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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained, I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Noel King: And I'm Noel King.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today, we're talking about the World Cup. It's finally here. And if you're looking for a country to cheer for, consider Egypt. The team might not be the most storied or stacked, but it's got Mohamed Salah. Our guest is the New York Times' chief soccer correspondent, Rory Smith.
--:-- Rory Smith: Thanks for having me on the show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, Rory, who is Mo Salah?
--:-- Rory Smith: Mo Salah is Egypt's best player. He's a forward for Liverpool. He set the record for most goals scored in a single Premier League season in England.
--:-- Noel King: 32 Premier League goals in a 38-game season. That's a new Premier League record.
--:-- Rory Smith: That's right. And he's the shooting star of European soccer.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's he like? He's quite smiley, he's quite happy, he seems really down to earth, really humble, that all helps.
--:-- Rory Smith: He's not kind of a polished superstar, he doesn't look like Cristiano Ronaldo, who's, along with Lionel Messi, the two most famous players in the world. Ronaldo is a marketing man's dream, he's primped and preened to within an inch of his life. Mo Salah kind of looks a bit like he just got out of bed.
--:-- Noel King: He's got kind of a boy-next-door quality about him almost.
--:-- Rory Smith: When we had the chance to score, we scored. Yes, you did.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What do you remember about the goal?
--:-- Rory Smith: It's a great feeling. And it's taken him to people's hearts.
--:-- Noel King: So, how does it compare to the biggest stars in soccer, Messi, Ronaldo?
--:-- Rory Smith: So do people talk about him in those same conversations? Not quite, not yet, because the season he's had has broken all sorts of records in England, but Messi and Ronaldo have been having those seasons for 10 years. So he's not quite Jordan, but he's on the road to being Jordan, which is not a bad place to be on.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Where did Mo Salah come from? What's his story?
--:-- Rory Smith: So he is from a village called Nagrib in Egypt, which I think is north of Cairo. He started out as a kid playing on the streets. And was spotted by a club called Arab Contractors. Then went to Switzerland. From there he was signed by Chelsea. Didn't work out for him there. He went to Italy to kind of rebuild his career. And Liverpool bought him last summer for about $45 million.
--:-- Noel King: Took Liverpool to the Champions League final. Which is the most glamorous fixture in the biggest club competition in the world.
--:-- Rory Smith: Liverpool lost, Salah hurt his shoulder. He seems to have recovered. Hopefully fit for the first game, they're not quite sure but very much the man that everybody is watching.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How rare is it for an Egyptian soccer player to get this kind of attention, to get a $45 million contract?
--:-- Rory Smith: The fact that an Egyptian player is being talked about in those terms is incredibly rare. From a national point of view, Salah is a hero beyond all compare, really.
--:-- Noel King: His face is everywhere in Cairo. There's murals of him. He's on billboards. He's on bed linen. He's on Ramadan lanterns. He's on everything you can imagine.
--:-- Rory Smith: There was a story that in the presidential election a couple of months ago, both candidates were considered so unpopular that as many as a million people wrote in Mohamed Salah's name in the presidential election.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A million people? I don't believe that's true.
--:-- Rory Smith: Okay, fair. It's got bitter and bitter with each retelling. But I can believe that quite a lot of people maybe wrote in his name.
--:-- Noel King: So how big a deal is it that this Egyptian now plays for the English Premier League?
--:-- Rory Smith: I would say it's quite a big deal. Obviously, I'm biased. I'm a lifelong soccer fan. But it is watched by millions of people each week across the planet. I would say it is the most popular league in the most popular sports in the world.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It has a reach that even the NBA can't quite match.
--:-- Rory Smith: You'll have conversations with Nigerian Chelsea fans or Indian Arsenal fans, and they feel it as intensely as someone who lived next door to the stadium.
--:-- Noel King: There is no shortage of passion no matter where you're from.
--:-- Rory Smith: If you went around the world and you said Egypt to people, the first word that would come out of most people's mouths at the moment would probably be Salah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he's not just this great Egyptian soccer player. He's also this great Egyptian Muslim soccer player, right?
--:-- Rory Smith: Yeah, and that's really significant. So there's no shortage of Muslim players, but Salah is different, I think, in three ways.
--:-- Noel King: One is what he's done. The winner player of the year 2018 is Mohamed Salah of Liverpool and Egypt.
