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--:-- Noel King: A 21-year-old airman with the Massachusetts Air National Guard who's accused of leaking classified documents to his friends on the Internet was charged today under the Espionage Act.
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--:-- Noel King: The charges are unauthorized retention and transmission of national defense information and unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material.
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--:-- Noel King: The Department of Justice says Jack Teixeira, who went by Jack the Dripper on Discord, started leaking classified information months ago before the government caught on, possibly as late as this week.
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--:-- Noel King: Coming up on Today Explained, in a world in which a lot of us believe the government is able to keep tabs on us, why did it take so long for the government to realize what was happening to its private stuff in the most public place, the Internet?
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Noel King: Support for Today Explained comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. Fall is here. Might be time to find some nice new pieces you can wear again and again.
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--:-- Noel King: Support for this show comes from Strawberry.me. Be honest. Are you happy with your job? Or are you stuck in one you've outgrown? Or never wanted in the first place?
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--:-- Noel King: It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King with Erin Banco.
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--:-- Erin Banco: Banco. Erin covers intelligence for Politico, and she's been following the path of the leaked government documents.
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--:-- Noel King: So it appears that these first documents appeared on a social media platform called Discord, which is essentially just another sort of messaging social media platform.
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--:-- Erin Banco: And we're still learning sort of the extent to which they and frequency with which they were posted.
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--:-- Noel King: But it appears that last year is when they first began to appear.
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--:-- Erin Banco: And tell me about their trajectory.
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--:-- Noel King: I I understand they first appeared in one Discord server, then they kind of spread.
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--:-- Erin Banco: That's right. So what we know is that there was a very small Discord channel server called Thug Shaker Central.
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--:-- Erin Banco: There were about 20 to 25 people that were members of this group, mostly younger men, gamers, people who were really into video games, other people who said they really liked guns, mostly conservative, Republican, right wing.
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--:-- Erin Banco: And that is where those documents first appeared.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Noel King: It wasn't until months later that one of the members of that original group then reposted the images to a second Discord server.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: And then from there, those images then appeared even more widespread on other social media apps like Telegram and Twitter.
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--:-- Noel King: What was in the documents? What do they say?
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--:-- Erin Banco: So the documents, as I've seen them and as they've been reported, are pretty broad in the sense that they touch on a lot of different areas, but primarily they deal with the war in Ukraine.
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--:-- Erin Banco: These documents contain incredibly sensitive information about Ukrainian troop movements, strengths and weaknesses, including weaknesses in their air defenses, as well as really important and new information about just how far the U.S. intelligence community has been able to go in penetrating the Russian defense ministry as well.
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--:-- Erin Banco: But then they also deal with intelligence reporting from countries that span the globe, really, from the Middle East to China to other parts of Asia.
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--:-- Erin Banco: Other documents show the extent of U.S. spying operations on South Korea and Israel, including, with relation to South Korea, a conversation between two senior South Korean national security officials about their concerns over a U.S. request for ammunition that would be sent to Ukraine.
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--:-- Erin Banco: You know, I'm an intelligence reporter, so I see some of this stuff a lot.
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--:-- Erin Banco: And I can say that the documents are extremely sensitive in the sense that they really lay out the extent to which the U.S. spies on its adversaries, but also on its allies.
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--:-- Erin Banco: It contains very detailed information about really current day global events.
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--:-- Noel King: The documents are already prompting allies to respond.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pushing back after one document suggested leaders of Israel's spy agency had encouraged protests against his proposed judicial reforms.
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--:-- Noel King: I think that's what makes these documents sort of shocking is that, you know, in past leaks we've seen, you know, documents that have been held in servers for years leaked out to the press.
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--:-- Erin Banco: But these documents really talk about very real national security issues that are happening in real time.
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--:-- Noel King: You said they appeared on Discord late last year.
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--:-- Erin Banco: I don't think this became a news story until this month.
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--:-- Noel King: At what point did American authorities say, we have a problem here, guys?
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--:-- Erin Banco: The Washington Post has actually reported that the documents, or transcripts of the documents at least, appeared starting all the way back in the summer of 2022.
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--:-- Erin Banco: The tranche that I've seen didn't show up online until probably January.
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--:-- Erin Banco: But we do know from this Washington Post reporting that the leak spanned perhaps all the way back to the summer of 2022.
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--:-- Noel King: Wow. Do we know why it took that long?
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--:-- Erin Banco: I think there are a lot of questions about why the government didn't know that these documents were spreading online.
