--:-- Noelle King: Tony Green, a high school teacher at Bishop O'Dowd in Oakland, was in Washington, D.C. for a celebration of the brand-new African American Studies AP course last week when he got word that some parts of the course had been changed, some sections revised. Some conservatives had taken issue with those sections. What this guy in Florida did is he just threw a monkey wrench into the works. This guy in Florida is Governor Ron DeSantis, and the College Board aggressively denies allegations that it bowed to political pressure.
--:-- Noelle King: We may never know what actually happened, but Mr. Green taught the original pilot course. So what was in it? What's not now? And what does Mr. Green plan to do with what some people have called a watered-down curriculum? Well, it's not really in his nature to back down. My grandmother fought off the Klan with a shotgun, right? Coming up on Today Explained.
--:-- Noelle King: Support for Today Explained comes from BetterHelp. Let me tell you a true story. Last weekend, I got an email from a listener who wanted to discuss their problems with me. And I said, look, I don't think that this is about me personally. At least I hope it's not. Why don't you try BetterHelp.com slash Explained. Absolute truth. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Find the one with BetterHelp. The one is not me, guys. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com slash explain. That's BetterHelp.com slash explain.
--:-- Noelle King: Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of $45 for three-month plan, $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.
--:-- Noelle King: It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King with Scott Jacek, who's the editor of Inside Higher Ed.
--:-- Scott Jacek: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Noelle King: So this began a few years ago because black students, on average, do not take as many AP exams and do not score well enough on the AP to earn college credit. But there's long been a desire to get more black students involved with AP. And while AP in African-American history is not only for Black students, there was an assumption that it would be of particular importance to them.
--:-- Scott Jacek: Pilot school principal Carrie Holland hopes this course will increase access to advanced courses. But ultimately, for the students, it's about more than academics. It's about identity. There is no one way to be Black, and so this class just really reminds me of that.
--:-- Scott Jacek: more black children, young black children like me, can grow up knowing this information, and it'll change the world. How was it rolled out? Well, the way it's rolled out, you know, AP, in any new course, has a pilot program. We put out a number of different sources for the first pilot and immediately started talking with students and teachers where the course was living and just asked them which sources are interesting, which sources are engaging, which sources make your creativity come alive, and started tweaking from there.
--:-- Scott Jacek: And what the AP program did is they went to 300 professors of African-American studies and asked them, what do you think we should include? What should we not include? Et cetera. This results in a lot of debates. And then gradually, AP developed the course. And what you'll find when you read it, as I hope you will, is you'll find an unflinching encounter with the facts and evidence of African-American history and culture that gives young people the chance to think for themselves.
--:-- Scott Jacek: And the course, you know, covers from Africa to slavery to the Civil War. Lots of things are in the course and haven't been that controversial. Most of the controversy is over the modern period of African-American history. And what's in the modern period? Black Lives Matter, affirmative action, the debate over reparations for slavery, queer theory.
--:-- Noelle King: This course on black history, what's one of the lessons about? Queer theory. Now, who would say that an important part of black history is queer theory? That is somebody pushing an agenda on our kids. And so then what happens is Governor Ron DeSantis of Florida gives a speech and announces that AP won't be granted for Florida public schools.
--:-- Scott Jacek: The Department of Education highlighted specific issues with proposed sections on Black queer studies, reparations, and the Black Lives Matter movement, as well as activism, saying it amounts to indoctrination, not education.
--:-- Noelle King: This is a huge deal for the AP program because Florida is a large state and it matters to the College Board to reach Florida. What was Governor DeSantis arguing? Well, he hasn't been that explicit about it. He said the course had nothing of value. His education department said there was nothing to learn there, that it was, quote, woke education.
--:-- Scott Jacek: They're advocating things like abolishing prisons. Now, that's a radical political position. You're free to take that in your own life. I don't think very many people would think that that would actually work.
--:-- Noelle King: How is that being taught as fact to be able to— But I think, obviously, Ron DeSantis is getting ready for a possible run for president. and many people think that that is the real motivation here.
--:-- Scott Jacek: What we're dealing with is this fear of this historiographical displacement that's driving the terror and panic, and it's being used by people like DeSantis to motivate fears and grievance and for his own political and selfish ends.
--:-- Noelle King: Okay, so Ron DeSantis says this course has no place in the state of Florida, and the College Board responds by doing what? That's sort of unclear. I mean they removed all of those sections from the course but denied that it had anything to do with Ron DeSantis They said that the College Board has to scrutinize what it going to do and has to eliminate some things.
