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--:-- Host: U.S. stock markets just ended. They're worse. What will happen? I want a crystal ball to get through this. Hey, you're listening to Explain It To Me. I'm John Glyn Hill. And I know I'm not supposed to, but after hearing all of this news about the economy, it's ups, it's downs, I did the thing they tell us not to do. I looked at my 401k and you guys, it was not cute.
--:-- Host: I started to worry, even more so for my parents and other people their age. They're so much closer to needing that money than I am right now. I am 58 years old, and I'm currently thinking about retiring from my state job and wondering, how do you know when you've got enough money? How do you know?
--:-- Claire: Hi, this is Claire. I'm 66. I want to retire. I need to retire. I'm so stressed out. I have a one-year-old grandson. I should retire, but I'm too terrified to because of everything that I see.
--:-- Host: Hi, Claire. Hi, how are you? What are some of the big questions you have about retirement right now?
--:-- Claire: Mostly it's, am I going to be able to have Social Security? I feel like its legs are trying to get cut out from under it and it's going to collapse from the weight. I feel like prices of everything is going to go up. The housing market is going to collapse. So I'm trying to find it. Mostly I want a crystal ball to get through this.
--:-- Host: I just want to know what I can do now to protect myself more than what I've been thinking of. This is unfortunately something that we have heard a lot from a lot of our readers.
--:-- Host: This is Noah Scheidlauer, economy reporter at Business Insider. He has a particular focus on older Americans. I called him up because he's heard from more than 3,000 baby boomers.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: It seems almost every conversation that I have with older Americans talk about that in some regard, where a lot of people are saying, I prepared well, but how well did I prepare? Or some people are saying, well, I don't have a ton of money right now, and I'm really nervous.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: And we have noticed this across the board, across wealthy individuals, people who are lower income, people who are relying on a lot of these social services. The Trump administration is saying we won't touch Social Security, we won't touch benefits. But we are seeing a lot of changes right now.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: And we have spoken with a lot of these older Americans who are saying, well, I used to be able to get through to Social Security in 15 minutes about a concern with my benefits. Now I'm on the phone for four or five hours. We are hearing from a lot of people who are concerned about the future of Social Security.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: Will I continue getting the same allocation that I'm getting right now? And then you have just in general, a lot of older Americans are working later. So they're living longer, but they're also having to work a lot longer.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: We are seeing some pushes right now among some representatives in Congress to potentially even push back the retirement age from 67 to 69 or 70. So there's definitely a lot of fear that a lot of older Americans have that they will need to keep working or they'll have to work until their 70s to supplement Social Security.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: What are you looking for to better understand how this economy is impacting older Americans? So we're looking at a lot of factors right now, a lot of indicators. The main thing that we're currently looking at is asset prices.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: A lot of older Americans and a lot of retirees who have a lot of equity in their homes. And their home is essentially their retirement. This is a lot of money for some people. It's six, seven figures worth of retirement money. And if a lot of their equity goes down, if the housing market kind of collapses a little bit, that will get messed up for a lot of people.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: And it's hard for older Americans to downsize as well because there's, you know, Not a lot of houses on the market right now that are selling for affordable rights. With inflation, there's many different ways of analyzing it. There's a measure that we use called the Alice Essentials Index.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: Asset limited, income constrained, employed. They look specifically at what's considered an essential. So grocery costs, for example, or housing, other sorts of medical expenses. This is what people need to survive. So this is a very interesting metric that we use to look at, well, okay, how is inflation impacting the person who is 75 and still working and is very cautious about their spending?
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: And it's indicative that inflation is rising a little bit more for some of those essentials than it is for some of the other goods that they might not be purchasing on a daily basis. For those that are panicking, are they panicking unnecessarily? Do they need to be this concerned?
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: I don't think that there is really a type of unnecessary panic. There's a lot of change happening right now. There's a lot of uncertainty occurring right now. And people have lost a lot of money. When the S&P is down 10 plus percent this year, that's a lot of money that older Americans were relying on.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: It's a little scary for a lot of people. This is a lot of money that people were banking on. And they don't know if they should be tapping into their 401ks. They don't know if they should be relying more on other sorts of income and then they won't touch their 401k.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: So it's definitely all very valid. But I also think some of them are a little bit misguided, especially because Social Security benefits have not been cut. They have not cut Medicaid yet. They have not touched Medicare yet.
