--:-- Noel King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noel King.
--:-- Noel King: Palestinians are trapped in Rafah, Gaza's southernmost city, where about 1.5 million people have sought refuge. After bombings this weekend, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is threatening a ground invasion. We're joined by Palestinian journalist Aseel Mousa, who's been reporting from Rafah. Aseel, thanks for being here.
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Noel King: Can you tell us what it's like in Rafah right now?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Rafah is a city that's been completely destroyed. It had a population of about 200,000 people, but after Israel declared war on Hamas after the attacks of October 7th, more than a million Palestinians fled south to Rafah. They have nothing. They exist between the sky and the land.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really vivid description. Can you tell us more about what you've seen?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Despite criticism, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu plans a ground invasion of Rafah. I think the people who are telling you, oh, you can't do it, you can't go into Rafah under any conditions, or basically saying, don't win, lose. Facing all of this, some people taking refuge there have just stopped wondering what comes next.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the humanitarian situation?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: If the people thought of what will happen after a ceasefire or after the end of this war, they will die. They will die. They will die. Coming up on Today Explained, can four months of frantic diplomacy lead to a ceasefire before Rafah's destruction?
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--:-- [Music transitions back to the show]
--:-- Noel King: We're back. Aseel Mousa is a Palestinian freelance journalist from the Gaza Strip. She works for The Guardian, The Intercept, Middle East Eye, Al Jazeera, and Electronic Intifada. Aseel, thanks for being here.
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Noel King: Can you tell us more about your own experience as a journalist in Gaza?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: I have been working as a journalist for two and a half years. Now I am in the city of Rafah in the southern part of the Gaza Strip. This is my second displacement. Actually, on the 13th of October, the Israeli authorities ordered the residents of the Gaza Strip to evacuate the northern Gaza Strip and to relocate to the south.
--:-- Noel King: That must have been incredibly difficult for you and your family.
--:-- Aseel Mousa: So consequently, my family and I sought refuge in Al-Maghazi refugee camp where we stayed at my grandfather's house along with approximately 40 other displaced individuals. The situation there was dire. We faced severe shortages of food, running water, and even drinkable water.
--:-- Noel King: That's horrific. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: I met family who are displaced for three times. They are staying in a tent, in a very small tent. They actually have nothing to eat. They have even the simplest essentials. They don't have them in the tent.
--:-- Noel King: That's heartbreaking. Can you tell us more about what you've heard from people in Rafah about their expectations for the future?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: We don't have plan F. We made plan A, plan B, plan C. And we have no more plans. Asil Moussa, she's a twice-displaced Palestinian journalist in Rafah, where backup plans have been rendered useless and people only focus on survival.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've heard from people in Rafah about their expectations for the future?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: We don't have the luxury to think of the aftermath. We only think how to survive day by day. We think of how to flee from being killed.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really vivid description. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: I was in an interview with two sisters who are married to two brothers. They were in Khan Yunis. They were in a building with their husbands and children. And they are civilians. They are civilians.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've heard from people in Rafah about their expectations for the future?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: They left their husbands in the streets. The body of their husbands they are killed. And we run with our children. And we walked for a long time to reach a safer area.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really vivid description. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Sahar told me, Asil, I didn't have the chance to even hug him or to kiss his head or even to protect his body or to bury him.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really heartbreaking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've heard from people in Rafah about their expectations for the future?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Actually, this was the hardest thing I hear today.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: In a different interview, I met family who are displaced for three times. They are staying in a tent, in a very small tent. They actually have nothing to eat. They have even the simplest essentials. They don't have them in the tent.
--:-- Noel King: That's heartbreaking. Can you tell us more about what you've heard from people in Rafah about their expectations for the future?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: They told me that I see that Monday night was terrifying. This situation was indescribable. We were very afraid. We decided to leave Rafah and to relocate once again. But we don't know where to go.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Asil, much of the international community is really angry about what's happening in Rafah. There is an understanding that people have been pushed into Rafah and have no place else to go.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: And so why would Israel conduct a bombardment of this place that essentially feels like a last stand for civilians?
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Now, when Israel is asked about that, Israeli leaders say, Rafah is the last Hamas stronghold. This is now where Hamas is hiding, is located.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Does that strike you as a correct assessment?
