--:-- Noel King: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Noel King.
--:-- Noel King: Protests against Tesla embody the outrage against Elon Musk's DOGE-e behavior. But Musk doesn't seem to care. And given his position in the federal government, he may not have to.
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--:-- Noel King: I'm joined today by Andrew Hawkins, transportation editor at The Verge. Andrew, thanks for coming on the show.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Thanks for having me, Noel.
--:-- Noel King: So, let's start with the basics. What's been happening with Tesla's stock since the election?
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Well, it's been a wild ride. Immediately after the election, Tesla's stock skyrocketed. It was a phenomenal rally, really rewarding Musk for what investors saw as making the correct bet in that election.
--:-- Noel King: And since then?
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: It's been basically the opposite. Tesla has pretty much wiped out all of its gains since the election. The downdraft coming as CEO Elon Musk takes on a more prominent and polarizing role in Washington than originally thought.
--:-- Noel King: Okay, so that's the stock market. What's been happening to people who own Teslas?
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: You have all of these people who own Teslas, and there are millions of Teslas out on the road today, many of them in the United States, who are deeply regretting their purchases because of Musk's hard right turn, his associations with the Trump administration.
--:-- Noel King: But just more than that, right? It's his persona, his trolling online, throwing Nazi salutes at the inauguration, denigrating DEI and trans people.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: And I think a lot of Tesla owners now are seeing that and are just shocked, because especially if you consider the type of person that would buy a Tesla, for years, it was largely, it was, you know, coastal elites, liberal, progressive-minded people, people who believed in climate change, who thought that, you know, by buying an electric car, they were decreasing their own carbon footprint.
--:-- Noel King: And now they are left with sort of this totem to Musk's hard right turn that's just sort of sitting in their driveways.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: And I think a lot of them are deeply disappointed. Some have even started selling their vehicles.
--:-- Noel King: We saw, I think last month, a musician, Sheryl Crow, very publicly sold her Tesla and posted about it on Instagram.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Yes, that's correct. She was like, I'm going to double barrel this, guys, just in case.
--:-- Noel King: So not everybody can afford to donate their car to NPR. What have we seen from people who are like, I don't agree with this gentleman's politics, but I do need to keep driving this?
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: So you've got a whole kind of like aftermarket accessory market that's sprung up. Bumper stickers saying, you know, I bought this car before Elon went crazy. I hate him too are some of the slogans that people are putting on the backs of their vehicles.
--:-- Noel King: You know, trying to sort of send the signal out into the world that, yes, I'm driving a Tesla, but that does not mean that I necessarily support Elon Musk, support his agenda.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: I'm certainly not a Trump supporter.
--:-- Noel King: We've seen there's been a number of incidents now of people with Tesla vehicles, Tesla owners being targeted for harassment, for vandalism.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: The Cybertruck in particular has become a favorite target of people who are opposed to Elon Musk and to Doge.
--:-- Noel King: Good morning. Your Cybertruck is stupid and I fucking hate it.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: So I just found out that everyone hates the Cybertruck. I mean, like, I kind of thought that some people didn't like it, but I found out the hard way that people really don't like it.
--:-- Noel King: And it's called Cybertruck. Like, it sounds like a 1980s Wesley Snipes movie.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: People will not just point and give us thumbs down. You know, it became like people screaming out of the car, some more middle fingers, you know, trying to cut us off.
--:-- Noel King: Think of all of the things you could have spent $140,000 on and you chose a bloated DeLorean.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Why do you think the Cybertruck has become the favorite of Vandals?
--:-- Noel King: You know, there really just no other better symbol for Musk and his kind of like transformation from this like guy who you know going to save the world through electric cars and through rockets and we going to live on Mars and all of these sort of like high-minded ideals that people associated with him early on.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: And we got all of these vehicles, the Model 3 and the Model Y were sort of rounded and cute and very sort of aerodynamic and full of tech that people seem to really like. And then the next vehicle was the Cybertruck. And it's this stainless steel, low-poly, angry triangle.
--:-- Noel King: I've heard a lot of people describe it as, you know, sort of bulletproof.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: You know, Musk himself described it as like the perfect vehicle for the dystopia, the dystopian future.
--:-- Noel King: You know, you never know when the apocalypse could come along at any moment.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: And at Kira Tesla, we have the finest in apocalypse technology.
--:-- Noel King: You could have just said it's ugly, but I'm glad that you gave us the context too.
