--:-- Noel King: Let's say you're young. Not a kid, but young. Let's say you realize now how much in the world isn't black and white. Let's say you still want to do something you think is right. And you're watching when Vladimir Putin invades a smaller, weaker country.
--:-- Noel King: Honestly, I didn't think Ukraine would stand 24 hours. But when I woke up and saw that the Ukrainian defense was holding, I figured that, you know, this is a pretty worthy cause. I don't think there's been a better example of good versus evil in a long time.
--:-- Noel King: Let's say you decide you want to be part of it. This is just basic. They're fighting to be free. And I can't think of a better cause that deserves help.
--:-- Noel King: Coming up on Today Explained, an American veteran fighting in the war in Ukraine.
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--:-- Noel King: Currently, we're over the border in Poland, getting some extra equipment and things like that. We crossed back over Tuesday, late Tuesday evening. Alexander Zuccoli is 23 years old. He's a former U.S. Army combat medic, and lately he's been shuttling back and forth between Ukraine and Poland.
--:-- Noel King: Tell me, Alexander, about the moment that you decided you were going to go and do this. What happened?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: I've been kind of keeping close eyes since 2014. I figured this would come. It reminded me a lot of the annexation of Austria by Nazi Germany. And I figured that the rest of the hammer would drop soon.
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: I remember in school when the 2014 annexation of Crimea began. We watched it in the classroom. I always wanted to be in the military as a kid. And when I enlisted at 18, I continued to keep an eye on it. I was 16 when they invaded Crimea. I was always super interested in World War II history, doing a little minor in history in college and stuff.
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: I just kind of saw it as something of, hey, this is a repeat. The quote that history repeats itself is ever so true when you watch it happen. So it just seemed like it would be the next big war of my generation.
--:-- Noel King: Did you join the Army after college?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: I dropped out of high school at 16. My mom was ill. I got my GED at 17, I believe. I did a couple years of community college. The day I turned 18, I walked in the Army recruiting office, signed. I left for basic in April of 2017. I turned 19 in Fort Hood.
--:-- Noel King: Did you serve in the conflicts in Iraq or Afghanistan?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: No, ma'am.
--:-- Noel King: At any point in your career in the U.S. Army, did you see combat action?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: Nope.
--:-- Noel King: You served on active duty for two years, I understand. Are you in the Guard or in the Reserves now?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: No, absolutely not. Anyone in IRR status or Reserves or Guard cannot come here.
--:-- Noel King: Why not?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: You are still beholden to the United States government. If you're in active ready reserves, you are still fulfilling a term of commitment to U.S. military. But if you are guard, reserves, IRR, please don't come. You're just you're going to get yourself hemmed up.
--:-- Noel King: Going to Poland, going to Ukraine, there is expense associated with that, I imagine, even if it's just a flight. How did you afford this trip?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: Uh, so for myself and for um a couple of the guys here a lot of our flights were sponsored by a gentleman named Anthony Capone. The man's the i don't know how to describe it i mean he he's he's shelled out his own money to get us here and to get us equipped and to get us into this fight to help so he paid for a lot of stuff a lot of us have a gofundme just to pay for like basic living expenses while we're gone like rent and things like that that i mean i think my flight would have been like 1200 bucks it's a lot of money i don't have that at the ready i'm still 23 my bank account so yeah he paid for it he's brought equipment over here body armor um i've been in constant contact and that's just excellent i can't speak highly enough of him he's enabled a lot of people to come over here and to help that wanted to help and wouldn't normally be able to
--:-- Anthony Capone: My name is Anthony Capone, and I'm employed as the president of a mobile medical company called DocGo. A little over 10 years ago, I went on my first real global traveling experience. I was trying to make it around the globe going Easterly without getting on a plane. And while I was traveling through Europe, I was in Warsaw and I wanted to get to Moscow to travel on the Trans-Siberian train. And the fastest route from Warsaw to Moscow is through Belarus And when I arrived there I did not realize I needed a transit visa I then received a pretty serious roughing up from a number of the soldiers there And then they proceeded to eventually, and somewhat thankfully, throw me back on a train back to Warsaw. And on my route from, on my train ride from Warsaw to Kiev, I met a Polish-Ukrainian. Ukrainian, told me stories about his own traveling, about him being helped by the Mujahideen when he was traveling through Afghanistan into Iran. And just, you know, story after story of how humanity had helped him while he was traveling. And it inspired me to keep going and not give up. And then I proceeded to stay with him for a few days in his place in Kiev. And that trip ended up becoming one of the most impactful parts of who I am today. And so I owe to him and to that experience a great deal.
--:-- Anthony Capone: You arrived in Poland first, is that right?
--:-- Anthony Capone: That's correct. Warsaw, where we rented a car, drove to Krakow. We linked in with some other Americans who were on the ground already and have been here for a couple weeks. We stayed for a couple days and then we left from Krakow to Kroos, parked our vehicle. We walked over the Medica pedestrian crossing where we picked up a Ukrainian contact who drove us into Lviv.
--:-- Anthony Capone: When we're in Medica, I just I can't stress this enough. It's it. It is a humanitarian crisis.
--:-- Anthony Capone: What did you see?
--:-- Anthony Capone: Malnourished children covered in mylar blankets. I think the biggest one stuck out to me was there was an older lady who was maybe in her 80s who was in a wheelchair wrapped in a blanket. Some of these people were waiting 36 hours to cross the border. Um, there's just not enough. It's not built for this kind of traffic. I don't know if those tents are heated. I'm going to assume they're probably not. Uh, you've got children, you've got pets. I mean, it's, I don't think it's, it can't handle the amount of people it's getting. I think Madika shows what this war is really doing.
--:-- Anthony Capone: What feeling is this evoking in you?
