--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Noelle King: Like any winning political coalition, MAGA united a lot of factions. The nativists, the populists, the VCs, some CEOs, some podcast bros. A far-right authorization on the U— Ultra— Ultra— Ultra— Oh my God! Ultra-analytist. MAGA is what they have in common. The rest is a crapshoot. And recently, fissures emerged after President-elect Trump appointed Sriram Krishnan to be his senior policy advisor on AI. Mr. Krishnan is an immigrant from India. What followed was racism. And what followed that was a real fight that pits MAGA's anti-immigrant wing against tech employers like Elon Musk, who make liberal use of visas for their foreign workers, and tiger dad Vivek Ramaswamy, who wants you home no later than six.
--:-- Noelle King: What all this portends for MAGA? Coming up next. The girls are fighting! Support for this show comes from ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into, don't you know? That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 use the ServiceNow AI platform. Didn't know that. While other platforms duct tape tools together, ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows, and AI, connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters most. I've never met an AI agent. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.
--:-- Noelle King: Support for this show comes from strawberry.me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Or are you stuck in one you've outgrown? Or never wanted in the first place? Sure, you can probably list the reasons for staying. But are they actually just excuses for not leaving? Let a career coach from strawberry.me help you get unstuck. Discover the benefits of having a dedicated career coach in your corner. Go to strawberry.me slash unstuck to claim a special offer. You're listening to Today Explained. I'm Noelle King with Vox, senior politics correspondent Andrew Prokop.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The girls are fighting over the H-1B visa. What is it?
--:-- Noelle King: This is a program that lets companies bring skilled foreign workers to the U.S. to work in specific jobs. And it's heavily used in Silicon Valley and the tech economy to bring in engineers. These tend to be pretty highly paid or reasonably paid workers. The median salary for an H-1B recipient is about $125,000. And there's long been an argument over this with the immigration skeptical and populist faction of the right and also parts of the left saying that this is a program that's in effect hurting American workers by bringing in more foreign workers to compete with them to hold their wages down, etc.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Okay, so that fight has been going on for a couple of years now. What happened to start the latest iteration of it?
--:-- Noelle King: You know, this is an issue where Trump himself has conflicting impulses, and he said various things over the years. If you go back to 2016, Trump was going back and forth between saying two things. The first was, we need highly skilled people in this country, and if we can't do it, we'll get them in. The second is, right now, Widespread abuse in our immigration system is allowing American workers of all backgrounds to be replaced by workers brought in from other countries to fill the same job for sometimes less pay. This will stop.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You know, it's split the Republican Party for a long time with the pro-business faction of the party being more pro-H-1B visa generally and the kind of populist and nativist faction being against it. Now, an interesting development happened when Trump scored these big endorsements from major figures in the tech world about the summer of 2024.
--:-- Noelle King: We did a show on that. Yes, yes. So Elon Musk, obviously, everyone knows him. But there's also David Sachs, who worked with Musk at PayPal and in the Twitter takeover. So Trump goes on David Sachs' podcast, a podcast he hosts with other venture capitalists called the All In Podcast over the summer. One of the hosts asks Trump, can you please promise us you will give us more ability to import the best and brightest around the world to America?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I do promise, but I happen to agree. That's why I promise. Otherwise, I wouldn't promise. Let me just tell you that.
--:-- Noelle King: Fast forward to Trump wins the election. He appoints Elon Musk to head this new, whatever you call it, Department of Government Efficiency, some outside advisory board. We don't even know whether it will have any power or what the heck will be going on with it. But big, you know, flashy job for Elon Musk. Also a big flashy job for David Sachs. He gets named the White House AI czar.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So big role in charge of AI policy. So Trump has been announcing other new appointees. On December 22nd, he announces that he is appointing as a White House AI advisor another venture capitalist, a friend of SAC's named Sriram Krishnan.
--:-- Noelle King: Okay. That is when Laura Loomer enters the story. Laura Loomer is just this far right provocateur, you know, says all sorts of offensive and racist things, including that the September 11th attacks are an inside job. She recently said that Kamala Harris, whose mother was Indian, if she wins in November, quote, the White House will smell like curry.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So she responds to this appointment by saying it's deeply disturbing, this appointment, because she found previous tweets by Sriram Krishnan in which he said that, let me pull up the exact words. Anything to remove country caps for green cards slash unlock skilled immigration would be huge.
--:-- Noelle King: So right after Trump wins Krishnan basically posts that basically saying yes more skilled immigration This is what we need And so Laura Loomer says no this is not the America First policy It alarming to see the number of career leftists who are now being appointed to serve in Trump administration when they share views that are in direct opposition to Trump's America First agenda.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And then David Sachs weighs in trying to defend Krishnan. You'll be happy to know that no one on the AI team will be working on immigration policy. So their views on green cards will be irrelevant.
