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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ukraine, Ukraine explained. It's Ukraine explained. Depending on how you count it, today is day seven of President Trump's Senate impeachment trial.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And on day seven, the trial hasn't yet made a boatload of progress. As of this morning, they were still trying to get through opening statements.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But this week, President Trump's former national security mustache, John Bolton, waded into the debate in a way that might require that he's called as a witness against his former boss, President Trump.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Vox's Andrew Prokop has been glued to the television since this whole thing began. And today he's going to take us through the motions, starting with the start.
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--:-- Andrew Prokop: Hello. So the Democrats went first. What did they have to say?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So they took nearly 24 hours over three days to lay out their case.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: This was not an argument that was filled with new evidence or new bombshells, at least since last week.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There was reference to some of the Lev Parnas evidence that came out recently.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But mostly this was a summary of their findings in the House impeachment inquiry, a recap of some of the greatest hits of the testimony that they got there and the evidence that they discovered and putting all that together in an overall argument to the Republicans that Trump was very clearly guilty of abusing his power to pressure Ukraine to investigate the Bidens.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: in part by withholding aid in a White House meeting, and also that he obstructed Congress by doing this broad overall refusal to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry at all.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's funny you mentioned greatest hits because didn't someone quote Notorious B.I.G., making it the first time that Notorious B.I.G. was quoted in a Senate impeachment trial?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yes, that was Representative Hakeem Jeffries of New York.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we are here, sir, to follow the facts, apply the law, be guided by the Constitution, and present the truth to the American people.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: That is why we are here, Mr. Sekulow.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if you don't know, now you know.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So the Democrats didn't necessarily update very much of their status quo from what we saw in the House impeachment hearings.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, they think they had a strong case already.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: A spin that they put on it was that there were some gaps in the case and things they didn't know about, which they used to argue, this is why you should call witnesses.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And when this was happening in the House, there were tons of contentious moments.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Are contentious moments a thing in the Senate?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So we've gotten fewer heated exchanges in part because the opening arguments are formatted in such a way that the House impeachment managers have 24 hours of Senate floor time spread over three days to make their case without being interrupted by any questioning from senators or response from Trump's legal team.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: We did see a testy back and forth on the first night of the trial, which was a rules debate where there was some of that back and forth between Trump's team and the Democrats.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This was when Representative Jerry Nadler of New York suggested that the Senate would be engaged in a cover up if they didn't vote to hear witnesses.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Any senator who votes against Ambassador Bolton's testimony or any relevant testimony shows that he or she wants to be part of the cover up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What other possible reason is there to prohibit a relevant witness from testifying here?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Unfortunately, so far I've seen every Republican senator has shown that they want to be part of the cover up by voting against every document and witness proposed.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Didn't Chief Justice John Roberts also reprimand Jerry Nadler for saying that?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yeah, so Trump's team gave their own testy response, and then Chief Justice Roberts spoke up and made what's pretty much been his only direct comment on the trial proceedings so far.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In the 1905 Swain trial, a senator objected when one of the managers used the word petty fogging.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And the presiding officer said the word ought not to have been used.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't think we need to aspire to that high a standard, but I do think those addressing the Senate should remember where they are.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Cute.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So that's kind of how the Democrats opened up.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: How did they close things out on Friday?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So Schiff gave a long presentation, summing up everything they found, making the argument for witnesses, calling on Republican senators to represent moral courage.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And then he referenced a report from CBS News that the White House had supposedly warned Republican senators that vote against your president, vote against the president and your head will be on a pike.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yikes.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: This was some rather lurid imagery, and the Republican senators said they did not like this one bit.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In fact, as soon as Schiff said it, Susan Collins of Maine, one of the key swing votes of this entire thing, yelled out, that's not true.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Several other Republicans groaned.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Wait, she yelled that out in the Senate?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Even though you are technically not supposed to speak under pain of imprisonment, she apparently felt so strongly that she reacted in that way I surprised Chief Justice John Roberts didn't react to that.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Well this is pretty much the Senate house.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So you know there are technically a set of rules about that everyone has to be in their seats that no one is allowed to speak.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And those rules have been pretty frequently violated.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Senators have been chatting with each other, getting up, moving around, going outside to go on TV, all that.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I think they should be sent to prison, Andrew.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's what the rules say.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Got to follow the rules.