--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Luke Vanderplug, producer of the show.
--:-- Laura McGann: And I'm Laura McGann, running politics and policy coverage here at The Vox.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: We've been in this Mattress Firm in Brentwood, Washington, D.C. for four days. But today, my friend, is the day we figure out which mattress speaks most to you.
--:-- Laura McGann: Okay, so you definitely know who Stormy Daniels is.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Oh, I know who Stormy Daniels is.
--:-- Laura McGann: So Stormy Daniels is an adult film star. Her real name is Stephanie Clifford, but her chosen performance name and sort of personal chosen name is Stormy Daniels.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: She says that she had an affair with Donald Trump for a year.
--:-- Laura McGann: The legal battle between the president and a former adult film star escalated today. She has filed a lawsuit seeking permission to talk about an alleged affair with Mr. Trump.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: His legal team denies the affair and says she needs to follow a nondisclosure agreement.
--:-- Laura McGann: I know you either do or don't have a nondisclosure agreement, which if you didn't have a nondisclosure agreement, do you have a nondisclosure agreement?
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Do I?
--:-- Laura McGann: I didn't know you could like have an affair with someone and then have an NDA, but that's a thing you could do, I learned from this story.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Apparently. You can like cheat on your wife and then have an NDA. And then say this never happened because the law.
--:-- Laura McGann: Yeah. So this is what's going on right now with Donald Trump.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: His lawyer, actually, and his other lawyer have set up a sort of deal with Stormy where she's not allowed to talk about this affair that she had with Donald Trump.
--:-- Laura McGann: Yeah. They paid her one hundred and thirty thousand dollars to just not say anything.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: So she signed this document and now she wants to talk.
--:-- Laura McGann: Why does this back and forth matter?
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Who signed it and who didn't?
--:-- Laura McGann: The coverage of this story has been very focused on this as a sex scandal.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Yeah. And it definitely is.
--:-- Laura McGann: But it's a story about campaign finance.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: It's a story about corruption.
--:-- Laura McGann: And it's a story about how our politics are changing under Donald Trump.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Yes, the main character is an adult film actress, but it's bigger than that.
--:-- Laura McGann: Okay. I want to convince you. I'm going to.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: What is the love story of Donald and Stormy?
--:-- Laura McGann: How does it start?
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Okay, so let's go back in time. We are in 2006.
--:-- Laura McGann: We are going to go to a B-list celebrity golf tournament in Nevada.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: This is where Stormy and the Don see each other.
--:-- Laura McGann: And they have, well, she puts it as their first sexual encounter.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: I would go with Trist maybe, but she says it goes on for a year.
--:-- Laura McGann: Meanwhile, back at home in Trump Tower, Melania has just given birth to Barron.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: And so she's at home taking care of Barron and Donald Trump is, you know, out there at golf tournaments.
--:-- Laura McGann: He denies that any of this happened.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: But, you know, there's quite a bit of evidence to suggest that maybe Donald Trump isn't being totally honest.
--:-- Laura McGann: Like what?
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: What are the receipts here?
--:-- Laura McGann: What do we got?
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: She gave some interviews during the 2016 campaign to a couple of media outlets.
--:-- Laura McGann: So this is right after there's an Access Hollywood tape renowned now for Donald Trump saying, you know, that he likes to grab women by their privates.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: And she sees this and decides, you know what, I've been quiet about this affair for a decade.
--:-- Laura McGann: But I want to say something.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: So she goes to various media outlets but Stormy being the entrepreneur that she is she's not just going to give her story away for free.
--:-- Laura McGann: I mean that's crazy in her mind.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: So she wants to be paid.
--:-- Laura McGann: So outlets like Slate said no we don't pay for stories.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: She then ends up talking to Trump World about signing this nondisclosure agreement and getting paid $130,000.
--:-- Laura McGann: She surely doesn't meet with the president himself.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Here's how it goes down.
--:-- Laura McGann: She hires a lawyer.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Her lawyer works with Donald Trump's lawyer.
--:-- Laura McGann: His name is Michael Cohen.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: He crafts this nondisclosure agreement saying, you know, you can't, no releasing social media, no releasing photos, videos, whatever you got.
--:-- Laura McGann: You would be totally quiet.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: And in exchange, I will send you $130,000.