--:-- Noelle King: And basically this becomes a very ugly fight. Loomer starts saying some pretty offensive things, denouncing third world invaders from India, says our country was built by white Europeans. this becomes a larger battle over why are these venture capitalists and these tech executives in the views of the MAGA right, why are they so set on bringing in more foreign workers rather than hiring Americans?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And of course, the underlying not so subtle implication is that a lot of these recipients are from India. I believe around 70% of H-1B visa recipients have been from India in recent years.
--:-- Noelle King: So this takes on like a kind of ugly anti-India tone in a lot of these critiques of the program. And so then Elon gets involved. Elon says there's a permanent shortage of excellent engineering talent. He says this is the fundamental limiting factor in Silicon Valley.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And so the other MAGA people push back at him. And then Elon responds, the reason I'm in America, along with so many critical people who built SpaceX, Tesla, and hundreds of other companies that made America strong is because of H-1B.
--:-- Noelle King: Take a big step back and fuck yourself in the face. I will go to war on this issue, the likes of which you cannot possibly comprehend.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So things are getting pretty ugly. Steve Bannon, former White House chief strategist, and now another far-right commentator, chimes in. He says that, They're recent converts, and we love converts. But the converts sit in the back and study for years and years and years to make sure you understand the faith and you understand the nuances of the faith and understand how you can internalize the faith. Don't come up and go to the pulpit in your first week here and start lecturing people about the way things are going to be. If you're going to do that, we're going to get and we're going to rip your face off.
--:-- Noelle King: And then there's another twist when Vivek Ramaswamy joins the conversation. Tell us everything. Yes, yes. So Vivek, former GOP presidential candidate, biotech CEO, he is going to be running Doge alongside Elon. So he wrote a very lengthy post on X saying, basically defending top tech companies for, in his words, often hiring foreign-born and first-generation engineers over, quote, Native Americans.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He says this is because of the C word, culture. Because our American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence for way too long, at least since the 90s. Likely longer. He says that American culture celebrates the prom queen over the math Olympiad champ, the jock over the valedictorian, and that that's a culture that won't produce the best engineers.
--:-- Noelle King: He goes further. He trashes American culture for venerating Cory from Boy Meets World. Okay, could I just ask one more question about the, you know, the written thing that you put a grade on that tells our parents we're idiots? We deserved that one. Instead of watching so many reruns of Friends, Americans need to have more movies like Whiplash, which is the 2014 film about a dark psychological drama about a jazz drummer being psychologically abused into achieving artistic greatness.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Alternis, you want to clean the blood off my drum set? It's definitely an interesting fight to pick for a new appointee who's going to be supposedly in charge of recommending government spending cuts to be like, actually, I think American culture is bad.
--:-- Noelle King: And so there was a big backlash on the right, a further backlash against Vivek. Now, of course, because he is Indian American, there's a lot of anti-Indian comments and racism being thrown in here. But, you know, on the night that Vivek issued that very long post, there was another post that was interesting coming from a man named Stephen Miller, basically ran immigration policy for Trump's first term and will likely do it again.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He's going to be Deputy White House Chief of Staff. He posted, without explanation, excerpts from a speech Trump gave four years ago in which Trump praises American culture. We are the culture that put up the Hoover Dam, laid down the highways, and sculpted the skyline of Manhattan. We are the people who dreamed a spectacular dream. It was called Las Vegas in the Nevada desert.
--:-- Noelle King: So Miller is not directly saying, unlike Vivek Ramaswamy, I think American culture is great. But a lot of people on the right view this as a sort of coded response to Ramaswamy. Bannon pointed this out and others saying that, oh, so this is kind of interesting. Like this is a guy who's going to hold immense power in the Trump White House who wants to sort of send a message here that he's not on board with the kind of stuff that the bake is saying.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: It's a wonderful debate with a lot to think about. And but what it comes down to is this was a fight over a particular type of visa that the incoming president is either going to support or not support. Who wins the fight? Well, that is why Stephen Miller is so important, because I said before that Trump is his instincts pull him in different directions on H-1Bs. And he says different things at different times.
--:-- Noelle King: But if you look at his policy in his first term, it was very restrictive. He his administration worked kind of tirelessly to try to restrict the program, rein it in. And then when the pandemic broke out, they canceled or they stopped issuing new H-1Bs entirely. And that was because of Stephen Miller.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Now the tech people are trying to gain influence in Trump's second term. And that puts them on a collision course with Miller. And so there is going to be a battle for Trump's favor. but there will also be a bureaucratic battle because it difficult to win a bureaucratic war of attrition with Stephen Miller
--:-- Noelle King: What held the expanded MAGA coalition together in 2024 was a common enemy It was Biden, Democrats, the left, wokeness, cancel culture, things like that. United all of these people and they were on the same team and they were all working to elect Donald Trump. But now that Trump has won, then they have to decide, OK, well, what are we going to actually going to do governing the country? And it turns out that the movement is very divided on that.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Our man in Washington, Andrew Prokop, APROC. Coming up, another great rift in the MAGA universe. Support for today's show comes from Adio. What is Adio?