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: OK, so that's the Democrats.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: How do President Trump's lawyers respond beginning on Saturday?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So President Trump himself was not at all happy that the impeachment managers used all three days of their allotted time.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He complained in a tweet that his opening arguments would have to start Saturday, which is Death Valley for TV ratings wise.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So what they ended up doing on Saturday was agreeing to a shortened session where Trump lawyer Jay Sekulow called this a trailer for the arguments that senators would see next week.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So they did a basic overview pointing out, among other things, that no witnesses called by the Democrats had actually testified that Donald Trump himself had personally tied withholding Ukraine aid to investigations.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So then on Monday, we had the whole lineup of Trump's defense team roster making their case on the floor of the Senate.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You had Ken Starr, who gave this lengthy presentation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The Senate is being called to sit as the high court of impeachment all too frequently.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Indeed, we're living in what I think can aptly be described as the age of impeachment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That was a bit confusing.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He seemed to be arguing that impeachment was bad and he was sort of an odd messenger for that, given his role in Bill Clinton's impeachment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But anyway, you also had Alan Dershowitz making a case based on his reading of the Constitution.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I will argue that our Constitution and its terms, high crimes and misdemeanors, do not encompass the two articles charging abuse of power and obstruction of Congress.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A lot of impeachment scholars disagree with him on this.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And then there was Jane Raskin, who we haven't seen too much of, but she was one of Trump's lawyers in the Mueller probe working with Rudy Giuliani and continues to represent Trump.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And she defended Rudy Giuliani on the floor of the Senate.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: She said that the House managers would have you believe that Mr. Giuliani is at the center of this controversy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They've anointed him the proxy villain of the tale, the leader of a rogue operation.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Their presentations were filled with ad hominem attacks and name-calling.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Cold-blooded political operative. Political bag man.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But I suggest to you that he's front and center in their narrative for one reason and one reason alone.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: To distract from the fact that the evidence does not support their claims.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And then there was also the former attorney general of Florida, Pam Bondi, who used her section of time to argue that the Bidens and their connection to the natural gas company Burisma really were corrupt and worthy of investigation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hunter Biden's decision to join Burisma raised flags almost immediately.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: One article from May 2014 stated the appointment of Joe Biden's son to the board of Ukrainian gas firm Burisma has raised eyebrows the world over.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So how did Trump do anything wrong if all he wanted was people to investigate corruption?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And we should mention that there is no evidence that Joe Biden did anything wrong or corrupt in the firing of a Ukrainian prosecutor that's at the center of this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Was this basically what you expected?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yeah, it's pretty much what we would have expected.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Trump's legal team has been surprisingly restrained, I would say.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I think they are tailoring their arguments to the Republican senators on the fence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're not putting on as wild of a show as the president himself might like to see.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But yeah, you know, there are obviously elements of sniping and nastiness.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But it's been overall relatively sober proceedings so far.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: One point that Trump's legal team did keep coming back to was that no witness called by Democrats had ever testified that they heard or saw Donald Trump personally link the blocking of military aid to Ukraine to his demand for investigations.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But all of that could change if a certain someone shows up?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yes, the problem with that argument is that we got news that there is a very well-known high-profile potential witness who very much wants to testify before the Senate who would say just that, that he, in a conversation with Trump, saw Trump link the aid to Ukraine to investigations.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that would be former National Security Advisor John Bolton.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: More with Andrew and John and Sean in a minute on Today Explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Okay, Andrew, remind me how John Bolton became the former national security advisor.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Why did he and President Trump break up again?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We all remember John Bolton, Republican, national security stalwart, superhawk, loves aggressive military action all over the world.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Trump brought him into the administration in March 2018 as national security advisor.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But they ended up clashing in that role.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He was very unhappy with Trump's relatively less interventionist instincts on Syria policy, on Afghanistan policy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he also, it turns out, had a bit of a problem with Trump's effort to block $391 million in military aid to Ukraine.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So due to some combination of all this, they had a falling out and Bolton, depending on who you asked, either resigned or was fired in early September, which happened to be just as this Ukraine scandal was breaking.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So this sort of will he or won't he question around John Bolton has been looming for months, right?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yes, Bolton has very clearly been a key witness who obviously had important information about Trump's conduct with regards to Ukraine.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Another witness who was on the National Security Council staff, Fiona Hill, testified that...