--:-- Laura McGann: Okay.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: They email back and forth.
--:-- Laura McGann: He's using his Trump account, his Trump organization account.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: He was also working for the campaign at the same time.
--:-- Laura McGann: He then sends over 130 grand wired from his own bank account.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: And this is all documented.
--:-- Laura McGann: There proof of it.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: He admits to all this.
--:-- Laura McGann: He said, yes, this is what I did.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: This is important to keep in mind.
--:-- Laura McGann: He made a mistake, he says.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: He crafted the NDA, Stormy Daniels signs it.
--:-- Laura McGann: Okay.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: But Donald Trump never signed the agreement.
--:-- Laura McGann: Instead, they just initialed it with the name of an LLC that is sort of a go-between between the Trump organization and sort of other entities.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: So she never signs it.
--:-- Laura McGann: It's just this sort of shady initialing.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: And is that an innocent mistake or a purpose?
--:-- Laura McGann: We don't know.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: We don't know.
--:-- Laura McGann: But definitely, I mean, functionally, it's dumb.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Like generally what you do, like if you and I were to make an agreement, if I sign it, you sign it.
--:-- Laura McGann: Sure.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Because the agreement is she won't say anything and Donald Trump won't say anything.
--:-- Laura McGann: Right.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: So that brings us now to the present.
--:-- Laura McGann: This winter, she started kind of trotting around to other media organizations again.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Trump world catches wind of this, that she's making moves.
--:-- Laura McGann: Another lawyer for the Trump organization reaches out to her lawyer and says, hey, you've got this NDA.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: We're going to arbitration and a judge is going to tell you you can't say anything.
--:-- Laura McGann: And I'm going to get a restraining order.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: She and her lawyer sue to get this restraining order lifted because Donald Trump never signed the agreement.
--:-- Laura McGann: So they're saying it's void.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Cohen and the second lawyer are both saying, no, no, it wasn't the company.
--:-- Laura McGann: It was just us just doing legal stuff for the hell of it.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Which is hard to believe.
--:-- Laura McGann: I mean, I just can't.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: You know, even if I'm trying to be as generous as possible, like that's just ridiculous.
--:-- Laura McGann: These aren't the kinds of lawyers that are doing a lot of pro bono work.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Why would you?
--:-- Laura McGann: Why would you say, you know, I will pro bono get a restraining order for this adult actress who says that you had an affair.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: So she shops a story around pre-election.
--:-- Laura McGann: Yes, she signs the NDA eventually.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Then this becomes a story late last year before she had signed an NDA.
--:-- Laura McGann: She was free to talk to people over the summer whenever she wanted.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: So in that window of Access Hollywood to when she signed the NDA just days before the election.
--:-- Laura McGann: She was free to talk to whoever.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Okay.
--:-- Laura McGann: So then she's asked about it after the election, after she's taken the 130 grand and cashed it.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: She says, yeah, that never happened because she's got this NDA.
--:-- Laura McGann: And she now has had a change of heart and is saying, look, I signed this thing.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: I took the hush money.
--:-- Laura McGann: But you know what? Donald Trump never signed it.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: I wish I hadn't.
--:-- Laura McGann: I will give the money back.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: The affair is real.
--:-- Laura McGann: While these legal proceedings are playing out, a totally separate legal proceeding is underway.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Pretty much disconnected from this, but is becoming important.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: So BuzzFeed News, about a year ago, they published what is now known as the P-tape dossier, if you recall.
--:-- Laura McGann: The Steele dossier.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Allegations that Russian operatives claim to have compromising personal and financial information about Mr. Trump.
--:-- Laura McGann: And part of it is, you know, that there is possible evidence that could be used against Trump in a blackmail capacity of him engaged in some type of sexual and urination thing.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: So BuzzFeed was the first to decide, you know, we're going to publish it.
--:-- Laura McGann: Even though we can't verify these claims, we think it's newsworthy because people are talking about it on Capitol Hill.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: OK.
--:-- Laura McGann: So they publish it.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Donald Trump's lawyer Michael Cohen says to BuzzFeed you'll see me in court.
--:-- Laura McGann: As he does so he sues BuzzFeed on behalf of Donald Trump for defamation.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Now BuzzFeed's lawyer in a total power move says okay well I want Stormy Daniels to keep all of her records.
