Caputo: And when you take this additional step of the hearing, Cory Booker has probably ensured that Kash Patel will be like FBI director for life under Donald Trump, so to speak.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, when Cory Booker comes out there and says, oh, you know, you're not going to be here much longer. You're going to get fired.
--:-- Mark Caputo: I think this might be your last oversight hearing, because as much as you supplicate yourself to the will of Donald Trump and not the Constitution of the United States of America, Donald Trump has shown us in his first term and in this term, he is not loyal to people like you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He will cut you loose.
--:-- Mark Caputo: I'm not sure if Senator Booker was playing opposite day games, but when a Donald Trump hear something like that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like, oh, Cory Booker thinks he should go. Well, I guess I'm going to keep him.
--:-- Mark Caputo: That's an important dynamic to remember.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then secondly, when Patel and Booker went at it and there was sort of a shouting match and going back and forth and he held his own, the Trump Twitter account, the rapid response 47 for the White House, they featured it prominently and said that an absolutely unhinged at sen booker disrupts the hearing after at fbi director cash calls out his lies cory is a mess so that's sort of the trump white house seal of approval
--:-- Mark Caputo: Donald Trump likes that stuff he wants people engaged in the fighting he wants them to mix it up he wants them to go after democrats counter punch and hit hard and cash patel does that
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Also, also, also Miranda Kennedy. Noel King and I are going to talk about Jimmy Kimmel tomorrow.
--:-- Mark Caputo: We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today Explained is distributed by WNYC.
--:-- Mark Caputo: The show is a part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Learn more about that network at podcasts.voxmedia.com.
--:-- Mark Caputo: And while you're on the internet, if you want to listen to our show ad-free, vox.com slash members.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.