--:-- Rory Smith: To have the sort of season he had is incredibly rare for anyone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The other is that he is a kind of visible Muslim. So after every goal, and there have been a lot of goals, he performs to Jude and takes a moment to kneel on the pitch in prayer.
--:-- Rory Smith: He points to the sky. He washes himself before every game. He's Muslim and he is doing all the things what Muslims are doing before a game, washing procedures and stuff like that.
--:-- Noel King: So we come a minute or two minutes earlier in the dressing room that he can be ready for the game.
--:-- Rory Smith: And the other thing that's really important is that he is Arab. Best Arab player of the year. Mohammed Saleh. Mohammed Saleh.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think that is really important at this point in time where there is so much cultural tension about Islamophobia.
--:-- Rory Smith: The fact that he's not just accepted, not just tolerated, but actively adored by a significant proportion of the population, I think is really significant.
--:-- Noel King: And those three things combined give him a power that seems quite rare to me at a time when it's not easy necessarily to be a Muslim in Britain.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So you've got this constantly goal-scoring Muslim player in England. What's it like to not be Mo Salah in England? What's it like for a regular Muslim there right now?
--:-- Rory Smith: There is a rising rate of Islamophobia. We've seen Islamophobic attacks. Telmama, who are a charity who monitor Islamophobia, they suggested that there was a 47% rise in Islamophobic incidents in 2016.
--:-- Noel King: I think Merseyside Police, it was 75% between 2012 and 2016.
--:-- Rory Smith: And that's something that is mirrored across the country, that there is a rising trend of Islamophobia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How does that stuff translate onto the field? Is Mo Salah feeling any racial hatred or any sort of xenophobia, Islamophobia while playing?
--:-- Rory Smith: Not that has been reported on, not that has been picked up. If anything, it's the opposite.
--:-- Noel King: There are several songs that have kind of done the rounds on social media, invented by Liverpool fans, that actively celebrate the fact that Salah is a Muslim.
--:-- Rory Smith: There's one to say that if he scores another few, then I'll be Muslim too. Sitting in a mosque. There's one about sitting in a mosque. Yeah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's sitting in the mosque, that's where I want to be.
--:-- Rory Smith: There's one that says, which obviously helps because it rhymes. He's nicknamed the Egyptian king by Liverpool fans.
--:-- Noel King: There's a song that you hear endlessly at Anfield where Liverpool play their home games. Moussala, the Egyptian king. Moussala, the Egyptian king. Moussala, running down the wing.
--:-- Rory Smith: But the fact that it's not being brushed aside is significant. The fact that they feel comfortable singing about it in the context, I think it's meant positively rather than negatively, and that, I think, is encouraging.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He has changed the perception of some of the negative belief that people have about the Islamic faith.
--:-- Rory Smith: This is the model that we're looking forward for whole of Britain, really. People like him who can bring us all together.
--:-- Noel King: I think Mo has given us a gift that we will not forget.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mo Salah is treasured in the United Kingdom. In Egypt. He has fans all over the Middle East, all over the world.
--:-- Rory Smith: But now he's heading to Russia, where soccer fans are racist in a sort of legendary way.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's next on Today Explained.
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--:-- Noel King: You can go to mattressfirm.com slash podcast to find out more about mattresses and use the discount code podcast10 to get 10% off your next mattress.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can also go to a mattress firm store near you.
--:-- Noel King: Another thing, if you've got room for another daily news podcast, check out The Daily Zeitgeist. It's a daily comedy news podcast from the HowStuffWorks crew and Jack O'Brien.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You might know Jack from Cracked.com or the Cracked podcast, which you used to host.
--:-- Noel King: Anyway, every weekday, Jack and his co-host Miles Gray and another guest comedian will take you through the most important events and ideas in the news, and they'll make you laugh while they're doing it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find The Daily Zeitgeist wherever you find this podcast and all your other podcasts.
--:-- Rory Smith: Rory, Russia isn't the most popular kid on the block right now. How did they end up with the World Cup? Isn't that a big responsibility?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It is an enormous responsibility. It's one that they were given eight years ago in 2010, kind of unexpectedly.
--:-- Noel King: Let's take you there now, listening to what PM Putin's got to say.
--:-- Rory Smith: I'm honoured by your decision. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And as FIFA, the body who awards it, conducted its research into each of the bids, I think Russia's had the highest risk factor in terms of things like terrorism.
