--:-- Noelle King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noelle King.
--:-- Noelle King: Way back in the autumn of 2018, Tulsa, Oklahoma started trying to attract new residents by paying people $10,000 to move to the city. A local billionaire was worried about Tulsa losing population, and it was his money that was being spent.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Now, at the time, that might have seemed faintly ridiculous. $10,000 to upstakes, move to a new city where you'd have to find a new house and a new community, and convince your boss to let you work in Oklahoma.
--:-- Noelle King: And then came COVID. Americans had gone remote. 2,400 people have moved to Tulsa through this program, and today we are going to meet some.
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--:-- Noelle King: I had laundry. That was huge. I had laundry. The New Yorker who realized what she'd been missing, the longtime resident who watched rents go up as new people descended, and the Today Explained producer who applied for Tulsa Remote himself. That's all ahead.
--:-- Noelle King: Support for Today Explained comes from Adio. Adio is an AI-native customer relationship management platform that Adio says is built for the next era of companies.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: A powerful data structure adapts to your business model, syncs in all your contacts in minutes, and enriches your business with actionable data.
--:-- Noelle King: Adio says it also allows you to create those email sequences, those real-time reports, those powerful automations, which they claim can help you build what matters most. your company.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: You can go to adio.com slash today explained to get 15% off your first year.
--:-- Noelle King: That's A-T-T-I-O dot com slash today explained.
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--:-- Noelle King: You're listening to Today's Explained. It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Vox correspondent Ronnie Mola has spent a lot of time since the pandemic covering this enormous shift in the way we work remotely.
--:-- Noelle King: Ronnie, you and my colleague Hadi Moagdi recently went to Tulsa, Oklahoma to see what they're doing to recruit remote workers.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: They are paying people. And what else? Well, first off, there's that 10,000 headline number, you know, which is a big deal.
--:-- Noelle King: And I think it gets a lot of media play because of it.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: But what Hadi and I sort of learned from talking to so many people there was like, it's more than that.
--:-- Noelle King: Yeah, sure, the $10,000 was great, like as like a hook, as like to catch your attention.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: But I was making pretty good money. So like, that wasn't the decisive kind of point for me.
--:-- Noelle King: Like for these people, they're making, you know, on average more than $100,000 a year.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: While $10,000 is a big deal, it's not life or death. You know, it's sort of like, it helps sort of bump them over the edge.
--:-- Noelle King: I think the $10,000 was helpful to, in terms of the moving cost.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I think what's really attractive to them is this idea that they could go there and be part of a community.
--:-- Noelle King: I wanted to have more physical space. I was really intrigued with the idea of community because, again, I had moved to the Bay.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I hadn't had a lot of time to really build connection and community in that way.
--:-- Noelle King: So for me, I think it was a combination of acknowledging the fact that although I love D.C., it was not a sustainable place to be a single parent, for one, and just realizing, oh, I'm craving that community that all these people are talking about.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And I think the program does a really good job of integrating them with other people in Tulsa Remote, but also other people in the community so that they can feel like they're part of Tulsa, that they're doing community service, that they belong there, and in a way that might be more difficult in modern life and in maybe bigger cities.
--:-- Noelle King: They also kind of enable these interactions to happen with other people from Tulsa Remote and with the city at large, sort of get them set up.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And, you know, if you have any questions like, hey, how do I get involved in the city council or the school board? They'll help you out.
--:-- Noelle King: Okay, so the main draw is $10,000 if you move here.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Yeah, you have to come there. You have to have a remote job. You know, they check that you have a remote job.
--:-- Noelle King: They do a lot of background checks, that sort of thing.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And then you have to stay there at least a year.
--:-- Noelle King: And the sort of crazy thing is a lot of people are staying much longer than that.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So I actually bought my house sight unseen from D.C.
--:-- Noelle King: It was great, loved it, and at the point that we knew my husband was coming back, I decided to buy a second home, turn that one into a rental.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: One of the things that if people really understand and really take advantage of the program, it's so much more than $10,000.
