--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Support for today's Explained comes from Quip Electric Toothbrushes, a better electric toothbrush.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Here's what's better about it. The Quip Electric Toothbrush starts at just $25. Your first set of refills is free when you go to getquip.com slash explained. And after that, refills are just $5 every three months.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Andrew Prokrop, you're a senior correspondent here at Vox. Jeff Sessions is out as attorney general. Was this a firing or is it a resignation?
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Well, he did not know when he woke up Wednesday morning that it would be his last day at the Justice Department. Chief of Staff John Kelly called him and told him basically to resign.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): In the letter Sessions released, he said he was asked to resign. Reportedly, Sessions asked if he could stay in the job until the end of the week and John Kelly said no.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: So it doesn't look very voluntary. And why did Trump ask for his resignation? Was this the classic, you recused yourself from the Mueller investigation, or is there something else going on here?
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): That's basically the heart of it. Back in March 2017, Sessions decided to recuse himself from any investigations into the 2016 presidential campaign, and Trump has been completely furious at him since then.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Trump publicly berated him to try to pressure him to resign. Sessions resisted those pressures and was backed by Republican senators at the time who thought that the president pushing out an attorney general for reasons pertaining to an investigation into him, meaning that he wouldn't recuse himself, would look really, really corrupt.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): But for some reason, these Republican senators seem to have decided that it's OK to do it after the election. So the Republicans pre-election aren't on board because it would look hella corrupt. What changed between then and now?
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: I think a few things changed. First is that, you know, time passed. And since that first crisis, he's stayed in the job for over a year. After the midterms is a general time to make changes in your cabinet.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): I think the other thing that changed is that Trump has been fighting back in the court of public opinion about the Mueller investigation and has been trying to delegitimize it, discredit it. He has pretty effectively polarized opinion in the country about the Mueller investigation.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: It's toxic to be too supportive of Mueller. Trump has kind of effectively delegitimized it in the minds of his supporters as a witch hunt.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Who is Donald Trump going to replace Jeff Sessions with in the immediate aftermath of this resignation?
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Generally, when you fire the attorney general or ask him to leave, the deputy attorney general would take over, which would be Rod Rosenstein. That is not what is happening here.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Trump has gone out of the line of succession to name Sessions' chief of staff, Matthew Whitaker, to the job of acting attorney general while he tries to find a replacement.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: So I guess there are two unusual things happening here. One is that he didn't even leave Sessions in the job long enough to figure out who he was going to permanently replace him with.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And second is that once he did oust Sessions, he didn't just let Rosenstein take over, but picked this other guy who has some pretty concerning stuff in his record of public statements about the Mueller investigation specifically.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Tell me more.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: So Whitaker just to tell you a bit about who he is first he was U.S. attorney for the southern district of Iowa under George W. Bush for a few years and and that's his main justice department experience okay since then he's been kind of bouncing around republican politics and various legal and business stuff.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And then in the summer of 2017, Whitaker became noteworthy for going on CNN and attacking the Mueller investigation.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: There is no evidence, and we would know by now as much leaking as there has been, that there was collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian officials. There is no criminal obstruction of justice charge to be had here.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): There's just the evidence is weak. No reasonable prosecutor would bring a case on what we know right now.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: He wrote a column which was called Mueller's investigation of Trump is going too far. He warned Mueller not to look too closely at Trump's finances and said Any investigation into President Trump's finances or the finances of his family would require Mueller to return to Rod Rosenstein for additional authority under Mueller's appointment as special counsel.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): If he were to continue to investigate the financial relationships without a broadened scope in his appointment, then this would raise serious concerns that the special counsel's investigation was a mere witch hunt.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: But this was before he was chief of staff. This is when he was just a commentator in the media And here the thing He has reportedly told people that he was doing this specifically to get Trump attention because Trump watches cable news all the time
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So whereas this might have disqualified him from working in the Department of Justice under a different president, under this president, it made him an appealing candidate? It sort of looks like a job audition in some ways.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: The big question with this firing and replacement is what does this mean for the Mueller investigation? So there are three scenarios here.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Number one is that Whitaker is coming in as kind of a hatchet man to end the probe. Fire Mueller, shut everything down.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: You know, that is obviously the most worrying scenario. But there are a couple of reasons to think that might not happen. There are legal problems with firing Mueller. Whitaker himself could be on the hook for obstruction of justice if he does this.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So then scenario two is that Whitaker lets Mueller continue but kind of reins him in.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Whitaker himself has talked about... I could see a scenario where Jeff Sessions is replaced with a recess appointment and that attorney general doesn't fire Bob Mueller, but he just reduces his budget so low that his investigation grinds to almost a fall.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): He could also refuse to sign off on new investigative moves, demand more evidence on certain things before moving forward, try to cover up a report that Mueller writes, make sure it's not released to Congress or publicly.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: And then there's number three, which is that actually it kind of turns out fine that Whitaker, whether due to fear of exposing himself to legal jeopardy or political blowback, that he just doesn't interfere much.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): I mean, there are even already calls for him to recuse himself because of his past comments about the investigation.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Right. Now, Trump is said to not believe that Whitaker would recuse himself. Seems unlikely. They might have talked about that beforehand. Yeah.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): But if they talked about it, that makes the whole obstruction of justice risk worse. Right. So there is a kind of, you know, wink-wink aspect to how Trump might want this interfered with because all this might end up in a courtroom someday.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So what's next for Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III? Is he going to try and get his Senate seat back? Is he going to retire to Alabama? Do we have any idea?
