--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I'm Michelle Hackman, a writer for The Wall Street Journal. I cover immigration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Michelle, you've been writing about people who are here illegally, but also people who are here totally legally. How to make sense of all that?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: The way that you have to understand what's going on overarchingly is that Trump promised a mass deportation. He talked about this all through the campaign. Starting on day one, I will seal the border and stop the migrant invasion into our country. We will begin the largest deportation operation in the history of the United States. He promised huge numbers. He was going to go after 15 million people, 20 million people. And from my perspective, he's not meeting that goal.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And one way that he's making up for it is by going for these really big, flashy displays that are going to catch a lot of attention and scare people.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: That's basically what they're designed to do. So it's essentially like vibes. Like he wants the vibes to be, we are resetting the conversation on deportations.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is it happening across the country? It seems like it's been focused on East Coast universities and points of entry.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I think we're seeing deportations up everywhere. And even the university crackdown, I mean, for sure, you've got to understand that this administration is gleeful about targeting some of the nation's most prestigious universities. But we've seen that crackdown, particularly on universities, spread.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What stood out to you was the lack of information. We don't know where the student is. We don't know the student's name. We just don't know what happened.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And without... We had one in the South recently. We demand Dr. Suri's release. Free Butter Con Suri. Free Butter Con Suri.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I think it's much broader than than just sort of the few cases that people are hearing about in the news.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I think that one of the big things that they're doing, and it's a multi-pronged thing, is that they're going after these international students who allegedly participated in pro-Palestine protests.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Trump administration would say they specifically were doing things that supported Hamas.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: If you go apply for a visa right now, anywhere in the world, let me just send this message out. If you apply for a visa to enter the United States and be a student, and you tell us that the reason why you're coming to the United States is not just because you want to write op-eds, but because you want to participate in movements that are involved in doing things like vandalizing universities, harassing students, taking over buildings, creating a ruckus, we're not going to give you a visa.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There was a recent incident with a Tufts University grad student where all she did was write a sort of well-reasoned op-ed in the school newspaper.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Video obtained by NBC News shows her being detained Tuesday by six federal agents not wearing uniforms and masked. Telling her they are the police and taking her away. And there was no allegation that she has violated any law whatsoever.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There was another Iranian grad student, I believe, in Alabama who actually, you know, his friends and colleagues told news that he didn't even participate in any kind of protest, that he was just kind of keeping his head down.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And so it's not even clear what his sort of link was to this whole crackdown.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: University of Alabama student Ali Reza Durudi was detained off campus earlier this week, according to the National Iranian American Council.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: After being held at the Pickens County Jail, he has now been transferred to the ICE Processing Center in Louisiana. Today, his attorney told us he has no information that Durudi presents a threat to national security.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: David Rosal said he has not been arrested for any crime, nor has he participated in any anti-government protests.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And I think in these cases, it's like most striking because people assume that these are students exercising their First Amendment rights as residents of this country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Do students who are here on visas not have First Amendment rights?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I think it's an open question, Sean. I mean, I think people definitely feel like it violates their understanding of the First Amendment and their understanding of what sort of American civil society is and should be like.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But legally, it's actually a much more complicated question than you would think.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I looked into this and yes it's true Visa holders and even some green card holders have fewer First Amendment rights than we do.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the Supreme Court you know a very long time ago in the 1950s has said you can always just use the First Amendment to try to fight a deportation.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: The government actually can potentially deport you because it doesn't like what you're saying.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so, you know, it could be that the Supreme Court will decide, yeah, that was correct. Or they could come back and decide, no, I think in this country, you know, people have the right to freedom of speech and freedom of protest.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: But I think we genuinely don't know right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we haven't seen any American citizens being picked up for, I don't know, speaking their mind, right? Like this has been relegated to people who hold visas?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: That's right. That's right. It has been targeted at foreigners.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay. What about all the people who are getting detained at points of entry?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Yeah. So the thing that I've observed, you know, we've seen this uptick recently in people having issues with their visas when they're flying into the country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: From everything I've seen, a lot of these people are the types of people who maybe would have even had an issue while Biden was president or under a previous administration.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: But their treatment is sort of much worse than it would have been in a past administration.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's catching people's attention.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And the way I'm thinking about it is we're trying to bring up our arrests and our deportations. We're trying to show, we being the Trump administration, they're trying to show that they're taking sort of any kind of immigration violation seriously.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so they've told officers at airports, be aggressive, look for any violations.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: If you find a violation, you know, in the past, often what an officer would have done is say, OK, we're going to let you into the country, but you need to fix your papers and be back here in a week with your fixed papers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Or possibly even we're going to cancel your visa and we're going to put you in court proceedings and you have a court date in two months.