--:-- Rory Smith: 2018 World Cup in Russia will be up to the highest standards. They won it anyway, and I think it's probably fair to assume that that process was not entirely clean.
--:-- Noel King: There's allegations that Russia was engaged in vote trading which was against the rules. There may have been attempts to solicit votes with illicit rewards during the investigation.
--:-- Rory Smith: Russia refused to cooperate and said that really unfortunately very sorry we've accidentally destroyed all of the computers we used during the bid. Couldn't be helped that sounds familiar, yeah. I mean, it's kind of a Kremlin version of the dog ain't my homework, I suppose.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's also this tremendous doping scandal in Russia, yeah? I mean, they were basically banned from the Winter Olympics in Pyeongchang?
--:-- Rory Smith: Yeah, they were banned from the Winter Olympics. I think they've been stripped of loads and loads of medals from Sochi, which was held in 2014.
--:-- Noel King: It does seem strange to be hosting a tournament in a country that stands accused of compromising the integrity of sport as a whole, I guess.
--:-- Rory Smith: FIFA have decreed that Russians will not be allowed in the drug testing areas.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there just a fear that Russia might dope its players in the World Cup, its Russian team?
--:-- Rory Smith: Russia would really have to dope really, really well to become quite good at football. The Russian team is pretty bad.
--:-- Noel King: Russia could be pumped full of all sorts of substances and they would not win the World Cup.
--:-- Rory Smith: So does Russia even have a chance to contend here in the World Cup?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Russia's victory in the World Cup is hosting the World Cup, the biggest sporting event on the planet. How the team does is kind of secondary.
--:-- Noel King: They've not really thought about that. So they've spent billions and billions and billions of rubles on stadiums and infrastructure.
--:-- Rory Smith: And most of it, or some of it, has gone to the stadiums and infrastructure and not disappeared into various pockets.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They've not really spent any time trying to build a decent football team.
--:-- Rory Smith: Russia wins because Russia hosts.
--:-- Noel King: So if the name of the game is hosting the World Cup, how might Russia fare now that it has the spotlight?
--:-- Rory Smith: Because they've had plenty of racism of their own in soccer, right? There is a long and shameful list of incidents of black players being abused.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There have been incidents of bananas being thrown at players, of fans performing monkey dances is the only way I can describe it, to racially abuse players.
--:-- Rory Smith: Their clubs have been punished by UEFA, which organises competitions within Europe. They've had to play games without fans. They've had fines. None of the fines are heavy enough.
--:-- Noel King: A football stadium, a sports stadium is a mirror of society. Nothing is happening in that stadium that does not exist outside.
--:-- Rory Smith: That suggests, I think fairly, that racism is still a problem within Russian society. It's a problem that has been around for a long time and doesn't seem particularly to be getting better.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's one quite powerful example from England in the last couple of weeks, and that's Danny Rose.
--:-- Rory Smith: Danny Rose is an English left back, he's black and he revealed a couple of weeks ago that he told his family not to come to Russia.
--:-- Noel King: Danny's had experiences that go beyond just obviously this World Cup back in 2012 he was part of the England Under 21 squad that was, you know, racially abused and targeted out in Serbia.
--:-- Rory Smith: He was so worried about the racial abuse they might get, not him, they might get in their kind of day-to-day walking around Russian cities at stadiums, at games that he didn't want to be worrying about them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I can understand him not wanting his family out there, wanting to focus on his football and not worrying that maybe somewhere, yeah, you know, there's an issue and there's a problem.
--:-- Rory Smith: He said that was really hard for his dad in particular because his dad had always dreamed about seeing his son play in a World Cup.
--:-- Noel King: He's been denied that because Danny Rose doesn't feel that his parents would be safe and that is a shameful thing to have to think about in 1818, but it's an even more shameful thing to have to think about in 2018.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't think he's alone in that. I think there are other players who've probably thought, do you know what, maybe sit this one out. Maybe don't come, don't put yourself through it.
--:-- Rory Smith: And that is kind of the scale of the problem, I guess, that not all the players feel their families are safe at a World Cup, which is meant to be for everybody, not just a certain type of person.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One of the most interesting things about this tournament is how Russia reacts to the world descending on it.
--:-- Rory Smith: And it would be interesting seeing how Russia in terms of the fans reacts to those teams to those players but also to those fans because there will be lots more people of colour who come to Russia over the next four weeks than would normally come to Russia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think that something that everyone who is here is watching out for is to see how the players and the fans who look like Russians are treated by their hosts.
