--:-- [Theme music fades out]
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ahead on Today Explained, Squatters.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A woman rented out a guest home in one of L.A.'s posh neighborhoods, but refuses to leave. The house came with something the new owners didn't bargain for: a squatter.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A couple in New York City bought their dream home for $2 million, but nope, a freeloader, a squatter is inside right now and won't leave.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A San Diego woman says squatters are living in her rental home, and she can't get rid of them. Lawmakers in Tallahassee are taking action to address squatting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Hot dog. Finally, finally something's getting done.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Squatters. I walked in on weapons, a prostitute, a bunch of dogs in the back. It's pretty crazy to think that I could just walk onto any porch that I want to, show up, and claim that I have the right to be here.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, we're hearing now that if it happened to the mayor's house, it could happen to any of us.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Squatters. Coming up on Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And any department can focus on the work that matters most.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I've never met an AI agent. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This product may cause intoxication. This product has not been evaluated or approved by the FDA. This product may contain up to 0.3% THC.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's today. Today Explained. Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What's the big story over at Curbed these days? The story is squatting, how to do it, where the best places to squat are, what's the best weather and season for squatting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Just kidding. No, it is squatting, but we don't tell you how, but we have been covering a topic that seems to be interesting for everyone these days.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Bridget Reed. She covers housing for Curbed.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We asked her what's up with the sudden interest in squatting.
--:-- Bridget Reed: You know, we're not exactly sure. There definitely were a few squatting situations in New York City that happened around the same time. So it almost created like a squatter cluster, let's call it. And that was kind of swarmed by the New York Post, which really likes to cover these stories. And that's when it kind of spun out. And now it seems to have kind of reached a fever pitch of squatting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You shouldn't be trying to steal my house.
--:-- Bridget Reed: Yes, you are.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Adele and Deloro says she inherited this New York City house, but a group of people moved in and changed the locks.
--:-- Bridget Reed: One that made a lot of headlines involved a homeowner in Queens who was actually herself arrested when she attempted to intervene on men she found living at her property. And that one really went viral.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So when Adele had the locks changed again.
--:-- Bridget Reed: You're getting arrested right now?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm being arrested.
--:-- Bridget Reed: For what?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: For being in my own home.
--:-- Bridget Reed: Police then took her away in handcuffs for unlawful eviction.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Another one involves a man living in a home that was recently bought by a family, and they're sort of in a dispute.
--:-- Bridget Reed: The man living there claims to have been a caretaker of the old owner. A signed statement says he was hired by the former homeowner as his caretaker, was paid $3,000 a week, and his employment ended in January of last year when the man died.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then a really grisly example was a woman who actually was murdered when she came upon accused squatters living in her apartment in Manhattan.
--:-- Bridget Reed: Police say two alleged squatters killed a mother and hit her body in a duffel bag in an apartment.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There have definitely been more stories across the country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I did cover one in L.A. involving people that moved into a mansion in Beverly Hills.
--:-- Bridget Reed: Some Beverly Crest residents tell us that they are being kept up at all hours of the night and fearing for their safety.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There was another L.A. story involving someone who moved into a home in Hollywood and was renting out the rooms for OnlyFans stars.
--:-- Bridget Reed: That one made some headlines.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This really is so bizarre, it almost sounds like a Hollywood movie.
--:-- Bridget Reed: You've got a stunning Hollywood mansion up for sale, OnlyFans models and parties.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But this really did happen and apparently it's going on more often than we know about.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There have been a lot of stories in Atlanta where there is a quite strong rental home and sort of second home Airbnb home market.
--:-- Bridget Reed: So they do have a lot of empty, vacant property. A local Army officer is back in her DeKalb County home tonight, a week after we told you about how a squatter had moved in and was living in her place.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is there an actual uptick in squatting right now or is this just a story that's getting more attention right now?
--:-- Bridget Reed: Do we know?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The answer, somewhat unsatisfyingly, is that it's hard to say because squatting, the term is being used as kind of a catch-all for something that actually does have a legal definition.
--:-- Bridget Reed: So true squatting involving someone illegally occupying your property has never been given permission. That's the true definition of squatting.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In New York and lots of states, there's something called adverse possession, which means someone is occupying a property for long enough where they eventually can be deemed the legal owner, the lawful owner.
--:-- Bridget Reed: In New York, that takes 10 years. And it has to be continuous and unbroken for 10 years.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So you can imagine how rare that is in New York City to have a property where the landlord's not going to notice you're living there for 10 years.
--:-- Bridget Reed: You know, it almost never happens.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What does happen in New York is after 30 days, you have to be taken to court to be kicked out.
--:-- Bridget Reed: Property owners must go through the court system to get rid of them, a system that could take close to two years for a resolution.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: If the laws around squatting don't provide this huge window to be exploited, then what does is the speed of the court system.
--:-- Bridget Reed: So already housing court was underfunded. Housing court lawyers are overwhelmed with cases.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this got even worse during the pandemic.
--:-- Bridget Reed: People could stay in a home for years, years without having justice brought to them for staying essentially for free and making a homeowner have to pay their bills.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So you have a system that's gummed up by a huge backlog.