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Sessions' Senate seat was, of course, the one that Democrat Doug Jones surprisingly won in a special election last year.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Sessions is 71 years old. I don't know if he would necessarily want to go back to the Senate.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: It's a possibility and he would be the favorite to win. But also he might just want to let someone new have a shot.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): This has been a kind of stressful couple of years for him as attorney general and he might want to enjoy some time to himself.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Up next on today explained how Jeffrey Beauregard Sessions III went from being a fringe politician to being the nation's top cop to being fired the day after the election.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): I'm still on this mission to figure out what I should do with the Quip electric toothbrush that's on my desk.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: And I'm so appreciative of the emails that have come in. Mark says, I've found that sonic toothbrushes are great for manually fertilizing tomatoes. The vibrations make them release pollen.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Good to know, Mark. I don't have any tomatoes. It's fall here in D.C., but next year maybe.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Sandy says, brush your dog's teeth with it. Let your pets have the Quip experience.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Thank you, Sandy. My dogs are in Los Angeles, so that's not really going to work out.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Derek says, hand over the Quip toothbrush to the mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder and see if they can jam with it.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Good idea, Derek. The Quip is quiet, unfortunately, so it might sound a little John Cage-y.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Ross wants to know if I can turn the Quip into a taser, but I think there's enough violence in the world, Ross.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And then, like, five of you in a row, some in these United States, one from Australia, one from Canada, all at once wanted to know if the quip would clean up tiling grout.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: I don't know, and I don't know if I can find out by tomorrow, but I'll do some serious thinking about what I should do with this quip, and I will get back to y'all.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): In the meantime, you can go to getquip.com slash explained if you're interested in the quip.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: They start at $25, your first refill is free, and after that they're $5 every three months.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Another thing I wanted to tell you about is the Weeds podcast from Vox.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: It features all of our smartest political reporters every week getting into the weeds on this week's political news, getting into the weeds on policy.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Matthew Iglesias is almost always there. Ezra Klein drops in. Sarah Cliff, Jane Koston, Dara Lind. All of your favorite Vox people can be found on the Weeds podcast.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: It's available wherever podcasts are sold. But the best thing about podcasts is they're totally free. Subscribe now.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): They have a great election special that came out yesterday that you can listen to to get started. Thanks.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Where did Jeff Sessions come from, Andrew?
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Sessions is from Alabama. He was a lawyer. He got a job in the Justice Department, U.S. Attorney's Office in Alabama in the 1970s, and then was named U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of Alabama under Reagan in the 80s.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): But where he really first came to national prominence was in 1986, when Reagan nominated him to be a district court judge.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: And the nomination blew up spectacularly. Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III. He was brought face to face with things he personally had said.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So what happened was that various colleagues of Sessions who had worked under him in the Justice Department in the past came forward and said he made various racial comments.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: That the NAACP and the Civil Liberties Union are un-American organizations. These comments that you could say about a commie organization or something, I may have said something like that in a general way that probably was wrong.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): He had joked that he thought that the KKK was fine until he learned that they smoked pot.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Sessions denied making some of the comments and said others were taken out of context. I am not a racist. I am not insensitive to blacks.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): It was really a spectacle of confirmation hearings at the time. Coretta Scott King wrote to the Senate Judiciary Committee and wrote that also his record was very concerning, saying that he had used the awesome powers of his office in a shabby attempt to intimidate and frighten elderly black voters.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: It's inconceivable to me that a person of this attitude is qualified to be a U.S. attorney, let alone a United States federal judge.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): It all ended up with the nomination failing. So he went into politics instead.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: I've heard the joke made that Sessions was too racist to be confirmed as a federal judge, but just racist enough to get elected as a United States senator.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Damn. He won the Senate election in 1996 and stayed there for the next two decades.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: So how's he as a senator? Sessions really did distinguish himself by staking out some very unusual for the chamber positions on two major issues, trade and immigration.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So on trade, Sessions was really a – for a Republican, quite skeptical of free trade agreements, wanted more protectionism, felt that American workers were getting a raw deal in these international trade deals.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: The really big one was immigration though because this is an issue that the Senate has been debating for well over a decade.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And every time it's come up, every time the issue is a big deal nationally, Sessions has been there, staking out a position so far to the right that it goes well beyond what almost any other Republican senator would have considered acceptable.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: In 2007, he dealt President George W. Bush a painful blow, helping defeat a bipartisan bill that would have created a guest worker program for undocumented immigrants.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): You've got to have this amnesty. You've got to give up and we'll have amnesty. And in exchange for that, you guys, we'll have a legal system that will work in the future. But it won't work.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Did he have any friends in the Senate? Was he well liked or was he this outlier sort of fringe character?