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--:-- Erin Banco: I think it fair to assume that the documents were held within this original Discord channel pretty tightly.
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--:-- Erin Banco: We seen interviews and reporting to suggest that the members of this original server basically had a pact not to post the images elsewhere not to share them with anyone
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--:-- Erin Banco: And it's not like the government has an office that just is responsible for prowling the Internet for leaked classified documents, right?
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--:-- Erin Banco: The government maintains it doesn't spy on Americans, on its own citizens.
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--:-- Erin Banco: There are limitations about the extent to which government agencies can even go on to social media and look at users' profiles if there's no specific threat or open, you know, law enforcement case.
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--:-- Noel King: But I do think that we'll start to see members of Congress on Capitol Hill when they return next week begin to ask questions about whether or not we need to think through this a little bit more about how we can identify potential illegal activity that's happening online if, you know, it doesn't fall squarely into, for example, the terrorism bucket or the threatening acts of violence bucket.
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--:-- Erin Banco: It's so interesting because I think a lot of us think, oh, the government is watching us all the time.
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--:-- Erin Banco: They know what we're doing. And here we have proof that, no, perhaps they aren't and they don't.
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--:-- Noel King: So the authorities find the documents online.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: It's very clear that someone has leaked them.
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--:-- Noel King: Do they then start looking for the leaker or the leakers immediately?
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--:-- Erin Banco: From what I can tell, a lot of the information that was first made available about the leak was from open source information.
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--:-- Erin Banco: So Bellingcat, which is a really well-known research and journalism organization, did a pretty big investigation after the leak happened, outlining how researchers had basically found this original Discord server, talked to members on the server.
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--:-- Erin Banco: There was about three other members in the voice chat with me when I first found out that these were public, made public.
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--:-- Erin Banco: It felt like my heart was beating out of its chest and my legs were buckling and I could not believe that this was happening.
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--:-- Erin Banco: We didn't realize the sheer, just immense nature of these leaks until a bit later.
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--:-- Noel King: If you do the sort of digging and searching in an open source way, it's not really that hard to figure out, you know, who was a part of this original server.
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--:-- Erin Banco: So I imagine that the government, all they had to do was subpoena Discord, get lists of people who were on that original server and then start asking questions.
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--:-- Erin Banco: Discord has said that they've been cooperating with law enforcement, with the government investigation.
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--:-- Noel King: Okay, so there's a big search for the leaker.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: We don't know all of the details of the search.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Noel King: But then yesterday, there's a huge development.
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--:-- Erin Banco: So as soon as the New York Times divulged the name of the alleged leaguer, it really went very quickly from there.
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--:-- Erin Banco: Within, I'd say, an hour and a half, we see the FBI being photographed in front of this individual's house.
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--:-- Erin Banco: We see them doing a search on television.
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--:-- Erin Banco: You know, we have drones flying around this kid's house.
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--:-- Erin Banco: We see tons of law enforcement activity.
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--:-- Erin Banco: The New York Times is there taking photos.
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--:-- Erin Banco: And very quickly, this individual is arrested and taken into custody.
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--:-- Noel King: Okay, who is this guy?
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--:-- Erin Banco: So this individual is Jack Teixeira.
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--:-- Erin Banco: He's 21 years old, and he lives in the Taunton, Massachusetts area, sort of the North Dighton Township.
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--:-- Erin Banco: He works on a base there.
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--:-- Erin Banco: He is a part of the Air National Guard, specifically works in an intelligence unit within that guard.
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--:-- Erin Banco: He works on sort of cybersecurity issues.
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--:-- Erin Banco: The 21-year-old was in the 102nd Intelligence Wing of the Massachusetts Air National Guard.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: He was working as a cyber transport systems journeyman.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: In other words, he was responsible for keeping the Internet working at all of the airbases.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: And no doubt we will learn more.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: We also know that he comes from a family that has longstanding ties to the specific intelligence wing.
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--:-- Erin Banco: His stepfather worked at the airbase for 34 years, retired from the intelligence wing in 2019.
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--:-- Erin Banco: His stepbrother, Alex, is a current member of that intelligence wing.
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--:-- Noel King: It seems to me, based off of reporting from interviews with friends of this individual who were also part of the Discord channel, that Jack leaned more conservative.
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--:-- Erin Banco: He owned guns.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: He was described by one of the friends on the Discord server as just being very concerned about world events.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: The Washington Post says it spoke to a friend of the alleged leaguer, agreeing not to name or show the young man who said this about his friend.