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Yeah, I'm laughing. They are killing the children, women. They are targeting hospitals. They are targeting schools. They are killing journalists. The correspondent of Al-Jazeera, Wa'ad al-Dahduh. They killed his wife, his daughters, his sons.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: And I'm just laughing. They are like saying they are looking for Hamas. The hospitals are not Hamas. The killing of approximately 30,000 people, the majority of them are women and children. Where is Hamas? Where is Hamas between the civilians?
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: And they ordered the residents to relocate to Rafah. Now we are over 1.3 million Palestinians in Rafah.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: But let me tell you something. Israel is killing people without getting any accountable. They see that the whole world fails Palestinians in Gaza. They left Palestinian in Gaza to be killed, to be wounded, to be targeted, to be bombed.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: They are not looking for Hamas. They are trying to kill the whole Gazans.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: This is what I can see. And in the northern parts of the Gaza Strip, there is a real starvation.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: My friend just asked me, Isil, if you can help me to get any wheat flour. We don't have food.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: I asked him to go to my bombed house and look for any kind of food if he can't find it under the rubble.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: People are now looking for food from under the rubble. They are eating the food of the animals.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: And we are talking about Hamas. No, Israel is not targeting Hamas. It's targeting the Palestinian people.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: So what Israel is conducting is an aerial bombardment, but Israeli troops have not entered into Rafah.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Are people in Rafah expecting a ground invasion?
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Yes, we are expecting a ground invasion.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Yes, we are. And if the prospect of a ground invasion into Rafah happened, it would be a catastrophe, as 1.3 million people are already displaced in Rafah.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: So the people now have no place to go to.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: And is there any way to prepare for this? What can we do? What can we do? What can we do?
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: We stay. We stay in the houses, in the tents, the streets, in the shelters, waiting to be killed.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: We don't have plan F. We made plan A, plan B, plan C. And we have no more plans.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Asil Moussa, she's a twice-displaced Palestinian journalist in Rafah, where backup plans have been rendered useless and people only focus on survival.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: We don't have the luxury to think of the aftermath. We only think how to survive day by day. We think of how to flee from being killed.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Now, there is a method by which the world deals with such catastrophes, and that method is diplomacy.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what you've seen in terms of the impact on civilians?
--:-- Aseel Mousa: Like a SEAL, we wondered where diplomatic efforts stand, and we have answers coming up.
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--:-- [Music transitions back to the show]
--:-- Noel King: We're back. Anton LaGuardia is the diplomatic editor of The Economist. Anton, thanks for being here.
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Noel King: Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Well, it's been intense. There's a lot of flying. There's a lot of time spent in planes and convoys and marbled palaces.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Anthony Blinken has been to the region five times so far since October the 7th.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: I'm back first and foremost to consult directly with our partners on the joint efforts to bring all of the remaining hostages home.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: This particular negotiation, I think, has been difficult because it's working at three levels.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: One is to mitigate the humanitarian impact of the conflict on Palestinians. The second part of it is to try and get an immediate ceasefire and hostage deal.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And the third and hardest element is try and connect all this to a bigger regional peace deal that tries to, you know, at its most ambitious and more than a century of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: President Biden has said... The United States will do everything possible to make it happen.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: What does that include? What's on offer?
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Well, what's on offer is something akin to what happened in November.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: You remember there was a one-week pause in which several dozen hostages and prisoners were released.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: After nearly seven weeks of intense fighting, finally a day of peace. As the temporary truce took hold, a moment so many have been anxiously waiting for.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: The idea is to do it again and do it on a much bigger scale. So they're talking about a six-week pause in the fighting, renewable.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And then there's obviously bargaining going on about two main things.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: One is exactly who gets released in what sequence in exchange for what.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And the other thing is, does this lead to a permanent cessation in the fighting or not?
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And what kind of progress is being made? At the moment, seemingly little.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: There was hope a week or two ago that things were fluid and moving.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Both sides seemed interested in a deal.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: But we've just heard that after the latest round of talks between intelligence chiefs, including Bill Burns, the director of the CIA in Cairo, the Israelis have said the delegation is not going back to Cairo.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And this has obviously caused much consternation and anger among the families of the hostages who feel that not enough is being done to get their loved ones home.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: What accounts for the logjam in negotiations?
