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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Welcome to Today Explained. I'm Sean Rameswaram.
--:-- Noel King: And I'm Noel King.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: After 50 days of the Israel-Hamas war, both sides took a breather to save lives. And it couldn't have happened without Qatar.
--:-- Noel King: That's right. Qatar's been playing a key role in the hostage negotiations between Israel and Hamas. We're going to explore that today.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, let's start with the basics. What happened over the weekend?
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: It was a very big weekend for the war between Israel and Hamas, but for the first time in 50 days of fighting, it wasn't because of killing. Old ladies were being saved. Little kids were being saved. Push, push, push, push. Palestinian prisoners were coming home. Thai farmers were going home.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: That's Tia Goldenberg, an Associated Press reporter based in Tel Aviv. She joined us this morning for the latest on these hostage deals.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: We started with October 7th. So at 6:30 in the morning on October 7th, slowly reports come in that hundreds of Hamas militants have blasted their way out of the Gaza Strip and have rampaged through communities in southern Israel. Harrowing images we are seeing on social media of bodies, both Israeli civilians and soldiers in the streets.
--:-- Noel King: And they've gone door to door, essentially, in these quiet communal farming communities and have either killed people, there are about at least 1,200 people killed, and they take 240 people captive.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: There are both Israeli soldiers and Israeli civilians who have been taken captive inside of Israel and then taken back over the border into Gaza. And they are now in captivity under the control of Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad inside of Gaza.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're talking about men, women, children, the elderly, hostages as young as nine months old and as old as, you know, late 80s.
--:-- Noel King: And they're dragged into Gaza by golf cart, by motorcycle, by car, by foot.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: And this sets off the war that we're currently seeing. And does negotiation for their release begin immediately?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The negotiations, according to our reports, begin shortly after. Not quite immediately, but shortly after.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: And they're moderated by primarily Qatar, Egypt, and the United States.
--:-- Noel King: And they pretty much two weeks into the war really kick into high gear.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: And they've been working on this current truce since then. And it's come up in various iterations that either side has either, you know, pulled back from or rejected.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But it was accepted last week on Wednesday and that's what set off the current deal to get started on Friday.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: So Hamas and Israel agreed to a four-day truce. That would mean neither side is fighting. Israeli jets are not striking. Hamas is not firing rockets.
--:-- Noel King: In exchange for 50 hostages, 150 Palestinian prisoners, including some women and teenagers, will be released by Israel.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: The Red Cross will be given access to the hostages still held, while humanitarian aid will get to the people of Gaza, three to four hundred trucks a day, and fuel.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On the side of this deal were deals negotiated by Thailand, which has a significant amount of its citizens who are working here who were also taken captive.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: And it turns out that Russia also had a deal to release a dual Israeli-Russian citizen.
--:-- Noel King: What do we know about who's been freed so far?
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: We're speaking 8 a.m. Monday morning East Coast time. So there have been three batches of hostage releases since Friday.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We're talking about women and children primarily. They've mostly been released in kind of family batches.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: So you've had a mother, a grandmother, and a nine-year-old who were freed altogether. You've had two sisters freed together.
--:-- Noel King: There was a four-year-old Israeli-American. She was actually three when she was taken captive, and she recently celebrated her fourth birthday in captivity.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: Abigail ran to her dad then, who then was gunned down, gunned down as well, while using his body to shield little Abigail.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And as I said, you've also seen Thai foreign nationals who were released, a Filipino caretaker who was living at one of these communal farms released.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: And so in exchange for all of these hostages Israel agreed to release about 150 Palestinians who are imprisoned in its jails Israel imprisons about 7 Palestinians that it considers security prisoners
--:-- Noel King: Now, as part of the deal, Israel agreed to release people who are in prison for mostly minor offenses.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: We're talking rock throwing. We're talking vague charges like terrorism affiliation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: What condition were all of these hostages in, from the Israelis to the Palestinians to the Thais, the Filipino, the American?
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: So in terms of the details about the hostages' conditions, the hostages have been largely kept away from the public eye, but details are starting to emerge.
--:-- Noel King: They've come out mostly in good physical condition, except for one woman who is being treated in hospital now for life-threatening issues that doctors say is because she wasn't treated properly in Gaza.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The families of the hostages are saying they were kept in something like a reception room or a reception area.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: They used plastic chairs and pushed them together for beds They were given meager amounts of food like bread and rice.