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--:-- Erin Banco: He disagreed with several occasions such as Waco and Ruby Ridge and thought that the government is overreaching in several aspects.
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--:-- Erin Banco: And that's why he leaked the documents and wanted to inform his friends about what was going on in the world.
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--:-- Noel King: You know, I don't know if I really buy that, to be honest with you, but that's at least how he's been described by people who know him.
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--:-- Erin Banco: But what we also know about Jack and some of the other individuals on this Discord server is that they have been videoed and other messages have been captured that show them speaking very negatively about other races and cultures, very racist talk on some of these forums.
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--:-- Erin Banco: I think some of the videos have shown him shooting a gun, yelling sort of racist anti-Semitic remarks.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Noel King: So that's sort of the extent to which we understand Jack at this point.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: Do we have any idea of a motive of why he did this?
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: I think the motive is still, you know, an open question.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: His friends on this Discord server has described him as leaking the content to educate and to inform.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Noel King: I'm not sure I really understand Jack's motive yet.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: It could be that he was trying to impress his friends about the level of access he had in these servers
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: It could be he really had ideological reasons for doing it
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Banco: We just don't know a lot about that yet.
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--:-- Noel King: Support for Today Explained comes from Chime.
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--:-- Noel King: It's Today Explained.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Noel King: We're back with Politico's Erin Benko, who covers intelligence.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: Erin, we talked earlier in the show about how this might have happened, the logistics of it, how it appeared on Discord and then spread.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Noel King: What were the systemic problems that allowed a young guy with some amount of classified access to essentially surprise the United States government by leaking stuff that ended up all over the Internet?
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: So what we know about Jack Teixeira is that he is 21, which isn't all that young, you know, in terms of individuals who enter the Massachusetts Air National Guard or the military in general, right?
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: What we do know is that individuals who work in this national security apparatus within the federal government have access to all sorts of kinds of intelligence, you know, top secret, highly sensitive, classified documents and intelligence.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: And this is partly because if you think about what happened in the post-9-11 era, you know, what happened procedurally within the federal government after that is that there was a real push to share information across the federal government so that nothing like 9-11 would ever happen again.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: And so a lot of those policies have been in place now for decades, right?
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Noel King: These documents are about the war in Ukraine and the information in them involves not just the United States and Ukraine, but many, many, many other countries.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: What has the fallout looked like on a global scale? Who's angry about this? Which countries are saying something about this?
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: You know, it's been really interesting because we have not seen a ton of reaction from within the administration or, frankly, Congress about the leak itself.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: We've seen some murmurs from, you know, lawmakers on the intelligence community.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: We've seen, you know, spokespeople for the Pentagon come to the podium and sort of talk about the leak.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: I think the American people need to know and deserve to know that we're taking this very, very seriously.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: There is no excuse.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Noel King: But the administration, you know, when we're just talking about the U.S. now, we've seen the administration really clamp down on having people talk about the leak in general.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: There's been a real push to get people not to talk about this until the investigation is over and until the administration really understands the extent of it.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: Internationally, we've seen countries like South Korea come out, you know, very angry about the leak because one of the documents in the tranche shows that President Biden and his National Security Council had reached out to South Korea to consider sending ammunition to Ukraine.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: South Korea's defense minister has spoken with his U.S. counterpart to reassure each other their alliance is as strong as ever, both pointing out they believe a number of the leaked documents are false.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: Many of the disclosed documents are fabricated and our joint assessments are consistent with each other.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: We haven't seen a ton of reaction from from Kiev, from President Zelensky and his advisers, which has been surprising.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: A lot of the information in the documents was about Ukraine and about the extent to which the U.S. is spying on Kyiv, you know, on the inner circles within Kyiv.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: This is being seen as a worrying development for a U.S. spying operation that has been remarkably efficient and remarkably effective throughout the war in Ukraine.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: So I'd say overall, the response has been somewhat muted in a way that I wasn't fully expecting.