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: You better be there. Now they're just throwing people in ICE detention indefinitely.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's surely having an effect on how many people want to come to this country right now, be they from Russia or Western Europe or South America or Asia.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Do we have numbers that suggest that that just demand to come to the United States, be it for for some nice spring tourism or to visit family, you know, going down?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, I think one of the big issues is not just this sort of uptick in detentions, which is scary enough, but people who are coming out of detention, you know, there was a recent spate.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And to me, it seems honestly kind of random, but it was three separate Germans who got detained at either airports or other ports of entry who then came out and said, I was treated horribly.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I was handcuffed. I was shackled. I was held inside for days and I was begging, you know, let me buy my own plane ticket.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: They wouldn't let me leave. This is the sort of thing that I think, frankly, people who are coming from poorer countries or, you know, people who maybe have crossed the border illegally face all the time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But when it happens to, you know, a German tourist or a Canadian and it's something they're really not used to, those people sort of understand that if they go to the media, it's going to cause a stir.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And so that's sort of what's happening.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Even though we don't have actual numbers of people sort of canceling tickets to come to America, that is the talk everywhere.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: I mean, tourists, the German government is actually investigating what's going on.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm hearing from my colleagues that in scientific circles, scientists are saying we maybe need to leave the country or foreign scientists are saying, I don't know if I'm going to go to America to collaborate with these colleagues.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: That seems kind of scary right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One lawyer I spoke to who actually represents a bunch of universities, he said, as the odds go, it's still really, really unlikely that if you're coming into the country with a visa, you're going to be targeted.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: But, you know, he's also saying, am I telling people to be more careful? Absolutely.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, they are they're looking for any excuse to get you and they're going to search all of your paperwork.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: They're going to take your phone, browse through your phone, look at your deleted photos.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so he's saying, you've got to be squeaky clean, because if they find anything, the likelihood that they'll target you is much higher.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for Today Explained comes from Chime. Nobody likes fees and complicated banking, says Chime.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And Chime gets that, says Chime.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chime is a financial technology company that says they understand that every dollar counts.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: So when you set up direct deposit through Chime, they say you get access to fee-free features such as free overdraft coverage, getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit, so much more.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Chime says with qualifying direct deposits, you can be eligible for free overdraft up to $200 on debit card purchases and cash withdrawals.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Plus, they say you don't need to worry about monthly fees or maintenance fees.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can work on your financial goals through Chime today.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: You can open an account in two minutes at Chime.com slash explained.
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--:-- Michelle Hackman: Chime feels like progress.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Support for the show today comes from LifeKit, the podcast from NPR.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: What's in your LifeKit? I'm asking.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They didn't ask that.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Every day you have to make choices that might shape the direction of your life, but you can't flip to the back of the book to find an answer key.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Instead, you can listen to the Life Kit podcast from NPR.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Life Kit offers real stories about common issues like relationships, finances, parenting, and your career.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If you looking to move with more intention or just need thoughtful guidance on living better Life Kit delivers strategies to help you make meaningful sustainable change from fitness routines to mental resilience navigating personal goals to tackling burnout.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Each episode is full of relevant insights and clear takeaways about things we all could use a little help with.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: LifeKit wants to help you approach your own life with confidence and clarity and walk away with a game plan you can implement right away.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Enough from me. Go listen to the show, Life Kit.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's a podcast from NPR.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today explains Sean Ramos from American, but let's just say I know some Canadians.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: In fact, I know a whole bunch of them who tried to enter the United States last week.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And before they did, they were going through their phones, deleting stuff, group chats, DMs, the memes, which had us wondering, can Customs and Border Protection legally search your phone?
--:-- Michelle Hackman: Basically, yes, CBP agents can search your phone at the border.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Your rights, both as an immigrant and as an American citizen, are different at the border than they are in the mainland U.S.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: And when we're talking about the border here, it's not just the physical perimeter of the U.S., but airports or ports of entry can also count as the border.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For purposes of this discussion.
--:-- Michelle Hackman: We asked Nicole Norea at Vox, who's been writing about what to know when you're entering the United States.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Yes, so I'd say that the legal regime on this is a little murky in that, you know, there's kind of a patchwork of rulings across the country on this particular subject.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But yes, as of now, the Supreme Court's been pretty reluctant to weigh in on this issue, which means that CBP agents have been allowed to go search through people's phones.
--:-- Nicole Norea: According to U.S. Customs and Border Protection, When an international traveler is going through customs, they can be referred for a secondary inspection with or without any suspicion of wrongdoing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So citizens, permanent residents and visa holders also all need to understand that if there are any suspicions about them, that their devices, including their computers and their cell phones, could be checked.