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--:-- Noel King: All right, so listen, once upon a time, you and I know, as people who did, you know, high school history, Americans used to, in order to get things done politically, Americans used to boycott. They used to protest. They used to refuse to buy products.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Are we seeing anything organized, for example, or is it just, you know, Joe Smith here is giving his Tesla away. Cheryl's giving hers to NPR.
--:-- Noel King: Like, is there is there momentum behind this?
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Yeah, absolutely there is. It started in early February with a handful of demonstrations and protests outside of Tesla showrooms and occasionally supercharging stations, small gatherings of people coming out with signs and demonstrating their opposition to Musk into this takeover of the federal government.
--:-- Noel King: Two, three, four, let's pick Elon out the door.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: And since then, over the past month and a half, it's really just kind of exploded. In New York, there were arrests after a demonstration at a Tesla showroom. Last week in Oregon, the windows of a dealership were shattered by bullets.
--:-- Noel King: And in Massachusetts, a Tesla charging station went up in flames.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: The destruction of property here at the Tesla Center in Salem is only one example in a pattern of vandalism against Teslas across the nation.
--:-- Noel King: And now we're seeing, you know, there's been hundreds of these protests now and overseas as well in Europe and other countries.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: There have been demonstrations. And, you know, Tesla has really become a target for people who are watching what's happening on a day to day basis.
--:-- Noel King: Listening to Musk talk about, you know, feeding agencies like USAID into the wood chipper.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: This is the chainsaw for bureaucracy. Chainsaw. Federal employees being forced to list their accomplishments or being forced to take buyouts.
--:-- Noel King: Chaos in national parks as park rangers are being laid off.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: They're fearful of a rise in sort of this oligarchic type movement.
--:-- Noel King: And, you know, it's really kind of a fascinating thing to me, too, because I think during the first Trump administration, right, it was all about sort of a huge show of force.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: There was the Women's March in D.C. and then in New York and other places.
--:-- Noel King: And it was about, you know, sort of thousands, tens of thousands of people coming out all at once and demonstrating that this was, you know, an election that they disagreed with.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Now we're seeing sort of much smaller protests, but spread out all across the country.
--:-- Noel King: And it's because these Tesla showrooms are really just sort of like the perfect target, I think, for people in their effort to sort of demonstrate that they are opposed to Musk and what he's doing.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Is any of this actually denting sales numbers?
--:-- Noel King: So I think it's a little bit too soon to tell whether or not the protests are affecting sales.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: But I will say that Tesla ended 2024 with its first drop in sales in, I think, over a decade.
--:-- Noel King: And that's because a number of things. There's more competition, right? A lot of the legacy automakers are starting to make electric vehicles.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Now Tesla is not the only game anymore.
--:-- Noel King: And so their market share has been dropping.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: But it's also because specifically in China, the competition has become really fierce.
--:-- Noel King: There's also a lot of other things that are going on. Tesla's lineup is pretty stale.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: It's, you know, the most of its vehicles that it sells are the Model 3 and the Model Y.
--:-- Noel King: And they haven't really been updated until just recently.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Incentives are going away, right? Trump said he's getting rid of all the EV incentives that Biden put in place.
--:-- Noel King: So it's not looking pretty good for Tesla in the near term in terms of like being able to get that stock price up in getting the sales to pick back up as well.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Have you seen any sign that he is worried about this?
--:-- Noel King: I listen to the earnings calls that they have every quarter. It's been fascinating lately because the topics that he'll talk about have become less and less about cars and more and more about AI and robotics.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: And it seems clear to me that he's not interested in owning and running a car company anymore.
--:-- Noel King: What he really wants to do is to be the CEO of an AI and robotics company.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: And I think that we're seeing that because the company is obviously trying to pivot to self-driving cars, to robo-taxis.
--:-- Noel King: They've got this cyber cab that they unveiled last year and are planning to start production on in 2026.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: They've got these humanoid optimist robots that Musk claims is going to be a trillion-dollar business, and they're going to replace warehouse labor, and they're going to be home help aides.
--:-- Noel King: And he wants it to become this new mission.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: And it's not clear that that's going to be as successful for him.
--:-- Noel King: And so he believes his future is in AI and robotics.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: It seems like Tesla is now kind of like the redheaded stepchild. It's not as important to me.
--:-- Noel King: So he's still very rich. He's even more powerful by Donald Trump's side.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Is it possible that Tesla doesn't really matter very much to him? That Tesla being hit in this fashion with the protests and the dented sales and it changing from being like a status card to being like, oh, God, it's like a Civic.