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: I think it's a number of things.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: The hardest point is that Hamas wants a full cessation of violence and a full Israeli withdrawal.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Israel wants a temporary cessation in the fighting and the ability to keep fighting until total victory, as the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu puts it.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: So Hamas is not going to release its hostages if it thinks the Israelis are going to come back at them.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And Israel says we have to finish this fight so that Hamas is destroyed.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: So that's, I think, the biggest problem.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: We're seeing reports that President Biden is growing very frustrated.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: There was some reporting this morning that President Biden told some campaign donors that Prime Minister Netanyahu, quote, has been a pain in my ass lately.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Or, quote, he's been killing me lately.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: What's your sense of where Joe Biden is right now, both the pressure he's under and the ways in which his mind may have changed or be changing as this thing continues, this conflict?
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Well, I don't sit in the White House, but the one thing that Joe Biden has never done is put restrictions on the weapons that he's prepared to send Israel.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: At the same time, he has wanted greater restraint in the way Israel conducts its operations, has done a lot to try and get more humanitarian aid in, to try and convince the Israelis to think about the civilian population.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: This comes in part from America's own experience of counterinsurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan, where, you know, America learned the hard way that sheer military power is not enough, you need a political dimension.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And he's tried hard to get the Israelis to think about the day after.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: The trouble is that the day after that he sees, that Netanyahu sees are very different.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Joe Biden wants a path that ultimately leads to a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: With Israeli security guaranteed and Palestinian aspirations for their own state fulfilled.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: That's the only path that guarantees Israel's security for the long term.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Bibi Netanyahu will hear nothing of it because he says a Palestinian state will merely create another terrorist state on our borders, this time with the West Bank.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: In any future arrangement Israel needs security control over all territory west of the Jordan.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: I tell this truth to our American friends. The prime minister needs to be capable of saying no to our friends, saying no when necessary, and saying yes when possible.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: So they disagree fundamentally about where they want to go, although they're still more or less in lockstep on the current aims of the war.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: But even here, you're seeing some parching of the way.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: So for example, the Americans say the aim is to ensure Hamas can never do October the 7th again, which is not quite the same as what Bibi Netanyahu says, which is total victory in the destruction of Hamas.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And I think that implies a realization on the American side that something will remain of Hamas, even as a political idea or as a religious movement.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: You're not going to be able to eradicate that.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And Netanyahu seems to want a much more maximalist aim.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And then there are the kind of repercussions for America's position in the Middle East.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: So you're seeing an escalating and worsening second front with the so-called axis of resistance.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: These are the Iranian groups sponsored by Iran in Lebanon, in Iraq and Syria and Yemen.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And where America has now taken, you know, three fatalities under attack, has retaliated.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And there is a worry that the more this goes on, the worse it will get and the harder it will be to bottle up again.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: So for all those reasons, you're seeing tension between the two leaders.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And one of the things that really seems to have irked Netanyahu is a move to impose sanctions on a small number of settlers deemed violent in the West Bank.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Four settlers facing financial sanctions and visa bans from the U.S.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Which is really a sort of warning shot.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: It's going after not Netanyahu himself, but after his right-wing coalition.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And to some extent, after Netanyahu's base among settlers.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And this is a move that's been followed by Europeans.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: France took similar measures. Britain has done the same.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And I think there's a worry that this is going to start to exert real pressure on the settler movement, or certainly the more extreme fringe of it.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Benjamin Netanyahu is also under pressure from many sides.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And at the moment, he's speaking, he's warning of a ground invasion in Rafah.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: We talked to a journalist there earlier, and she says people there are expecting that.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: Is that changing diplomatic efforts at all?
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: I think it's adding urgency to the effort to try and wind down the war, if not stop it, and then try to get into a diplomatic process that leads to a wider settlement.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: But, you know, Netanyahu has a consideration.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: The Israeli public has moved to the right.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: For all the demonstrations that you're seeing on the streets of Israel, it is not a demand for peace now of the kind that was seen after the Lebanon War in 1982.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: The belief that peace with Palestinians is possible has been greatly eroded since the Oslo Accords of 93, for a number of reasons, not least of which is the Second Intifada of the 2000s and now October the 7th.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: So though there's urgency to get there, I think it's just much harder to do it.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And there's also mistrust on the Palestinian side of the Israelis, the weakness and discrediting of Abu Mazen.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: This is Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian leader in the West Bank, who's now in the 18th and 19th year of what is supposed to be a four-year term.
--:-- Noel King: That's a really striking thing to say. Can you tell us more about what's been happening in terms of diplomatic efforts to halt the fighting in Gaza?
--:-- Anton LaGuardia: And there is