--:-- Nicole Norea: And they can go through all of the information in your electronic devices, everything that's not connected to the Internet.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The circumstances under which they can do so are different in different places.
--:-- Nicole Norea: But for the purpose of sort of all of our listeners, I think you should go in prepared for CBP to request access to your phone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Whether you decide to give them that access is a question that you might want to consult with an immigration attorney on.
--:-- Nicole Norea: But we can get into sort of, I guess, like what the sort of considerations are there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And before we do, let me ask you, what do we know is happening with people and their phones?
--:-- Nicole Norea: I've heard various things from friends who are trying to come into this country from say I don't know Canada Canada is absolutely one of the worst.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Who are worried that something might happen to their phones So I heard if you disable face ID they can't have you punch in your number So you can just say you're not going to do it
--:-- Nicole Norea: I've heard of people deleting all of their group chats where there are Trump memes or jokes about the president Everything's computer
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I've heard of people leaving their personal phones at home when traveling abroad.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Even people who are American citizens just traveling with their work phones.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Like, what is going on thus far?
--:-- Nicole Norea: So it's really hard to tell.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In general, these kinds of searches have been pretty rare in the past, but we don't really know how common they have become under the Trump administration.
--:-- Nicole Norea: There definitely have been these isolated reports of people's phones being searched, perhaps in like more invasive ways than we thought was possible before.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, you know, we're talking about CBP officers going through people's social media accounts or going through their text messages.
--:-- Nicole Norea: A French scientist was denied entry into the United States earlier this month.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The scientist's phone contained messages opposing the Trump administration.
--:-- Nicole Norea: There was a German citizen who reported, you know, being denied entry.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She spoke to me from the detention center where she's now been for over a month.
--:-- Nicole Norea: The 29-year-old says she spent over a week in solitary confinement.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Just wanted to get to her, you know?
--:-- Nicole Norea: There was a professor at Brown University.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Justice Department says officers found photos and videos on her cell phone pertaining to Hezbollah.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Authorities canceled her visa and deported her back to Lebanon.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So in some contexts, a lot of this could be considered political speech.
--:-- Nicole Norea: But it seems that, especially like under Trump now, we're in a very sort of murky legal situation now about what is considered protected speech and on what grounds really this administration is trying to remove people or deny them entry to the U.S.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So very uncertain environment right now.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Do we know if you just don't have a phone, if that makes you like more suspicious or less suspicious?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Because, I mean, everyone has a phone now, but like one surefire way to not get in trouble for what's on your phone is to obviously not travel with your phone.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Yeah. So I think this is like where we get into the considerations, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So from what I've been reading and from speaking to immigration attorneys, yeah, it can be a bit of a red flag just to not have a phone on you.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Or alternatively, like you're taking your personal phone and wiping it back to factory settings before you travel.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That can also look a little weird.
--:-- Nicole Norea: So I think, you know, some people have taken the tactic of deleting apps that might have really like delicate personal information on them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But you have to also make sure that they're permanently deleted because there's sort of a recently deleted folder on a lot of phones.
--:-- Nicole Norea: So yeah, like those are kind of considerations and like risks you might want to take.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But, you know, it is worth noting that usually in these inspections, There's like different layers of inspections that can occur.
--:-- Nicole Norea: But in the most basic one, which is typically the one that we're seeing people go through, that does not require a warrant, CBP officers can't access cloud data.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So they will ask you to turn off your Wi-Fi, put your phone on airplane mode before engaging in the search.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Because courts have ruled so far that they can't access cloud-based data.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But that could be subject to change in the future.
--:-- Nicole Norea: So interesting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, well then based on what else we know, what else do we know people can do to safeguard their stuff?
--:-- Nicole Norea: Yeah, so I mean, again, you can consider not traveling with your personal devices.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Oh, sorry. I thought you were going to say don't travel at all.
--:-- Nicole Norea: And I was like, bummer, man.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Immigration attorneys right now are saying maybe reconsider travel.
--:-- Nicole Norea: There's been a few universities that employ a lot of like foreign professors or students and they're saying don't travel out of the country right now especially given that there could be a travel ban coming up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Trump administration is considering a new travel ban on the citizens of more than 43 countries due to policy and security reasons according to officials familiar with the planning
--:-- Nicole Norea: This ban includes three tiers red orange and yellow
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Citizens in the 11 countries listed in the red tier would not be allowed to enter the U.S. until it's lifted.
