Live from SXSW: Noel King interviews Charlamagne tha God and Angela Rye

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Noel King: Audience even. It sounds pretty raw. It's only very lightly edited. Listen if you like. And we'll be back with regular episodes tomorrow. Oh, there we go. How's everyone? All right. Hello and welcome to a special live taping of Today Explained from South by Southwest. I'm your host, Noel King. I appreciate you all coming out today and I want you guys to know that we are going to be taking questions for the last 10 minutes of today's panel. So when that moment hits us, I've got a clock here. I'm just going to ask you guys to line up at the mics if you've got questions, okay?

Noel King: So today, Explained, for those of you who don't know, is Vox's daily news podcast and radio show. And this is an election year, and so we are covering a lot of election-related news. As we sit here, we're 239 days away from the vote, whether we like it or not. And my guests today are both political commentators, and I would also say observers. How about observer? How about observer? The gentleman shaking his head is Charlemagne the God. Like me, Charlemagne is a radio host, but he has a much bigger audience. He's the co-host of iHeartRadio's The Breakfast Club. Millions of people hear him every week. He's the author of two very good books, Black Privilege and Shook Ones. I've read both. They're excellent. And he's got a third book coming out in May called Get Honest or Die Lying. Charlemagne is a frequent guest host, including on The Daily Show. You may have seen his interview with Nikki Haley last fall before she dropped out of the race. Charlemagne is also the founder of the Black Effect Podcast Network.

Noel King: Also with us is Angela Rye. Angela is a woman who has done it all. She is a lawyer. She's a commentator. She's a political strategist. She's a social justice advocate, and she's host of the Very Good Native Land Pod. Now, these guys are friends, and together they founded the Reasoned Choice Network, which is a platform for diverse voices and perspectives this election year.

Noel King: All right, so I want to get started with you, Charlemagne, if we could. So you are a media mogul. It's an overused term, but you actually fit the bill. But you got your start far away from here in rural South Carolina. Tell me a little bit about your journey to the stage.

Charlemagne tha God: Oh, that's a broad question. That's why I wrote two books. But, yeah, I come from Moncks Corner, South Carolina. I started doing radio. I started off as a radio intern in 1998 at Z93 Jams in Charleston, South Carolina. Then I did radio in Columbia, South Carolina. I did radio in New York. I was Wendy Williams' co-host. And I did my own morning show in Philly. And all of that ultimately led me to the Breakfast Club, where I've been for the past 14 years.

Noel King: You do a morning radio show, yeah. The Breakfast Club, yeah. What time do you get up?

Charlemagne tha God: Uh, 6 a.m. No, no, no, I'm lying. I get up at 4 a.m.

Noel King: You get up at 4, yeah.

Charlemagne tha God: Yeah, I get up at 4 a.m.

Noel King: I used to work on a daily news radio show. Started at 5 a.m. I had to get up at 3:30. Does it put a wrench in your social life?

Charlemagne tha God: I had no life when I was doing that. No, I'm married with four kids, so I don't have much of a social life. My social life is split socializing with those young girls I got at the house. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm cool. I've been off, I'm 45, born in '78. Like, social life. The last century. What is that? Yeah. I don't have time for that.

Noel King: And so tell me a little bit about your journey here.

Angela Rye: Well, that is also a very loaded question. I was born to an activist and an educator, and I was always taught that I had an opinion, and whatever I wanted to do in this life, I could. I think I've tried my best to make my parents proud and the culture proud. The culture to me are Black folks, first and foremost, and the folks who are interested in our uplifting. And yeah, I think I went through phases where I hated politics completely. I think I might be back there, frankly.

Angela Rye: I worked on Capitol Hill when I found someone who looked like me and thought like me in Congresswoman Maxine Waters, where I interned. Ended up working on the Homeland Security Committee and then went to the Congressional Black Caucus, started a firm, fell on TV somehow. I still don't really know how that happened or why. It was never a goal of mine. And ended up adopting this lovely individual as a brother.

Noel King: Yeah. How did that happen? Where does this relationship start?

Charlemagne tha God: It all started with Tomi Lahren.

Angela Rye: Tell this story.

Charlemagne tha God: It did. It did. Oh, yeah. That's not my friend. They remember. It's okay. It's okay. There was a time. I forgot what year this was. Like 2015, 2016. 2016 election time. And that's when Tomi Lahren was making her rounds and she was supposed to come on Breakfast Club the same day that she did, I think she did The Daily Show the night before and she did The View that morning, but then they canceled her appearance. And so long story short, there was this discussion about her and Viacom for a moment and I was in the Viacom building at the time and they wanted us to have a conversation. We had a conversation.

Charlemagne tha God: And I was making a joke based off what Trevor Noah said when Trevor Noah had Tomi Lahren on the show and she said she doesn't see color. So he said, "What do you do when you're at a stoplight then?" And so I took a picture, me and her took a picture together and I put it in black and white and I put, "Do you see color?" Right? It was supposed to be a joke. And then later on on Twitter, I just asked a question. I said, "Who are the..." and I was trying to use a politically correct language at the time. So I said, "Who are the woke women of color that we could galvanize around and amplify and make them a voice the way that people have done with Tomi Lahren?" I got my ass handed to me. I mean, they went crazy on Twitter because of that. But because of that tweet, mad people were telling me, "Angela Rye, Angela Rye, Angela Rye."

Charlemagne tha God: And, you know, Angela just sent me a DM and she said, "I understood what you was trying to say."

Angela Rye: The story of our lives now.

Charlemagne tha God: Yes. She said, "I understood what you was trying to say, but you didn't convey it correctly." And then that's how our relationship started. And that's why I wouldn't change any of anything that happened the way it happened because I connected with Angela.

Angela Rye: No, I have to tell you, since it's Today Explained, it's interesting to me that I honestly feel like people try hard to misunderstand Lenard, like really hard, because there's something in us now that treats, and maybe we try really hard to misunderstand all of us who don't think the same as us, but there's something in us now where we're so hyper-skeptical that we don't believe in the innate goodness of a person. So I remember seeing the post. I can't remember everything about it, but I'm like, they are dragging him. And I couldn't understand why, because if this is someone who doesn't occupy this space and is asking in earnest, "Who are these people?" It feels like somebody could just say, "Son, come along and tell him what it is."

Angela Rye: We have developed the type of siblingship where I can ask him all the dumb questions. He can ask those of me too. And I actually encourage that type of dialogue. You have it in your family. Why can't you extend that into your family or your friend circle or to the folks you work with? That is how we evolve. If we can't have conversation, I don't know what it is. My co-host of Native Land Pod, Tiffany Cross, is over here. That was the one solo, woo, with Native Land Pod. And we do that all the time. It carries on to the podcast. It absolutely is in our conversations every day. I find myself trying to convince Tiffany. She lets me know regularly. I'm not going to convince her. We can agree to disagree, and there's no love lost.

