--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. Fall is here. Might be time to find some nice new pieces you can wear again and again. With Saks Fifth Avenue, it can be a breeze to shop for your personal style, like maybe a relaxed Prada blazer or Gucci loafers that are great for both work and the weekend.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is very Sean. This is very Sean-coated. Gucci loafers. Saks says Saks makes shopping feel totally customized to you, whether that's from an in-store stylist or a visit to Saks.com, where they can show you just what you want to see. They say they'll even let you know when arrivals from your favorite designers are in or when something you've been eyeing is back in stock.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find inspiration for your personal style every day at Saks Fifth Avenue. Support for the show comes from Charles Schwab. At Schwab, how you invest is your choice, not theirs. That's why when it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can invest and trade on your own. Plus, get advice and more comprehensive wealth solutions to help meet your unique needs. With award-winning service, low costs, and transparent advice, you can manage your wealth your way at Schwab. Visit schwab.com to learn more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: 2020 is finally coming to a close, and we wanted to do something special for you in its final throes. No matter who or where you are, 2020 probably changed you or your life in some fundamental way, and we wanted to end the year by focusing on those changes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This week and next, we're bringing you a series called You, Me, and COVID-19. We're going to talk about the family members you got closer to, the ones you quit. We'll hear about the hobbies you picked up and the dreams you deferred. You're going to hear how musicians were affected by the virus and animals too.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You're going to hear from Dr. Anthony Fauci. But today, we're kicking off the series with a story about home. So it's recording. Okay. I'm going to put it to your ear. Okay. So hi, I'm Kathy Powell. This is my mom, Betty Cow. Hi.
--:-- Kathy Powell: I just moved home due to mostly COVID stuff. But yeah, now we're living in the same house again. She's my daughter, my only daughter. I love her very much. And she's a very independent woman. She has lots of ideas and maybe strong-minded, okay? A lot of times I need to yield to her needs, okay, her demands.
--:-- Kathy Powell: Let's put it that way. Thanks, Mom. Kathy is a millennial. She was born sometime between 81 and 96. She and a lot of her peers have moved home to live with parents because of the pandemic. According to one Pew study, more than half of young Americans have done so this year.
--:-- Kathy Powell: So before all of this happened, I was living in D.C. with two roommates in a townhouse. And I really liked it. I loved my roommates, lots of friends living around. But then after COVID, essentially one of my roommates moved back home to California to be with her family.
--:-- Kathy Powell: And then my other roommate was gone for long periods of time visiting her family and stuff like that. and I figured my family is close by, so it would be nice to spend more time with them and it would make sense to not pay rent since I was close to an office building that I didn't need to go to anymore.
--:-- Kathy Powell: And plus, when you go home, you're comforted. And then so when I called my mom, I was like, they've always wanted me to live closer to them. Exactly, exactly. We've been wanting that to live close to us or even at home, you know? We tried so many tactics before, but she always have her mind saying no.
--:-- Kathy Powell: Keep in mind, I don't live that far. It's like a 45-minute drive. And I get dinner with them once a week. Like pre-COVID, I would come home and get dinner with them once a week. But it's still not enough for us, though, I think.
--:-- Kathy Powell: Yeah, so when I called her, I think she was very surprised on the phone because she stopped talking, and you can tell she doesn't do that very much. I said, yeah, sure, sure, sure, whatever you want. You come home anytime, and as soon as you're ready, we are willing to take you.
--:-- Kathy Powell: And she asked, I could pay you rent. I said, that's okay. I don't need the rent. As long as you're home, I'm happy. And I know that you're safe here with me. That's all I want.
--:-- Kathy Powell: But I know because I grew up in different culture, but for American generations, everybody thinks that you should move away when you're 18. And that's a tradition in a way here, okay? The social stigma I wasn't so concerned about because I think really COVID has changed a lot of that.
--:-- Kathy Powell: I know before, like pre-COVID, it's like, oh, if you move home, like you have somehow, I don't know, like failed or done something wrong and you're like forced to move home. But really now since COVID happened a lot of my friends who are transplants to D have gone home And they all say it temporary but who really knows
--:-- Kathy Powell: But so I think there a lot less stigma around it now just because the situation necessitates that I was a little bit nervous just because like my mom is a loud personality. And being at home with her, both of us working at home, I thought might be a little touch and go depending on whether or not she would burst into my room while I was working or not.
--:-- Kathy Powell: Just like, depending on how the boundaries were set, it might have been a little bit. I've been straight and natural. Yes, you've been very good. My dad's a mailman, so he goes into work every day. So I knew he wouldn't be a big factor, like, during the work day.
--:-- Kathy Powell: Plus, he's like a quiet person. So the biggest X factor would have been my mom. So far, it's been going well. Uh-huh, uh-huh, okay. We try to give each other space, and we share housework. And of course, I'm so glad that she come home and she share cooking dinners. OK, I hate eating my own dinner for the last eight months. Yeah.