--:-- Laura McGann: Because that case relates to a pattern of behavior we're seeing in this case.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: That's on like Taekwondo stuff.
--:-- Laura McGann: It's badass.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: I mean, they're just like, come at us.
--:-- Laura McGann: Yeah.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: We're going to get Stormy in here.
--:-- Laura McGann: And maybe she signed an NDA.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: But if in the context of a lawsuit, an NDA is meaningless.
--:-- Laura McGann: In the context of a lawsuit, an NDA is meaningless?
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: In this context, the lawyers who have seen the NDA and sort of commented on this in the press are saying if it was decided the defense wanted to depose her as part of the case.
--:-- Laura McGann: It would be very unlikely that this NDA would prevent that
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: So what might she say if she decides to speak to BuzzFeed or decides to speak to some other outlet that maybe pays her?
--:-- Laura McGann: What is she going to say?
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: We know that she's saying she had an affair for a year.
--:-- Laura McGann: We know that.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: But inside of the NDA, it has this clause about how she can't share any electronic messages that were exchanged on and really specific.
--:-- Laura McGann: So nothing from Instagram, for example, no images, no videos.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: And she has said she has stuff.
--:-- Laura McGann: Stuff?
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: We don't know what the stuff is.
--:-- Laura McGann: She's saying images of some kind.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Oh, dear.
--:-- Laura McGann: Yeah.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: But we don't know.
--:-- Laura McGann: That to me is a tip off of they think she might have some type of evidence and they don't want it out there.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Alright.
--:-- Laura McGann: So you've got your NDAs, your lawsuits, your stash of photos.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: It sounds like a classic sex scandal.
--:-- Laura McGann: But Laura McGann says this Stormy Daniels situation could be like the Mount Kilimanjaro of political sex scandals.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: That's after the break, this is Today Explained.
--:-- [Break music plays]
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Okay, Luke, you've tried the softs.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You've tried the firms.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: There's only one thing left. That's medium.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Let's do it.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: What's your approach here?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Are you going to jump on like you did the soft?
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Are you going to ease yourself down like you did the firm?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm going to do a nice little sit and spin.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Okay.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, yeah.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: How do you feel?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, this is... I think this is just right.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: I'm sinking in a little bit.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's cradling me, but at the same time, I've got some back support.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: It feels pretty good.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, before you make a decision, I just want to remind you that Mattress Firm offers a 120-night sleep trial to ensure perfection and a 120-night low-price guarantee, so you know you pay the perfect price.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: MattressFirm.com slash podcast.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Moment of truth. Drumroll.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: I say medium.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're a medium guy.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: I'm a medium guy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do you feel like you're just not committing to either extreme here?
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: No, I feel like sometimes something's just right.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You feel good?
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: I feel great.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thanks, Mattress Firm.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: I'm Sean Rameswaram from This Is Today Explained, and I'm speaking with Laura McGann.
--:-- Laura McGann: She runs politics coverage here at Vox.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When you talk about photos and potentially embarrassing the president, I wonder if for some it starts to feel like this is kind of blackmail and not an important political story or something.
--:-- Laura McGann: Does that come up in this conversation, in this huge scandal?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On the one hand, it's like, Stormy, is this revenge porn?
--:-- Laura McGann: Right. I mean, this is where I kind of like to pause with people and say, OK, yes, this might be a sex scandal that involves revenge porn and the president of the United States.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But don't think of it that way.
--:-- Laura McGann: OK. What you want to think about is people close to Donald Trump and presumably Donald Trump, though his lawyers have done a good job of shielding him, believe that someone has such embarrassing information about Donald Trump that they are willing to pay six figures to make sure that that secret doesn't get out.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We know that the Trump Organization has aggressively used NDAs for years.
--:-- Laura McGann: We know that Donald Trump never released his tax returns.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We know that Donald Trump has said he doesn't have relationships with certain people.
--:-- Laura McGann: And then it turns out he did.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We know so little about him because the basic stuff is hidden.
--:-- Laura McGann: Oh, and of course, I can't believe I didn't start with this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There are 19 women who say he either sexually assaulted them or committed some other type of misdeed towards them.