--:-- Noelle King: For most people, $10,000 isn't going to change your life, but the access and the community that you get through being an active member of Tulsa remote absolutely can be life-changing.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I think 90% stay beyond their first year.
--:-- Noelle King: 76% of people have stayed since the program began, and that began in 2018.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So it's got an impressive retention rate.
--:-- Noelle King: So who's coming to Tulsa? Tell me about who you and Heidi met.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: It was actually a wider variety of people than I'd expected.
--:-- Noelle King: I met people in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: It was really all over the place.
--:-- Noelle King: I mean, generally, I would say what's similar about everyone I met was, you know, they're sort of ambitious.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: They have these remote jobs, but they also find that something like community is very important to them.
--:-- Noelle King: I think it's self-selecting in the sense that it's bringing people who already want community and want to put themselves out there and want to meet other people and want to be involved.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So, you know, they're a sort of industrious lot.
--:-- Noelle King: So I bought my first house with the 10 grand and I started flipping houses in Midtown.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Now I'm doing like, I got a 53 unit apartment complex and we're rolling that into a whole community redevelopment.
--:-- Noelle King: I talked to Elena Haskins. She's this 26-year-old UX designer. She moved from Brooklyn.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I was going to move to Argentina. I was going to get a car and live in a new city every month, or I was going to come here.
--:-- Noelle King: And I couldn't decide, and I thought, well, why don't we start with Tulsa because it's only a year.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And here we are more than a year later.
--:-- Noelle King: She said what really drew her to the place after, you know, she was accepted, she started talking to people on the Slack channels, was this allure of community, this idea that she could be a part of things that she could you know get involved that she could have this big friend group in a way that she seemed to have in Brooklyn because it felt so isolating
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So I did talk to a lot of people who were in the program before I came. They like oh this is so great. This is so great. I made all these friends. I have these new hobbies. I started a new business.
--:-- Noelle King: So hearing that just, that didn't leave my head.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So I kept thinking, you know, maybe that could happen to me.
--:-- Noelle King: There's something like 160 Slack channels for these Tulsa remoters, and it ranges in things from book clubs to biking to people with, you know, two to six-year-olds and six to ten-year-olds.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Like, anyone who is like, oh, I can't really make friends or I haven't found anybody I like, they're honestly not trying because we are bombarded with so many opportunities to find something that you like or someone.
--:-- Noelle King: She was a sort of adventurous person.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I think the next weekend she was going to go primitive camping is, I think, the term for it.
--:-- Noelle King: She wanted to sort of put herself out there, see what she could do.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: She ended up starting her own business.
--:-- Noelle King: She's got a lot of stuff that she wants to try.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And I think she saw a lot of other people there who were sort of like-minded.
--:-- Noelle King: When a person moves there, how are they introduced to the community? Is there like a mixer?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Welcome to our in-person orientation.
--:-- Noelle King: Yeah, there are something like 16 events each month.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Oh. And these are done by Tulsa Remote.
--:-- Noelle King: And some of them are for members only, you know, to get them used to each other, things like that.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: But a lot of them have the community there.
--:-- Noelle King: One of the events we went to while we were there was an orientation.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So who are the members? You are. Point to yourself.
--:-- Noelle King: Me. Right. So what do we...
--:-- Ronnie Mola: There was 50 new Tulsa remoters.
--:-- Noelle King: And they come there and they kind of learn the ropes.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: They learn about all the Slack channels.
--:-- Noelle King: They learn about the different things they have access to.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: But they also meet a bunch of people from the town.
--:-- Noelle King: We ran into someone named Timur Tebebu. He was a software engineer from New Orleans.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: He just moved to Tulsa two weeks earlier.
--:-- Noelle King: He's out on the rooftop.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And this guy comes up to him, and they start talking.
--:-- Noelle King: And this guy is part of SCORE, which is this business group that for free offers people business help.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: It shows you how to start a new business or do a side project.
--:-- Noelle King: And it turns out, Timur was like...
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So I definitely want to transition to working for myself as a software engineer and possibly as a photographer.