--:-- Noel King: And in some cases, some of the children came back and told their relatives that they were told to whisper and keep quiet.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I spoke to a nephew of one of the hostages released who said that his aunt had to readjust to sunlight because she had been underground for so long and couldn't get used to that amount of light.
--:-- Noel King: In terms of the Palestinian prisoners, Israel keeps these prisoners in jails where their conditions are, Israel says, humane.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: The Palestinians say that this isn't the case, that there's accusations that Israel during interrogations, for instance, treats them inhumanely.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Israel also uses this tactic called administrative detention, which allows it to hold prisoners without charge or due process.
--:-- Noel King: Which means you have people languishing in jail for an indeterminate amount of time based on intelligence that isn't publicly available.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: So you know all of the prisoners came out looking good in good physical condition but obviously there's criticism about the way Israel holds its its prisoners.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We haven't actually heard too much from from the Thais yet at this point either.
--:-- Noel King: They're also in Israeli hospitals and are being sent back to Thailand.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Obviously there's going to be more negotiation about further hostage releases.
--:-- Noel King: Do we know how many hostages remain and when they're going to get exchanged?
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: Well, as part of this current deal, Israel and Hamas both left open the door to extend the truce.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Israel says it'll hold fire for 24 hours, so long as Hamas releases 10 hostages a day.
--:-- Noel King: We know that after this current truce and the hostage releases, as well as some previous releases that were just, were minor.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: There are now about 175 hostages still in Gaza.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And initially there were 240.
--:-- Noel King: The people that remain, we don't know the exact figure.
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: Hamas isn't saying who it's held. It isn't saying how many children.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And there are still some people that Israel considers missing, that it doesn't know whether they're in Gaza or dead.
--:-- Noel King: The estimation is there are about 40 children that Hamas and other militant groups held.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: A chunk of those have been released in this exchange, but there may still be more.
--:-- Noel King: There are women, there are young adults who are attending the music festival in southern Israel that got overrun by Hamas on October 7th.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There are soldiers who are seen by Hamas as a key, key bargaining chip with Israel.
--:-- Noel King: And there are still elderly men and some elderly women who remain.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know, I've seen videos of hostages on both sides of this war being paraded through the streets like rock stars.
--:-- Noel King: People are cheering. There's motorcades. There's waving of Israeli flags.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: On the other side, there's waving of Hamas flags.
--:-- Noel King: Does this exchange help Hamas politically?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And on the other side, does it help Benjamin Netanyahu politically?
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: Israel and Hamas have engaged in prisoner swaps in the past.
--:-- Noel King: Hamas has taken, famously in 2006, took the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit captive for five years and exchanged him for about a thousand Palestinians imprisoned in Israel.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Not all Palestinians support Hamas, of course, but Palestinians cherish the people who are being held by Israel.
--:-- Noel King: They're seen as heroes. They're seen as fighting Israel's occupation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And for Hamas to achieve their release, which is essentially seen as the only way to get them out of Israeli prisons, that does bolster how Palestinians view Hamas in the West Bank and in Gaza.
--:-- Noel King: In terms of Benjamin Netanyahu, Israelis are overwhelmingly behind freeing the hostages.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They were deeply scarred by what happened on October 7th and it's become a big rallying cry for Israelis to have all of the hostages freed.
--:-- Noel King: But when it comes to Benjamin Netanyahu, it's complicated.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: He was mired in criticism before the war started and since the war started his approval rating has just plummeted.
--:-- Noel King: So freeing the hostages this doesn't necessarily help Benjamin Netanyahu, who was struggling politically before in any case.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But it does give Israelis a little bit more confidence in their security establishment that they can achieve the goals of this war.
--:-- Noel King: And of course, one of those stated goals, I think there's only two of them. One is get the hostages back.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: The other is destroy Hamas.
--:-- Noel King: But you just told us that this is seen as a huge win for Palestinians, that Hamas got all of these Palestinians back.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How do you think that factored into the calculation here for the people negotiating this ceasefire and this hostage exchange for Qatar?
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: I think that there was no way these hostages could stay in there much longer
--:-- Noel King: And I don't think Israel took that too much into account
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Its stated goal is to destroy Hamas
--:-- Noel King: And so I don't think Israeli negotiators care very much what this does to Palestinian public opinion
--:-- Tia Goldenberg: They want Hamas destroyed as their next step or eventual final step in this war.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so it was crucial for Israel to free the hostages, regardless of what that meant for Hamas's position.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Around noon, we got news that Israel and Hamas had agreed to extend their ceasefire for another two days.