--:-- Noah Scheidlauer: We just don't know what will happen. And we have been hearing from a lot of financial experts who this is their job. They speak with people who have been doing this for 30 40 years and they say you should stay tight Hang on And do anything too drastic that you may regret later
--:-- Host: OK, so don't do anything you would regret. Easier said than done, though. So how can you prepare for the worst case scenario? I'm going to ask one of my favorite personal finance columnists after this break.
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--:-- Host: I am punching a lot of pillows and doing a little cussing. We're back. It's Explain It To Me. And I'm here now with Michelle Singletary, personal finance columnist with The Washington Post.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: Yeah. I mean, like many people, I'm stressed to the max. You know, I've got a couple of years or so before I was thinking okay maybe I will retire so I still have about three or four years before I have that serious conversation with myself my husband however is retired and has been since 2023 so we're looking at his retirement account we're looking at my retirement account he's not as stressed as I am because he's always the glasses half full kind of person I'm not only is the glass half empty it's like it needs another glass with some water.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: So I'm very, you know, very concerned because you don't know when the end is near. And that's the issue with retirement planning. I mean, if we knew when we are going to pass away, if we knew how much healthcare would we need, if we knew what the housing market would do, we'd be all calm.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: But it's the unknown. And so I am punching a lot of pillows and crying and screaming and doing a little cussing, but trying to not let the fear dictate moves. And that's the key.
--:-- Host: Yeah, what do you fear that could happen? What's the like worst case scenario?
--:-- Michelle Singletary: Historically, the markets do return eventually. People come back, company, I mean, the underlying part of America, the economy is still strong. So it's the fear is how long will it take and if you have to draw down on your retirement funds, that is what is disconcerting because the balance is lower.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: And so you are pulling it out at a time where you're definitely gonna lock in recent losses. Then that means there'll be less left to grow even when the market returns. When you are retired and drawing on that, that is the fear that you'll have less and you'll have less at a time when you need more, like for healthcare.
--:-- Host: Okay, so I was particularly interested in this episode because my parents are boomers. And, you know, I tend to give that generation a lot of grief. But it does come from a place of love. You know, what advice do you have for listeners who are like me, where you want to be able to help the older people in your life, whether that's with advice or anything else?
--:-- Michelle Singletary: Well, it's understandable that you're concerned about your parents and also lots of parents. You know, you don't necessarily want to reveal everything, especially if you're feeling bad that you don't have enough money.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: But I think this is a good opportunity to have open conversations. How do you recommend that listeners start that conversation with the retirement age folks in their lives? Just, you know, like the next time you say, hey, you know, I'd love to talk to you about this because I'm a little worried.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: You know, I'm saving for retirement and this is what's concerning me. And then you say, how about you? What you don't want to do is like, do you have any money? What's going on? You don't want to come at them in a more adversarial way.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: Or, as I said, you don't want to come out like you are now the parent. You should see each other as companions and accountability partners. And come at them saying, you know, I want to help you if you're concerned because I'm concerned.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: And so you make it more like you're going to be working at this together. Because if you find it that they are or they were not ready, that you have to be sure that you have secured your finances so that if you have to step up to help, there are some resources there to help them.
--:-- Host: What should people prioritize when they look at their finances?
--:-- Michelle Singletary: I think right now in this moment, cash is king. I would be stockpiling cash in a high yield savings account in case you lose your job, in case the economy really does go into a recession if it gets worse than it is now.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: I don't want to panic people, although it's perfectly fine if you're scared because that's just human nature. But I will say the prudent thing right now is to say, don't go into any kind of debt or use a lot of cash that you might need if you lose your job.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: Now, my husband and I are not in that situation, but we did pull back on a major home improvement project that we were going to do just to see how things shake out. That's the kind of conversation you should be having with yourself.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: But if you're not on a budget right now, you need to get on a budget yesterday.
--:-- Host: What advice do you have for people who are at retirement age but haven't been able to save as much? Is there anything they can do to play catch up?
--:-- Michelle Singletary: Yeah, the first thing I would say is don't beat yourself up. You know, you are where you are and accept that, but do something about it. So if you are getting close to retirement, are you about that? Or a time where you think, then you've got to make some hard decisions.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: Are you ready to retire? You might say, I wanted to retire at 62. I'm going to retire no matter what. Well, you can't retire at 62. You don't have enough. Many people work into their late 60s and 70s and 80s. So if that's you, that might be what you have to do.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: And or you look at your housing situation. Because aside from some of your other bills housing is the biggest part of your budget so you might have to say you know what those young adults that was asking me about my money maybe I have to move in with them or they move in with me
--:-- Michelle Singletary: So you got to look at the big ticket items and then you make decisions by that So let say you near retirement but you can work anymore. You're not healthy. Then you look at collecting social security a little earlier.