--:-- Andrew Prokop: That Ambassador Bolton wanted me to go to the lawyers, to John Eisenberg, our senior counsel for the National Security Council, to basically say, you tell Eisenberg, Ambassador Bolton told me, that I am not part of this whatever drug deal that Mulvaney and Sondland are cooking up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that Bolton referred to Rudy Giuliani as a live grenade who is going to blow everybody up.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yeah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So he was clearly against this.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: We also heard some testimony from another former National Security Council aide, Tim Morrison, who said that Bolton had met privately with Trump on the issue of Ukraine aid.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So the House asked Bolton to show up for a voluntary deposition, and he refused.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: There was this court challenge going on regarding another one of his aides who was fighting a subpoena in court.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Bolton said he wanted to see how that lawsuit played out before agreeing to testify.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But he announced earlier this month that if the Senate subpoenas him, he will testify.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He will not fight it in court.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And this was a pretty big surprise in Washington and was taken as a suggestion that he very much wants to tell his story.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Why the sudden change of mustache?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Perhaps not coincidentally, he has been writing a book as well, which tells his story.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that book now seems to be finished and will be coming out soon.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And is leaking out to members of the press.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yes, so what really changed things was on Sunday night when the New York Times reported on the contents of Bolton's manuscript.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And so this is our first account of Bolton's side of the story.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what our reporting showed is that it takes on the central defense of the Trump impeachment.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The president's lawyers have repeatedly said that there was no tie between the military aid and the investigations that the president saw.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what he said was that he had a meeting with Trump in August where he urged Trump to lift the hold on military aid for Ukraine.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And Trump said he didn't want to do that until Ukraine handed over material they had related to investigations into the Bidens and investigations of supporters of Hillary Clinton, who supposedly, in Trump's view, had something to do with the Russia investigation that bedeviled him for so long.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So this is a big deal because no other witness called by Democrats, as Trump's team pointed out, said they heard this from Trump's own mouth directly.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And it would take away one of the key elements of Trump's defense.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Which is a defense that his attorneys continue to make in the Senate right now in this trial.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yes, the day after the Bolton news came out, Jay Sekulow went to the floor of the Senate and repeated the assertion that not a single witness testified that the president himself said that there was any connection between any investigation and security assistance, a presidential meeting, or anything else.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Which basically seemed to be thumbing his nose at the Senate and almost daring them to call the person who we now know seems to be willing to testify the exact opposite.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The timing of this manuscript being leaked and even this book being written is kind of incredible, right?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yeah, so Bolton wrote this remarkably quickly.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He struck the deal in November.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's been some speculation that he was even writing this book while he was working as national security advisor.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: In any case, the Bolton PR team quickly responded to the New York Times story by posting the Amazon page for Bolton's book, which they continually mention in statements about it, is called The Room Where It Happened, a reference to Hamilton, and emphasizing that it will be on sale this March.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, you know, there's been a lot of speculation that all Bolton really cares about is hyping up his book and making a ton of money from it.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Shout outs to The Onion for their headline. Bolton pledges to donate all proceeds from book towards killing Iranians.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's pretty dark.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yeah, sorry.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But it was interesting that somehow or other information about this book made its way to the New York Times just as the Senate is about to decide on this crucial question of whether to call witnesses for the trial.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And the leak makes it indisputably clear that Bolton has very relevant information that would be very important to the case.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that it would certainly seem that a body holding a trial over this would want to get his sworn testimony about this.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So how is all the Trump machinery responding to this?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: President Trump himself his pals over at Fox News who heretofore have loved John Bolton though Former Fox News commentator John Bolton that is
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So Trump tweeted late Sunday night I never told John Bolton that the aid to Ukraine was tied to investigations into Democrats, including the Bidens.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In fact, he never complained about this at the time of his very public termination.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: If John Bolton said this, it was only to sell a book.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I believe Lou Dobbs on Fox Business put up various slides showing Bolton had the same agents for his book as Comey did.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So, you know, Bolton, Comey, they're all working together against Trump and trying to smear him in the press and blah, blah, blah.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: John Bolton himself has been reduced to a tool for the radical dims in the deep state with his allegation that the president once told him that the aid to the Ukraine was entirely dependent on whether or not Mr. Zelensky carried out investigations of his political opponents.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But we've seen in the larger conservative world, we've seen an interesting divide between commentators and outlets who have been calling Bolton a liar, calling him even a warmonger.