--:-- Noelle King: Don't know where to start, so definitely want to connect with you and talk about that.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And so this guy's like, oh, well, here, call me.
--:-- Noelle King: I'll tell you what to do.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: If you have ever any problems, you know, like it's free of charge.
--:-- Noelle King: Come ask me about it.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Whether they're accountants or attorneys or CPAs or engineers or whatever.
--:-- Noelle King: And so we got somebody who can help you with that.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Yeah, for sure.
--:-- Noelle King: And it's a great place to start.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And like I said, everything we do, we do for free.
--:-- Noelle King: So they set them up with people like community stakeholders like that.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: There were people there signing them up to vote, that sort of thing.
--:-- Noelle King: And then there's more community service stuff, you know, just volunteering, that sort of thing.
--:-- Noelle King: What does Tulsa have that makes it a cool place to live if you're a 20-something?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: You know, I'm a 30-something now, so like take this with a grain of salt, but it felt pretty cool to me.
--:-- Noelle King: Like there were really nice coffee shops.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: There were nice restaurants.
--:-- Noelle King: There were young people about it.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: It's a nice looking city.
--:-- Noelle King: We were driving around with Grant Bumgarner. He's a Tulsa native and he went away to college, came back.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And he was saying that a lot of stuff that I was looking at was... parking lot, a vacant building, or a warehouse space.
--:-- Noelle King: Everything you see is new and renovated or remodeled.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: One place we went to was the Gathering Place.
--:-- Noelle King: It's this giant park.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: It's so FOMO inducing.
--:-- Noelle King: It's a beautiful, beautiful sprawling park with natural plants and open meadows and these basketball courts lined with wildflowers.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Yeah, we've got sports courts, a skate park, like a BMX pump track and science and math museum, all sorts of stuff.
--:-- Noelle King: There's a lot of stuff that you could see like, okay, this is a nice place to be.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: It's a completely approachable and sort of fun city, but it felt cool, but not too cool.
--:-- Noelle King: Oklahoma is a conservative state, yeah?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Yeah, and this is something I asked a lot of people in the Tulsa Remote Program about because, you know, recently the state of Oklahoma has enacted all these really regressive laws.
--:-- Noelle King: Oklahoma put into effect the strictest abortion ban in this country right this moment.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: We want Oklahoma to be the most pro-life state in the country. We want to outlaw abortion.
--:-- Noelle King: There is no gender-affirming care for young people.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: We are simply delaying the day at which someone might choose to access gender-affirming care to a time when they might be more mature.
--:-- Noelle King: And so I asked these people who are moving from a lot of liberal places and a lot of liberal people in general, like, you know, how does it feel?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Like, is that OK to you?
--:-- Noelle King: And, you know, the response I got was, yeah, that's concerning.
--:-- Noelle King: So I am reminded when I'm out of my bubble and I had to get some medical things taken care of.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And so that's when I'm reminded of that.
--:-- Noelle King: So when I want to have those conversations, I have to I'm reminded of where I am.
--:-- Noelle King: I talked to a woman named Montana Kane. She's a black woman who moved from South Carolina.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And, you know, she loves it in Tulsa.
--:-- Noelle King: She's found her partner there.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: She started a business.
--:-- Noelle King: She's got this really big social network of people, of other people like her.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: You know, she said it's sort of a bit of a bubble she's created.
--:-- Noelle King: But like, at the same time, she says when she's traveling to Oklahoma City, she doesn't want to stop at small gas stations, you know, for fear of racism or any, you know, sort of violence or something like that.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I'm not stopping at Mama's gas station.
--:-- Noelle King: You better go find a QT.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I am always on the defense.
--:-- Noelle King: So I am very clear that when I drive anywhere outside of Tulsa, I do not drive at night.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: She also says when she's looking for maternal care, she doesn't want to maybe go to a hospital that has a religious affiliation in case something were to happen.
--:-- Noelle King: So she said, as a businesswoman, as someone just like a single person starting out here, it's great.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: But when I start thinking about the future, it's a little more uncertain for me.