--:-- Nicole Norea: So, you know, if you're planning to travel to those countries or travel through those countries or are from those countries, it might not be a great time to travel.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Otherwise, I think, you know, there are precautionary measures that you can take here around, you know, disabling face ID if you're a U.S. citizen even, because that will make it harder for people to get into your phone in these situations.
--:-- Nicole Norea: For immigrants in particular, you have to make a decision about whether you want to submit your phone for review.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So you can technically, like, deny CBP access to your phone, let's say, if you've disabled face ID and you don't want to give them your passcode.
--:-- Nicole Norea: But that also comes across as a bit suspicious.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think CBP can then use that as rationale to say we don't have enough information here to say that this person can enter the U.S. and won't pose a threat of some sort.
--:-- Nicole Norea: So there's a lot of decisions that people have to make based on their own personal risk tolerance.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But there are measures that people can take right now.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Okay, so there's a bunch of measures you could take regarding your device.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, chief among them, of course, not traveling at all, or certainly maybe not bringing that phone with you with all the J.D. Vance faces and stuff.
--:-- Nicole Norea: What if you're detained? What happens then?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I think this is the point in which you try to consult an immigration lawyer, or at least make sure that you have one on speed dial.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Have people know that you're traveling. any sort of risk you can mitigate there of you being incommunicado in detention, I think, is a good step to take.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There might be a scenario where you decide then to sort of withdraw your application for admission to the U.S. and say that you would pay for your flight home.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Because from ICE's perspective, that is an expense that they would have to incur and put you on a removal flight.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So if you can do that yourself, you might be sparing yourself a lot of heartache.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah. So ICE picks up the tab on the removal flight, though.
--:-- Nicole Norea: That's nice. How generous of them, I guess.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Another thing that non-citizens should be considering doing right now is carrying their identification documents everywhere they go.
--:-- Nicole Norea: But I think this also, to some extent, applies to citizens because there have been reports of CBP agents and ICE agents potentially engaging in racial profiling, racial and ethnic profiling, and cases where citizens have been detained for a period of time before they were later released and verified to be a citizen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that seems like really horrible advice to have to give.
--:-- Nicole Norea: So I just want to like take a minute to acknowledge that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But this is what immigration attorneys are telling me that, you know, even citizens might consider carrying a passport card, which is something that you can request.
--:-- Nicole Norea: It fits in your wallet and is pretty easy to keep there because of some of these incidents.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For legal citizens, is there less of a concern when, I don't know, you're traveling back into the United States from a fun trip to Mexico City that like the joke that your brother sent you in your Instagram DMs is going to get you in trouble with the U.S. government?
--:-- Nicole Norea: Yes, but also – Is anything sacred?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know, Sean. I think we're at a point now where, you know, these detentions of people based on what many lawyers believe is protected speech is endangering the First Amendment for everyone.
--:-- Nicole Norea: And I think that for that reason, like, it seems like a bit of a slippery slope right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And as a U.S. citizen, I am very concerned about those developments.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Will it stop me from traveling? I don't know.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But it's a very scary environment right now.
--:-- Nicole Norea: And I think that it's worth acknowledging that this is not just affecting immigrants, but it really is eroding all of our rights.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But ultimately, I guess this is a bit of a win for the Trump administration because they don't want people coming here.
--:-- Nicole Norea: And ultimately, this will probably chill people's desire to come to the United States, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, 100 percent.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, I think we're seeing some academics leaving U.S. universities on this basis.
--:-- Nicole Norea: But I also think it could be bad for them in some respects.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I mean, right now, voters really aren't happy with Trump's performance on the economy.
--:-- Nicole Norea: And we're seeing tourism numbers dropping from many of these countries.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So I think that could be a big factor here.
--:-- Nicole Norea: You know, is this going to kill tourism, international tourism to the U.S.?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I think that is maybe true.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I will say I live in Washington, D.C., as you know, and it is peak cherry blossom season right now.
--:-- Nicole Norea: And it does not appear to have killed peak cherry blossom tourism.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But who knows by this summer what we'll see, I guess.
--:-- Nicole Norea: Yeah, I know that the volume of flights being booked is down from certain countries, including Canada.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Canada is absolutely one of the worst.
--:-- Nicole Norea: We'll see if that trend holds.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But maybe for your sake, if it's really busy in D.C., it's a good thing.
--:-- Nicole Norea: No, I love the tourists. Bring it on.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Nicole Norea, Vox.com
--:-- Haimu Agdi: Haimu Agdi and Amanda Llewellyn made our show today.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Jolene Myers edited it.
--:-- Amanda Llewellyn: Laura Bullard fact-checked it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Andrea Christensdottir and Patrick Boyd mixed it.
--:-- Haimu Agdi: It's Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you.
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