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--:-- Noel King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noel King.
--:-- Noel King: On their way out the door for summer break last Friday, the nine justices of the Supreme Court handed down several rulings that days later still have people asking what, why, and how will that work?
--:-- Noel King: The court did not strike down birthright citizenship, though it did give President Trump more power. It's been an amazing period of time this last hour.
--:-- Noel King: By limiting courts from slapping nationwide injunctions on the president's executive orders.
--:-- Noel King: The court also ruled that parents can opt kids out of a class if they're reading books with LGBTQ characters.
--:-- Noel King: We talked to a concerned Muslim parent two summers ago through that book, there is a discussion about the use of pronouns.
--:-- Noel King: They introduced transgender, non-binary, in our opinion, not age appropriate for our six-year-old.
--:-- Noel King: And they issued a ruling on porn that is also a ruling on free speech that could have implications for you if you catch my drift.
--:-- Noel King: That's coming up on Today Explained.
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--:-- Noel King: You're listening to Today Explained.
--:-- Noel King: I am Mark Joseph Stern, and I am a legal writer for Slate covering courts and the law.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: The Supreme Court just wrapped up their term. They're going on vacation. You and I are still here.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: There were a lot of big decisions at the end, as there often are.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: We wanted to talk to you about one, and that decision, that case, was about porn.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Tell us about it.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: So this is a case called Free Speech Coalition v. Paxton that was a challenge to a Texas law that restricts access to sexually explicit speech online, specifically internet porn.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Under the law, individuals can only access pornography if they prove that they're over 18 through age verification.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And those who run websites that contain pornography are responsible for ensuring that people under 18 don't get to see their materials.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: If they fail to perform that task, then they're subject to pretty massive, if not ruinous fines.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And these are laws that have sprung up in many, many states over the last few years as more legislators and parents have grown concerned about the ubiquity of porn on the Internet.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Pornography inflicts its poison on marriages, on families, and on communities.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And worst of all, it steals innocence from our children and endangers them.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Parents are in a competition with big tech companies, and whoever wins that competition is going to determine what kinds of people are formed and therefore what kind of nation we become.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Children are frequently exposed to pornography.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: So pornography has literally been invading our homes and our children's lives through the internet.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: How do you prove you're 18 or over?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: So you have to submit your ID through a third-party platform that the pornography website will link you to.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And there are some pretty serious data privacy concerns about this protocol.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: These platforms are not entirely secure.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Some of the plaintiffs here argue that adults who have a right to access this stuff will not do so because they're afraid that the data will leak and that people will know that they were using their IDs to watch porn.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: All right. So let's talk about the players.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Free Speech Coalition versus Paxton. Who's who?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: So Free Speech Coalition is a trade group that essentially represents the pornography industry.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: They have been super active in defending the rights of pornographers and adults who enjoy pornography to continue making and watching that content and to try to tackle and overturn restrictions on porn.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: They've been the plaintiff in a bunch of pretty important cases setting the rules of the road for online porn.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And Paxton is the attorney general of Texas, and he is the one who would be enforcing this law against porn websites.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: You look anywhere in the developed world or anywhere, children are protected.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: It's my job to enforce Texas law.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: In this case, I feel very comfortable protecting our children from having this put in front of them.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: So it's a pretty clear dispute.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: There are those who think that, you know, it should be pretty easy to watch porn online and those who think that it should be fairly difficult.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And they had a big fight over the First Amendment.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: I love that the Porn Trade Association called itself the Free Speech Coalition.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: So it is very funny.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: It's something that surprises people a lot.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: You know, I think they wanted a kind of anodyne name.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: They didn't want to be like Pornographers Associated or something.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: You know, they didn't want to be sort of tarred with the stigma of online porn.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And I guess I will just say, like, you know, the speech in this case is considered sort of low value.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: You know, not many people want to stand up and defend internet pornography.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: But the implications of these cases and these decisions sweep well beyond internet porn.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And so I think the Free Speech Coalition has, like, a legitimate claim to that name.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: They are not just defending pornography.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: They're defending other kinds of speech that wind up receiving protections when porn is protected as well.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Low value speech is such a good way of putting it when the coalition makes their argument do they say hey guys this could affect, I'm sure they don't call it high value speech but this could affect the kind of speech that uh is not porn like what how do they how do they draw that argument down to something that might bug me a person who not seeking porn every single time.