--:-- Bridget Reed: And that means that even a case that looks like it should be open and shut.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So those cops said in Queens, OK, you say you have a lease. Let's let a judge decide.
--:-- Bridget Reed: And it's obviously fake.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, I've seen leases that are very clearly downloaded from the first page on Google.
--:-- Bridget Reed: I'm not a judge, but if I could figure it out, you think they could.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Those should be very quick.
--:-- Bridget Reed: And they're not anymore because the court system is so mired in all of these cases.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So it feels like the laws here are pretty clear and they certainly don't accommodate murder or theft.
--:-- Bridget Reed: And yet there's a lot of hysterics around squatting right now.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Does it add up to you somehow?
--:-- Bridget Reed: Yes and no.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I do think it's possible that people are learning how to exploit some of these rights that tenants and licensees are afforded.
--:-- Bridget Reed: But it does seem like another motivation is a larger dispute between the landlord and the tenant lobbies in New York City and a really strong reason why it's powerful to have a narrative where homeowners and landlords are vulnerable and the victims in these situations.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When a lot of the times, especially in New York, renters are talking about getting back their power, right, that renters don't have power.
--:-- Bridget Reed: So in that sense, squatting becomes this really impactful story where a homeowner is being menaced by tenants who can run amok.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think it taps into a really deep fear, whether you're a homeowner or not, of someone coming into your space and doing something violent to you, doing something violent to the property.
--:-- Bridget Reed: But I think on the other side, it also taps into the housing crisis that we do have, where some people don't have housing at all and are, you know, living in an empty space.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Right.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And for homeowners who have to live with someone that they tried to kick out.
--:-- Bridget Reed: I mean, it's a horrible situation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And, you know, the cases I've covered can be incredibly damaging.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Bridget Reed, she's with Curbed. Curbed is with New York Magazine.
--:-- Bridget Reed: Read her work at Curbed.com. The Politics of Squatting, featuring Ron DeSantis, ahead on Today Explained.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You swipe your card and you get one cent on the hundred dollars.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today is going to be explained to you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm David Weigel, and I'm a political reporter at Semaphore.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And tell us, David, how did you come across a story or several stories about squatting?
--:-- David Weigel: Well, I read a lot of conservative media, which is the driver on a lot of public policy, frankly.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I noticed in a number of states, New York first, but then Florida, Georgia, there were stories of squatters, people living in houses that they didn't own or didn't have the right to rent, and then responses by Republican politicians.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But it started with me just noticing that there was a lot of coverage of this in places like the New York Post and Fox News.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it was not trickling over to, let's say, the New York Times, the other big paper in New York, or CNN, the other competitor on cable.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And as far as the New York Post is concerned, I also saw this article about this viral TikTok.
--:-- David Weigel: My people, I thought to invade a house in Yunei State.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: where this guy's basically promising presumably immigrants that they can come to the United States and just inhabit someone's house and take it over.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Squadding has gone on for a very long time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: These recent stories of people staying on property and refusing to leave really pop up around the country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But what turned it into an immigration story was indeed this Venezuelan asylum seeker, TikToker, Leonel Moreno, who I was not aware of until I started looking at squatting, but apparently had a big following.
--:-- David Weigel: Like many TikTokers, leans obnoxiously into the camera, shouts in a high-pitched voice, talks about ways to take advantage of the system.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My people, I have thought about invading a house in the United States because I learned there's a law that says if a house is not inhabited, we can expropriate it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And in this case, he was talking about how migrants could move into homes that no one was paying attention to, get squatters' rights, and then stay there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think that will be my next business.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Invade abandoned houses.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There weren't reports of people doing this after the TikTok.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There only were, and this is very common with TikTok-based stories, there were only a lot of stories of people reacting to him.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A Venezuelan national dubbed the migrant influencers at the center of controversy this morning, he has been using TikTok to coach migrants how to live in the U.S. by taking advantage of laws protecting squatters.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That fed into something that was already shifting really fast on conservative media.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It wasn't just that there were cases of people having their homes taken from out from under them in New York and Georgia and California and Florida.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was that this migrant TikToker, who, again, most people reading this story hadn't heard of before they clicked, was saying, hey, take advantage of this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, as an American citizen, you may not be able to afford to buy a home, But just know the 10 million plus illegals Biden has let in will not lose a wink of sleep as they steal, plunder and pillage what you have worked for.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so this is not a fake story, but that created the impression that this was taking the nation by storm.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is something that might be coming to your town.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then what happens?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, states start passing bills.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In Florida, the story more than a year ago was Patty Peoples, a woman who owns rental property in Jacksonville, went to check it out.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And squatters were living in it, claiming they had the right to be there, being very rude with her.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Your police report states this is under investigation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So with that being said, we don't have to leave anything until the police comes back and tell us what would be the decision.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I have every right to be in this house.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You don't have every right to be in the house at all.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I do, ma'am.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You do not.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: She filmed herself interacting with the squatters, got local attention, and that was the story in Florida for quite a long time.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I own the house.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's been a year since Patty Peoples found strangers had moved into her rental property.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They refused to leave, and it was Peoples who was banned from the premises as the case spent weeks moving through civil court.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In Florida, this bill inspired by Patty Peoples' work passes unanimously.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It gives me a real feeling of positive hope that we still have the ability to discuss challenges in our society and work with our legislatures in a bipartisan way.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Ron DeSantis signs it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We are in the state of Florida ending the squatter scam once and for all.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The signing ceremony was like a lot of DeSantis events where he comes out.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Good afternoon.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Good afternoon.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's great to be back here in central Florida.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I want to thank.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There are legislators and Republicans in the audience invited to be there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Patty Peeples pointed out that she was sitting next to the Orange County Republican Party fundraiser for Florida.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he brought special guests to talk about how, unlike some weak governors, DeSantis was acting on something that could be a problem.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In places like New York and California, that's exactly what's happening in this country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Homes are being invaded.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And those states and their laws are not siding with the homeowners, they're siding with the squatters.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One of the stars he brought in that surprised people is Flash Shelton this Californian who calls himself the squatter hunter and helps people with problems getting unpaying tenants off their property to navigate the law to show up to draw attention to their case
