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--:-- Host: I brought it up to you. I was like, well, what would you think if we moved in together? People who haven't bought yet, like me, feel like they may never be able to.
--:-- Host: Promotership? Overrated. That's my take. I think they're here all right.
--:-- Host: Oh, hi. Hi. The other day, my producer Kelly and I went to a quiet residential neighborhood in D.C. to visit NPR host Aisha Roscoe. Yes, so I just picked them up from school. It's a two-story white and brick home with a front and backyard and pumpkins out on the porch. Inside, it's shoes off, homework out, Aisha sprinkling Old Bay on salmon for dinner.
--:-- Host: I need food. I can be a little skeptical of the American dream, but honestly, when I look at Aisha, she's living it. She has a great job, an active social life, and she lives in her own home that's full of people she cares about and that care for her. And the key to it all? Her best friend.
--:-- Host: That's Jasmine Melvin. She and Aisha met back in college when they both worked at the student newspaper. Flash forward 15 years, and between the two of them, they have five kids ages 7 to 12. and they all live under the same roof.
--:-- Host: We just come in, I make the food. I'm John Golan Hill, and this week on Explained to Me from Vox, we're rethinking the way we live. So you may have noticed that the housing market still sucks. That means a lot of us are trying new things, whether it's moving in with your best friend, using old housing in new ways, or bypassing that white picket fence altogether.
--:-- Host: Our options have changed, and we're changing with them. For Jasmine and Aisha, their decision to blend their families wasn't just a practical one. It was financial, too. They decided to buy that house together.
--:-- Jasmine Melvin: We were both going through this transition in our lives. We had both gotten divorced. We were trying to get our kids together and do all of that on our own, which is really hard. And I think we both realized like we could use some support but it's hard even when you want to help each other out when one friend is like 40 minutes away or 30 minutes away it's like and you have kids they might as well be on the other side of the planet.
--:-- Jasmine Melvin: We would always say even when we were married like wouldn't it be great if we were next door neighbors or whatever it's like our next houses need to be beside each other be so much easier and the kids at the same school that's a big thing when the kids are at the same school the schedules just sync up so much better yeah so then I think I brought it up to you and it's like well what would you think if we moved in together and I was like see I've been thinking the same thing but I thought you would think I was crazy but then dc prices we was like we were going to the open houses and seeing what we want yes and you know that would be easier with combining our budget yeah and going in on it together yeah
--:-- Jasmine Melvin: How do you all figure out the division of labor like I don't know I think I mean we're both moms so the mentality is it's just who's there and we get it done yeah and then once we're home together I guess we play to our strengths um Aisha gets home a little earlier with the kids than I do so she'll start dinner then when I get home then I can start helping the kids with homework you know in a situation like this you do have to kind of go with the flow it can't be like I if you're the type of person who can't have anything out of place you you can't really this is not gonna work and I mean with kids I don't know how that works anyway
--:-- Jasmine Melvin: And then I think because we're not romantically involved you don't have that like you know do you love me do you respect me do you like all of that stuff that comes along with it or the and then and then the traditional gender roles like oh you have to do the cooking and cleaning and I'll you know take out the trash it all gets we all have to do it yeah it has to get done so we figure out how to get it done without all the emotional stuff tied to it
--:-- Jasmine Melvin: When you first told people about this arrangement what's the reaction I think positive like oh that's so interesting yeah a lot of people wrap their head around it but then they're like that's such a good idea yeah and I think people were like you know a lot of people were like I always wanted to do that with my best friend or whatever I do think like when it was like okay we're gonna buy a house together I think that was a little more like okay are you sure about that because that is a big investment to do together but I mean like you know I've said this before it's like you know if you've you know we've been best friends for like 15 years I think it's more than 15 years actually yeah um but it's like if I met a man and I fall in love we you know in two years we could be you know have buying houses having a baby doing all you know everything jointly right and no one would look no one would bat an eye at that right Like and you've known this person for two years but because you're romantically together people feel like oh that makes sense