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Free speech coalition brings a case like this they argue that they representing more than just the interests of porn websites.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Oh, yay. Oh, yay. Oh, yay.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Mr. Schaefer. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the court.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: To abandon strict scrutiny here, Your Honors, could open the door to an emerging wave of regulations that imperil free speech online.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And I think they're right.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: In some other cases in other states challenging similar laws, they have brought in individuals who create erotic literature, literotica as it's known, individuals who publish salacious stories, or even booksellers who publish e-books with, you know, sexually explicit material, romance novels, right?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: All of that stuff could potentially get swept up in laws designed to restrict internet pornography.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And so Free Speech Coalition does work to expand beyond just the pornographers to say, look, you know, there is material on Netflix that is sexually explicit.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: There's material on HBO Max.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: There's material in the book Ulysses, famously, that's sexually explicit.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Like, we are on the front lines of this because we're usually the first to be targeted, but we are trying to create an umbrella to protect everybody's speech.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: All right. So the justices are considering all of this.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: What did the court decide?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: So the court decided something that is a little surprising and not what most of us thought would happen.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Can I just get into the weeds a little bit?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: By all means.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: So in the past, the Supreme Court has applied strict scrutiny to laws that restrict adults' access to sexual speech.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: That means that the court requires really careful examination of how much speech the law is censoring.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: It requires the government to very carefully and narrowly tailor the law to ensure that it's not burdening too much protected speech.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: But in another case, the Supreme Court held that strict scrutiny doesn't apply when kids are involved, that children don't have access to see sexually explicit material.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And so states have a much broader hand in cutting off kids from porn.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And in those cases, the court has just applied what we call rational basis review, which is very lenient.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: So the question in this case was seemingly whether the court would apply strict scrutiny to this law and likely strike it down or apply rational basis review to uphold it?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And the answer was neither.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: What?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Which is really surprising.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And so what the court did instead was take a kind of middle ground and it's applied something called intermediate scrutiny, which is in between rational basis review and strict scrutiny, as you might guess.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And it asks also whether the government is furthering an important interest, but it doesn't require that level of narrow tailoring where the government has to be super duper careful in making sure that it's not restricting more speech than necessary.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: The test gives the government a lot more leeway to restrict speech as long as it's not sweeping in a huge amount of protected speech.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And so here the Supreme Court and opinion by Justice Clarence Thomas said, we think that this is the appropriate standard because all that Texas is doing here is preventing minors from seeing speech that they're not allowed to see, that they have no constitutional right to see.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And it might have some burden for adults, but that burden isn't very high.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: So we're not going to treat this like censorship.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: We're not going to treat this like a targeted effort to censor protected speech.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: We're going to treat this more like a kind of reasonable effort to protect children.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And if that creates some pains and burdens for adults, we think that's still OK.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Okay, so I have the right to watch my steamy romance on Netflix, but a 15-year-old doesn't have the right to go on Pornhub.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: It sounds very rational.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: It was a 6-3 decision.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: The justices who dissented, what were they arguing?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Yeah, so Justice Elena Kagan dissented and she was joined by Justice Sotomayor and Justice Jackson.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: So these are basically the three liberals, right?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And they argue, I think correctly, that the Supreme Court rewrote its precedence.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: I just don't think it's true, as the court says in this case, that it's okay to apply a relaxed form of scrutiny under those other cases as long as the government says it's trying to protect children.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: The government always says it's trying to protect children, right?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Like, this has always been the justification for restricting sexually explicit material.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And yet, in those previous cases, in the 90s, in the aughts, the Supreme Court still applied really strict scrutiny.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And so here, I think the dissenters are a little confused, and they basically say, we think the majority is confused too, about what standards should apply.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And Justice Kagan says it should be strict scrutiny and maybe this law would survive strict scrutiny, but that should be the approach that we take because the reality is that this is burdening adults' access to protected expression.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And anytime that burden is happening, we need to be applying strict scrutiny so we can make sure that it comports with the First Amendment.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: The Supreme Court, as I understand it, has a long history of being reluctant to limit speech.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Does this ruling surprise you?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Does this ruling suggest we're someplace new?