--:-- Rory Smith: I watch a lot of hockey myself, and there's precious few black hockey players, but the NHL is trying to present them in a way to say that this is a sport for everyone.
--:-- Noel King: You can tell when a commentator's out during the finals, You've got P.K. Subban presenting along with other commentators because he's a black player from Canada and represents the game.
--:-- Rory Smith: It seems like one way to sort of stymie this racism we see in professional sports. What's being done in soccer? What's Russia? Is Russia taking any measures for this World Cup saying this is an issue we care about? This is an issue we're doing something to address?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In all honesty, not really.
--:-- Rory Smith: It did appoint a former player as a kind of anti-racism commissioner. I think he said at some point that racism didn't exist in Russia anymore, so it wasn't a problem.
--:-- Noel King: The one thing I would say, and this isn't apologism for them, racism is not a soccer issue just as it's not a hockey issue. Racism is an issue that has roots in society, but the problem itself doesn't come from sport.
--:-- Rory Smith: So asking FIFA to solve racism is, I mean, FIFA are not good for much, and that is certainly a job that's beyond them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That said, of course, they could do more to the countries where it is a sort of systemic problem. That they have to take it seriously.
--:-- Rory Smith: Maybe once or twice a year, a team from Eastern Europe will have an incident of racial abuse at a game, and the punishment is usually a fine.
--:-- Noel King: What would be nice would be to see teams being thrown out of competitions, teams themselves volunteering to punish their fans if they find evidence of racist abuse.
--:-- Rory Smith: It would be nice to see a genuine zero-tolerance approach to it, rather than a kind of cursory tick box.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're trying to do something about it, but hey, it's not really our problem.
--:-- Rory Smith: And do you think to that end, having this World Cup in Russia will be a good thing or a bad thing?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's really hard to be at a World Cup and not get swept away in the celebration of it all.
--:-- Noel King: You know, you've got massive groups of Peruvians wandering around Red Square. People from Panama, there's Costa Ricans, I assume there's nobody left in Argentina.
--:-- Rory Smith: And it's really hard to think that that doesn't have some sort of effect to expose russians to things that maybe they haven't seen before or things they're not used to it can have a positive effect but that's sadly not the same as saying it will have a positive effect and russia is a real test for it because of the relationship between russia and the rest of the world at this point in time it's a real test to see how powerful that effect that party atmosphere can be that's the thing I guess that will define whether this is a successful World Cup is what effect can it have on us and what effect can it have on Russia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And just like we can't expect soccer or football or FIFA to solve racism, I imagine we can't expect Mo Salah to go over to Russia and solve racism.
--:-- Noel King: But what does his playing in this tournament that begins today mean?
--:-- Rory Smith: It means everything to Egypt, mean a lot to Liverpool fans. And I guess as a Muslim, he will come in as the most high-profile Muslim player here and that I think probably means a lot to to people across the Middle East across North Africa knowing that a player who looks like them who believes the same things as them that he is here as a global star I think that is quite important.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm maybe a hopeful naive optimist I always think that these occasions can have a positive influence in the other direction they can help to start to change and shift opinions and views you know for a lot of russians maybe not in moscow and st petersburg but in some of the smaller cities where games are being held it will be the first time they've come into contact with 10 000 peruvians or you know 5 000 fans from nigeria or from japan you'd like to think that within that maybe maybe some people change their minds about things.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Rory Smith writes about soccer for the New York Times.
--:-- Noel King: I'm Sean Rameswaram from this is Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Irene Noguchi is our executive producer.
--:-- Noel King: Bridget McCarthy is our editor.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Noam Hassenfeld and Luke Vanderplug produce.
--:-- Noel King: Afim Shapiro is our engineer most of the time, but Katie McMurrin is our engineer this week.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We have interns now. They're Breeze Seeley and Catherine Wheeler, and the incorruptible Breakmaster Cylinder makes music for us.
--:-- Noel King: Today Explained is produced in association with Stitcher, and we're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hey, my name is Megan Smulders, and I'm from Canada, but I'm actually traveling the world for a year.
--:-- Noel King: And I listened to Today Explained on every single train, plane, and automobile that I take because they're awesome.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think my favorite episode is the six easy steps to a nuclear war.
--:-- Noel King: But if you're not following Today Explained on Twitter, you totally should. You can do that at today underscore explained and click the follow button.
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