--:-- Jasmine Melvin: And so when I looked at that I was like well whoever I would end up with I wouldn't know them nearly as well as I know Jasmine so why would I feel more comfortable doing that with them versus buying a house with someone who I've been through thick and thin with seen in crises done all this stuff with
--:-- Jasmine Melvin: Have there been any growing pains I think with the kids the kids yeah with the kids because they have to get used they i mean they know each other they've grown up since they were newborn since they were in utero yes they were with each other but living together is different yeah yeah what was it like telling them how did they respond when it was like okay we're all gonna be living in a house together initially it was all excitement is basically sleep over every night yes yeah because that's the thing when we just I mean look they fight like cats and dogs but they fight like brothers and sisters right like they fight like siblings but then they get over it pretty quickly they get over it really quickly you know you have one saying oh get out of my room get out of my room I guarantee you if we go look where they're all out they're all sitting on the couch together side by side trying to make room all playing together yeah or it's like I don't want to be around any of you as I sit where everyone is there are lots of rooms in this house there are lots of places you could go I don't want to be around you it's like yeah
--:-- Jasmine Melvin: What's it like combining finances with your friend because I feel like money is the thing where you know whether it's romantic family friends money is a thing that can make every relationship stressful what has that been like and what's that like yeah well I think it helps that we are both financially stable on our own yes yeah we're not like pinching every penny if I watching all the kids I may order them pizza order them McDonald I not hey can you cash at me your kids part yeah because I know she pick it up yeah the next time when she getting things for my kids and my thing is always and I think we we have both always been like this our whole friendship if I eat you eat if I got it you gonna you gonna have it we that's the way we get down and so it's not like it's not this thing where we're like nickel and diming each other
--:-- Jasmine Melvin: What has this experience given you that the quote-unquote traditional living experience doesn't I'd say just kind of building on the friendship and motherhood kind of all together and I also think just like being able to bond in a way that isn't surrounded with like romance right like cause I love romance y'all know look it's a problem I am like a romance I am so romantic are you a lover girl I am a lover girl it's sad but that comes with its own set of things but it can be stressful and I think like not having that and being able to build a bond that's really based on love and respect and trust I know this is my friend I know this is my sister I know we good and I know people always talk about chosen family but then it's really you know rubber meets the road when you're like bringing your kids into it right it's interesting because I think a lot of the time we do think of like romantic relationships like oh we're gonna take it to the next level but oh you can take your friendships to the next level yeah yeah like yeah that's the thing you can take your friendship to the next level like I said it's a unique situation because we didn't think we was both gonna be divorced pushing forward that was not that was not our plan for life but god said look but you still have another life that you can build right like it didn't work out the way you thought it would but it can still work out in a different way
--:-- Host: Okay so the plan has changed for a lot of us but could that mean that we actually have more options that's next
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--:-- Host: I'm JQ and we're back with Explain It To Me. When you live with your best friend and her kids, you can share meals and drop-offs and homework. That was a big draw for Aisha and Jasmine. But it was also a way to afford the kind of space they wanted to live in. The housing market seems to be worse than ever. I wanted to know why and what other alternatives might be out there. So I called up my colleague.
--:-- Rachel Cohen-Booth: Hi, I'm Rachel Cohen-Booth. I am a senior policy correspondent at Vox.com. Rachel covers housing, and she says that there are a lot of things at play when it comes to cost. It's really expensive. It's getting even more expensive with tariffs, frankly. But sort of a quick, dirty overview. housing prices soared during the pandemic when interest rates were at historic lows. Price growth has slowed a lot since then, but the prices aren't actually falling. And that's in large part because mortgage rates have more than doubled. They've been at 6% to 7% for a while now. And so that basically adds up to this kind of freeze in the market where home sales are way down and the people who did buy a house a couple years ago are basically locked in. We knew we got a killer deal and that we were super lucky. We definitely could not afford to buy our house now. I will not give up this house or the rate at which I got the money. And people who haven't bought yet, like me, feel like they may never be able to.