--:-- Scott Jacek: We at the College Board don't really look to the statements of politicians, but we do look to the record of history. So when we revised the course, there were only two things we went to. We went to what Brandi described, which is feedback from teachers and students, as well as 300 professors who have been involved in building the course.
--:-- Noelle King: And we went back to principals that have guided AP for a long time and served us well. But most educators assume that there was a connection, that Ron DeSantis did play a role in this. It's more likely that the College Board said, okay, well, what are the things that are causing controversy? Let's get some of them out.
--:-- Scott Jacek: The College Board released the official curriculum yesterday. The Black Lives Matter movement and reparations are now listed as optional project topics. And according to the New York Times, several trailblazing Black authors were removed, including Bell Hooks, who wrote about race and feminism.
--:-- Noelle King: And many people view this as creating an AP light in African-American studies, because in the African-American community today, affirmative action does matter. Black lives matter matters. Many people are shocked at some of the things that have been taken away. It is incomprehensible to see that this is what this ban or this block, to be more specific, that DeSantis has put forward.
--:-- Scott Jacek: If you think about the study of black Americans, that is what he wants to block. And again, these types of actions aren't new. They are not new from what we're seeing, especially from Florida, sadly.
--:-- Noelle King: The College Board is saying, we did not bow to political pressure. A lot of informed people are saying, nah, it looks like they did. If the College Board did bow to political pressure, what's the problem with that? Well, the problem with that is the College Board's job is to create educational materials on a range of subjects.
--:-- Scott Jacek: The College Board should not be bowing to political pressure. That's not what it does. That's not what it should do.
--:-- Noelle King: Always good to have you in the studio, Ta-Nehisi Coates.
--:-- Ta-Nehisi Coates: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Noelle King: So what concerns you most about the revisions that you're hearing? Well, really what concerns me is the climate around the revisions. I'm certainly not the person with qualifications to design a curriculum for AP, even AP for African-American studies.
--:-- Ta-Nehisi Coates: I think the board should be free to do their work and do their pilot programs and go through the process and not be influenced not just by my thoughts, but by the thoughts of governors, legislatures who are passing laws who apparently just want a curriculum that makes people feel comfortable and feel good about themselves.
--:-- Noelle King: Let's say that I'm a student who will take this AP course in the coming year. What will I be learning about? You will probably be learning a lot. As I said, this course starts in Africa, talks about how the slaves were caught and brought to America, talks about the conditions of slavery, talks about the Civil War, talks about the Reconstruction period, talks about the Jim Crow period.
--:-- Ta-Nehisi Coates: All those things students will still learn. What they'll learn less about is in the modern era of some of those hot topics. It is a huge advance if those students are learning black history, black culture, black literature. and they may well be learning more than they've learned in the past.
--:-- Noelle King: But that doesn't in any way take away the concerns about what they're not learning. You know, in education, people always talk about the curriculum, what's in the curriculum. But you also need to focus on what's not in the curriculum. If you only are reading male authors and not reading any female authors, that's a bad thing.
--:-- Ta-Nehisi Coates: And many students historically have done that. And this is an attempt to broaden the curriculum, to broaden what students will understand. And some people think it's very disappointing that some of the modern hot issues are left out.
--:-- Noelle King: Coming up, this AP course was piloted in schools throughout the United States. And we're going to talk to a teacher who taught it about the original course and about the changes. And we're going to ask whether he's disappointed.
--:-- Noelle King: Support for Today Explained comes from Built Rewards. These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program. You swipe your card and you get one cent on the hundred dollars. But with your rent, frequently, you just pay month after month. You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head. Not anymore, says Built Rewards.
--:-- Scott Jacek: Built Rewards says it lets you earn points on your rent. By paying rent through Built, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines, perhaps a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and so much more.
--:-- Noelle King: Your home isn't just where you sleep. It's your community. And Built wants you to go out and do things in the community. You can eat at your favorite local restaurants, then earn more points. You can get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios. You can enjoy exclusive experiences just for Built members every month.
--:-- Scott Jacek: When you're ready to travel, they say Built points can be converted to miles or hotel points all around the world. You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood wherever you call home by joining built.com slash explained.
--:-- Noelle King: That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash explained.
--:-- Noelle King: Why shop at Burlington? Maybe it's the deals that are new each time you drop by. Maybe it's the brand names you'll be shocked Burlington has in store. Or maybe it's the quality of the items, the amazing selection, and the newest trends.