Noel King: Yeah. I want to talk about one of those moments when you were taken out of context in a way that I found really surprising, because I just looked this up in preparation for this interview. So it's 2020. Charlemagne Tha God is interviewing candidate Joe Biden. And you're trying to get a couple more minutes with him. You're telling him, "Hang on, hang on," like, don't end the interview yet, which is something every interviewer does. The candidate tells you, you know, you've got two minutes left and you say, "No, give me 10." This is a very normal thing for an interviewer to do. And at this point, candidate Biden makes the statement, "If you don't know whether you're for me or for Trump, you ain't Black." I am very curious what went through your head as an interviewer when candidate Biden said that.

Charlemagne tha God: Exactly what I said to him in that moment. I actually said to him, "It's not about Trump. It's about me wanting to make sure that the Democratic Party is going to show up and do things for our people." And I didn't even disagree with his statement because I think what he was... I hate trying to say what white people are trying to say. But what he was trying to say was like, "If you're Black and you vote for Donald Trump, you're voting against your interests." Yeah, that's how I took it. I didn't take it as an insult in any way, shape, or form.

Noel King: Sure, no, I guess the question is in that moment, so this is before Biden is elected, in that moment, did you believe that to be true?

Charlemagne tha God: What, that if you vote for Trump, you vote against your interests?

Noel King: Yeah.

Charlemagne tha God: I believe that to be true now.

Noel King: You believe that to be true now?

Charlemagne tha God: Absolutely.

Noel King: Okay, okay. Sometimes people aren't sure. I mean, this is the thing. People will say Charlemagne is critical of President Biden. That means he is directing his audience toward Donald Trump.

Charlemagne tha God: Yeah, I think we really insult Black people, especially. We insult our own intelligence when we make those kind of statements. When we say things like you can't be critical of whoever the elected official is and still know what's in our best interest to do when we get into the voting booth come November. I think you really insult the intelligence of us when you do that.

Noel King: Angela, go ahead.

Angela Rye: I want to say one thing. I might get in trouble with you later for saying this, but I remember this interview because Lenard wrestled a lot with whether or not he was going to leave that in the interview.

Charlemagne tha God: Oh, we've all been there.

Angela Rye: We had a conversation about it. I thought you were wrestling about it.

Charlemagne tha God: No, I was wrestling with me about taking it out.

Angela Rye: Oh, that's true. OK, sorry. So he wanted to take it out. Because they knew that it didn't look right, that it was going to backfire. That is one of the things from talking to a Black interviewer that is still talked about to this day from Joe Biden. There are folks who talk about it on social. And it was a really foul moment.

Angela Rye: I think to me what it illuminates, even to this day, there are all types of special interests in this country that have the right to criticize their government. They are looked upon as deeply patriotic. But for the very people who came here by force, who established this country, who've never been properly honored, recognized, seen or heard in this country, we can't mobilize around our interests and push the government to do something just to be critical when it's not serving us correctly.

Angela Rye: But if you are a part of the gun lobby or if you are part of a charter school movement or if you are a part of AIPAC or if you are a part of big media, you can all represent your interests to elected officials and candidates and make demands. But when it comes time for us to do the same thing, now it's like, "Oh, no, you better not do that. You're going to push people to the other candidate." And it's like, no, I'm going to hold you accountable. You have to earn my vote every time you run, whether you're on the local level, the state level, or the federal level. That is our requirement. That is deeply patriotic to say I have expectations of what it will take to keep me happy here, for me to finally reach thriving, for me to finally reach liberty. This is what I require.

Noel King: I think there's also a sense maybe, and I'm just talking about what I've observed working in the media myself, that you're a different kind of radio show host. You're not a political interviewer, and therefore... But here's the thing. Here's where I disagree and why I'm so glad to be speaking to you today. You do great political interviews.

Charlemagne tha God: Thank you.

Noel King: Your political interviews, I've been doing this for 20 years. I've been in journalism for 20 years. Honestly, they're so... you just go right into what matters. And it makes me wonder because these kind of interviews are very stressful. You have to really prep for them because you don't want to be, as an interviewer, you don't want to get something wrong, you don't want to be embarrassed. What is your process for a Joe Biden, a Barack Obama, even a Pete Buttigieg? He's been on the show a few times.

Charlemagne tha God: That sounds good. Well, I approach it the same way I approach interviews with anybody. I'm a very curious person. My mother was an English teacher, she's still an English teacher in South Carolina, and she always told me when I was young to read things that don't pertain to me. And so being that she told me that, I would read everything from The Source magazine, XXL magazine, to Judy Bloom books, because I'm just a curious person. And so it's the same thing when I'm sitting around watching any of these elected officials. I'm just always wondering, why aren't they asking the most obvious question? That's how I always used to feel when I used to see people interviewing different celebrities. Like, why aren't they asking that question? So it's the same thing with politics.

Charlemagne tha God: So I take my natural curiosity and then I have a great council of friends like Angela Rye and friends on both sides of the aisle that I can reach out to and say, "Hey, what should I be talking to this person about? What would you be asking this person?" Sometimes, "Yo, what would you want to ask this person?" And so that's how I do my research for political interviews.

Noel King: The thing that makes you unique is you dispense with the politeness. I'm not saying you're rude, but you don't do a long build-up. You don't seem scared of anyone. I saw you challenge Vivek Ramaswamy to a push-up contest. Like, you just don't seem like you're...

Charlemagne tha God: That's because he was talking crazy. He was talking like he could just get down and do 100 push-ups like it was nothing. I had to see.

Noel King: Yeah, he got up. Hey, did he start doing burpees?

Angela Rye: I didn't ask you to do all that.

Noel King: But, I mean, this would not happen on NPR, right? We don't imagine Steve Inskeep doing burpees with Vivek, although maybe we should. But I wonder who you watch. Like, when you're in a system like I was at NPR, you see people. You're like, "Oh, he's been doing it for 30 years. She's been doing it for 30 years. I'm going to watch Michel Martin. I'm going to figure out what she does." Who do you watch?

Charlemagne tha God: Oh, historically growing up?

Noel King: Yeah, yeah. Who are your mentors in radio?

Charlemagne tha God: Oh, ooh. I like everybody. I mean, I'm not going to say I like everybody. But I'm influenced by the Wendy Williamses of the world, the Howard Sterns, the Angie Martinezes, the Petey Greens, Tom Joyner. I love Barbara Walters. I used to love Barbara Walters interviewing stuff. I mean, it's a little bit everybody. Larry King. Larry King gave me some great advice one time. Larry King said, "Joe, the most important question you can always ask in an interview is why." And that one question alone is really good with politicians because you can ask a politician a question. They're going to give you all their talking point answers, their prepared answer for whatever that question is. They're going to give you that first. So when you double down on the question again or just simply say "why," that's when you really usually get to the meat of the matter. You cause them, and I don't be trying to do this, but you cause them to slip up and say something stupid because they don't really have anything past the prepared answer because nobody ever asked them anything past the prepared answer. Sometimes it's just say a "why" and watch them fumble.