--:-- Rachel Cohen-Booth: So all of that pressure is really pushing people to think differently about housing. Okay, Rachel, We are both renters and probably will be for the foreseeable future. I actually just moved into a new place, and one of the big reasons I chose it is that the rent is considerably cheaper than where I was. How are other people in our shoes picking where to live?
--:-- Rachel Cohen-Booth: So I think the primary thing people are looking for is affordability. They're looking for just a house that fits their budget, and that is definitely steering people in various directions. But some people are also, you know, don't want to live alone. They want to find community. They want to find housing in bustling areas with lots of amenities and people around them. And so two models that I've covered that I think are really interesting. One is adult dorm rooms, which is a sort of an older idea that's now coming back in this new form. And another one I'd refer to as intergenerational home sharing. I want to dig more into both of these. Let's talk about adult dorms first. What is that? It sounds funny, but it's a serious idea. And potentially this kind of two birds, one stone situation.
--:-- Rachel Cohen-Booth: Cities are short millions of homes. There's this huge housing shortage. Aw, man. I'm never going to be able to afford the kind of place I want. And at the same time, office buildings are sitting empty after the pandemic, after the shift to remote work. At least I don't have to go to the office anymore. I covered this research from Pew and this architecture firm Gensler that tries to tackle both problems at once by turning all these vacant office buildings into adult style dorm rooms. Living in the office? I don't know. The model is like instead of these full private units where everyone has their own bathroom, each floor would share bathrooms like on an office building. And you'd have, you know, a bed, a desk, a mini fridge, but then shared bathrooms and shared kitchens and shared living spaces with the TV. And so that makes it a lot cheaper because it could cut construction costs by up to a third. More money for avocado toast. Let's go. And so we seeing this already now in cities like the researchers looked at places like Denver and Seattle and Minneapolis as kind of prime candidates. And these are places with high rents and high vacancy rates and relatively flexible zoning laws.
--:-- Rachel Cohen-Booth: I can hear the potential in this. You know, I think of like me when I just graduated from college. Or you're like a retiring, you know, grandmother and you want to downsize and be near your grandkids in the cities or something. Yeah. And like it does make sense. But I think there are also some elements that probably seem bleak to some people. I mean, this isn't like you're going outside to the bathroom. A lot of people don't mind sharing if it could mean hundreds of dollars, cheaper of rent a month. So that's sort of the thinking. Everyone will kind of make their own calculations as long as it's not unsafe. OK, got it. I want to know about the other option you mentioned. And what's intergenerational sharing?
--:-- Rachel Cohen-Booth: Right now, these stats kind of blew my mind. About 60% of U.S. homes have at least one spare bedroom. And among empty nesters, there are roughly 21 million houses with two empty bedrooms or more. So it's basically this idea of matching older homeowners who have extra space with younger renters who need affordable housing. And it's kind of this way to, like, unlock these millions of empty bedrooms that are just sitting unused right now across the country. So, you know, these empty bedrooms are starting to look a lot more attractive, both to younger people, but also to older people who could use a little bit of help around their big houses. How does it work? Do you just like head to the closest pickleball court and find the nicest person and say, hey, can I live with you?
--:-- Rachel Cohen-Booth: There's like a lot of different models that are coming up. Some are sort of state coordinated models. Some are private companies. One company I covered is called Nestorly. Nestorly, an award-winning service, tackles this issue by connecting high-quality renters to older adults with space in their home. They use like an Airbnb situation where a homeowner can make a profile, a younger renter can make a profile. You guys have this like secure video chat over the app to meet each other. And then you have like a lease agreement type thing through their app. City by city, Nestorly provides the tools and services needed to unlock this win-win housing solution. There is a lot of concern. You know, senior scams are a big thing. A lot of people don't necessarily want strangers coming into their home. So there needs to be a lot of care in how these lease agreements are set up and like making sure everyone feels comfortable and making sure you feel comfortable being able to end the lease. But it's not a traditional sort of arrangement that we're so used to right now.