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Yeah, I would say that this ruling shows that the Supreme Court is maybe a little less concerned about protecting sexually explicit speech.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Maybe it's relaxing its standards for, you know, laws that try to prevent children from seeing sexually explicit material, but wind up having the effect of censoring that material for adults as well.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Justice Thomas talks a lot about history, in his opinion.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: History, tradition, and precedent recognize that states have two distinct powers to address obscenity.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: They may prescribe outright speech that is obscene to the public at large, and they may prevent children from accessing speech that is obscene to children.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: By the 18th century, English common law...
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: He talks about how there's a long tradition of protecting children from sexually explicit speech.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And I think what he's trying to signal is that maybe, you know, the court went a little too far in protecting porn in the past and that the court needs to pull back and give the people through their representatives, the democratic process, more latitude, especially as technology changes.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And it becomes so much easier to access this material, you know.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: And I think the court's saying with that change and in light of history, we think that's OK.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Thank you, Mark.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Yeah, of course.
--:-- Mark Joseph Stern: Anytime.
--:-- Noel King: Ian Millhiser is here, Ian's Vox's Supreme Court correspondent.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: He's written two books about the Supremes, and he wrote for Vox the hilarious implications of the Supreme Court's porn decision.
--:-- Noel King: The case that the Supreme Court ruled on last week was a very modern one.
--:-- Noel King: It comes down to children being able to access pornography on Al Gore's Internet.
--:-- Noel King: But this is not the first time in history, I gather, that the Supreme Court has taken on the issue of porn.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: It's not, although it is the first time in a really long time that they have done so.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So a simply enormous amount of First Amendment law developed out of pornographic or otherwise sexual speech.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And that's not surprising because, like, the whole point of the First Amendment is to prevent the government from banning speech that someone hates.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: You know, uncontroversial speech, speech that no one has any problem with it, that never gets banned in the first place.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So those don't become First Amendment cases.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: It's always speech that someone wants to censor that forms the basis of First Amendment cases.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: All right. Where does all of this begin?
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Let me give you, I guess, a hundred year history of this, of the First Amendment.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Sure.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: For most of American history, free speech didn't exist in the United States.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: We had a First Amendment, but it was basically meaningless.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And this isn't just true about sexual speech.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: This is true, you know, in World War I, it was a crime to fly the German flag.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Eugene Jebs, who was kind of a perennial presidential candidate, the Supreme Court upheld a 10-year jail sentence against him because he gave a speech in which he protested the draft and he protested the government's practice of censoring people who criticized the draft.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So like that's where our First Amendment law was a little more than 100 years ago.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: This was also the era of what is called the Comstock Act.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: The Comstock Act, it's technically still in the books, although it's never enforced anymore, made it illegal to send what is called obscene or indecent materials through the mail.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And the upshot of that was that literature, erotic literature was banned.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Fine works of nude art were often the subject of prosecutions, including works that we now consider to be masterpieces.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: That was just how things were for most of American history.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And it wasn't really until the 1950s that the Supreme Court said, we're going to start protecting sexualized speech.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: We're going to start saying that you can't throw someone in jail just because they sell a novel with some naughty bits in it.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: The precedent that is in effect right now is the Miller test.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Miller comes from Miller v. California from 1973.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: It had this rule where you have to ask whether the material has any serious artistic, scientific, political, literary, or other sorts of value.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And if it has that sort of value, then it's allowed.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Then the First Amendment protects it.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: There are two things I say about that rule.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: One is that it's a pretty protective rule.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: It's a very First Amendment-friendly rule.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: But the other thing is like if you're asking whether something has very serious artistic value, that's a really subjective test.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Like, you know, every person's definition of what has serious artistic value is going to be different.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And so it forced the justices into some pretty humiliating conditions because suddenly they had to evaluate on an individual basis.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Does this porno movie have serious artistic value?
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Oh, no.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: The justices of the 1970s used to have movie day.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Whenever there was a case involving a pornographic movie that reached the Supreme Court, you know, when you're a judge, you got to look at the evidence.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So the justices would meet in the basement of the Supreme Court to watch the porno.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: This was obviously a very humiliating experience.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Justice Harlan at the time was nearly blind.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And so he actually had to have a law clerk sit next to him and describe what was exactly.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: It was such a humiliating experience for the justices.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: This was the era where Justice Potter Stewart came up with his infamous I know it when I see it line.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: You know, I don't know what hardcore pornography is, but I know it when I see it.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And so the justices were being forced into the basement to decide whether they see it in each of these individual films.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: On top of it, these cases were producing all kinds of absurdities in the kind of art that was being produced.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So there was one film that came up in front of the Supreme Court.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And the plot of this thing was literally there's a woman.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: She likes sex.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: She has a lot of sex.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And then she gets on an airplane and the airplane is hijacked.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: We could stop in Sacramento, couldn't we?