--:-- Noelle King: I've never been stopped by the police. I don't want to, don't ever plan to, you know.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: But that's something that I fear.
--:-- Noelle King: My partner drives late at night.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I am scared for him.
--:-- Noelle King: So it's in those instances where I'm like, okay, fantasy over, back to reality.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I'm putting myself in the shoes of someone who is from Tulsa, maybe whose family goes back generations.
--:-- Noelle King: And I'm thinking about this newcomer who says, I don't want to go to a small gas station.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I'm worried about going to a hospital in a city like this.
--:-- Noelle King: Right. And I feel some kind of way about that, right?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I feel some kind of way hearing that because she the new one and I been here
--:-- Noelle King: It funny you asked Hattie and I actually went knocking on doors trying to get people to be like, what's the real deal with Tulsa Remote?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: How do you feel about this?
--:-- Noelle King: And largely, people were pretty open to it.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I didn't get any horrible criticism about it.
--:-- Noelle King: It seems like a really cool program.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I have a few friends in it.
--:-- Noelle King: I have a lot of yoga students that came through Tulsa Remote.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And any time they showed up in class, they all seem to like Tulsa and want to stick around.
--:-- Noelle King: We talked to a man named David Bestery. He's a mental health technician.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: He's been there for 40 years.
--:-- Noelle King: He said, you know, most of his interactions with people in Tulsa Remote have been pretty good.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Everyone I've met over the years, even some of my neighbors, have been really cool that moved here because of that.
--:-- Noelle King: I think it's been more than likely a positive thing for the future of Tulsa.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I don't know if everyone feels that way.
--:-- Noelle King: I feel like some people get upset with raising rents and such.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: He said maybe it would be better if they spent more money on the people who were here rather than bringing people in.
--:-- Noelle King: There's always been a brain drain here, and a lot of that can be attributed to probably the politics.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: The more educated people get, they want to leave a lot of times, and that sucks.
--:-- Noelle King: And so just offering a little bit of an incentive to people who got their educations and grew up elsewhere to come here seems okay.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I don't have a problem with that, but it also seems pretty short-sighted when there's also people who live here.
--:-- Noelle King: Coming up after the break, you heard some of the Tulsa remoters say that 10 grand is not a ton of money, but you add that up over 2,400 people, and it sort of is.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So where's all that money coming from and our longtime residents of the city being left out?
--:-- Noelle King: Support for today's show comes from Adio.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: What is Adio?
--:-- Noelle King: Adio is an AI-native customer relationship management system built specifically for the next era of companies.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: They say it's extremely powerful, adapts to your unique data structures and scales with any business model.
--:-- Noelle King: According to Adio, Adio takes less than a minute to set up, and within seconds you will have your email and calendars synced.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: You'll see all your relationships in a fully-fledged platform, they say, all enriched with that actionable data.
--:-- Noelle King: And they say you can build AI-powered automations and use its research agent to tackle some of your most complex processes to seize so that you can focus on what matters, building your company.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: You can join industry leaders such as Flatfile, Replicate, Modal, and so much more.
--:-- Noelle King: You can go to adio.com slash todayexplained to get 15% off your first year.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: That's A-T-T-I-O dot com slash todayexplained.
--:-- Noelle King: We'll see you next time.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Read, watch, and listen to The Guardian for free at theguardian.com.
--:-- Noelle King: It's Today Explained.
--:-- [Music transitions]
--:-- Noelle King: We're back with Vox correspondent Ronnie Mola, who, when last we spoke, was knocking doors in Tulsa to see what native Tulsans think about this remote work scheme.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And Ronnie, some of them told you they're upset about rents going up.
--:-- Noelle King: It was less about the newbies and more about, like, what about us?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: There is something about it that discredits the people that are already here and maybe, like, the artists and entrepreneurs that are from here and live here, and they could use that money.
--:-- Noelle King: We talked to a woman who's a chef, and, you know, she has her own entrepreneurial dreams, but she hadn't heard about these programs that are there to help entrepreneurs in Tulsa.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I mean, it's kind of, I'm at a loss at how I hadn't heard about that naturally, because I'm in with a lot of the things in the culture here.