--:-- Kathy Powell: I think for both of us, we just have overall less life responsibilities if there's another like responsible adult in the house. I will cook some now. And like it's nice to have my mom's cooking because she's definitely a much better cook than I am, especially in terms of like the Chinese food I grew up eating.
--:-- Kathy Powell: But since she's home, we got more involved. After dinner, we got more involved, like doing some activities together as a family. You and dad still fall asleep on the couch. But we do more things now before we fall asleep, okay? With Kathy home, we have somebody else here, so we know how to try to manage our own time better. Let's put it that way, right?
--:-- Kathy Powell: We do, like you say, we play card together. We watch TV together. Yeah, I tried to teach them how to play hearts. Yes. She didn't like it. Not too complicated for me, let's put it that way, okay? I hate counting points.
--:-- Kathy Powell: But so far, like, I wake up. I told her when I moved in, I was like, okay, please be quiet in the morning. Don't wake me up. Especially when my dad wakes up super early and he'll be, like, in the kitchen banging around. So I was like, all right, like, can we do this? Yes, we try to follow her instructions, okay? Not to wake up early than that.
--:-- Kathy Powell: So we've been walking on the catwalk these days. We did. We've been walking on catwalk, okay? Well, I appreciate it because, I don't know, I don't want to wake up at 6 a.m. There's no point. No, I love her very much. So I'm just happy that she's home.
--:-- Kathy Powell: So I will do everything for now. I don't know how long my own patient will be, but right now we will try to accommodate anything that will keep her here at the house. I will also say she complains about my dad waking up early too, so I don't think it's like an unheard of request. Yeah, Stephen just got too early, okay? I don't like that idea either.
--:-- Kathy Powell: I don't think if stuff returns back to a new normal semblance of that, I think I would definitely still want to live on my own or live with my roommates. It's just I like having that bit of freedom. That's just like, obviously right now, I don't have to tell her where I'm going because I'm not going anywhere.
--:-- Kathy Powell: But if that were a thing, I think I would just get tired of, you know, being accountable to another person because I haven't had to do that for a long time. So if this were forever, I think we would, of course, make it work because, like, what else are you going to do? But I don't think I'd want to live here past COVID.
--:-- Kathy Powell: But I think she probably will be here at least for another year. At least minimum, right? That's a long time. Doesn't make sense to move back here for four months and move back again because that's a lot of working to do. And we have to move. I'll hire movers. It's okay.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: After the break, instead of asking why so many young Kathys are moving home to live with their Bettys, we ask, why were so many Americans not living at home to begin with? Support for today's show comes from Adio. What is Adio?
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Let be honest Are you happy with your job Like really happy The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can say yes to that Far too many of us are stuck in a job we outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place But still, we stick it out, and we give reasons like, what if the next move is even worse?
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram from Young People are moving back in, but there's still a lot of stigma around living with your parents as an adult in the United States. I know from experience, the last time this happened during the Great Recession, I moved home to live with my parents.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the question I always got was, well, so when are you going to move back out? When are you going to get your own place? And we wanted to try and figure out why that is on the show today. So we got in touch with Donna Butts. She's the executive director of Generations United, which means she's a bit of an expert in these matters.
--:-- Donna Butts: You're right about that. We saw a spike in the number of multigenerational households around the Great Recession, around 2008. And so the numbers started to increase, and they were increasing from a really historic low in this country.
--:-- Donna Butts: What was interesting to me is that people may have come together by need. they stayed together by choice because those numbers didn't decline after the economy started to do better. What happened when we started to see an economic recovery? The numbers of multigenerational households stayed the same and actually continued to gradually increase.
--:-- Donna Butts: The demographics are shifting in our country in a couple of different ways, and that does influence multigenerational living. For example, as people live longer, more middle generation members are concerned about their parents' care. And especially during the pandemic, when we saw so many older adults who were isolated in nursing homes and senior care facilities, people wanted their family members out of those situations.
--:-- Donna Butts: So many people brought them home. But also, as people are living longer, many people are starting to outlive their savings or they're starting to need some care. But the other thing is when we look at our diversity and the increases in our diversity in the country, one of the things that new immigrants bring to our country is the richness of the cultures that they bring with them.
--:-- Donna Butts: And many times that means that it's a multi-generational living and it's that respect that people have across the generations and for their elders that they bring with them. For all the skeptics out there who couldn't wait to move away from home, what are the benefits?
--:-- Donna Butts: Well, I understand what you're saying because I could hardly wait to get out of home when I was younger. But there's a number of benefits. One is that as our population ages, people are worried about their aging parents. And to have them live with them, it makes it easier to provide care.