--:-- Host: Are there resources available for people who don't have as much saved?
--:-- Michelle Singletary: So two places I really recommend people to go. First of all, it's AARP. They have a whole section on that website for retiring, retiring in place, long-term care information, how to do your estate planning.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: And then also your local aging office, it has a tremendous amount of resources for those who may not have enough, who have housing insecurity or food insecurity. And then hopefully you're connected to some community group, whether it's through your faith or some mother grid.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: Get connected in your community because there are some resources that can help you, but you won't know if you're not connected.
--:-- Host: Financial advice can admittedly be a little frustrating because I think we hear the same thing over and over again, you know, like sit tight, stay the course, don't make any rash decisions. What do you say to people who feel antsy right now who want a different answer than what they usually hear?
--:-- Michelle Singletary: So this happens a lot. People want, They ask you a question and they really have already made up their mind. They want you to co-sign on a bad situation. Listen, good advice is good advice no matter what.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: And people want a microwave answer to a problem that need to be baked in the oven. And so you can't microwave your way away from situations like we're going right now. You just can't.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: We know by history, that's how we look at things. You know, the market eventually returns historically. Could it change in the future? Sure it can. But we have decades and decades of data that show that when we go into an economic downturn, we come out.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: It's in everybody's interest that that happens. And you have to feel what you need to feel. I will not tell you not to panic when the market goes down. I will not tell you that because it is human to be mad and angry and upset and scared.
--:-- Michelle Singletary: Be all of those. Just don't make decisions in that moment. Depending on a lot of different factors, some of us may be in the workforce longer than we anticipated. Or we may have to go back on the job market after we've left it. How can generations work together in the workplace? Stay tuned.
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--:-- Host: Okay, so we heard from a lot of you about your concerns around 401ks, But we also got a call from Marsha in Oklahoma who had another kind of concern about her generation.
--:-- Marsha: So I am about to turn 70 and was requested to apply for and hired for a job of some significance, I think. And prior to this, I've always been one who thought by the age of 70, you were irrelevant in the workplace.
--:-- Host: So what I'm interested in hearing is how does the workforce view boomers in the workplace? And what are some of the annoyances that somebody my age or the boomer generation should be sensitive to in the workplace?
--:-- Marsha: Thanks very much. This is Marcia.
--:-- Host: Our producer Gabrielle called Marcia back to hear more about her new job working for the city of Tulsa.
--:-- Marsha: Did you start the job?
--:-- Host: I did, yeah. I mean, I'm just days away from 70 years old, so I just still felt like I had something to give. And I still do today. It's everything. The way it works is so interesting to me.
--:-- Marsha: What were you worried about going into this job with regards to working with people who were younger?
--:-- Host: I think I was worried about walking in and then thinking, what could this old person possibly have to contribute? You know what I mean?
--:-- Host: Oh, I'm like, don't talk about Marsha that way. I just wondered if today's workforce, which certainly in this administration where I'm working is skis younger, which is great.
--:-- Host: What feelings they harbor about having to carry older workers, you know, on their shoulders? That's a great question.
--:-- Host: And it shows, you know, great self-awareness and humility. My initial reaction is, don't be too worried.
--:-- Host: We posed Marsha's question to Professor Bobby Duffy. He lives across the pond where he studies generational differences at the Policy Institute at King's College London.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: There is definitely a more general perception that boomers are generally greedy. The kind of theme is a sense of selfishness. And for the younger generations, like Gen Z... The most entitled generation, the most difficult generation in the workplace, that they can't be bothered to check emails, having breakdowns about the difficulty of a nine-to-five job.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: You can go all the way back to the Industrial Revolution, where things were changing fast, and there was a sense that younger generations had a better understanding of the technology that was coming through. Older generations were becoming a bit obsolete.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: But I think it worse today in many ways because we also do have a much more stereotypical view through our social media and media environment of what are the very exaggerated view of the differences between the generations or the characters of individual generations
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: You studied how much these stereotypes hold up in reality. What data were you collecting and where from?
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: What I do is I look at very long-term surveys, going back to 50s and 60s. So really big studies like the General Social Survey of the US, massive annual study that gives you measures of all different aspects of attitudes and behaviors.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: And the key thing is to do it over a long enough term so you can see that this is something to do with this particular generation being different.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: Did you find that these generational stereotypes hold up to reality?