--:-- Anthony Capone: Anger. I think I speak for everyone here.
--:-- Noel King: We got really used during the Afghanistan-Iraq war to seeing civilian targets get hit by accident. This isn't that. This is targeted, purposeful shelling of civilians. They are making an attempt to cause Ukraine to submit by killing their populace. We watched them explicitly target civilian population centers.
--:-- Noel King: What did you see?
--:-- Anthony Capone: We were there. We got shelled at 10, 11, something like that. But we got to the shelters. We could hear it hitting. This is purposeful.
--:-- Noel King: Alexander, it cannot escape me that at this point in your career, you've never faced an actual enemy. You're a smart man. You're well-trained. But you've never fought an enemy. Do you feel that you're prepared for this?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: I do. Why? Well, I mean, even if we're ignoring the humanitarian crises and the war crimes in Ukraine, I think all of us feel an obligation to those back home because it's not going to end in Ukraine. A lot of the guys here haven't seen a formal combat action that are here anyway. It's just, you're going to find it one way or the other. I think we'd all rather get in front of it.
--:-- Noel King: Alexander, who do you report to? What uniform are you wearing?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: Well, uniforms are in short supply. Okay. We operate with the blessing of the Georgian National Legion. We met with their commander, and he's given us the green light.
--:-- Noel King: You're linking up with guys who have fought the Russians before. Is there something that you are currently wearing that identifies you as not a civilian?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: That's correct. So it would be the Georgian National Legion patch and the blue tape around the right arm.
--:-- Noel King: Alexander, have you considered what could happen to you if you are captured by the Russians?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: Absolutely. And we all have kind of made our piece of that. I think all of us understand that capture isn't really an option here.
--:-- Noel King: What does that mean?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: If we're captured by Russians, assuming we won't be just paraded in front of TASS, like a dog and pony show, none of us are going to get a happy ending because we're Americans. They've been targeting Americans. That's why they hit the Foreign Legion training facility.
--:-- Noel King: I don't want to be dark on your podcast. No, look, you should tell me what is going through your head. And what you're doing is extraordinary. I think it's best if we're just honest about what you envision happening.
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: Yep. Everyone's keeping emergency hand grenades. So if it comes to that, then that is what it is. I'd rather meet my own end at my hand than any kind of end given to me by the Russian Federation.
--:-- Noel King: Alexander, I think this question demands to be asked. Are you sure this is the right thing to do?
--:-- Alexander Zuccoli: Positive. No doubt in your mind?
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--:-- Noel King: Foreign fighters are getting to Ukraine over land. They're carpooling. They're flying in. They're paying their own way or they're getting someone else to pay for them. Some come alone. Some are in groups. All of this could equal chaos.
--:-- Dr. Lindsay Kahn: Dr. Lindsay Kahn, an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College in Newport, Rhode Island, who studies these types of situations, these are her views, not the U.S. Navy's, says the Ukrainians know this could go sideways. The Ukrainians are aware of this. So they have set up what they are calling an international legion.
--:-- Dr. Lindsay Kahn: The way that they are doing this is they have a website, in fact, and you are supposed to apply at a Ukrainian embassy or consulate. and they will vet you because they do not want extremists. They do not want ideologues. What they want is people with military or law enforcement experience and specifically combat experience because, frankly, other types of people, they're counterproductive.
--:-- Dr. Lindsay Kahn: Foreign fighters nearly always intensify and prolong conflicts, which makes sense if you think about it, because they generally join the weaker side. The appeal is frequently ideological, even for the veterans. you know, they're not going to go and fight in any old fight. They're going to go and fight in one that they think is worthwhile, which generally means if they're effective at all, that the fighting is intensified and prolonged, which generally has consequences for the civilian population, as well as, of course, the fighting forces.
--:-- Dr. Lindsay Kahn: One of the issues that you find is that people who went over with no particular ideological knit to pick may come back to their home countries after the conflict feeling much more what we would call politically efficacious or sort of motivated to be involved. But they now have a mindset that politics is changed by violence. And so they can become a threat to their home countries.
--:-- Dr. Lindsay Kahn: The number of people who come back from these and become domestic terrorists or extremists is fairly small. But obviously, a small number of terrorists and extremists can be damaging.
--:-- Dr. Lindsay Kahn: Pauline Moore did a study on the consequences of foreign fighter presence for human rights violations and violence against civilians. And she did find that in general, sort of on average, the presence of foreign fighters increased violence against civilians.
--:-- Dr. Lindsay Kahn: Whether this turns into a mini world war, I mean, my concern would be that it turns into an actual world war in that if Russia wants to escalate the conflict, it can use the presence of foreign fighters as a pretext. That's always a concern. It's one of the reasons that sometimes countries ban people from doing this.
--:-- Noel King: I think the emotional appeal of going to help the Ukrainians in this war is obviously huge. And not just emotional appeal, but a desire to maintain an international norm of not being successful when you invade a neighboring country.
--:-- Noel King: But there are a lot of aspects to the foreign fighter phenomenon that are dangerous, difficult, can have long-term consequences. And I think it's important that anyone who wants to help contribute to Ukraine's effort thinks about it long and hard before they do something like actually go to fight and really should only do that if they really know what they're doing and have skills that would actually help Ukraine.
--:-- Noel King: Today's episode was produced by Victoria Chamberlain and co-reported with McKenna Kelly of The Verge. We based our episode on a story McKenna wrote. It's called, A Tech Executive is Privately Funding Hundreds of Soldiers to Fight for Ukraine. Strongly recommend it. You can find it at theverge.com.
--:-- Noel King: The show is edited by Matt Collette, engineered by Afim Shapiro, and fact-checked by Laura Bullard. I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained. Thank you. Thank you.
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