--:-- Donna Butts: But it's also hectic, especially with the pandemic, when young parents have their children at home and they need to be trying to focus on their jobs and also make sure that their children are doing their studies. Studies have shown that children who have grandparents or other relatives that are in their lives, they do better in school because, again, they have that extra help, that extra time to tutor and nurture them.
--:-- Donna Butts: And then financially, because it is tough. It's very expensive now, as we know. to be able to get out on your own. And so to have that support really makes a difference. I think it's probably self-evident to people that moving back in with your parents, if you've got kids, is really beneficial because, hey, free daycare.
--:-- Donna Butts: But this proves to be beneficial for people without kids too? Definitely. When you think about either, you know, we hear about over the years, not just during the pandemic, is if a young person's in their first job, oftentimes they're not making that much money. So they're more able to start to build up some savings to maybe whether they want to go back to school, to graduate school, something like that.
--:-- Donna Butts: It helps them economically. All right. Up next, here's a question. When is the time to grow up and move out? Kathy mentioned that, you know, there is a stigma here. Kimberly, more young men, just your type, are living at home, are living at home with their parents. Oh, boy.
--:-- Kimberly: And I think we should probably talk about that stigma especially in the United States But are we really surprised by this This is the era of the pajama boy That moving in with your parents can appear to some as some sort of failure Returning home broke and struggling to pay bills. As some sort of compromise.
--:-- Kimberly: The world now comes to you, so why go anywhere? But now the stigma may no longer weigh as strong. Maybe it's smart to stay home a little longer, save money. I think, you know, viewing it more as an opportunity and less of a, you know, a bad thing.
--:-- Kimberly: Is that stigma fading away with this sort of second go of millennials having to move back in? I'd say it's starting to fade away. But I think what's crazy is it was ever there in the first place. Many, many other countries have much higher rates of multigenerational households than we do.
--:-- Kimberly: And they see that as a strength. I've always been amazed at my international work, the number of colleagues who will look at me when I'm saying, oh, our numbers are up. We're up to 20% of our families are multigenerational. And they just shake their head like they pity us because it's so low.
--:-- Kimberly: Why did we end up with a stigma in the West to begin with? Why is it a failure here where it's just so normal there? I blame it on John Wayne. Really? The wild country had taught him to survive. John Wayne had that swagger.
--:-- Kimberly: He lived his life and heard it by himself. Had that, I can take on the whole West all by myself, and I don't need anybody to help me. He had a credo that went, I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on.
--:-- Kimberly: There was this time when we really perpetuated a culture of independence, and that that was strong, and that that was what everybody should strive for. and we didn't need anybody else. Here comes John Wayne. I'm not going to cry about my pa. I'm going to build an airport. Put my name on it.
--:-- Kimberly: Why, Michael? So you can fly away from your feelings. Has, like, the government reinforced this sort of, like, ideal that we see in popular culture? We've really striated and segregated people in so many ways.
--:-- Kimberly: There's actually some that's zoning in terms of senior-only communities that don't allow children. And there's housing financing that supports that. Oftentimes in the Older Americans Act, there's funding that's just for senior meal programs as opposed to meal programs.
--:-- Kimberly: Especially right now when you think about kids and trying to make sure that they're getting the meals that normally they get at a school. If we were to think about feeding people that need to be fed, I think we could do things much more efficiently.
--:-- Kimberly: And then there are certain loans, certain housing loans, certain zoning laws that only favor single-family housing units. And has this affected Americans equally, or does it affect some groups more than others? I think that we all have to look at it from more of a racial disparity lens.
--:-- Kimberly: Because when you think about multigenerational families also, oftentimes their larger number of households are new immigrants or people of color. So are we, if we say you can only have a single family house, you can only get financing for a single family house, are we discriminating against groups and ethnicities that know that it's better if they can share a house?
--:-- Kimberly: Do you think the pandemic has sort of taught us something about multi-generational living, or is this potentially a temporary situation for so many people like Kathy and Betty? For some people, it will be temporary, and it will help them get through this time.
--:-- Kimberly: For others, depending on the age of the family members and the circumstances, they, like many people during the recession, will decide that it actually is beneficial and helpful for them to share a home so they'll stay together.
--:-- Kimberly: And what they're proving to everyone is that it's okay. And I think that we can't, like with many other changes in our society, when it becomes more the norm, when we all know somebody, then the stigma starts to decrease. So I do think that it's going to be much more accepted.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Donna, thanks so much. Nice to talk with you. Take care. Goodbye, Nolan. I hope that nail-selling bastard makes you happy this time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Donna Butts is the executive director of Generations United. We had extra help with this episode from Bird Pinkerton, Karen Turner, and Julie Vadnall. As I promised up top, we've got a lot more ground to cover in our series, more on you, me, and COVID-19 tomorrow. Find out more about our series at vox.com slash you, me, COVID-19. It's Today Explained.