--:-- Noelle King: Adio is an AI-native customer relationship management system built specifically for the next era of companies. They say it's extremely powerful, adapts to your unique data structures and scales with any business model. According to Adio, Adio takes less than a minute to set up, and within seconds you will have your email and calendars synced. You'll see all your relationships in a fully-fledged platform, they say, all enriched with that actionable data. And they say you can build AI-powered automations and use its research agent to tackle some of your most complex processes so that you can focus on what matters, building your company.
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--:-- Noelle King: Support for this show comes from Macy's. It's almost fall, and that means it's time to cycle your wardrobe to the cold setting. Because while everyone loves a breezy summer outfit, let's be real, layering is even more fun. That's why Macy's Fall Fashion Guide has everything you need to piece together the perfect look for you. It's your one-stop shop for fall's latest trends and must-haves, curated by their experts.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Add a statement shoe to your collection, like the calf hair loafers from Steve Madden. Or tap into your romantic side with flowy dresses from CeCe and sheer pieces from INC. You can even throw in some textural layers for contrast, like a faux fur bomber jacket from Karl Lagerfeld Paris.
--:-- Noelle King: Whether your old favorite sweater or coat is on its last threads, or you're just craving a new vibe to switch things up, Macy's has got you covered this season. Find the perfect layering pieces for you by exploring the Macy's Fall Fashion Style Guide. Shop in-store or online at Macy's.com.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Support for Today Explained comes from Upwork. If you run a business, you know that scaling your business requires the right expertise at the right time. With Upwork, you can find specialized freelancers in IT, web development, AI, design, admin support, marketing, and more experts who they say are ready to help you take your business to the next level.
--:-- Noelle King: With more than two decades of experience, Upwork has a simple and ambitious goal to pioneer a better way of working. Companies at every stage turn to Upwork to get things done and find more flexibility in the way they staff key projects and initiatives by accessing a global marketplace full of top talent.
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--:-- Noelle King: That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com, Upwork.com. Today Explained is back with Tim Higgins. He's a business columnist for The Wall Street Journal. His unofficial beat is Elon Musk. All right. Even as Elon was X-ing his way through the fight over visas, he was also causing disarray in our nation's capital.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Just days earlier, he was stirring the pot on Capitol Hill, making it very clear that he was unhappy with a measure being proposed by the Speaker of the House, the Republican Speaker of the House, to extend spending for a few months to keep the government open.
--:-- Noelle King: The current bill was scrapped after President-elect Donald Trump and Doge founders Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy torched the package online.
--:-- Tim Higgins: House Republicans have now unilaterally decided to break a bipartisan agreement that they made. And a discord among Republicans this week could spell trouble for Donald Trump in his second term.
--:-- Noelle King: They thought they had a deal and then Elon swooped in and helped torpedo it, generating support against the measure and really showing kind of the power he has to shape debate in Congress among people who are elected, despite the fact he's not elected.
--:-- Tim Higgins: How did he go after Johnson's legislation? What did he say exactly?
--:-- Noelle King: Oh, he had lots of things to say. He called it criminal on X, one of the worst bills ever written. he said any member of the House or Senate who votes for this outrageous spending bill deserves to be voted out in two years. And that's quoting from one of his tweets.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And then he began praising those people who were coming out and vowing against it, almost trying to encourage people to raise their hand to say, I'm not going to vote for it in the House. And the Republicans really had a very narrow margin to pass it on a party lines.
--:-- Noelle King: Personally, as a member, I have to vote no, because I'm not voting for this, kind of garbage. This is a bad bill. It should not pass. Elon Musk is correct. A lot of my colleagues are correct. In my view, we should go back.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Just days, weeks earlier, it was like a celebratory atmosphere, right? Donald Trump down in Mar-a-Lago, his club in Florida, Elon Musk there, they're going out in public, being photographed and videoed at numerous events. I think of the Army-Navy football game.