--:-- Noel King: That news, of course, came from Qatari mediators.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Qatar, when we're back on Today Explained.
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--:-- Noel King: These days, it seems like everybody has a rewards program.
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--:-- Noel King: But with your rent, frequently, you just pay month after month.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You never get anything from it other than that roof over your head.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Built Rewards says it lets you earn points on your rent.
--:-- Noel King: By paying rent through Built, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed toward hundreds of hotels and airlines.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Today explained, Ramis Verum, the most important player in these hostage negotiations, has been Qatar, who you might best remember from last year's World Cup.
--:-- Noel King: We wanted to find out how they became the hostage negotiation VIP, so we got in touch with Joel Simon.
--:-- Joel Simon: I'm the founding director of the Journalism Protection Initiative at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Before he ended up there, Joel spent 25 years at the Committee to Protect Journalists.
--:-- Noel King: And unfortunately, kidnapping is an occupational hazard for journalists.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So Joel has spent decades thinking about hostages and hostage negotiation.
--:-- Noel King: He's written a book about it, and he just wrote about Qatar's role in this war for the New Yorker.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: We asked him if people should be surprised to see Qatar at the center of these negotiations between Israel and Hamas.
--:-- Joel Simon: I don't think they should be surprised if they've followed the hostage issue.
--:-- Noel King: And I admit we're a pretty small subset of people who think about this and look at this regularly.
--:-- Joel Simon: But the reality is that Qatar has been playing this role for, you know, 20 years.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Every time there's kidnapping in, certainly in the Middle East, you know, the conduit for trying to negotiate the release was often through Doha in Qatar.
--:-- Joel Simon: So, you know, they've sort of seen this as part of a broader strategy of having relationships and being able to talk to all parties.
--:-- Noel King: But, you know, they've been at the center of this for decades now, and they've been kind of developing their capabilities and building the relationships that are necessary to, you know, achieve success.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: How did they become, you know, positioned at the center of hostage negotiation?
--:-- Joel Simon: Qatar has sort of, as a kind of strategy to increase security from their perspective and gain influence and visibility in what they consider to be a volatile region, has sort of adopted this posture of active neutrality.
--:-- Noel King: You could sort of call it that.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And it's sort of, you could think of it as like, or they think of it, you know, as kind of the Switzerland of the Gulf.
--:-- Joel Simon: In Qatar's case, the defense is really the fact that it hosts one of the largest U.S. military bases in the Middle East.
--:-- Noel King: And so that gives it a kind of strong disincentive for regional adversaries to get too aggressive.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And at the same time, what it tries to do is sort of position itself to have relationships with all parties.
--:-- Joel Simon: So it has a relationship with Iran.
--:-- Noel King: It's had relationships or the ability to communicate, certainly.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And some have alleged active support for jihadi groups that have been active in Syria and Iraq.
--:-- Joel Simon: It had relationships with the Taliban in Afghanistan.
--:-- Noel King: So when there were kidnapping and hostage taking carried out by the Taliban or the Haqqani network, which is associated with the Taliban in Afghanistan, the Qataris were the conduit through which you could resolve these cases.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they were very willing to play this role because it was consistent with their strategic vision and their sense that by having relationships with all parties, they could better protect their own security.
--:-- Noel King: And obviously, now that there is a deal, Qatar gets to be something of a hero.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But this took weeks upon weeks and thousands upon thousands of Gazans died in the interim
--:-- Joel Simon: Oh I think we really can pin that on the Qataris at all
--:-- Noel King: You know depending on you know the version of the accounts that you hear
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: You know there was a deal in place on October 23rd
--:-- Joel Simon: And I would say, based on my reporting, the Qataris were on this from day one.
--:-- Noel King: It's obviously an extremely complicated undertaking.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And, you know, it was really, I mean, there's some dispute over who blew up the deal, but it blew up on October 25th.
--:-- Joel Simon: My Qatari sources, you know, kind of say that the Israelis were more intransigent.
--:-- Noel King: The final demand, they had a tentative deal in place to release 50 hostages.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And the final demand, and by the way, that deal did not involve the release of prisoners, Palestinian prisoners.
--:-- Joel Simon: And it also did not involve a firm agreement for a ceasefire.
--:-- Noel King: It was more of an understanding that there would be a pause in hostilities to allow the transfer of hostages.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So if you look at it from that perspective, it was actually a better deal for the Israelis.