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): I think personally he was liked enough, but he wasn't entirely taken seriously because he was so far outside the mainstream.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: And he was not just anti-illegal immigration. He's kind of anti-all immigration. And he went pretty far out there in the early 2000s especially to make this case when very few others in the Republican Senate caucus would go that far.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And he found an important ally at the website Breitbart with Steve Bannon there. And they had similar views on this stuff.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Also in the Senate, Sessions had a staffer who has since become very well known, Stephen Miller. He was Sessions' top aide who was in charge of immigration policy.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): People have told me that it's like Sessions downloaded his brain to Stephen Miller and Stephen Miller uploaded his brain to Trump.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Sessions was a sort of John the Baptist figure preparing the way for Donald Trump.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So he and Bannon link up before Trump's a serious figure in the 2016 presidential election.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Sessions and Trump are both going on Breitbart and being interviewed by Bannon. They're kind of in the same circles.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): But I think it was a really important moment in the primary campaign when Sessions actually became the first U.S. senator to endorse Trump.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: I am pleased to endorse Donald Trump by the presidency of the United States This was a moment when the Republican establishment was still very much against him
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And it was a big moment. It was a validation from a sitting U.S. senator.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: And it was one of the most raucous Trump rallies I went to in 2015 and 2016.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): We can't have everything, can we, Mr. Trump? But I can tell you one thing. I think at this time, in my opinion, my best judgment, at this time in America's history, we need to make America great again.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: After Trump unexpectedly wins the presidency, Sessions kind of had his pick of jobs.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And the job he wanted was attorney general.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: And the reason he wanted it is because he really has cared about these policy issues, anti-immigration.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And it was Jeff Sessions' dream to be able to put his ideas, which were fringe in the Senate, into practice with the power of the Justice Department.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: And so he got the job of attorney general and almost immediately his tenure became consumed with controversy over the Russia investigation.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): So he and Trump have this sort of match made in heaven relationship up until basically the moment he becomes attorney general and then it all starts to fall apart.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Yeah, so what happened is that Sessions had met the Russian ambassador for a formal meeting once and had another incidental contact with him during the campaign.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): But when he was asked about it at his Senate confirmation hearing, Sessions said, I have never met with or had any conversation with any Russians or any foreign officials concerning any type of interference with any campaign or election in the United States.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: So he followed the guidance he had been given by the Justice Department ethics team, and he announced that he would recuse himself in March 2017.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): My staff recommended recusal. They said that since I had involvement with the campaign, I should not be involved in any campaign investigation.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: And that's where it all went wrong between him and Trump.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Trump was furious. After Sessions recused, Trump tried to pressure him to unrecuse himself.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: He publicly berated him. He made various private comments attacking him for recusing himself, saying he wouldn't protect him.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): All of that is of interest to Robert Mueller who was trying to establish a pattern or examining whether there's a pattern of the president obstructing justice.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: So did he get anything done in the Justice Department outside of immigration where his policies aligned pretty well with the president?
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Yeah, he basically tried to veer the department very far to the right on all sorts of issues from civil rights to drug policy to criminal justice in general.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: He's – when some republicans have been supporting criminal justice reform, he's been a very hard liner on that issue.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Voting rights too. He's been an extremely conservative attorney general.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: And what's kind of ironic about this is that under ordinary circumstances, without this Mueller investigation, liberals would be overjoyed if Jeff Sessions was fired.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): He'd be probably the person in the cabinet they most want to be fired.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: It's funny. Jeff Sessions, he's this guy who had real concrete ideas about policy, but those ideas were too fringe for the Senate.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): But those ideas get him to the highest echelons of American politics.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: They land him next to the president of the United States.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): And then he's immediately dumped. He's immediately ghosted by Donald Trump.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: I mean, will that be his legacy? Is that how he'll be remembered?
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): I mean, Sessions will have an extensive policy legacy.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: I mean, his immigration moves alone have been enough to upend the lives of many immigrants who are here.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Like, Sessions would never have gotten to where he is without Donald Trump.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: But once he did get to where he was, the top of the key federal cabinet department overseeing law enforcement in the United States, He really did make the most of it.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Sessions is gone.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Yeah, yeah. Donald Trump always gets what he wants.
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Sessions is gone.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: Yeah.
--:-- [Theme music starts playing]
--:-- Host (Sean Rameswaram): Support for Today Explained comes from Quip electric toothbrushes. They're approved by over 20,000 dental professionals. That's like a marathon's worth of dental professionals.
--:-- Andrew Prokrop: The Quip electric toothbrush starts at $25, and your first set of refills is free. And after that, they're about $5 every three months. Getquip.com slash explained.