Noel King: Do you feel like that's where it gets honest?

Angela Rye: I don't. I feel like his "why" questions, but there's something disarming about Lenard. He also is a troll. He's a professional troll. I've been, there's literally footage of this. Like this is not debatable. You can shake your head, but there, we've been in an interview where he's like trolling me and I'm trying to be serious and I finally start laughing. I'm like, "I hate you so much. Like shut up." So there are definitely those moments. But when you're an elected official, you can't say, "I hate you so much. Shut up."

Charlemagne tha God: You can, though. I mean you should be able to.

Angela Rye: It probably not going to get you votes. You end up saying something like, "I don't know if you vote for Donald Trump, not me, you ain't Black." You end up saying something like that.

Charlemagne tha God: I just feel like the language of politics is dead. I feel like that's one thing that Trump did that people on the right seem to understand now, but people on the left don't. And it's always strange to me when you're having conversations with people on the left. And if you're just like behind the scenes or in private, they're like real people. But then they get in front of the camera and they turn into these robots. And I think that they would connect so much more with people if they just understood the language of politics was dead and they just was truly themselves.

Noel King: I don't even think you believe that about everybody on the left, because one of the people that you talk about interviewing the most and enjoying the fact that he never has rebuffed an interview is Secretary Pete.

Charlemagne tha God: Yeah, absolutely.

Noel King: So he doesn't do that. When you ask him why, he does answer you, he does engage you on your trolling questions. So I think that that's kind of an overgeneralization that you may not...

Charlemagne tha God: No. Well, why do you think Secretary Pete is honest? I mean, you could say, well, he's young, right? That's one thing that springs to mind. He's been in the politics game, but he's not for 60 years.

Noel King: Part of a very marginalized group.

Charlemagne tha God: Yeah, that's right. He's part of the gay community. What, or do you think that it's just a personality type?

Angela Rye: Yeah, to that point, that's what I think frustrates me the most sometimes, because when you are part of a marginalized community, you don't got time to BS people. Like, you shouldn't, especially when you see what this country is doing to so many marginalized groups. Like, you should be willing to speak truth to power all the time, and you should put people over politics. And I think that even at a time like this, man, I don't see anybody speaking to the sense of urgency that I feel is right around the corner. I still think that we have so many people playing politics when you have so many people's lives at stake. Like, if you're making statements like democracy is at stake and democracy as we know it could be gone, why wouldn't you be speaking truth to power? Why would you still be playing a political game at a time like this?

Noel King: Is there anyone currently doing that? Do you have someone in mind who's doing it right?

Charlemagne tha God: No. I don't. I personally don't.

Noel King: Do you, Angela?

Angela Rye: I do. I think that everyone has their moments. I talked about Congresswoman Waters earlier. I think she always does. She's doing a panel on DEI and what the MAGA Republican strategy is on that on Tuesday. I think Hakeem Jeffries does a good job. He was really clear on a Sunday morning interview today. And honestly, what I hate to do is say, like, these people are doing it right, these people are doing it wrong. I think it depends on the topic. Like, there are some places where we can be super effective and other places where we're not. It could be from discomfort. It could be if I tell you my truth here, I'm not going to secure votes.

Angela Rye: You know, like when I think about Hakeem Jeffries, he could very well be our first Black speaker in the United States House of Representatives. That means he's probably not at liberty to say as much. Why do we know this? We could look at the path of President Barack Obama, right? He couldn't say everything he felt. When he knew that gay marriage was the right way to go, when he was trying to get elected in 2008, he couldn't say that. He was not honest. And so I think it's hard because we have a certain level of expectation without realizing what the potential consequence could be if people really spoke truth to power all the time. I don't like that. It's very hard for me. I would never run for office for that reason.

Charlemagne tha God: Right. But I get it. Yeah. I think if we knew people were doing this, but then once they got into the positions of power that they're trying to get into, they actually did for the people like they said they was going to do for the people. We can understand. We can see you on stage finessing everybody and giving us a little wink and a nod and knowing that when you get in there, you're going to do what you're supposed to do. But the fact that that doesn't happen, it's just like, you're just blowing smoke up everybody's ass. And for what reason?

Noel King: Let's talk about that exactly. Or blowing smoke up people's ass? Polling. Same thing.

Charlemagne tha God: Oh, okay.

Noel King: You saw it. No, you're not just asking. So let's talk about polling, slash blowing smoke up people's asses. All right. So we have all been watching the polling last couple of months. And one thing that we've all seen is that President Biden does appear to be losing some segment of Black voters. This is a big deal in part because Black voters historically go for the Democrat. In 2020, Biden got like 91, 92 percent of the Black vote. Four years earlier, Hillary Clinton, somewhere between 89 and 91 percent. I was trying to find the exact figures this morning, but it's a lot. And now we have this New York Times Siena poll, this very influential poll that shows if the election happened today, 23% of Black voters say they would vote for Donald Trump. What do you think? Leave Trump out of it just for a moment. We'll get to him. But what do you think is happening here with President Biden and his support in the Black community? Has he done something wrong? Has he failed to do enough right?

Charlemagne tha God: This is always when I hear this people say this nowadays, I'm like, why are they just focusing on the Black voters? Because for a long time it was a gimme.

Noel King: That's why.

Charlemagne tha God: For a long time it was a gimme. I think, I mean listen, I would say if you ask me that question in all honesty, it's because I've been doing this for a long time and every year it was the same thing: "Well, the Democrats really can count on the Black vote." And so when you see 23, it's not an earthquake, it's not a huge number, but it's a lot more than 4%. I think that's overstated. I don't see 23% of Black people voting for Donald Trump. I could be wrong, but I don't think it might go up, but I don't see 23%.

Angela Rye: Yeah. I think, one, I agree with Lenard's point that we do, and Tiffany again on our podcast, I can hear her screaming quietly right now, but I think that it is one of those things where we end up talking about this and then Black voters are to blame in November if that's what ends up happening. So I don't think that that's fair. Again, we've carried this country long enough.

Angela Rye: But I would say that it's not about what Joe Biden himself has done or not done for Black people. I think this is about an institution, an establishment that has regularly failed folks who look like me, folks who feel voiceless and unseen. I think that when you look at the Supreme Court and you're like, "We got our first Black woman Supreme Court justice, like change is coming now." And you realize she is in the minority of the minority and Clarence is definitely not on her side. When you look at the Senate, the margins of the majority for the Senate, that nothing can really get done because there's still a filibuster. When you look at the fact that when we go to the polls in November, there's still some old white guys that are going to be able to pull rank vis-a-vis the electoral college and say, "Actually, this is what we're saying is going to happen." Think about Hillary and Trump then, right?