--:-- Noel King: But the Israelis had a final demand, and that was that they wanted a list of all the hostages that would be released or that were being held.
--:-- Joel Simon: And the Hamas representative, the political representative who was leading the negotiation in Doha basically said, that's going to take time.
--:-- Noel King: These hostages are scattered. Some are held by different groups and we need to pause in the hostilities in order to be able to collect those names and provide them to you.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Well, the Israelis interpreted this as a stalling tactic and they said, no deal.
--:-- Joel Simon: This was October 25th
--:-- Noel King: And literally within hours of that deal collapsing, the Israelis began the ground invasion and the disruption in communication.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: So, you know, the Israelis made a decision at that point that, you know, they were going to proceed with the military operation.
--:-- Joel Simon: And, you know, it took weeks and weeks for the hostage negotiations to get back on track.
--:-- Noel King: So it seems here being at the center of this international negotiation that the whole world is watching right now can really serve to benefit and shore up the Qatari reputation.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Is that a cynical thing to say?
--:-- Joel Simon: I don't think it's cynical at all.
--:-- Noel King: I mean, I think that's, you know, states operate based on state interests.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: When I talk to my Qatari contacts, you know, they stress the humanitarian aspect of this.
--:-- Joel Simon: And I'm sure that that plays a role, certainly for the people who are involved directly in the negotiation, you know, and supporting it.
--:-- Noel King: That's very satisfying to feel you're serving a humanitarian purpose.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: But that's not what guides states.
--:-- Joel Simon: States are guided by state interests.
--:-- Noel King: And you have to sort of probe and ask yourself, you know, why would a state do this?
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I do believe that the Qataris have used different strategies to increase their visibility and influence around the world.
--:-- Joel Simon: These include things like subsidizing Al Jazeera, the regional broadcast Arabic language network that's based in Doha and is supported by the Qatari government.
--:-- Noel King: They've also, of course, hosted international sporting events like the World Cup.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And they've spread their money all over the world.
--:-- Joel Simon: And so they're always looking for strategies that increase their visibility and influence.
--:-- Noel King: And, you know, they're also involved.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: There's a history of regional tensions.
--:-- Joel Simon: And so they perceive their ability, you know, it's being useful, as one of the people I talked to for the New Yorker article described it to me, you know, being useful to great powers, being not just useful, but in some cases indispensable.
--:-- Noel King: You know, for a small country, that's a pretty good position to be in.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It's interesting to think about this country being friends with everybody.
--:-- Joel Simon: And what that would entail right now is being friends with both Hamas and Israel at a time where there couldn't be more enmity between those two groups.
--:-- Noel King: Yeah, well, I mean, that's what mediation is all about.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And I mean, I should point out that, you know, hostage taking is a cruel crime.
--:-- Joel Simon: And because I've been reporting on it for so many years, I've spoken to many people who've been taken hostage.
--:-- Noel King: I've spoken to the families, many, many, many families.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: It is truly a devastating experience.
--:-- Joel Simon: It's also a violation of international humanitarian law.
--:-- Noel King: But, you know, what I've seen over time is that it's such a horrible crime that governments engage in a kind of posturing.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They say, we will not negotiate. We don't negotiate with terrorists.
--:-- Joel Simon: They get all, you know, kind of aggressive militarily and they say we're going to rescue the hostages or we're going to solve this problem through military means.
--:-- Noel King: But the reality is hostage crisis are not solved by sloganeering.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: They're not solved by, you know, military efforts, except in very rare occasions.
--:-- Joel Simon: They're solved by negotiation.
--:-- Noel King: That's how these hostage crises are resolved.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: And so you need a reliable interlocutor.
--:-- Joel Simon: They're talking to each other through intermediaries in order to resolve this crisis.
--:-- Noel King: It gives some glimmer of hope that that dialogue can lead to something deeper and more lasting that would somehow reduce the level of violence.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: I don't know if that's possible, but, you know, I do think that there's some glimmer of hope which might not have existed before this deal was done.
--:-- Joel Simon: Joel Simon is the author of We Want to Negotiate the Secret World of Kidnapping, Hostages, and Ransom.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Find it wherever you find your books.
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--:-- Sean Rameswaram: Our program today was produced by Victoria Chamberlain and Isabel Angel.
--:-- Noel King: They had help from Amina Al-Sadi, Laura Bullard, Amanda Llewellyn, Patrick Boyd, and Rob Byers.
--:-- Sean Rameswaram: This is Today Explained.
--:-- Noel King: We'll see you next time.
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