--:-- Rachel Cohen-Booth: It sounds like there are, you know, some interesting new options out there. But I do notice that all of these options involve renting. Yeah, that's right. Co-living spaces, home sharing, they are different kinds of renting. And honestly, I think more people are going to be, including me, renting for the indefinite future. It's just becoming the new normal. And I think it's something that we're going to have to get used to.
--:-- Host: Coming up, what if renting isn't the problem? Why maybe we shouldn't have gotten used to home buying in the first place.
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--:-- Host: We're back. This is Explained It to Me. I'm JQ. there's one more person I wanted to talk to today and that's Jerusalem Dimsis. She's a Vox alum and now she's the editor-in-chief at the Argument magazine. And when it comes to how we live she has a hot take. Very hot, very hot. Home ownership, overrated. That's my take. Take it or leave it. Take it or leave it, JQ. Okay, that's spicy, especially in America. Explain why you've come to this. Like, what makes you say that?
--:-- Jerusalem Dimsis: I mean, I'm a renter. And I love being a renter. I love the freedom of renting. I love being able to move when I want to move. I love not feeling that when something breaks, that it's on the back of my head constantly, that it's my responsibility to, like, make sure the roof is okay and make sure the fridge isn't going to break. Like, there's so much stress associated with owning things. And a house is a massive asset. Even if you're, like, an entry-level homebuyer, where you have, like, a $200,000, $300,000, $400,000 house, like, that's a lot of money. And if it goes wrong, that's your biggest asset. And for most of your life, you're just paying a lot of money for this asset that at any moment could cause you like 10x the amount of grief.
--:-- Jerusalem Dimsis: And so to me, I think it's not that homeownership is never a good idea for anyone. That's obviously not true. There are a lot of people who benefit from it and who enjoy getting to have the freedom of, you know, renovating their home and making it exactly how they want it. But I think that we overhype the financial benefits like way too much. Can you say more about that like what are the financial benefits that we're told it has and what are the realities?
--:-- Jerusalem Dimsis: I think there are basically two financial benefits we're told about one is the forced savings mechanism so if you're gonna pay your rent or you're gonna pay for shelter in some way it's either gonna be rent or to a mortgage and so if you're gonna be forced to save it into a house where like that value eventually is yours the end of the day versus you're giving it to a landlord and then you never see it again like that's one which is obviously true. But the second is that the return on that investment is going to be great. And that's just like not guaranteed at all There so many things that have to happen for the return on your investment in a house to be worth it First you have to be able to hold on to that house through bad times And that really difficult A lot of people the Great Recession for instance or when you lose a job you have a medical emergency you have to move because your kids have to go to a different school whatever it is have to sell their house at a time that's not financially opportune for them.
--:-- Jerusalem Dimsis: So you're selling at a time when maybe interest rates are really high so you're giving up a low interest rate or selling at a lower price maybe than you bought for it or you're not even making that much money on top of what you were able to sell for it. But secondly, owning a home is often more expensive than renting. I've never told anyone this before. As a mortgage broker, I actually rent my apartment. A lot of people don't recognize the amount of interest that you are accumulating over a 30-year mortgage. And that's before you think about property taxes, insurance, needing a new HVAC in the next five years, needing a new roof in the next 10 years. And you don't get maintenance costs back. That's just keeping it the same. That's just you throw away your money constantly in homeownership.