Angela Rye: So there are all of these dynamics about a democracy that feels like it has never served us. And so people are like, "Well, what is going to be different? I don't hear you telling me what's going to be different. I know that I brought your campaign back from the dead, and you still haven't rewarded me for my labor." So more than it being this defect or this deciding to go to Donald Trump, it is I am just apathetic. I'm apathetic because when I try to go vote, there's a suppressive law on the books that tells me I need an ID when you don't need that for a gun. I'm apathetic because I know that if I went to go volunteer at a polling precinct and handed out water in Georgia, I would be reprimanded for that. I'm apathetic because there are people like me in my family who are incarcerated and also in Georgia. If I try to get their bail paid through a nonprofit, that entity is now going to face repercussions.

Angela Rye: I'm apathetic because as an attorney, there's a Black woman named Marilyn Mosby who took on the killers of Freddie Gray, who took on police officers overall, and this Department of Justice didn't say, "Under Donald Trump, this was a prosecution that works. But under this administration, it must change." We're going to go ahead and prosecute her to the fullest extent of the law. This Black woman for nothing is facing more than 30 years in prison. That does not serve me. If you can't serve me, who will? What do I do? So I understand, even if we can call it apathy, it's real frustration. It's betrayal, right? What do we do to change that? And it's not just a narrative. It's not just a messaging problem. It is the fact that racism is a bipartisan and even, I'd argue, a nonpartisan issue in this country. And it's time for us to face that.

Noel King: Well said. You get questions about this, I think, in part, again, as a radio person myself, because you take calls on your show, which means you have this intimate connection with people that... It's the best. It's so cool. I wish Today Explained we did call-in. But it means that people sort of ask you to be a representative of the people that you're hearing from who call in. And I'm asking you now to do the same thing. I want to know what you are hearing from people that is undeniable this year about this election. What stands out to you? What do you hear repeatedly? Or what's something you've heard once and you're like, "Oh, damn, that's a game changer."

Charlemagne tha God: Oh, the biggest thing is, my guy Tim Ryan, he talks about the exhausted majority. And he says he feels like most people in this country, they're not leaning to the left, they're not leaning to the right. They're just tired. And I think what Angela just said about apathy is very true because I've been telling people for the last eight, nine months, 2024 is going to be all about the Republicans who are the crooks, the Democrats who are the cowards because they don't fight enough, and the couch, which is voter apathy.

Charlemagne tha God: And I think just a lot of people, just because you see people when they say 23 percent of people may vote for Trump, which I don't believe, just because you see people who may be off Biden from the Democratic Party that are Black, that don't mean that they're going to be Republicans in any way, shape or form. Some people are just tired. So I think it's up to both candidates right now, but especially Democrats. How are you going to energize those people who don't want to get up off the couch in November?

Charlemagne tha God: So that's the biggest thing I'm hearing from people. They're just tired. Like, they're just fed up with the political process all across the board.

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Noel King: I called the Biden campaign on Friday to ask them, what has Joe Biden done for Black people? And the reason I did this is Joe Biden had a platform, a program in 2020. Remember Lift Every Voice? He was going to close the Black-white wealth gap. He was going to expand access to education, expand voting, end incarceration for drug use alone. There was a lot. And what I wanted to know was what of that was accomplished. What do you think? I also asked if they were going to bring Biden on your show, and I got a frantic phone call back, like, please don't make any promise. I'm like, no, I'm just curious. What do you think Joe Biden got done? Do you ever hear people pointing specifically to these things that were promised, because they were promised, as examples of something that Biden and the Democrats did right over the past four years? You looking at me? Okay.

Angela Rye: I want to start with in 2020, I think putting Kamala on the ticket as his partner was the right thing to do. It was a demand that we had. We wrote an op-ed that he have a Black woman VP. We demanded that he appoint a Black woman Supreme Court justice. Thanks to folks like Congressman Clyburn in South Carolina and South Carolinians, that also helped to make that real. The number of Black women who have been appointed as judges in this administration is historic and it's something that I am very happy about as an attorney myself. And then I would say, other than that, they take a lot of credit for Black business growth, which is great.

Noel King: Yeah.

Angela Rye: But I think that we have to start making some distinctions. Like the things that you can take credit for have to be like, because of this policy, this happened. So if they weren't knocking on your door — I say this often with LegalZoom — that probably means they can't take credit for that exactly. People are trying to find other ways to make a living because inflation, because the stock market, all of these other things. I love what he said in the State of the Union around solving for housing with the housing credit because housing prices are so high. I love the fact that he addressed George Floyd justice and policing because that's something he wouldn't touch during the 2020 campaign. So there are some things where I still feel like there's a lot of room for growth. And certainly a lot of things that are needed to mobilize our people. He talked about the role that John Lewis played in securing voting rights for this country. They've been rolled back by the Supreme Court in multiple ways, vis-a-vis Section 4, Section 2, and Section 5. We have to restore the Voting Rights Act as we know it, and that is through the John R. Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act. So there are things that he needs Congress to do to be able to take credit for those things, but I also think that he could use the power of the pen in the executive order a little bit more.

Noel King: The George Floyd Policing Act, wasn't it something he was pushing for in 2020?

Angela Rye: Not in 2020. Kamala was the senator with Cory Booker who led that process on the Senate side, Karen Bass on the House side. He would not sign on to George Floyd Justice in Policing at the time because he was also trying to maneuver with police unions.

Noel King: What do you think Biden has gotten done? What do you hear Biden has gotten done?

Charlemagne tha God: Student loan forgiveness is a big one. That is a big one. Student loan forgiveness is a big one. I mean, honestly, that's the biggest thing I've heard people from our community talking about because people like to see tangible things. They like to see things that absolutely they can touch and they can feel. Like, you know, when people wonder why folks keep bringing up these stimulus checks, it's because it's something that they could actually touch and they could feel and they could see. And I think it's the same thing with the student loan debt forgiveness. But outside of that, I personally haven't heard much.

Noel King: Do you think — so Donald Trump still, from what I hear, Donald Trump still gets credit for the stimulus checks.

Charlemagne tha God: Yeah, he put his name on it. He continued on, but that was — I don't, I guess I don't hear as much of Biden getting credit for student loan relief. Maybe I'm too old. Maybe we've just, I've just aged out of that.

Noel King: But a thing I'm very curious about is whether —

Charlemagne tha God: Or the stimulus checks. He doesn't get credit for his stimulus checks. I think they're actually doing a very good job of owning the student loan forgiveness thing. Because from what I've been told, you know, people actually receive emails. And in the emails, it says President Biden forgave your student loan debt. And I was watching them. They learned from them stimulus checks. They did. They did. And I was watching MSNBC the other day. And I forgot where he was at. It was actually yesterday. He was being introduced by a woman who had gotten her student loan forgiveness, you know, wiped away. And you have to put a face to things in this era, in 2024. If you just get on television and announce something, people will be like, okay. But when you put a face to it and people can see somebody that's actually been impacted by what you did, I think that goes a long way. You know another big one, and it was big for me, when Brittney Griner was held in Russia, I think so many of us were mortified. She was certainly there for too long, but this administration delivered on ensuring that Brittney Griner was returned.