--:-- Ian Millhiser: We're violating international law.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And I suggest you violate it.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Huh?
--:-- Ian Millhiser: If I am correct, with six stops for refueling, we shall be in Havana in approximately 30 hours.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And the hijacker launches into this lecture on the relative virtues of communist and capitalist societies.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: The communist countries have far less money than America, but the people work together as equals.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Now, why did that happen?
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Well, one reason is because it meant the film was protected by the First Amendment.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: OK, OK.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So in Miller, in Miller, they decide that most porn is protected under the First Amendment.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Yeah, that was the practical effect of it.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: I mean, there's still something.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: The one category that we do still regulate, and I'm glad that we do it, is child porn.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So child pornography.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And then there's some other thing.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: I mean, if it's non-consensual, that can still be prosecuted as rape.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So it's not like there isn't any regulation in this space, but there has been very little regulation.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And I think that's a combination of three things.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: One is the Miller test.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: The Miller test is just a very First Amendment-protective test.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: The second is the experience of the justices in the basement.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: I mean, once you decide that some sexual speech is protected, judges are going to have to look at the evidence and decide whether this piece of sexual art is protected.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And so it is inevitable, unless you have a very libertarian rule, that you're going to have justices in the basement watching pornos.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And then the third reason why I think things took a more libertarian turn is just technology advance.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So this Texas case that was just decided is about age-gating software.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: In some states, if you look at a porn website, the website has to verify your age.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And I will tell you solely for professional reasons that, of course, have nothing to do with my personal purian interests.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: I live in Virginia, which is one of the states that is a Texas-style law.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Pornhub has pulled out of those states because they think it's too difficult to comply with the law.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So I went to my computer in Virginia and I typed in Pornhub dot com and I would not be able to see nudie videos in the state of Virginia.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And then I spent two minutes installing a VPN.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And after two minutes of work, I was able to watch porn in Virginia again.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: It is child's play to get around these laws.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So, you know, the fact that technology has evolved to a point that makes it very difficult for regulators to regulate, I think, is also a factor here.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Yeah, when the justices handed down this decision on Friday, as we heard in the first half of the show, there really did seem to be an effort to protect minors or to suggest that maybe we've been a little bit too lax.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: We've leaned too hard on the First Amendment without realizing, like, what is actually going on online.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So how does the decision on Friday complicate free speech protections more broadly or does it even?
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So the short answer to that is that it remains to be seen.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: So it is definitely the case that the justice felt like, you know, they pulled back too far and it led to children having too much access to too many things.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: You know, Justice Barrett had this great riff at the oral argument where she talked about how, like, there's now so many devices in her home that, like, she's worried about her kids watching porn through the refrigerator.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: I mean, kids can get online porn through gaming systems, tablets, phones, computers.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: Let me just say that content filtering for all those different devices, I can say from personal experience, is difficult to keep up with.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: There's this real sense that the government needed to step in.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: I do worry, though, just that, you know, I think that the libertarian era in the First Amendment, because, again, we're not just talking about sexual speech here.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: We're talking about political speech.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: We're talking about all kinds of speech the government wanted to ban.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: We just emerged from a long period where the Supreme Court said, government, stay out of that.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: We don't want the government regulating speech.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And broadly speaking, I think that's a very good idea.
--:-- Ian Millhiser: And I hope that the Supreme Court doesn't roll back on that too much.
--:-- Noel King: Ian Millhiser, Vox, Supreme Court, Wild Ride.
--:-- Noel King: Gabrielle Berbey and Miles Bryan produced today's show.
--:-- Noel King: Jolie Myers edited.
--:-- Noel King: Patrick Boyd and Andrea Kristinsdottir engineered.
--:-- Noel King: Laura Bullard and Devin Schwartz fact-checked the show.
--:-- Noel King: I'm Noelle King.
--:-- Noel King: It's Today Explained.
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