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: My fight to change squatter laws started one year ago, and I will not stop fighting until squatter laws are changed from coast to coast and homeowners are free from their squatters.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He had not acted in Florida, but DeSantis brought him there.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And he was pretty typical of the way squatting is often covered, not as here's a problem for the government to act on, but here's a nightmare that happened to this family.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Could it happen to you?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In Georgia, legislation's moving.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: In New York, legislation's moving.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's different in each state.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So at one factual point that drives a lot of the New York coverage is that New York City has fairly generous renter's rights.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so if you are in a property for more than 30 days, it takes a court order to remove you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is the thing that changed in Florida, where now if somebody's in a property, a homeowner with a deed comes up and says, I need them out, cops can just remove them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They don't need a court order.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's not the law in New York.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And that is what becomes sort of the policy focus of these stories.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I think the reason that these are so attractive as stories is they have that feature of something horrible happening that it's easy to imagine happening to you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is an old nightmare.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You can find movies like Pacific Heights where squatters take advantage of somebody and take their lives from out from under them.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's changed the locks.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You changed the f***ing locks!
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You add to that the social media factor and how it looks like anyone can do it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You add to that the policy that New York has.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And this is a great local news story, local TV news story.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm not saying that in a patronizing way.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It is a dramatic story.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's the kind that people with cameras filming things live get incredible footage taping that feeds into the conservative media framework.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The New York Post is often the assignment desk of Fox News, same corporate owner, which goes around the country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One thing I saw while tracking coverage of squatting was that you could see people resharing these videos all across the country.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You could see them sharing them on social media worrying that this would happen.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One of the first clues I had that this was catching on was that I was covering the South Carolina primary in February.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I was talking to Congressman Ralph Norman and a resident of a retirement community that he was campaigning in came up to him and wanted to interrupt our conversation, which I let him do.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's a constituent.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He's allowed to because he wanted to know what he was doing to stop the squatters.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So these stories were going viral in places where people were not immediately at threat of being squatted or had not heard of anything happening like that locally.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And we've been talking about these laws being a big deal in conservative media, but are they getting bipartisan support in these states?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Yes, there's really not any partisan opposition to it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Now, most of the advocacy you'll hear, most of the surveys that are designed to prove that squatting is up or that there's a trend, they are from landlord organizations.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: One reason I think some media outlets, I can't read their minds, didn't jump on this is because it is hard to track.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is this a trend that is rising around the country or is this a fake trend because there's a lot of interesting footage of this happening you ask the same question are there are there more people stealing packages or there are more doorbell cameras so we see people stealing them and put them on the news it's one of those questions but there's not a partisan organization no lobbying organization for squatters or for people just staying in homes that they don't pay for there are some movements around letting people stay in abandoned houses but that's not what this is.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Does this squatting incident, this brief squatting panic we've had in the United States these past few months, in an election year, teach us anything about how some viral video can become an issue that actually leads to legislation being passed?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'd say for some people, this is how legislating should work.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The fourth estate draws attention to a problem.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Legislators who weren't aware of the problem act on it, and everyone walks away happy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is the case in Florida.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was a Democrat in Florida who drew attention to this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was a Republican state legislator who saw it on Fox and wanted to act on it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And then it was a unanimous legislature that voted for it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So this is how a lot of legislation passes.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: People become aware of the problem and they act.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I see more happy endings than I see partisan rancor on this.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Even though this didn't germinate in progressive media or NPR or something like that, no one had a problem with it when the attention was drawn to it.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was just the difference really was who saw this as a nightmare that they wish didn't happen to them, who saw it as a public policy issue to fix.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That was the difference between, I think, this being covered as a nightmare lifestyle magazine story, as you've seen in the past, and being covered on local TV news.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So local TV news drawing attention to something and people acting, that is how a lot of legislating happens.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's David Weigel, politics, semaphore.com.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our show today was produced by Avishay Artsy.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was fact-checked by Laura Bullard.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It was mixed by David Herman and edited by Matt Collette with help from Amina Al-Sadi.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I'm Sean Rameswaram, and this is Today Explained.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Thank you.
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