--:-- Noelle King: And in the background, these pictures, oftentimes Speaker Johnson is there as well. It is kind of creating this image that everybody's working together and excited to be there. And then you have this kind of fracas occur.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Now Speaker Johnson would say that he too liked this measure but it was kind of needed to get done He talked about how he was in contact with Musk and illustrating that he is trying to stay close to what Elon Musk is thinking and trying to navigate a very tough situation
--:-- Noelle King: I was communicating with Elon last night. Elon and Vivek and I are on a text chain together, and I was explaining to them the background of this. And Vivek and I-
--:-- Tim Higgins: Okay, so Johnson's saying, look, it's imperfect, but we have to fund the government. And Musk, who incidentally was not elected and therefore does not have the same kind of pressures as those who serve in Congress is saying, no, I don't care. I don't like it.
--:-- Noelle King: Did Elon Musk get what he wanted? What was the impact of his involvement?
--:-- Tim Higgins: Yeah, this is an interesting situation where you have these elected officials at the negotiating table trying to figure things out. And then you have Elon Musk kind of hanging over those talks. Speaker Johnson went back, negotiated and figured out something. Elon came out in support of that, that the second attempt didn't pass, but eventually the third measure did.
--:-- Noelle King: And essentially, in a lot of ways, Elon got what he wanted because the first measure didn't pass. But he didn't necessarily demonstrate an ability to kind of get people to vote for the slimmed down versions.
--:-- Tim Higgins: It's one thing to kind of blow up talks. So we've seen And some House Republicans in recent years showed that ability when there's such a narrow margin of victory. But it's another thing to build a consensus to get legislation passed or build consensus on kind of a way forward on certain things.
--:-- Noelle King: And so that's kind of what we're looking for from Elon in the next few weeks and months ahead. You know, this could be a new education for Elon Musk as he goes to Washington.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Do you think there is a similarity here between this fight in Congress and this fight online over immigration and Elon Musk playing a role in both?
--:-- Noelle King: Elon Musk's experience with House Republicans over the spending measure and then his experience with members of the MAGA party over this skilled immigration issue kind of illustrates that these political battles aren't going to be easy.
--:-- Tim Higgins: The Trump victory in November was built by a large coalition of people within that tent. But these two episodes kind of illustrate that he's not afraid of kind of running over people in a way that you don't traditionally see business people who aren't elected do.
--:-- Noelle King: That kind of suggests that perhaps he plays the role in a Trump administration where he can be the wild card or he can be the hammer. The threat that's going to be brought in if negotiations don't go the way that Trump or Elon wants, there's always Elon out there who can kind of stir the pot with his echo verse and kind of direct the spotlight of what it's like to be in Elon's kind of laser beam.
--:-- Tim Higgins: It's always there. It's always there as long as – and correct me if I'm wrong here – as long as Elon Musk has Donald Trump.
--:-- Noelle King: No, it's interesting. The threat of Elon not kind of in the Trump world is a very real threat as well. He has that megaphone. And so does he become a liability? Does he become kind of create problems?
--:-- Tim Higgins: I mean, that's kind of the wild card out there, right? But you're right in the fact that by playing nice and being aligned with Trump, he just has so much more power than he's ever had.
--:-- Noelle King: And that probably underscores why Elon will probably try to work as best as he can with the Trump administration. But no, he's not going to be president, that I can tell you. And I'm safe. You know why? He can't be. He wasn't born in this country.
--:-- Tim Higgins: MAGA is a movement of rival, as are many movements. This enormous coalition of people united to get Donald Trump elected. And yet under the umbrella, there were lots of differing points of view on things like how should the government spend money, how much money, which immigrants should be invited into the country.
--:-- Noelle King: We're now seeing a sneak peek at some of those differences playing out in real life. Do you think we're going to see more of this in 2025? Do you think maybe the honeymoon is over between all of these different factions that sought to get Donald Trump into the presidency?
--:-- Tim Higgins: I imagine that it's going to be a lot of chaos in the months to come in Washington. He's talked about it. He expects to make people unhappy. He expects to ruffle feathers. And in part, that's perhaps some of his strength is that if people are unhappy and they're out there complaining about him, he's kind of accustomed to that.
--:-- Noelle King: I remember once talking to him about somebody had told him that what his idea wasn't going to work out, it wasn't possible. And he's like, well, people always tell me things aren't possible. And that's kind of the chip on his shoulder is proving to people that something's not possible is possible.
--:-- Tim Higgins: And he's been told that you can't cut government, that this isn't going to be possible. and he's already working out ways to kind of do that, whether it's with Congress's help or administrative ways or legal ways. He's trying to think outside the box and kind of use the moment to do kind of what he thinks is important.
--:-- Noelle King: And so by its very nature would suggest there's going to be a lot of fights ahead for Elon Musk in Washington, D.C.
--:-- Tim Higgins: Tim Higgins of The Wall Street Journal. Thanks to him.
--:-- Noelle King: Amanda Llewellyn produced today's episode. Amina El-Sadi edited. Patrick Boyd and Rob Byers engineered. And Laura Bullard checked the facts. I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. Thank you.