--:-- Noelle King: Yeah, you feel part of the community, but you don't know about that.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Very much a part of the community. I had no idea.
--:-- Noelle King: And she was sort of upset, like, hey, how come I haven't heard about that?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And the thing is, you know, the people who live in Tulsa don't have an orientation event.
--:-- Noelle King: Right. To like the amenities that are there for them in their city that are there, you know, because the city itself and also because of this billionaire funding all of these different programs.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: But I think it might be in some ways a marketing thing, like how do you get the people there to know what's available to them so that they're not feeling like, hey, you're just paying people $10,000 to come in here and, you know, complain.
--:-- Noelle King: Okay, so people in Tulsa are saying, why don't you spend some money on us?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: It seems like a fair point of view.
--:-- Noelle King: 2,400 people times $10,000 is $24 million just on grants to get people to move to Tulsa.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And then there's obviously other money involved here, you know, these mixers and et cetera, et cetera.
--:-- Noelle King: Where is all the money coming from?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So the Tulsa Remote Program is funded by the George Kaiser Family Foundation.
--:-- Noelle King: George Kaiser is a local billionaire who has pledged to give away more than half of his wealth.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: A lot of it's going towards young Tulsans. He does stuff for early education.
--:-- Noelle King: There's a lot of these accelerator programs that teach Tulsans how to code, that sort of thing.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And he's also investing in Tulsa Remote.
--:-- Noelle King: So that's where a lot of money for these programs and programs like it and just public works in general in Tulsa is coming from.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: My motivation for philanthropy was largely guilt because I realized that I gained advantages by being born in an advanced society with loving parents.
--:-- Noelle King: OK, so George Kaiser is a local guy.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: At the same time that he's asking or enticing new people, incentivizing new people to come in, is he doing anything to keep locals from moving out?
--:-- Noelle King: Yeah, there were a bunch of programs that I heard about.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: One was this cyber skills center and it helps local Tulsans get coding degrees.
--:-- Noelle King: You know, I think it in cybersecurity data science that sort of thing.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So before I went to school at Holberton for Fullstack I was doing hair and have been for seven years.
--:-- Noelle King: And the reason I decided to change is when the pandemic happened, I was not able to work for six months.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So because of that, I have a daughter to take care of.
--:-- Noelle King: And And what can I do from home? If there's another pandemic, what can I do that I can still provide for me and my daughter?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And it was this.
--:-- Noelle King: These are people who are taking advantage of these programs.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: They're subsidized, again, by George Kaiser.
--:-- Noelle King: Oh, yeah, Daddy Kaiser is all in that.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: He gives us our monthly allowance when we're good.
--:-- Noelle King: And they get, like, a monthly stipend so that they can afford to go to the school.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I guess get accepted into Holberton, and then you have to make less than $60,000 a year in order to qualify for up to $1,500 a month in stipend.
--:-- Noelle King: I think they have to pay back some of it once they make a certain amount of money, but until they get a job in their career, it's free.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: They're using these programs in order to get jobs a lot like the people in Tulsa Remote have.
--:-- Noelle King: They want these knowledge work jobs at computers where they get paid a lot of money, and if there's another pandemic that happens, they can work from home, and that doesn't mean that they're going to lose their income.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: There's also things like Build in Tulsa, which helps black entrepreneurs.
--:-- Noelle King: There's a lot of programs like that.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: But, you know, obviously you have to hear that they exist.
--:-- Noelle King: I mean, you're from here. You go to college here. You said you're an entrepreneur.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: That's how you introduced yourself.
--:-- Noelle King: Like, do you think there should be more programs to maybe try to help you build and stay here?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Yeah, I do know there is one that's already doing that here in Tulsa.
--:-- Noelle King: It's called Sky's the Limit.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So if you're a small business owner and you're looking to get some funding, I got funded from them.
--:-- Noelle King: It wasn't $10,000, but they do have several opportunities for you to get funded.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: So that's just for small businesses.