--:-- Scott Jacek: If you like to save but also like to stay in style, Burlington is your answer. And the question you'll be asking yourself is, why go anywhere else? Burlington. Deals. Brands. Wow.
--:-- Noelle King: It's Today Explained. I'm Noelle King.
--:-- Tony Green: Well, my full name is Anthony Martin DePores Green but my mama used to just call me Tony until I got in trouble and she would use my full name. She was everyone's mom.
--:-- Noelle King: So I a teacher and a coach in Oakland, and I have been a teacher and a coach for the last 42 years. I've taught economics and foreign policy. I've taught rise of Black nationalism, Caribbean coffee, Canaan culture, African-American studies. And currently I'm teaching advanced placement African-American Studies.
--:-- Tony Green: Mr. Green, Tony is one of 60 teachers in the United States who taught the pilot version of the AP African-American Studies course.
--:-- Noelle King: I asked him why teaching an AP course on African-American Studies is important to him.
--:-- Tony Green: When I first started my formal education, I went to a school in a housing project in Vallejo called Flawston Elementary School, and it was in the Floyd Terrace Housing Project. At that point, history was taught to us by very young teenage Black Panthers. It was at the start of their Black Panther breakfast program in about 1968, I would say.
--:-- Tony Green: And growing up, the housing project that my school was in, half of it burned down in the 1968 rebellions that happened after Martin Luther King's assassination. So my parents took me out of that school and they moved me across town to an all-white school.
--:-- Tony Green: And at that point, when they started to refer to history, I no longer heard anything about what Black folks had done historically. And so my perspective on, you know, the truth and what I was being told, you know, really changed.
--:-- Tony Green: And I started to learn history from a Western perspective, and it did not jive with what I had learned previously. And so my total focus in terms of education from that point forward was learning more about African-American history and studies.
--:-- Tony Green: And when this opportunity veiled itself this past summer to teach advanced placement African-American studies, I jumped at it. And the reason why I think advanced placement African-American studies is so important is because it's a national recognition of real history.
--:-- Noelle King: Tell me, what does pilot mean in this context for you and for your students? It means that the students do not get advanced placement credit for college. They do not get college credit at this point until it's fully accepted by the college board.
--:-- Tony Green: I currently have 65 students, so the students were very interested in the course and it's become very popular. I see the students as revolutionaries, especially if you look at the content that they are pushing out there. It's at a very high level.
--:-- Noelle King: Even though your students weren't getting the college credit, they wanted to take this class. Exactly. 100% correct.
--:-- Tony Green: I would say the information that's contained that they had no concept of, they had no concept of, give you an example, Abu Bakr II, the brother of the richest man in history, Mansa Musa, you know, who was able to actually navigate the seas before the supposed father of the age of discovery, Christopher Columbus in 1492.
--:-- Tony Green: Abu Bakr did it in the 1300s. They had no idea that you had the number of Islamic universities connected to Africa that preceded universities in Europe. The oldest continuous university, the University of Kareen in Morocco, is still open today.
--:-- Noelle King: Let me ask you something, Mr. Green. Parts of this course really set conservative Americans on edge. It seemed like there were lessons that were more in the present day that had conservatives really concerned. What were those parts?
--:-- Tony Green: Well, I would say one of the main issues that conservatives have is the idea of the Black Lives Matter movement. Historically, there's been a major concern since Reconstruction has ended about the intimidation of Black people brought on directly or indirectly by the United States government.
--:-- Tony Green: And it perpetuates itself currently in the actions that the police have in relationship largely to Black males or sometimes Black females. There's a number of cases that have caused Black activists to respond by creating this movement called the Black Lives Matter movement.
--:-- Noelle King: Why that is threatening to conservatives, I would link basically to racism. the belief that Black people are not fully human, right, which is something that extends throughout the colonial period to the contemporary historical period.
--:-- Tony Green: Black people react with extreme anger. And I wouldn't say just Black people if you look at the Black Lives Matter movement, which was an international movement. And so when they respond to anger, it's natural. Racists don't think that it's natural because they don't believe that Black people are fully human.
--:-- Tony Green: They think that there's something wrong with us. But if you look at history, and this is the beauty of advanced placement African-American history, it tells exactly who we are as humans.
--:-- Noelle King: When did you start hearing that there might be pushback about the content? And what were you hearing?