Angela Rye: That pissed a lot of people off, though. Because the young lady, she was in Russia for cannabis, but you got so many people here in America still getting locked up for cannabis and people still in prison for cannabis, so it seems very hypocritical for you to fight so hard to get somebody out of prison all the way in another country, but you're not doing things here in America?

Charlemagne tha God: Well, he made the announcement now that they are going to be releasing folks from federal prison for weed-related charges. He talked about that in the State of the Union, too, but he made an earlier announcement, and then you have some ideas.

Angela Rye: Yeah because they were pardoning people who are in federal prison for simple possession of marijuana. There's nobody in federal prison for simple possession of marijuana. So it's like, what was that?

Charlemagne tha God: Yeah, but he expanded it in the State of the Union. Maybe he heard you complaining.

Angela Rye: I mean, he should. I think it's good.

Charlemagne tha God: To Angela's point, that's something you can do with a stroke of a pen. Like, if he wanted to right now, he could pardon everybody that's in prison on a federal level for a nonviolent marijuana offense. If he wanted to.

Angela Rye: I think it should be nonviolent drug-related offense. I'm not mad at that either.

Noel King: When you say tangible things, I hear the economy. That's it. That's literally all it's ever about. Like, when they ask people, well, what do Black people want?

Charlemagne tha God: You want the same thing everybody else wants in this country. Upward mobility. Money. People like cash. Cash rules everything around me. That's been the money.

Angela Rye: That's right.

Charlemagne tha God: It's been like that since the beginning of time.

Angela Rye: This is where we disagree, too, though.

Charlemagne tha God: But it's true. There's nothing we can talk about on this stage that money doesn't revolve around. If you have all the money in the world, let's say that you're Robert Smith. And I'm not saying he has all the money, but it's a friend of ours who's a billionaire. You got enough of it. Okay. Yes. Maybe he might disagree. But nonetheless, Robert is walking down the street with the hoodie on. Robert is still subject to whatever police violence occurs to any other young Black boy or a Black man in this country. So it's not just money that we need. We need safety. We need the same folks who are there to protect and serve other communities to protect and serve us, not shoot to kill. You know, we need other safety nets.

Angela Rye: You would say housing is still money. You would say student debt relief is still money. But even access to education, that's not all money. Some of that is the dialing back of affirmative action. What are they going to do to put equity back on the table? There are DE&I offices throughout the federal government. What are they doing? What are their accomplishments? Right. I want a Department of Justice that serves us. I want some folks that are really aggressive on the voting rights cases. Like this is a big deal that he's not — he's not going to be able to get to the finish line in November if they don't really start taking these voting rights issues really seriously.

Charlemagne tha God: Yeah, that's the other thing. At least I don't hear enough people factoring in. The voter suppression is going to be so real come November, and Democrats' only defense against voter suppression historically has been, we've got to have the largest voter turnout in the history of America this election. I don't know if you get that in 2024. So if you don't get a large voter turnout, how are you going to stop the voter suppression?

Noel King: I think one of the, truthfully, I think one of the criticisms is even saying something like that could lead to people sitting home and staying on the couch. You're not advocating anyone to sit home and stay on the couch. But I think one of the criticisms to you is you have so much influence. And like you say, Angela's nodding her head, so I didn't make this up. You have so much influence. You say it, and there's like a genuine fear that that might make it real.

Charlemagne tha God: I disagree.

Noel King: What do you say your disagreement on?

Charlemagne tha God: Because I think that if these elected officials were doing what they were supposed to be doing for the people, it wouldn't matter what somebody like me says. If literally me just having these conversations, because the only question I've ever asked, you know, that is considered critical is, are they still a winnable ticket come November? I think that's a very valid question to ask if we have a threat to democracy on the other side. Like, what's wrong with asking that question, are they still a winnable ticket? When you look at the polls, when you look at the approval rating, what's wrong with asking that question? When David Axelrod said that, nobody says anything. When, what's the guy who wrote the article for the New York Times? Ezra Klein. When Ezra Klein writes an article like that, nobody says anything. But when the Black guy from the hip-hop station in the hoodie says something, then everybody has a problem with it. Because the assumption is that you are influencing your listeners. They know who Ezra Klein's listeners and readers are, but you're something mysterious.

Noel King: I really do think some of mainstream media has figured you as this person that they can't quite figure out. How do we talk to those young people and those young people of color? They're like, well, he's doing it, right? And I think that gives you a lot of power, whether you want that influence or believe you have that influence or not. I think the president and his people believing you have that influence in some way gives you that influence.

Charlemagne tha God: Any power that I have is derived from the people. Like I'm literally only asking the questions that I hear, you know, everyday working class people ask of me when they call into the radio station in the morning or when I'm walking the streets of New York or when I'm home in South Carolina. These are the things that I'm hearing people say.

Noel King: And what are you hearing most? I mean, we talked about it a little bit, but put your finger on a couple of things that, again, are undeniable this year. I'll give you an example. I remember back in January, it was January 15th, and I was having a conversation with Fox News, Fox Digital, actually, and the guy, Joseph, the guy said to me, hey, do you think the border is going to be an issue come November? And I said, hell yeah. And the reason I said, hell yeah, is because for the first time, I'm having people that I talk to on a regular basis come to me and they're having these conversations. You know, you have people in Chicago, you have people in New York complaining about the resources that they feel the migrants were getting that, you know, people in the community that have been there forever aren't receiving. I had, you know, people come to me and complain to me about the safety of the neighborhoods that they were living in because of, you know, different gang factions that were coming from across the border. And so I answered that question just the way I answered it right now. And you literally had MSNBC run a headline that says Charlemagne Tha God is pushing MAGA messaging. Now, two months later, that's all everybody's talking about is the border. So literally, my answer came from talking to people, regular, everyday people, like not listening to no politics. You know, what a campaign strategist said, this came from the people. So how is it MAGA messaging if it's coming from the people?

Noel King: Do me a favor while we're here. Predict something else. What is something that we're ignoring? What is something that we're ignoring that you think we shouldn't be ignoring?

Charlemagne tha God: I don't even think it's about ignoring. It's just about what's next. I think this spring and summer is going to be ridiculous. And you're going to see so many — like you think you're seeing migrant crime headlines now. Wait until spring and summer. Because America doesn't even have the resources to take care of the people that they're letting into this country. Right? So being that they don't have the resources to take care of the people that they're letting into this country. What do you think those people are going to resort to? They're going to resort to the same thing that most poor people in this country resort to, which is crime. And where are they going to be committing that crime at? In the hood. So what are you going to have? You're going to have Black and brown Americans fighting with people from other countries over limited resources or no resources that this country doesn't provide either one. So that's going to be something. You'll see it.