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: No, very, very often they don't at all. The gap between young and old today is very similar to the gap between young and old in the past.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: So baby boomers were also much more comfortable with different changing social norms when they were young compared to their parents and grandparents. In fact, when I look across decades of this data, there is no particularly big divide between young and old today compared to the past, although it feels like that partly because our media or social media really emphasize and exaggerate the differences between the generations.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: Who does that myth-making serve?
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: It kind of refers back to, firstly, the change in our information environment, and particularly in media and social media. Boomers really are the most out-of-touch and entitled generation there is, and it's not even close. Sick day.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: Okay, you don't sound terrible. Do you mind just turning on your camera so I can see that you're actually sick?
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: I think that context of we've created this information environment where these are shorthand labels for stereotypes does imbue itself into our general understanding of these generations and that leaks into the workplace.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: Gen Z at work, of course I'm closing my laptop at 5pm on the dot. I'm a Gen Z Incorporate, what do you mean what is a mental health day? Figure it out because I'm taking one a month.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: Sorry. I just worked eight hours and you expect me to go make dinner right now? But then I think there's an important second element to this is that people can make money out of these divides. And you can see, you know, on LinkedIn, there are people who call themselves millennial consultants.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: This vast swathe of the population that they have particular insight in. So it's kind of creating a problem to solve the problem and charge you for it.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: Are there benefits you've found to intergenerational workplaces?
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think this is a growing area of study and interest because there are some great examples of individual organizations setting in place schemes that deliberately bring different generations together around a particular problem or strategy or open up competitions across generations.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: And you can see that those organizations who start to do those types of things end up being more innovative, coming up with more ideas, they're more resilient and adaptable. And I think the key to that is connecting people, getting over those stereotypes.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: And the only way to get over those stereotypes and think of each other as assets to the business is to have more contact.
--:-- Host: Do you have any practical tips for baby boomers who are navigating intergenerational workplaces? And especially for those who maybe were like, stopped working, now they're back, or, you know, it's like, okay, I'm going to have to work a little longer. I'm going to be with people who are younger than me. How should they navigate that?
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: Yeah, I think the first bit of the tips on this, I think is to not be overly worried about the difference, that people aren't as different as the stereotypes that you'll have seen.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: Then the second point is that we are living much more separately across the generations than we have at any point in human history. We've kind of sorted young people into cities, older people outside. We've got digital lives where different generations are doing very different things on different platforms to different intensities.
--:-- Professor Bobby Duffy: So the workplace is one of the few places where we're pushed together. And connections across the generations benefit both the older and the younger side of that equally.
--:-- Host: That makes me feel much better, actually. Oh, really? Yeah. We shared what we learned from Professor Bobby with Marsha.
--:-- Marsha: So like while you were talking, you said the word resilience. And so I immediately jumped on that word because in like in group think sort of discussions, it sort of feels like the millennials have these what they believe are these fresh, new, great ideas that boomers have probably sort of seen in some fashion.
--:-- Marsha: And so if the boomer speaks up against them, that it's like we're afraid to try new things. But the truth is, if you have the right collaboration, what we've learned from maybe doing it and not doing it right the first time, taking their idea and our maybe known pitfalls, is where the resilience of something good, you know, can come out of it.
--:-- Marsha: How is it going so far? Like, how is working with your younger colleagues?
--:-- Marsha: It's great I don't want to be part of if a group of them goes for a happy hour I don't want to be and don't feel like I need to be part of that because they kind of gather at my desk in the mornings to kind of set the day off and I get to hear about the evening before anyway so I like that because I feel like they're wanting to share it with me without me having to, you know, have been there.
--:-- Marsha: So, so far really it's, it's good. And I'm more relaxed than I thought I was that I do want to remain self-aware. Um, I don't want to fall into a trap and be a stumbling block. So far. I don't regret it one bit.
--:-- Host: Well, thank you so much for calling in and good luck with your new job. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
--:-- Host: Thanks to everyone who called in to share your experiences for this episode. Coming up, we're doing an episode about personal style, why it's so hard to figure out what to wear and what not to wear and where to even start when it comes to developing your style.
--:-- Host: Are you trying to find it or have you already figured it out? If you did, how'd you do it? Give us a call and leave us a message. Our number is 1-800-618-8545.
--:-- Host: This episode was produced by Gabrielle Burbet and Carla Javier, who also runs our show. It was edited by our executive producer, Miranda Kennedy, Melissa Hirsch, check the facts, Andrea Kristen's daughter, and Patrick Boyd, mixed and engineered.
--:-- Host: And I'm John Fullen Hill. Talk to you soon. Bye.