--:-- Noelle King: Ronnie, we're at a point now where more and more people are being asked to come back into the office by their employers.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And more and more people are just deciding they want to go back into the office. They don't like remote work as much as they thought they would.
--:-- Noelle King: Three years in, what do you think happens in Tulsa?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Do you think this 2400 is sort of peak move to Tulsa or do you think this keeps going?
--:-- Noelle King: No, I think it keeps going because, you know, obviously there's a call back to the office, but like I don't want to overstate the call back to the office.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Like still 20% of people who can work from home full time do.
--:-- Noelle King: And that's many multiples higher than it was before the pandemic.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Even if this isn't everybody, this is a big chunk of the population that is now sort of footloose and able to be like, hey, maybe I could live in a cheaper city.
--:-- Noelle King: I asked Tulsa Remote, you know, what's happened to applications?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: And they said, you know, as soon as the pandemic hit, it's gone up and it has not gone down.
--:-- Noelle King: Some of the people who've moved there for Tulsa Remote, you know, maybe their jobs have called them back.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: They've gotten different jobs or started their own business.
--:-- Noelle King: So Tulsa Remote doesn't see it as an issue.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I mean, you've talked about some upsides, some downsides, some resentments here, but it does appear to be working.
--:-- Noelle King: Do you think other cities that are struggling to either retain or to attract population might start doing things like this?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: A lot of other cities have.
--:-- Noelle King: I think there's maybe something like 70, definitely dozens of cities across America, you know, from Muncie, Indiana to Bentonville, Arkansas, are starting programs like this because it makes a lot of sense.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: You offer a headline incentive and then you get it back many fold over because these people come in with their big incomes and buy houses and spend money and live there for a long time, ideally.
--:-- Noelle King: Ronnie, let me ask you, Leslie, would you move to Tulsa?
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I was talking about this a lot with Hadi during our trip.
--:-- Noelle King: I was like, you know, I could totally see it.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: It's livable.
--:-- Noelle King: I sent my sister a link on Zillow.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: You know, when I got there, I found this beautiful mid-century modern sprawling house on a wooded lot in Tulsa.
--:-- Noelle King: And it was, you know, way cheaper than you could buy it anywhere else.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I mean, it was still expensive, but it was like, it was, I think maybe like $300,000 or $400,000, but it was for a five bedroom, three bath house.
--:-- Noelle King: And it was just pristine.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: You know, it was, it was out of control, but obviously like people there are probably like, yeah, that's a lot of money because of the average home price in Tulsa is, you know, $190,000.
--:-- Noelle King: But when you hear that from anywhere else, you're like, wow, that's, that's a lot.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I mean, I don't know if I personally would do it.
--:-- Noelle King: Just, I've got my own good thing, upstate New York.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: I'm in my own middle of the woods place, but I could definitely see the draw, especially if I were a little bit more footloose.
--:-- Noelle King: If I was looking for something new, I could definitely see that being a place to start.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: It was attractive in a lot of ways to me.
--:-- Noelle King: Today's episode was produced by Hadi Mawajdeh, who told me that he, in fact, applied to be part of Tulsa Remote.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Yeah, Noelle, I did apply.
--:-- Noelle King: And after visiting Tulsa, I would totally live there.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: If only we could get Vox to allow their employees to live in Oklahoma.
--:-- Noelle King: It was edited by Matthew Collette.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Laura Bullard is our fact checker, and Michael Raphael is our engineer.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Thank you.
--:-- Noelle King: As marketing channels have multiplied, the demand for content has skyrocketed.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: But everyone can make content that's on brand and stands out with Adobe Express.
--:-- Noelle King: You don't have to be a designer to generate images, rewrite text, and create effects.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: That's the beauty of generative AI that's commercially safe.
--:-- Noelle King: Teams all across your business will be psyched to collaborate and create amazing presentations, videos, social posts, flyers, and more.
--:-- Ronnie Mola: Meet Adobe Express, the quick and easy app to create on-brand content.
--:-- Noelle King: Learn more at adobe.com slash express slash business.