--:-- Laura McGann: And that's 19 women on the record.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So here is a person who is so secretive and has a bad track record with women and is sort of shady and has connections all over the world and we don't know what they are and a history of NDAs.
--:-- Laura McGann: When you take that all together, it opens us up to just the threat of corruption.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, we're seeing Donald Trump profit off the presidency again and again and again.
--:-- Laura McGann: He completely comfortable with other forms of corruption you know whether it owning a hotel across the street from the White House where the Republican National Committee holds events and literally pays him you know he a guy who very very comfortable with compromising the office of the presidency
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's got at least one person who's basically blackmailing him.
--:-- Laura McGann: We've got 19 other angry women.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Who else is there?
--:-- Laura McGann: And how much pressure is he under?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We just don't know.
--:-- Laura McGann: It's not really about whether or not he slept with this woman.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, that's not exactly news.
--:-- Laura McGann: I mean, this is Donald Trump.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He was having an affair with his second wife while he was still married to his first wife.
--:-- Laura McGann: Like, there's no, like, oh, I'm grabbing my pearls.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Donald Trump had an affair.
--:-- Laura McGann: Like, that's just not, that's not news.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is also, drumroll please, a campaign finance issue.
--:-- Laura McGann: Wait, really?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yes.
--:-- Laura McGann: Stay with me on this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So American campaign finance law is just, you know, an empty husk at this point.
--:-- Laura McGann: Yeah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Except for one, you know, one little thing, which is in the United States, a corporation cannot make a donation directly to a candidate's campaign.
--:-- Laura McGann: This is why we have PACs.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Right. I mean, you know, there are ways to get around it.
--:-- Laura McGann: You can give to a super PAC.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah. Companies can make these donations, but you cannot give straight to a candidate.
--:-- Laura McGann: And there's other ways for corporations to get around these various ways of having influence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What basically happened is when Michael Cohen wired $130,000 to Stormy Daniels as a lawyer for the Trump organization, he essentially was giving a gift to the campaign.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because he was saying, you are going to screw up this campaign.
--:-- Laura McGann: It stays away from the election.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm going to pay you as a corporation to protect Donald Trump.
--:-- Laura McGann: And that might be illegal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yes.
--:-- Laura McGann: There's also then the question of, well, what if Cohen did this as just a private individual?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this is sort of what he's saying is, you know, both of Trump's lawyers are saying, well, this is why they have this weird claim that they are not.
--:-- Laura McGann: They're just acting as just people, just people out there wiring money around and filing lawsuits and other things.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is really at the heart of it as well.
--:-- Laura McGann: Is Donald Trump allowing his lawyers to commit crimes on his behalf to protect him?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Or maybe even encouraging it.
--:-- Laura McGann: I can see this hurting Donald Trump's attorney, Michael Cohen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I can see this hurting Stormy Daniels.
--:-- Laura McGann: I don't know if anything hurts this president.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Will he be affected by any of this?
--:-- Laura McGann: I would say in this case, the thing that makes me think maybe it would hurt him, and this is really my underlying kind of thinking on why this is the little scandal that could, is that it's playing out in court.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A lot of times he just says, I'm not showing you my tax returns.
--:-- Laura McGann: And then he just denies anything.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But there's no way to prove it because all of the information is kept secret.
--:-- Laura McGann: In this case, these things are playing out in a public way.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You've got the arbitration.
--:-- Laura McGann: So that's Stormy versus Michael Cohen, essentially.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Stormy versus the Trump organization, essentially.
--:-- Laura McGann: Then there's the lawsuit in Los Angeles where she is basically suing to get out of the arbitration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: OK.
--:-- Laura McGann: There's also the BuzzFeed case where they are defending themselves against a defamation case.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So that's it.
--:-- Laura McGann: Lauren McGann, you convinced me that this story is worth talking about and covering on our podcast.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yes.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: All right, Luke, I think it's time we leave this fine store.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, I had a great time.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Me too.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We tried a lot of mattresses.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: We did.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're kind of an expert now.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: I feel like I am.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're also experts here at Mattress Firm.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: You can find out more at mattressfirm.com slash podcast.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Before we go, we should acknowledge this section of the store over here.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: Oh yeah, the pillows.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Accessories, brah.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: That too.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're covered.
--:-- Luke Vanderplug: I am.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Literally and figuratively.