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then others who, based on their long association with and knowledge of John Bolton, who say that, well, you know, he probably wouldn't be lying about this.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: If you want a sense of how big the news is that we've heard in the last 12 hours, 14 hours, just listen to the Trump supporters spitting like crazy that it isn't big news and you get a sense that this is really an important development in this case.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Several commentators from National Review spoke out on Monday saying that, you know, they take Bolton's account seriously and they think it's important and they want to hear it.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: They're not going to accept a dismissal of Bolton as just part of the deep state anti-Trump conspiracy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's kind of incredible to think that John Bolton could be viewed as a tool for the left considering his history with the left and his disdain for the left.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Well, if you go against the dear leader, you will have to be turned into public enemy number one.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So where does this leave the Senate trial?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Is Bolton all but sure to show up now with these revelations that contradict so many of the arguments that the president's defense team is making?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, that is up to the Republican Senate majority.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And this question about witnesses, they put it off when the trial began because there was a small but still big enough group of Republican senators who were not prepared to immediately say there should be no witnesses.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They wanted to keep the option open as the trial went forward.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And before the Bolton news broke, it seemed that they weren't making much progress.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But then Bolton's news changed the dynamics a bit.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And there was definitely some chaos behind the scenes in the Senate on Monday.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Mitt Romney publicly proclaimed that I think it's increasingly likely that other Republicans will join those of us who think we should hear from John Bolton.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And whether there are other witnesses and documents, well, that's another matter.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But I think John Bolton's relevance to our decision has become increasingly clear.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Do you think the matter?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Who of your colleagues have indicated that to you?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: I'm not going to speak for any other Republican senators.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But they have.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: You've had conversations?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I have spoken with others who've pined upon this as well.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He thinks his case has gotten stronger.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He made the case in private to Republican senators at their lunch.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: He has some names we haven't really heard before in this discussion, like Pat Toomey of Pennsylvania brought up the possibility of doing a one-for-one trade where Democrats would get to call one witness and Trump would get to call one witness.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In that case, who would call John Bolton?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The Democrats?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Incredible.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Yes, I think he very much does want to testify.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He could have just kept quiet throughout this whole thing.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: But in early January, he gave that public statement saying that he would testify if the Senate subpoenaed him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And if the votes do end up being there to call witnesses, I think McConnell would put a lot of pressure on Trump to just rip off the Band-Aid, let Bolton testify.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: They're nowhere close to the two-thirds vote in the Senate that would be needed to remove him from office.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So what's the worst that could happen?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So even if John Bolton rolls into the Senate, let's say, I don't know, next week, and says there was a quid pro quo, I was in the room where it happened, you still think President Trump's going to be acquitted?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Absolutely.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Republicans have made their peace with defending Trump at this point.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Trump continues to remain overwhelmingly popular with Republican voters.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So Republican senators see their future careers and the GOP's performance in 2020 as yoked to Donald Trump.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they're not going to rock that boat.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: So much for the legitimacy of the trial.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Who says it has any legitimacy?
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The question was asked by Mr. Sekulow.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: As he opened before this distinguished fight.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: Why, why, why are we here?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Let me see if I can just posit an answer to that question.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: We are here, sir, because President Trump pressured a foreign government to target an American citizen for political and personal gain.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We are here, sir, because President Trump solicited foreign interference in the 2020 election and corrupted our democracy.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: We are here, sir, because President Trump withheld $391 million in military aid from a vulnerable Ukraine without justification in a manner that has been deemed unlawful.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We are here, sir, because President Donald Trump elevated his personal political interests and subordinated the national security interests of the United States of America.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: We are here, sir, because President Trump corruptly abused his power and then he tried to cover it up.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we are here, sir, to follow the facts, apply the law, be guided by the Constitution, and present the truth to the American people.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: The truth to the American people.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That is why we are here, Mr. Sekulow.
--:-- Andrew Prokop: And if you don't know, now you know.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Goodbye.