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--:-- Erin Benko: Um president biden himself in his travels to ireland had said he's not sure that he's all that concerned basically about the leak but i think as the case begins to play out in public in court we begin to see more reaction
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--:-- Erin Benko: I was reading about biden remarks this morning and his quote was i concerned that it happened but there nothing nothing contemporaneous that I aware of that is of great consequence
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Noel King: The president of the United States is saying this is not a big deal.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: That feels surprising to me.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: It's surprising to me, too, and I can't tell if that's because the information that was within the documents is so widespread within the government, you know, that thousands of people have access to that information that he thinks just everyone knows about what was in the documents, or if he really thinks that the information that was contained within it is not sensitive and that there's perhaps other information out there that he thinks is, you know, would be even more damaging if it were to come out, it's hard to sort of parse what he meant there.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: I know national security officials within the administration are really upset and concerned that this leak happened.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: They think it exposes sources and methods.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: It exposes how we use different intelligence mechanisms to gather intelligence and information, that it puts people in harm's way.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: But maybe from an informational standpoint, the president doesn't think that the information is all that damaging.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Noel King: How does this compare to past high-profile, high-level leaks of secretive government documents?
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: So this leak has been, you know, sort of immediately compared to the WikiLeaks tranche of documents that came out between 2006 and about 2020, where Julian Assange and other people who worked at WikiLeaks were publishing, you know, millions of documents, some of them very secret, very sensitive, about all sorts of, you know, global events.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: The whistleblower faces up to 175 years in a U.S. prison if he is finally extradited and eventually convicted of leaking American military secrets.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: Now, the leak we're talking about here is much smaller in scale.
--:-- [Sound effects: A quick news clip plays in the background]
--:-- Erin Benko: I think we're talking maybe hundreds of documents.
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--:-- Erin Benko: But what's different about this leak is that the documents that are being leaked are documents that deal with real-time national security issues and events.
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--:-- Erin Benko: You know, the war in Ukraine is still ongoing.
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--:-- Erin Benko: What's being leaked is very sensitive because we're talking about conversations that happened, you know, between world leaders just like last month.
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--:-- Erin Benko: And so in a way, these documents are more piercing and more damaging because they deal with real-time events, which can really affect things on the ground, perhaps, for example, in Ukraine.
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--:-- Erin Benko: You know, we saw the leak with Reality Winner, where she leaked, you know, documents that had to do with the 2016 election.
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--:-- Erin Benko: She was hit with the longest sentence ever imposed on a civilian for leaking classified information to the media.
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--:-- Erin Benko: But again, those were only just a few documents.
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--:-- Erin Benko: They went through the media.
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--:-- Erin Benko: So again, what's different about this leak is that it didn't go through media sources.
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--:-- Erin Benko: You know, we're not necessarily dealing with an individual who had a certain ideological belief where they wanted to package the material in a way that was, you know, or framed in a certain way that was then passed on through the media and would get disseminated that way.
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--:-- Erin Benko: I mean, these documents were just dumped on discord to a very small group of people.
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--:-- Noel King: What are the immediate consequences now?
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--:-- Erin Benko: So I know the Pentagon has begun to talk about ways to perhaps change their policies about who gets access to certain kinds of material, how it gets disseminated.
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--:-- Erin Benko: But we have not seen any sort of immediate lockdown or change in policy take place yet.
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--:-- Erin Benko: I think the discussions are still underway.
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--:-- Erin Benko: We continue to review a variety of factors as it relates to safeguarding classified materials.
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--:-- Erin Benko: This includes examining and updating distribution lists, assessing how and where intelligence products are shared, and a variety of other steps.
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--:-- Noel King: Should the American public assume, I don't mean to be cynical or even sinister, but should the American public assume that classified documents are just not that secure?
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--:-- Erin Benko: I think it's fair to assume that a lot of classified information is perhaps in the hands of individuals who could potentially leak it, right?
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--:-- Erin Benko: But that is the risk we've always taken with having classified information and security clearances.
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--:-- Erin Benko: And again, in that post 9-11 era, we really expanded the range of people that had access to this information.
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--:-- Erin Benko: You'll hear officials say we have very strict security clearance protocols and things like that.
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--:-- Erin Benko: But again, I think that security clearance process is going to need to be reviewed.
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--:-- Erin Benko: And I think it will be reviewed.
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--:-- Erin Benko: We've already seen lawmakers and officials begin to talk about that.
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--:-- Noel King: That was Erin Benko.
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--:-- Noel King: She covers intelligence at Politico.
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--:-- Noel King: Today's show was produced by Halima Shah and Avishai Artsy.
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--:-- Noel King: It was edited by Matthew Collette and fact-checked by Laura Bullard and Victoria Chamberlain.
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--:-- Noel King: It was engineered by Paul Robert Mounsey and Patrick Boyd.
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--:-- Noel King: I'm Noelle King.
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--:-- Noel King: It's Today Explained.
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