Angela Rye: Here's the only thing. I hear you on this. I don't think it's a resource challenge. I think that the powers that be decide what is worthy of spending resources on. There's money for Ukraine. There's money for the Israel-Hamas war. There's not money for the least of these in this country.

Charlemagne tha God: I think you're right about that, but I also think if we're talking about people —

Angela Rye: No, she's absolutely right about that. You are absolutely right about that.

Charlemagne tha God: That's another thing people are pissed off about. You know, like Tupac said, you got money for war but can't feed the poor. Like, that's another thing. And it's not like nobody's sitting around saying, oh, I'm pro this or I'm pro that. You're just simply watching like, damn, how they got all this money to send over there and all this money to send over there and all this money to take care of migrants. But meanwhile, you got homeless people on the streets all throughout America. I can't even keep food on my table or a roof over my head. I don't know why this is rocket science.

Noel King: But you can hear — you can hear if people think Donald Trump is stronger on the border, if people remember getting stimulus checks for Donald Trump, if people think Donald Trump and the Republicans take crime more seriously than Democrats, that 23%, that doesn't seem unrealistic to me. Some of the things you're saying —

Charlemagne tha God: We gotta stop saying that in regards to Black voters, though. Like, when you look at Joe Biden's approval ratings, he's getting his ass kicked everywhere.

Noel King: Well, I'm saying when you look at Joe Biden's approval ratings, when you look at the polls, he's like plenty of people down on President Biden. It's not just Black people. It's fair.

Charlemagne tha God: So I think that, you know, in order to really get that campaign on the right track, they got to start looking at the totality of what's happening with that campaign and how different groups of people feel about him. Angela disagrees with me on that, though.

Angela Rye: Well, I disagree with you on a lot sometimes. But I think the main thing that I worry about is we're not learning from history when we separate ourselves from migrant folks. They're not getting overwhelmingly taken care of. They're not getting put up in mansions. These are folks who are also still struggling here. I think the thing that we should work more diligently on communicating is the fact that when Governor Abbott buses migrants from here to New York or to New Hampshire or to Maine or to Vermont, that local government where they're bused and dropped off is the liability issue to take care of the people who are there. Without the migrant crisis, we have a homelessness crisis. Where I spend time in L.A., there's a homelessness crisis. There's a resource issue. And I think more than anything else, what we have to get familiar with is what happens when the haves pit the have-nots against each other. When we see, like, oh, this person is getting something, even if it's just a little crumb, more than what I have, we're still not looking at that huge tax break that Donald Trump gave to the rich that put this country or gave this country the largest national debt that we've had in history. Right. We're not — we're distracted from that because we're so busy fighting over them damn crumbs.

Charlemagne tha God: But people can eat crumbs, too. And I think that, you know, come on. I'm not encouraging nobody in this room. I'm from — listen, I'm from South Carolina. 50% of all people in South Carolina right now, their basic necessities aren't being met. Of course, but that's not — so I know people aren't living in mansions, but, yo, you just want basic necessities. Can I get some food on my table? Yes. A roof over my head? Yes. Like, those are just — we want the basics.

Angela Rye: I'm not saying don't get the basics.

Charlemagne tha God: But people will vote for who they believe is going to get them the basics, right? Like, what it's going to come down to is who, which of these two candidates do I believe is going to get me that?

Angela Rye: Yeah, I never said that. I agree with that.

Charlemagne tha God: Right now, I feel like neither one.

Angela Rye: I don't see it. I don't think that's true. I haven't seen it from either party.

Charlemagne tha God: Now, that part is not fair.

Angela Rye: So even under this administration, SNAP benefits have increased. For people who are struggling to raise their children, there's a child tax credit. There are other things being put in place. Kamala just talked about with the National Governors Association, 44 governors have signed on to her post-mortem. Maternal health care. Like after you've carried the child, you're going through the postpartum is what I'm trying to say, not postpartum. Thank you. Somebody whispered that right here. That is the kind of thing that creates resource and relief. We are going after the — as long as we're pit against each other, we're going after the wrong folks. The IRS recently through the Inflation Reduction Act, they now have all of this money to go after billion or millionaires and some billionaires who haven't even filed a tax return since 2017. And we're going to fight the person over, you got more SNAP benefits than this migrant got on a debit card through Eric Adams' program? That's insane. We got to learn from like what Dr. King taught us. That ain't it. Operation Bread Basket wasn't about snatching a crumb from somebody else. It was about baking bread, creating opportunity, going to the haves to ensure the have-nots needs are taken care of.

Charlemagne tha God: I agree with Angela to a certain extent, but I also understand people that are currently in those positions right now. We speak from a place of privilege in a lot of ways, right? But if you're literally sitting around right now and you cannot keep food on your table and you can't keep a roof over your head, hell yeah, you're going to be pissed off if you see somebody else getting those crumbs.

Angela Rye: But why are we mad at the person with the tax breaks? They're paying less in taxes than middle class and low to middle class folks are paying.

Charlemagne tha God: I think they are upset about that as well.

Angela Rye: But I just feel like some of us have the responsibility to ensure that we switch the narrative by using facts. Like, here's where the actual resources went. Like, that is the thing that I think we have a really urgent responsibility to do. I'm calling myself on it, too, because I've doubled down on this, too. Like, I can see why this causes tension. But what do you do after you expose the tension? Like, you have to redirect to where people actually should be holding folks accountable. Like, this is a real issue. We are making the rich richer. Now we are pitting the poor against each other.

Charlemagne tha God: But I, yes, and we've always done that. I mean, that is the American way in a lot of ways.

Noel King: I want to speak to the person in the audience who said neither of these candidates. And I want to talk about the concept of double haters, people who are like, I don't want either of these candidates.

Charlemagne tha God: Oh, I saw that term yesterday. Oh, my God.

Noel King: What do you think?

Charlemagne tha God: That's what they're running with now, double haters?

Noel King: This is what my editor is running with. I saw that on some network yesterday. I was like, that was terrible. Go ahead. Say more. Say more.

Charlemagne tha God: I just don't like the term double haters. Because here's the thing. Nobody is hating. Hating is when you're jealous and you're envious of what a person has. These are concerned American citizens who feel like their needs have not been met by either party in this country for years. That is not hating.

Noel King: I don't think that's hating but you also don't think — don't let me put words in your mouth — but presumably you also don't think the solution is not voting.

Charlemagne tha God: No, I don't think the solution is voting but you can't tell people —

Noel King: I don't think the solution is not voting but you can't tell people how to vote either.

Charlemagne tha God: Yes you can, you can.

Noel King: But I can understand when people aren't moved when you tell them to vote this way.

Charlemagne tha God: I'm over that. I want to tell people what I believe the issues are, like the trouble that is coming in November, and let people make their own decisions. Like people are voting uncommitted in the primaries. And you see people, somebody's clapping for that. And now you see people, and some people are voting for third party candidates. Like I'm not mad at any of that. You're just telling people to exercise their right to vote. I'm not telling folks who to vote for.