--:-- Noel King: Maybe it doesn't matter to him at all.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: I mean, I think that's a really great question because it is certainly the case that as the world's richest man, you know, how much money does he need to lose for this kind of stuff to matter, right?
--:-- Noel King: So he can – I think that that is sort of the crux, right? he can lose $121 billion in the span of several weeks, and it doesn't really dent that much.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: It doesn't really phase him that much.
--:-- Noel King: And now he has this inside track on the federal government, this important position in the Trump administration as the special advisor, unelected, unaccountable to anyone, basically, except to Trump.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: It's clear to me that this maybe was the ultimate goal right He has his hands on the levers of power in a way that he never has before
--:-- Noel King: It's hard to imagine what kind of effect there would need to be in order to get him to change his tactics when he has amassed so much wealth and power over the past year and a half or so to the point where maybe just none of this really matters.
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--:-- Noel King: Coming up, what's it like to be a CEO and also an elected vice president that's never been done before? Elon's Washington Adventure.
--:-- Andrew Hawkins: Stay turnt.
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--:-- Noel King: Support for the show today comes from LifeKit, the podcast from NPR.
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--:-- Noel King: They didn't ask that.
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--:-- Noel King: Today Explained, Fez Siddiqui is here. He covers Doge for The Washington Post.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Thanks for having me on the show.
--:-- Noel King: So, in the time before Doge, before Elon Musk came to Washington, what kind of business did he have with the federal government?
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Elon Musk has a long history of relationships with the federal government. Both of his major companies, SpaceX and Tesla, have dealt with the government for years.
--:-- Noel King: Over the past decade, Musk's company, SpaceX and Tesla were together awarded at least $18 billion in federal contracts.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: That is according to spending data.
--:-- Noel King: NASA called and told us that we'd won a $1.5 billion contract.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: And I couldn't even hold the quote. I just blurted out, I love you guys.
--:-- Noel King: SpaceX has received billions in federal contract awards.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Tesla is regulated in some ways by the federal government. Its autonomous vehicle ambitions are handled by the federal government.
--:-- Noel King: SpaceX is regulated by the FAA.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: It obviously has an extensive relationship with NASA.
--:-- Noel King: X, Twitter, the social media company that he bought, has a history with the Federal Trade Commission.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Musk has a long and documented history with the Securities and Exchange Commission.
--:-- Noel King: The Securities and Exchange Commission sued tech billionaire Elon Musk on Tuesday, accusing him of securities fraud linked to his $44 billion takeover of Twitter, now known as X.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Remember, in 2018, Elon Musk, Tesla and the SEC agreed to have some of his tweets pre-approved by lawyers at Tesla.
--:-- Noel King: And Neuralink, his brain chip implant company, has interactions with the Food and Drug Administration.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: So there is just an extensive history of interaction between Elon Musk and the federal government.
--:-- Noel King: So all of that is prior to Elon coming to D.C. and doing Doge.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Since he's been in Washington, how has he used his newfound influence to benefit his businesses?
--:-- Noel King: What do we know?
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: So Elon Musk's empire, the economic engine of Elon Musk's empire, is Tesla's stock.
--:-- Noel King: At times, it has made up more than $100 billion of his net worth.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Since Election Day, and especially in those initial weeks and months leading up to the inauguration, Musk benefited enormously financially to the tune of over $100 billion, largely on the belief that Musk's proximity to the White House would benefit his businesses.
--:-- Noel King: There was this idea that suddenly Tesla, which has been entrenched in this years-long battle over its autonomous vehicle ambitions, you know, with federal regulators, that suddenly the pathway would clear for Tesla to be able to launch these vehicles on the road.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: And there was this feeling that suddenly all of the regulatory friction, the inertia, that would all clear up and that would be of enormous benefit to Tesla.
--:-- Noel King: So Elon Musk comes to Washington and his company's stock skyrockets.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: One might say well Elon Musk didn't do that The market did that because the market said hey this guy is now a Washington insider This is going to be great for shareholders Let buy Tesla stock
--:-- Noel King: Are there examples of Elon makes a move and as a result his company one of his companies gets XYZ
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: We've reported on the fact that the FAA was reviewing a communications contract, an aviation communications contract previously awarded to Verizon, another company, and examining, potentially awarding some of that work to Starlink, one of Elon Musk's companies, or part of SpaceX.
