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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Noel King: And I'm Noel King.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today, we're going to explain how Rudy Giuliani went from "America's mayor" to the inadvertent architect of Donald Trump's pending impeachment.
--:-- Noel King: That's right. And to help us understand this epic fall, we have Andrew Kurtzman, a veteran political reporter who's written a book about Giuliani's life.
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Thanks for having me on the show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, Rudy Giuliani's story is a long and complicated one. But let's start with the basics. He's a New York City native, born in 1944.
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: That's right. And he created a biography of his childhood that turned out to be not completely true.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so let's get into that. Rudy Giuliani's father was a loan shark, not a bar owner.
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: That's right. And it was an investigative reporter named Wayne Barrett who uncovered the truth.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so how does Rudy Giuliani become a public figure?
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, before he got involved in politics, he was a lawyer. He went to the Justice Department under Reagan and then took over the U.S. Attorney's Office in the early 1980s.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he became the most celebrated U.S. Attorney in modern times.
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: That's right. He was the Eliot Ness of that decade, and he was a front-page figure for years and years because of his unapologetic, fearless efforts to decapitate the mafia.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so how does he get into politics?
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, he used his crime-fighting achievements as the basis for his run for mayor of New York City in 1989.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it was a successful campaign.
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: That's right. He became the mayor of New York City in 1993.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so what's his relationship like with the black community during his mayoralty?
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, it was fraught. He used the police as kind of his army, and the crackdown on crime was enormously successful, but it came on the backs of the civil liberties of black New Yorkers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so let's talk about 9/11. How does Rudy Giuliani respond to the attacks?
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, he becomes kind of the calmest one in the bunch. He's standing next to me, and he's waving me over as we're walking north away from the towers, which are smoking.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so how does his tone change after 9/11?
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, it's an extraordinary display of leadership. He becomes kind of the father figure, and it's a very, very refreshing thing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so let's talk about his presidential run in 2008.
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, it was a disaster. He was as unprepared for that race as he was in the 1989 race for mayor.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so how does he end up as Donald Trump's personal attorney?
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, Giuliani and Trump had a passing admiration for each other, but they didn't spend a lot of time together.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so what's the relationship like between Giuliani and Trump?
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, it's a very, very deep relationship at this point. And of course, this very loyal, very strong and deep relationship eventually gets both of these people in a whole heap of trouble.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so let's talk about the Mueller investigation.
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, Giuliani comes aboard as Trump's personal attorney, and he tells the press that he only planned to stick around for a few weeks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so what happens next?
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, Giuliani throws gasoline on the fire and encourages Trump's paranoid view of what had happened in his race against Hillary Clinton.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so what's the current situation with Giuliani?
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, he's being investigated and could be prosecuted by the same U.S. attorney's office that he once led.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so what's driving Giuliani's behavior?
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: I don't know what's driving it. But he's lost a lot of that discipline. He's kind of lashing out.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so let's talk about the current situation with Trump and Ukraine.
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Well, Giuliani's actions in Ukraine have led to the president's pending impeachment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, so what's the takeaway from Rudy Giuliani's story?
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: The story is just beyond epic. And if he had just gone off after being New York's mayor and presiding over 9/11 and become a professor or an author or an occasional commentator, he would have some sort of legendary legacy in American politics.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] Okay, thanks for joining us on the show, Andrew.
--:-- Andrew Kurtzman: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [pauses] And that's it for today's show. Thanks for listening to Today Explained.
--:-- Noel King: [laughs] And thanks to KiwiCo for supporting the program today.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [laughs] Yeah, KiwiCo is offering you the chance to try their projects for kids, for adults, for grandparents out for free.
--:-- Noel King: [laughs] Just go to kiwico.com slash explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: [laughs] Thanks for listening, and we'll see you tomorrow.
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