Noel King: But you are very skeptical, it sounds like, of the idea that Donald Trump is getting more Black support than we might have expected.

Charlemagne tha God: I don't know how true that is. I think that number, that 23% is very, very, very overstated. Like I said, I feel like I see more people in the exhausted majority than I see Black people running to say they're going to vote for Trump.

Angela Rye: I think this is the part where I get frustrated, too, Noel, just respectfully. I feel like we have hit this point about this 23% four or five times. And I think he's been clear that it's like, no, there's a larger swath of people who don't feel inspired. "Exhausted majority" is language that you've used. And I've actually heard a gazillion times since you said that to me by either candidate. And so how do we get people inspired to preserve democracy, which is the other thing you've been very clear about on multiple interviews. Like I'm voting to preserve democracy. That don't give you that many choices. It's two people on the ballot in the fall. And we're very clear that one is running to be a dictator. And when he loses this election, hopefully he's running to start a civil war. Let's be clear. Do you hear those fears? I mean, I hear those fears. Do you hear those fears from your audience? Does your audience have fears about Donald Trump being reelected?

Charlemagne tha God: I mean, we've talked about the critiques of Biden. What do you hear about Trump? I think I've heard the fear of definitely, you know, democracy as we know it being wiped away. But honestly, that doesn't scare a lot of people either because, man, when you're already living in hell, you don't think it can get worse. When you're already living in hell, you don't think it can get hotter. It can. Maybe. It definitely can.

Noel King: I want to take some questions from the audience, if anybody's got them. We've got mics, I believe, on either side. I'm sorry, you guys, the lights are a little bit in my eye.

Audience Member 1: She said, I'm running to the mic. She said, come on down. I love it. Fabulous, fabulous. The one thing that troubles me, and you hit on it a lot, Angela, is that, yes, these politicians say they're going to do these things, but they have to work with the Congress. They have to work with a coalition of the willing, and we don't have that many willing to do what politics is. We have to compromise. Everybody gets a little. And right now, it's my way or the highway. So you can't hold people accountable because they can't change the coalition of the willing if they're not willing. This is more of the exhaustion.

Angela Rye: But I do think this is where there's real concern. Because if the sense is it doesn't matter who you vote for because nothing will get done because everything will always have to go through Congress. I mean, she said it. There's literally nothing else we can say. I will tell you, remember when Mitch McConnell came to the podium, not recently when he said he's not running anymore? Yes. But he said, you know, he wanted to make Barack Obama a one-term president. I feel like in that moment something shifted in the consciousness of Congress where they decided that their role was to be obstructionist, right? They were very hell-bent on that, starting with Obamacare, the Affordable Health Care Act. They decided that their role was to prevent, and they are active in doing that. And so if you don't — if you're not a Democratic president that wins a Democratic House and Senate, your priorities and the things that you can't do vis-a-vis executive order and action, you're screwed. And the same thing applies for a Republican. Because now if Donald Trump comes in office, there's a Democratic House and a Democratic Senate. They're going to try to prevent everything because we can't afford another Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, or Amy Coney Barrett on the Supreme Court. We'll really be extra screwed. Those are lifetime appointments until the law changes, right? That is the issue. We are pit against each other and the divide is so deep that there is no negotiating. You're negotiating with terrorists. And I don't think the terrorists in this instance are Democrats.

Noel King: Next question. Do you want to go? Okay.

Audience Member 2: Yeah. I was really curious because I think sort of at the crux of some of your conversation, especially earlier on, was related to like integrity and being a person in media, being a figurehead and representing an audience. And I'm just thinking about Vox. You know, it's a media house that is a coastal located media house. It's in, you know, a lot of big media companies are located in major cities. But you're representing, you know, people across the country. And I'm just thinking about that big middle. I'm from Nashville. So I'm thinking about this big middle. And I work for local media and news. And I'm thinking about, like, what space do you think local news or local media has in this broader conversation about elections, about politics? And, you know, you came up from South Carolina. So I'm just really curious about what do you think the relationship is now between, you know, a place like Vox or iHeartMedia or something like that and, like, a small news organization?

Audience Member 2: I don't think there's anything small about news, especially if you're in a place like Nashville. Sleuthy Nashville—I call it white Atlanta. But focus on being hyper-local in that area and talk to those people from Nashville. See what they're looking for come November. You'd be surprised how those so-called small stories can reflect on a national level. You'll start to see that what people in Nashville want is kind of like what people in Austin want, or what people in Columbia, South Carolina want. So you'll get a real good gauge of what people are looking to vote for come November.

Noel King: Next question.

Audience Member 1: Some of the challenges society is experiencing go beyond politics. There are global technological and demographic shifts happening that are really at the foundation of these challenges. That being said, politics plays a huge role in balancing it out. My question is: do you think we live in a democracy? In the sense that so much big money influences politics, so much of politics grinds to a halt because of it. And what can we do about it as a millennial struggling to buy a home or raise a family? It's only going to continue to become tougher as home prices, education, and healthcare costs go up.

Charlemagne tha God: I want to add to your question. This is a very good question. Do we live in a democracy? Because what we're hearing about this election is: you're going to vote, and if you vote for candidate Trump, you are putting an end to American democracy. That is what we keep hearing. But what happens if people are actively questioning whether this is a democracy? Does the threat actually mean anything? I think I said that earlier. That's why you aren't scaring some folks with the whole "this is going to be the end of democracy as we know it come November." A lot of people already feel like we're not living in a democracy. And if it is a democracy, it's a very compromised one. These politicians are very compromised. As long as they're beholden to big corporate entities and billionaires, how will they ever be truly of the people? And if you're not of the people, you're not a democracy.

Angela Rye: I agree with so much of that. But I want to speak to something you said earlier. Lenard said we're sitting here in a place of privilege. And I would throw that back to you all in this moment. South by Southwest, where you can have conversations that stretch you—iron sharpening iron. In a place where a Donald Trump presidency becomes real, those opportunities, those spaces are gone. Women who need abortion to save their lives or because of rape and incest—that's gone. He appointed judges on the Supreme Court that would overrule Roe for a reason. When we talk about workers getting paid livable wages—that's off the table. This is someone who's never even paid contractors. When we talk about a Muslim ban—I don't know if any of you were around when 9/11 happened, but remember what it was like when Arab Americans and Muslim people were persecuted and profiled. Now we're talking about someone who said he's a law and order president. This is a man that called for the death penalty of the Central Park Five—five young black men who were innocent. Law and order and protecting and serving won't be for those of us in this room who are of color. Guns and the ability to attain guns will run rampant. It will be like war all the time. So if you don't know what it looks like to live in a compromised democracy, and you want to know what it's like to live in North Korea or Russia, that's what I'd invite you to look into. Because that's what's on the line.