--:-- Noel King: And this was happening at the same time that SpaceX employees were operating out of the FAA.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: So there's this question of, okay, so isn't it the market that's benefiting Elon's businesses, not Elon himself?
--:-- Noel King: But the market is benefiting those businesses on the belief that Elon's proximity to power will clear the pathway for him to unleash all of these ambitions.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: So you talked to employees within the FAA. They're aware of what's going on here, that this contract may go from Verizon to Starlink.
--:-- Noel King: What did they tell you?
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: There was just this feeling of hesitance and discomfort over the idea, one, that the individuals working for a company regulated by their agency are now working from within their agency.
--:-- Noel King: And two, just sort of like a disbelief that something like this would be happening potentially, you know, out in the open.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: It feels sort of so brash and brazen.
--:-- Noel King: In the first half of the show, we heard that, as you laid out, Tesla's share price spikes after the election.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: But then it plummets as people get frustrated with Elon running around Washington and Tesla's cyber trucks are attacked.
--:-- Noel King: So right now his stock is up and down.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: And so if we're if we say, well, is Tesla really going to benefit? Maybe the answer is to be determined.
--:-- Noel King: But are there other ways other than the stock price that Tesla will benefit from Elon having this close relationship with the Trump administration?
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: So Tesla, for years, has tried to unleash a fully autonomous car on the roads.
--:-- Noel King: When you get in, you'll see like it's really quite a wild experience to just be in a car with no steering wheel, no pedals, no controls.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: And it feels great.
--:-- Noel King: And the autonomous vehicles that you see on the road are these sort of rolling science experiments.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: This parking lot full of driverless Waymo cars has had multiple incidents where suddenly the vehicles become confused and start honking all at each other.
--:-- Noel King: It's circling around a parking lot. I got my seatbelt on. I can't get out the car.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Has this been hacked? What's going on? I feel like I'm in the movies.
--:-- Noel King: Teslas are consumer vehicles. They would have faced so much pushback against this idea under, you know, a different regulatory apparatus.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: In the one they're seeing now, Tesla is valued as a tech company that is going to be able to realize this ambition and put these cars on the road and deliver them to consumers under the promise of autonomy.
--:-- Noel King: And so the company's product roadmap benefits from this belief that there's not going to be regulatory interference.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: And the company essentially gets to sell investors on a story that it's operating outside of the established principles of the business they're in.
--:-- Noel King: Fez, we are less than two months out from Inauguration Day.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: And clearly there's been a lot of movement for Elon Musk's companies and in the market reaction to them.
--:-- Noel King: What does he stand to gain over the next three years and 10 months?
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Yeah, I mean, there is sort of an unlimited ceiling on what he stands to gain.
--:-- Noel King: Of course, there's so much at stake for him at the same time.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: What we're seeing, what we've seen over the past five or so days is sort of unprecedented.
--:-- Noel King: I mean, I've doge reined in essentially with Trump telling cabinet secretaries that they're in charge of, you know, cuts to their workforces, not doge.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: We've seen one of Elon Musk's rockets, the Starship, explode.
--:-- Noel King: Oh, is that a SpaceX launch?
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: It looked like a launch.
--:-- Noel King: SpaceX's massive second generation Starship unfortunately had another failure on orbit that sent it spinning out of control.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Awesome. They said it did blow up.
--:-- Noel King: Oh, it did blow up?
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: That's what Chad is saying.
--:-- Noel King: That wasn't normal.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: X has had what looks like its biggest disruption in years.
--:-- Noel King: It's in the middle of a major outage.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Tesla's stock is being pummeled.
--:-- Noel King: And so there's just this sense that Elon actually stands to potentially lose a lot.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: The flip side of that is, financially, at times, post-election, his wealth has been up by more than $100 billion.
--:-- Noel King: And there's no ceiling on that kind of thing.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: His proximity to power puts him in not only a position of great influence over, again, you know, the leader of the free world, but it also gives him the ability to benefit his businesses, whether directly or indirectly, in all kinds of ways.
--:-- Noel King: Fez Siddiqui covers Doge for The Washington Post.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: He's also author of the forthcoming book Hubris Maximus, The Shattering of Elon Musk, out in April.
--:-- Noel King: Devin Schwartz produced today's show.
--:-- Fez Siddiqui: Jolie Myers edited.
--:-- Noel King: Andrea Kristen's daughter and Patrick Boyd are our engineers, and Laura Bullard checked the facts.
--:-- Noel King: I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. We'll be right back.