--:-- Jerusalem Dimsis: So all that extra money that you could use to be investing in the stock market, investing in other kinds of like, you know, large index funds, that kind of investment is almost guaranteed to be higher than what you're going to get from investing in your house. How did we get to this point where it's like, OK, you're going to, quote unquote, build wealth. A house is how you do that. A house is the way you do that. The history of this is quite psychological and it is quite political. The idea that owning a house gives you a bigger stake in your community is a very conservative idea that comes about from the sense that like renters are transient. They're immigrants. They're young. They have no stake in their community. If you rent, then you're not going to you're going to treat your community badly. You'll like put trash on the ground or you'll be a bad influence.
--:-- Jerusalem Dimsis: And so a very large anti-renter attitude really gets sparked in the United States as we see high levels of immigration coming into this country in the early 1900s is when we're really seeing that come to fruition. And then you see an attempt to make everyone have a real stake. The ownership society becomes something people really, really care about. And, you know, it becomes psychologically and legally codified in the United States' self-conception of what it means to be a good, upstanding citizen is that you own your house. You have this white picket fence and you live in a place where the land is yours.
--:-- Jerusalem Dimsis: I don't even think that that's true. Like I'm a renter and because I'm a renter, it means I can live in a nicer area than I could otherwise afford. I live in a part of Northwest D.C. that the house that I'm living in, there's just like absolutely no way that my husband and I could afford it if we had to buy that house. It's just like absurd to us to even imagine that happening. And so what that means is like I'm much closer to my friends. I can he is able to bike very easily to his close friends that live nearby. Like we're able to visit his parents very easily. I can get to my work really easy. A lot of my friends can easily access my house.
--:-- Jerusalem Dimsis: A lot of people, when they have to buy a house for the first time, sacrifice on location. They sacrifice the location close to their family and friends in order to get closer to a house that they can afford at a size that they want, at the place that they want, whatever it is that they're trying to get at. And what that means is like often, eventually, maybe later on in life, you've become very rooted. But the act of buying a home usually actually moves you out of the community that you're already living in because that's what happens when you have to change price points.
--:-- Jerusalem Dimsis: Yeah, you know, intellectually, I really get your case, but I think emotionally, it's hard for some people to let go of that dream of owning. And I think for most Americans, buying a home is a big part of what it means to be an adult and have made it. I guess beyond that financial investment, what do you think is going on there? Why is home ownership so wrapped up in our identities as Americans?
--:-- Jerusalem Dimsis: To me, I think that home ownership was always a proxy for freedom. So similarly to car ownership and like being able to drive on the open road, these things are quintessentially American in a good way of like you want freedom. You want freedom from a boss, you know, the ability to move around at will. Like all these things are really, really great. And like I have felt like how do you achieve that in a way that does not lock people into like financially risky assets is monetary. Like, people need economic freedom. They need access to good jobs that pay well. They need access to a government that's going to hold people accountable if they exploit tenants or workers.
--:-- Jerusalem Dimsis: So to me, the American dream is always freedom. We've just have always pushed this through homeownership. And my rejoinder to that is that I don't think homeownership is freedom for everyone. I don't feel free at the idea of owning an asset that that's that risky. Like, I know people who are underwater on their mortgages right now. And it's just like, is that freedom? Like, no, economic freedom is freedom. And so how we get there is a matter of policy and as a matter of technocratic debate. But I think we should reorient ourselves towards that rather than ownership in particular.
--:-- Host: Is there a question you have about the world we live in? Something you want explained? On this show, we've explained things like why dating is so hard now and how to pick your insurance and what's up with all those scammy texts. What do you want to know more about? Give us a call. 1-800-618-8545. Or you can email us at askvox at vox.com. We can't do it without you.
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--:-- Host: This episode was produced by Miles Bryan and Kelly Wessinger. It was edited by Jenny Lawton and fact-checked by Melissa Hirsch. Our executive producer is Miranda Kennedy, and it was engineered by Adrienne Lilly. This story was supported by a grant from Arnold Ventures. Vox had full discretion over the content of this reporting. I'm your host, John Glenn Hill. Thank you so much for listening. I'll talk to you soon. Bye! Thank you.
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