I think we don't do a good enough job. We just throw that talking point out there—"democracy's on the line." What does that exactly mean? You won't have a vote. He will not leave office. Congress won't matter. He will be issuing executive orders left and right that do all kinds of crazy things. The Supreme Court will say thumbs up. They're going to hear a case in April on presidential immunity that may throw all of this out the window anyway. Remember when he said in 2016, "I can go on Fifth Avenue and shoot someone and it won't impact my support"? That case tests that. And if he wins that case, what we're talking about doesn't even matter. So there's a lot on the line. He's tested this at every turn—whether he needs to pay people, whether he can lie and say whatever he wants. That's what we're up against.

And here's the honest part, since you say we don't be honest enough: I am so pissed off about the fact that there are things my people need that may end up having to take a back seat to protect this raggedy country from itself again. But my people have always been patriotic since Crispus Attucks, and we always do what we need to do. I'm tired of that. But I also do not want to see this dude back in the White House to see how far he can go. I just can't.

Noel King: Given the relationship between you two, the evidently close relationship, I do have to ask you about something. In 2020, you endorsed Joe Biden. It was a big deal. I endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris. Of course, Joe Biden got the shine as well. This year, you have not made an endorsement. You hear how Angela speaks. You hear what your very well-informed friend says is at stake. Are you going to endorse anyone this year?

Charlemagne tha God: No, I'm endorsing democracy. I think you should go out there and you should vote to keep this democracy alive. So it's clear as day. All you got to do is—we're not even talking hyperbole when we have these conversations. Not only has Trump said the things Angela just said, he said he wants to do these things. We've got some pretty good examples of what he's capable of. January 6th, 2021 was a pretty cut and dry situation. That was an attempted coup of this country. And you also have a man who doesn't believe in the Constitution. When you say you should suspend the Constitution to overthrow the results of an election, and his lawyer says he didn't sign up to support the Constitution—that tells you where we're going.

Noel King: Why do people say that you are funneling your audience toward Trump?

Charlemagne tha God: Because people are stupid as hell. It's really that simple. Nobody's listening to the nuance of the conversation. Left-wing media does a terrible job of amplifying their narratives. Right-wing media does a great job of amplifying their narratives. For example, I was on ABC this week. I was speaking about Trump, saying he's a threat to democracy and a fascist, that he led an attempted coup. Then I got asked, "Joe Biden says a lot of these things. How come it doesn't resonate?" I said, "Because he's an uninspiring candidate. He doesn't have main character energy. Nobody's listening to things that come out of his mouth." So Fox will take that part and amplify it. Then MSNBC and CNN will talk about that instead of talking about why I said Trump is a threat to democracy and a fascist. So once again—and he being Trump in this instance—right-wing media does a great job of pushing the narrative they want amplified. Left-wing media does a terrible job of pushing the narrative they want to push and does a great job of helping amplify right-wing talking points. That's why people say I'm pushing for Trump, which is so silly to me. But whatever.

Noel King: Next question.

Audience Member 2: I got two questions—one serious, one unserious. My name is Darius. The first question is: if they asked you to be a moderator for the presidential debate, would you do that? [He's talking to you.]

Charlemagne tha God: Both of you?

Audience Member 2: Is that the unserious question?

Charlemagne tha God: No, no.

Audience Member 2: The unserious one is: you're a big mental health advocate—

Charlemagne tha God: To answer your first question, I would do it if I could have the proper people around me like Angela Rye. I think having moderators there that can really call BS on some things would be good for the country.

Noel King: Angela, would you do it too?

Angela Rye: Would I what? Be a presidential moderator? Yeah, I would definitely moderate. I think that's to the point, Noel—that's why you can't endorse. When you decide you're going to be serious about journalism, you can't endorse, you can't contribute to candidates or campaigns. But Donald Trump doesn't want to see us. Neither does Biden. Oh, Lord. It's true.

Audience Member 2: And my answer is for Charlamagne. You said you're a big advocate for mental health. How much mental health does Taylor's mama pie have effect on you?

Charlemagne tha God: Man, I'm getting old. My hearing is going. What did you say? I didn't hear what he said. What was the last thing you said?

Audience Member 2: How much mental health does Taylor's mama pie have on you?

Charlemagne tha God: Who? Taylor's mama pie? Oh, okay. Now he knows. I still don't know what he said.

Noel King: That's an inside joke. That's Brilliant Idiots. Answer the question.

Charlemagne tha God: He said, "How much mental health does Taylor's mama pie have?" Is it good for your mental too? Oh, absolutely. Taylor is a young woman who works for me. She works at Breakfast Club, she works at Black Effect, and she works at the Brilliant Idiots podcast. Her mom makes amazing pies around Thanksgiving time. Her mom loves to give me her pie, and I love it. It's really good for my emotional and mental well-being. Those pies feel like a hug.

Noel King: Alright, we got time for one or two more questions. Over here.

Audience Member 1: What's up, Charlamagne? Do me a favor. When you go back home to New York, invite a third-party candidate named Claudia De La Cruz from the Bronx. She's a good candidate. She's third party, running for Party for Socialism and Liberation. She just won the California primary. Everybody in the room, open your algorithm because there are third party options. There are other party candidates, and we've got to get out of this.

Noel King: Angela, I want to give you the last thought on third-party candidates.

Angela Rye: Yeah, I think it's really important when we say "misinformation" that even when we speak with passion, we have to be factually accurate. I'm not sure what the sister you just raised won, but the presidential primary—that's not true. So I think the main thing is I want to make sure we're very deliberate about creating space for us to reimagine. I keep pointing to Tip because there are all these bars she drops on our podcast weekly. Reimagine something different and better for us. And I thank God for you, brother, for having a bigger and better imagination for us. But I still want to be careful with the terms we use, even in our frustration, in our deserved, righteous anger. We should have that. But I also think we've got to be clear about where we are. We're less than a year out from an election. And I refuse to say that Joe Biden and Donald Trump are the same. They're just not. That doesn't mean we don't deserve better. There are a gazillion ways for us to get to better. We can have better representation on the gubernatorial level. Do you know this country has never elected a black woman governor? Ever. It's 2024. Never. We have one black man governor right now. The other one running in North Carolina is a black man Republican who sounds like Donald Trump. So I'm not saying all your skinfolk are your kinfolk. They're not.

I remember my dad, after Nelson Mandela was free and came home, he had this poster that someone like a godfather to me, Tony Orange, had given him. It was a representation of all these parties in South Africa, even down to a soccer party. And I've always imagined we could have a democracy that was that diverse. People who only cared about soccer got a party. People who only cared about labor. Folks who only cared about education. We do deserve that, but we don't have that right now. So we've got some dreaming to do. We've got some creating to do. We've got some coloring outside the lines to do. But let's do that when we can still have a democracy. That's the basics right now.

Noel King: Alright. Charlamagne Tha God, Angela Rye. Thank you guys so much. Guys, let's give you a big hand. Thank you for coming out today.

Charlemagne tha God: Thank you.

Angela Rye: Thank you for having us.

Noel King: Thank you, Noel.

[Applause]

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