--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram, and I'm here with Nia Prater, who's been writing about this kerfuffle over college presidents for New York Magazine's Intelligencer.
--:-- Nia Prater: Thanks for having me on the show.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So last Tuesday, the House Education and the Workforce Committee held a hearing looking into how colleges and universities are handling antisemitism on their campuses.
--:-- Nia Prater: That's right. The hearing featured testimonies from three university leaders: Liz McGill, the president of the University of Pennsylvania; Claudine Gay, the president of Harvard University; and Sally Kornbluth, the president of MIT.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Let's start with Liz McGill. She's the president of the University of Pennsylvania. What was her testimony like?
--:-- Nia Prater: Well, she started by condemning Hamas' attack on Israel on October 7th. But then she was asked by Congresswoman Elise Stefanik about whether calling for the genocide of Jewish people would violate the university's code of conduct.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what was her response?
--:-- Nia Prater: She said that she hadn't heard calling for the genocide of Jews on their campus, but she had heard chants for intifada, which can be anti-Semitic depending on the context.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then Congresswoman Stefanik pressed her further, asking if calling for the genocide of Jewish people would be a violation of the university's code of conduct.
--:-- Nia Prater: Yes, that's right. And Liz McGill seemed to be trying to balance the idea of free speech on campus with the need to address actual conduct, like threats or physical incidents.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the other two university presidents? How did they respond to the same question?
--:-- Nia Prater: Well, Claudine Gay, the president of Harvard, seemed to take a more cautious approach. She said that she hadn't heard calling for the genocide of Jews on their campus, but she acknowledged that some students had been intimidated or frightened by pro-Palestinian protests.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And Sally Kornbluth, the president of MIT, seemed to take a more direct approach. She said that calling for the genocide of Jewish people would be a violation of the university's code of conduct.
--:-- Nia Prater: Yes, that's right. And it's worth noting that Sally Kornbluth's response was seen as more straightforward and clear than the other two presidents.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what was the fallout from the hearing? Did the university presidents face any backlash?
--:-- Nia Prater: Yes, they did. A congressional committee plans to open an investigation into antisemitism on the campuses of three elite universities. And the alumni, donors, and politicians were calling for all three presidents to either be replaced or for them to resign from their positions.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about Liz McGill, the president of the University of Pennsylvania? Did she face any backlash?
--:-- Nia Prater: Yes, she did. Her remarks were directly condemned by Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. And even a donor for UPenn threatened to revoke a $100 million donation to the school in light of her testimony.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about Claudine Gay, the president of Harvard? Did she face any backlash?
--:-- Nia Prater: Yes, she did. But it's worth noting that she's still in her position, at least for now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about Sally Kornbluth, the president of MIT? Did she face any backlash?
--:-- Nia Prater: No, she didn't. In fact, the school's executive committee issued a statement of very strong support for her following her testimony.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the controversy surrounding the university presidents' testimony? Is it being blown out of proportion by politicians, by social media, by the media?
--:-- Nia Prater: Well, there's a difference between saying that there is a problem, but it's been exaggerated, and saying that there's no problem. There is a problem at Harvard and at lots of other universities.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the specific issue of pro-Palestinian students and their right to demonstrate?
--:-- Nia Prater: Well, the pro-Palestinian students have a right to demonstrate and express their support for Palestinian rights. But the question is where do those limits lie, where do they cross the line into intimidation, harassment, and so forth?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the slogans that are being used by pro-Palestinian students? Are they being interpreted as calls for genocide?
--:-- Nia Prater: Well, the slogans can mean different things depending on the context. For example, the phrase "from the river to the sea" can mean freedom for the Palestinians living side by side with Jews, or it can mean the destruction of Israel.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the Harvard professor of Jewish history, Derek Penslar? What does he think about the controversy surrounding the university presidents' testimony?
--:-- Derek Penslar: Well, I think that the university presidents made a mistake in their testimony. They were talking to the American people, and they needed to speak in a way that took cognizance of the American people's sensibilities and fears and sensitivities at this time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the issue of free speech on campus? Do you think that the university presidents are being too cautious in their response to the controversy?
--:-- Derek Penslar: Well, I think that the university presidents need to be more direct and clear in their response to the controversy. They need to be a model of leadership for the students and the faculty, and they need to initiate ways to talk about tough issues, including Israel-Palestine, in an informed, substantive, and civil way.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the Harvard president, Claudine Gay? Do you think she should resign?
--:-- Derek Penslar: No, I don't think she should resign. I think that if there's going to be a decision that she should resign, it should be the result of a conversation between the Harvard faculty and the alumni and other lay leadership of Harvard.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the issue of doxxing and harassment on campus? Do you think that the university presidents are doing enough to address these issues?
--:-- Derek Penslar: Well, I think that the university presidents need to do more to address these issues. They need to be more proactive in their response to the controversy, and they need to initiate ways to talk about tough issues, including Israel-Palestine, in an informed, substantive, and civil way.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the event that you organized with a Palestinian scholar and an Israeli scholar? How did that go?
--:-- Derek Penslar: Well, it was a very well-received event. We had a lot of positive feedback from the students and the faculty, and it was a great opportunity for us to have a serious conversation about the issues that are affecting the campus.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And what about the future of the university presidents? Do you think that they will be able to recover from the controversy surrounding their testimony?
--:-- Derek Penslar: Well, I think that it's going to be a long and difficult process for the university presidents to recover from the controversy surrounding their testimony. But I do think that they have the potential to learn from their mistakes and to become better leaders in the future.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that's all the time we have for today. Thanks to Nia Prater and Derek Penslar for joining us on the show.
--:-- Nia Prater: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Derek Penslar: Thanks for having me.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And thanks to our listeners for tuning in. If you want to support Today Explained, you can make a financial contribution to Vox at bit.ly/givepodcasts.