--:-- Tony Green: During the summer when we first got together at Howard University you know there was a discussion amongst you know quite a few teachers you know over you know social discussion that in some states there might be pushback because of the content and because of the history of certain states
--:-- Tony Green: You know, in terms of the most recent thing in Florida, a week to two weeks ago, sort of a discussion about, you know, what the guy down there would be talking about and how he would be, you know, attempting to use it to sort of leverage his own political ambitions, which I think is exactly what he's doing.
--:-- Tony Green: He's trying to leverage this idea. My family is from Florida. My mama's side is all from Florida. My grandmother fought off the Klan with a shotgun. Right. That's Florida.
--:-- Tony Green: If you look at black history in the Americas, the first black settlement in the United States, Fort Mose or Fort Negro in Florida is now St. Augustine that was built by black hands. We learn that in advanced placement, African-American studies.
--:-- Tony Green: There's always been pushback from white racists in Florida. So that was sort of expected. Some of the teachers that were teaching it down there expected it as well.
--:-- Tony Green: But, you know, politically, now all of a sudden we're starting to talk about this guy instead of talking about advanced placement African-American studies. Right. And he's consuming a lot of the oxygen.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm here in D.C., you know, for this celebration of this course. But the oxygen was actually sucked out, you know, over the last week, you know, for this guy down in Florida. And it's doing exactly what he wanted it to do. It's caused this controversy.
--:-- Tony Green: You said you're in D.C. because of the course? What's been going on?
--:-- Tony Green: The college board had a huge celebration at the Museum of African American Studies and brought the original 60 teachers back in town for this celebration. But we were forced to, you know, to address that issue. And it's really unfortunate.
--:-- Tony Green: But what I think is going to actually happen is it's going to make the course much more popular. If we're talking about teenagers, yeah. The fact that, right, the quote-unquote establishment doesn't like it, sure. I hear you on that.
--:-- Tony Green: How did you get word that this course had been revised? I mean, you all are in town to celebrate. And then does the college board say, oh, we decided to switch this up on you?
--:-- Tony Green: There's been a constant revision over a number of months. So this is really nothing that new, right? We have access to all those materials and everybody is still going to be teaching from those materials and bringing in other materials as well.
--:-- Tony Green: You know, the 20% of the class is based on this semester ending project that the students are doing. A lot of them, I'm sure, are going to do their projects on these materials that supposedly were pulled out in reaction to this guy in Florida, which I don't necessarily think is the case.
--:-- Tony Green: This is a matter of great debate. The College Board says it is not bowing to political pressure. The College Board is saying we took into account the thoughts of academics and they told us the course needed to be different.
--:-- Tony Green: Why do you think this happened? If you look at where we started in August, we got, I think we got two units of four units, right? And things were being added and they were being moved and they were being positioned and they were being deleted since we were together in August, right?
--:-- Tony Green: Then this semester, we got parts of another unit, right? We did not get a complete package. We've been getting this material unit by unit since it's a pilot, and we've been looking at the material.
--:-- Tony Green: And so since it's a pilot, it's constantly being revised. But I think what this guy in Florida did is he just threw a monkey wrench into the works, didn't read the entire document. He said that the material that we're covering, essentially, he said it was unimportant. Right.
--:-- Tony Green: You know, he's doing it to put his name out there, which it is done perfectly. But these revisions have been taking place constantly because it's a pilot. So we did not get any final document till February 1st.
--:-- Noelle King: Are you disappointed by any of the revisions?
--:-- Tony Green: Am I disappointed? Reason why I'm not disappointed is because we have academic freedom and we have access to all the materials. So I don't know why I would be disappointed.
--:-- Tony Green: I'm disappointed that the air was taken out of the sails of the launching of this great course and some of the oxygen is consumed by this guy. That's what I'm disappointed with.
--:-- Tony Green: I'm not disappointed with, you know, anything because I've got, like I said, I've got all the documents. I can read every single one of them to you right now.
--:-- Noelle King: What I think I hear you saying is you think this sort of outcry over the revision is a bit of a distraction from the fact that next year you will be teaching advanced placement African-American studies.
--:-- Tony Green: That is 100% correct. And the 60 schools which we started with are going to be, I think, 300 next year. That should be the story.
--:-- Noelle King: Anthony Martin-Deporis Green Mr. Green teaches and coaches whatever the kids need at Bishop O'Dowd High School in Oakland His recommended reads include Invisible Man and The Wealth of Nations
--:-- Noelle King: Today's show was produced by Siona Petros and Hady Mawajdeh, fact-checked by Laura Bullard, engineered by Patrick Boyd, and edited by Matt Collette and Noel King, who also hosted.
--:-- Noelle King: I'm Noelle King. It's Today Explained.
